BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?

Subject: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stu
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 10:15 AM

So... I've been thinking about nationalism in all it's various guises and forms and have come to the conclusion that it is a bad thing; it's divisive, isolationist, exclusive and too easy to corrupt with patriotism and flag waving. I think that as a species we need to move away from nationalistic politics and embrace our global citizenship. That's not to say we should abandon our cultures and traditions as these help give us identity, but choose to exist in a world where the lines drawn on maps are less important that the people who choose to live in that land.


Or am I wrong?




*I don't have any particular country in mind, I'm more interested in a philosophical discussion of nationalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 10:32 AM

So.....what do you think of the fact that a large majority of SNP supporters voted "remain" in the recent referendum?

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stu
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 10:53 AM

That a large number of SNP supporters want to remain in the EU?

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 11:16 AM

There's a big difference between nationalism and patriotism. Nationalism seeks to promote a nation to the disadvantage of other nations. Patriotism seeks to promote the welfare of one's own nation and community - not necessarily to the disadvantage of others.
The SNP (Scottish National Party) certainly seeks to promote the well-being of Scotland - by pushing for it to remain in the European community of nations, despite England's more isolationalist stance.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 11:24 AM

Most SNP supporters are Nationalists..... I don't see any of the divisiveness, isolationism, or exclusivity that Stu was waffling on about.    Lack of political acumen perhaps :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stanron
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 11:26 AM

Joe Offer wrote: despite England's more isolationalist stance

We've been here before but some of us who voted for Brexit see being in the Eu as being isolated from the more vigorous economies in the rest of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 11:30 AM

"Patriotism, n. - Combustible rubbish ready to the torch of any one ambitious to illuminate his name. In Dr. Johnson's famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I beg to submit it is the first."

          ― Ambrose Bierce

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 11:39 AM

Maybe it'st's not so much whether "Nationalism" as a concept is good or bad per se..

It's just that most [all?] Nationalists I have ever encountered tend to be rather unpleasant bigoted reactionary folks who make me feel very wary.....

I have yet to meet any nationalists who are objective fair minded pleasant people.....????? 😐

Hello.... where are you.....

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 11:52 AM

In general, I would says that patriotism and nationalism have more-or-less the same meaning, but patriotism has good implications and nationalism has bad ones.

---

Ake sez: Most SNP supporters are Nationalists.
I think that from my observations, I'd say that Most SNP supporters are patriots with a view that is open to the world.

---

Stanron says: some of us who voted for Brexit see being in the Eu as being isolated from the more vigorous economies in the rest of the world.
I'm sure that's so, but I would think that to be the view of a small minority of those who voted for Brexit. The most vocal pro-Brexit voters, were nationalists and isolationists who fear immigration and don't want to contribute to the welfare of poorer EU members in hope of strengthening all of Europe.

The Brexit vote results made Scotland look pretty good, and they made England look almost as nationalistic and isolationist as the U.S. appears to be.

I'm sure the majority of Mudcatters from all nations, are not isolationist or nationalistic; but most Mudcatters run against the tide of their own nations.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 12:25 PM

Joe, SNP stands for Scottish National Party, Members and supporters (of whom I am one) define themselves as "Nationalists".

With regard to....."objective fair minded pleasant people.....?????"
What better example than myself? :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 12:36 PM

Well joe , I don't know how many who voted leave were "isolationists that feared immigration...don't want to contribute ..poorer members.." But I suspect that all of us who voted leave did not want to contribute to padding the fat cats at the top , or other wasted money.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 01:11 PM

In general, I would says that patriotism and nationalism have more-or-less the same meaning,

Not hardly.

but patriotism has good implications

See A. Bierce, above, also:

"Patriotism, though it is based upon the natural and indeed instinctive love of home, has been elevated in the modern world into an unparalleled congeries of imbecilities. What it demands of the individual citizen, as a practical matter, is that he yield not only his judgement but also his property and even his life to whatever gang of scheming politicians happen to be in power. The essence of his virtue as a patriot is that he ask no questions, once the band is set to playing. - H.L. Mencken

and nationalism has bad ones.

See also "jingoism" and "nativism".

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 01:36 PM

As Joe said, patriotism and nationalism refer to the same thing, but seen differently. The same as describing someone as firm, obstinate or pigheaded. Or relaxed as against idle.

Whether you call it nationalism or patriotism, the crucial test is whether you recognise that it should imply respecting it in other peoples. If you're against democratic secession from your own country, your nationalism/ patriotism is a bad thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 01:45 PM

I'm agin it.

I understand that cooperation among group members makes the group stronger. I also understand that competition between groups *also* makes both groups stronger... so Us v. Them is bred in the bone, if you will.

Somehow we need to unite and have Them be the uncivilized, not the people who belong to arbitrarily-defined groups to which you don't subscribe.

NO element of "we're better than they are" based on group membership is OK, it *must* be based on actual behavior.

So no, America isn't necessarily great, but, say, getting Nixon to resign was a great thing for America to have done.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 01:48 PM

Ake - 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stu
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 02:12 PM

"but patriotism has good implications"

I disagree, but would welcome examples. Patriotism is tribalistic and largely unquestioning in nature and reinforces the idea that the patriot's country is superior to others, right or wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: michaelr
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 02:33 PM

Patriotism (or nationalism; I think they're pretty much two names for one thing) is the mistaken and dangerous notion that the geographical accident of one's birth somehow has greater worth than membership in the human race.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 02:42 PM

Joe please remember when talking about the foolishness of Brexit that the USA would never have entertained the idea of joining such a single market or would ever have contemplated surrendering to any degree whatsoever sovereignty or any part of the decision making process to anyone else.

I can see nothing wrong at all with "patriotism" on the other hand I do not think that "nationalism" has any redeeming features whatsoever:

British National Party
National Socialist German Workers' Party

Are but two examples.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 04:01 PM

National Health Service

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 04:51 PM

And how would it be any different if those two oraganisations Teribus cited had called themselves the British Patriot Party, or the Patriotic German Socialist German Workers' Party? Except we'd have called the latter "Pazies", pronounced "patsies", which would have made them sound even sillier.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 01:36 AM

"IF" Kevin?? If my Aunt had balls she'd be my Uncle.

Cannot really see how a nation wide service delivering healthcare and medical services to the sick and injured can in any way equate to a political party that might be elected to office where it would then direct national policy governing every aspect of the lives of the entire population - there again Kevin you always have been good at comparing apples to oranges.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: BobL
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 03:15 AM

Humanity's animal instincts lead it to divide others into "them" and "us", not necessarily with any meaningful boundary. This may have been useful habit at one stage of our evolution, but now we need to rise above it (and some other instinctive behaviour) through conscious choice. Patriotism/nationalism harnesses this divisive instinct on a national scale, but at its worst is just collective selfishness.

Incidentally, patriotism may be defined as "love of one's country", but in this context what do we mean by "love"? What do we mean by "country"? I take "love" to be that which leads us to prefer another's advantage to our own. And "country" is, for me at least and in this case, not the geographical area where I happen to have been born and now live, but the political entity of which I am legally a citizen and upon whose actions I have some slight influence through voice and vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 03:44 AM

As society changes to take account of different conditions, like climate change, lack of recourses, inability to be "competitive" etc, IMO we shall find it expedient to operate in smaller units, one reason that I was so enthusiastic about leaving the EU.

It is the duty of the government of any country to work in the best interests of the electorate of that country.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 03:45 AM

"Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness toward anyone..."   Edith Cavell, awaiting execution by firing squad by the Germans.

Having been influenced by Post War propaganda, the Girl Guides ethos and the views of my parents regarding Patriotism, I used to be ardently patriotic, thinking Britain (or even just England) was the very best place on Earth and I was blessed to have been born there. This attitude continued until relatively recently in my life, when I slowly began to see the wider picture, and as BobL suggests, I began to 'evolve'.

I think having travelled widely among very different cultures to my own, and having acquired a non-British husband, plus having thought deeply for a change about my opinions and standpoints on various matters (I do feel many people don't actually think through their views) I have come to the conclusion that Patriotism is a very narrow and 'exclusive' way to think.

I do love my country in the sense that I love the climate, the seasons, the green fields and the wide variety of traditions, accents and customs etc. I love our long and varied history. But I've actually learned to try and love all peoples, and not to see any as superior/inferior or less or more worthy.

Patriotism is the same as (or very close to) Nationalism, Chauvinism and by definition Arrogance. It can engender despising, aggression, refusal to consider other points of view and (as Edith Cavell perceived) in the end give rise to hatred. All very dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 03:52 AM

"Nationalism seeks to promote a nation to the disadvantage of other nations."

But Joe that is surely far too narrow a definition of the word nationalism? My Concise Oxford Dictionary gives two main definitions.

The first definition states that it means having patriotic feelings or principles with an addendum stating that in extreme forms it can turn into chauvinism. As far as Scotland is concerned both sides in the independence debate had patriotic feelings and principles and on both sides a small minority displayed chauvinism.

The second definition is simply believing in national independence. For instance would you really say that in the dying days of the Soviet empire that Estonian or Latvian nationalists wanted to promote their nation to the disadvantage of others? Surely they only wanted to take their place along side other nations?

So nationalism has various meanings but yes the SNP and other members of the Yes movement in Scotland mostly think of themselves as nationalists - but at the same time most would baulk at being compared to chauvinistic nationalists like the BNP etc.

There was a tiny vehemently anti-English grouping within the SNP (Siol nan Gaidheal- Seed of the Gael) but they were expelled from the party in the 1970s and are completely irrelevant within Scotland itself. They try to promote themselves online as a cultural group mostly to the North American diaspora. They are complete nobodies and would probably be hard pressed to fill a few minibuses.

The Yes movement as a whole, and the SNP, like to describe themselves as Civic Nationalists. That is they believe Scotland should be an independent nation but that they should be outward looking and welcoming regardless of people's ethnicity, religion, colour etc. The idea is that being Scottish is not just based on parentage, ethnicity or place of birth. It is also based on residence. So sure some nationalist Scottish people may disagree but when the SNP talk about the people of Scotland they are talking about everyone legally living in Scotland.

This was most recently expressed by the First Minister at the recent opening of the new session of the Scottish Parliament which was shortly after the Brexit vote.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFgHQOHqKRg

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 08:55 AM

There are plenty of people and organisatiins who are viciously hostile to anything or person who is foreign who happily describe themselves as patriots and patriotic. In the same way there are nationalists and nationalist organisations who are the reverse.

What matters isn't which word you use, but what beliefs and practices you attach to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 08:55 AM

It works for the children and adults of France, Germany, Finland and Slovenia.

Watch 'Where to invade next'

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 10:44 AM

There is in fact an organisation called the "Patriotic Socialist Party" in Britain. If it had called itself the National Socialist Party it might have given a more accurate indication of its politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Lanfranc
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 07:24 PM

Let's imagine a culture where nationalism and patriotism are both subordinate to faith, where allegiance to an imagined deity and obedience to an iron age code are cruelly enforced, where any democratically enacted laws may be ignored and where any alternative belief system is suppressed.

Would this be preferable?

Coming soon to a free country near you, in fact it's here now, just not yet completely dominant.

Be careful what you wish for.

Alan

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 08:44 PM

Well I was born in t'gritty north-west of England. I could count forty-nine factory chimbleys from t'bedroom window in my house, two up two down with outside brick shithouse. Our house had cracks in the walls due to subsidence from t'pit under th' 'ouse (this is all perfectly true, by the way, none of your "aye, but we 'ad it tough!" stuff). My mum and dad insulated us from the hardships and we had a great childhood (especially when it was going down the Irwell on long summer evenings to chuck stones at the rats!). When I was a bit older I worked on the Parks and got to know some real gritty blokes who had dead-end jobs, amazing facility when it came to swearing in a northern accent, and a ton of dignity. So I have a great affection for that part of the world. It was the blood, sweat and tears of northern England that drove the industrial revolution, made this country rich and started the cult of the fatcat with a sense of entitlement. I love it and defend it to the hilt, and I go back every couple of months, but I'm not going to live there again. Dunno whether you'd call that patriotism, but I'm not having any old gobshite dissing the north of England.

I go to Italy and Spain a lot for my (budget I hasten to add) holidays these days. I'm a bit sad that a lot of Italians don't seem to value what they've got in their amazing country. In both countries I find the people to be incredibly friendly and helpful, especially in the poorer bits in the south. They're just like me, wanting to make an honest living, not particularly wanting to get rich by fleecing people. I can scarcely do their languages at all (typical ignorant British git), but I never feel foreign in either country. They're just people, just like me. So I don't get this nationalism malarkey. Of course you want your own patch to be as nice as possible. But that doesn't mean you can't see the same aspiration in everybody else the world over. I like distinctness and I hate it when I see a McDonalds in Almería or in Sicily. But that's a bit irrational in this global village of ours. It's a good job that McDonalds isn't any good, otherwise it would sound a bit imperialistic too.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stu
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 05:34 AM

...such a single market or would ever have contemplated surrendering to any degree whatsoever sovereignty or any part of the decision making process to anyone else."

Which the sort of nationalist sentiment that caused Brexit; an inability to co-operate and take decisions jointly for the common good.



"It was the blood, sweat and tears of northern England that drove the industrial revolution"

Parochialist nonsense, on par with nationalist propagandist bullshit. The industrial revolution was driven by the labours of millions across the country, not in any single region. Ever been to Birmingham? The valleys?

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 05:52 AM

This is such a knotty problem to disentangle isn't it? I've been giving this topic some thought (old brain cells creaking a bit) and I can't get it sorted out. I too love the area in which I live. I love all the cliches about Britain. (Accents, traditions, castles, cathedrals, gardens, cuisine etc) I do miss old Blighty when I'm abroad. But I also love the multicultural side of the UK. I love seeing people in different dress, new shops selling unusual food from other lands, hearing different languages spoken, and learning about Diwali, Eid and so on. If I were Nationalist, I suppose I'd be growling at all these things? And wanting to 'send them all home'? 'Not British, harrumph' etc? I certainly don't do that.

And when I'm in W Africa, I love it there too. And growl just a bit to see the younger folk drinking cans of Coke (quite new over there) and the young lassies wearing T shirts over their pagnes. I seem to want their traditions to be preserved too. I don't want all countries and peoples to be exactly the same, I like their individual quirks and ways. Is this Nationalism, Patriotism, Traditionalism or what?

I've come to the conclusion that love of one's country is fine, if it's combined with love of one's fellow human beings everywhere, and enjoyment of other cultures/lands. Without judging, chauvinism, aggression or xenophobia.
Sounds a bit wet and sappy I suppose, but it's the best I can come up with. ("Peace and Love, man!" and all that. I'm still a Hippy at heart!)

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 05:53 AM

Bloody southerner.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 06:24 AM

"I've come to the conclusion that love of one's country is fine, if it's combined with love of one's fellow human beings everywhere, and enjoyment of other cultures/lands. Without judging, chauvinism, aggression or xenophobia."
A perfect summing up of a difficult subject - a definite "wish I'd said that"
"It is the duty of the government of any country to work in the best interests of the electorate of that country."
Certainly not - it is the duty of any Government to work in the best interests of every singly occupant of that country, or at the very least, t6ake all their interests into consideration, no matter whether they voted, who they voted for and wherever they came from.
People vted for Brexit largely to get rid of immigrants - the well being of the country as a whole came a very poor second.
Given the shambolically uncertain outcome, it would be interesting to see the result if the vote was held again.
Brexit was an example of nationalism at its very worst and most dangerous - a racists charter
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 09:08 AM

from "The seasons of Peace" by Bob Beers

"False are the bickering reigns
Of honor, of homeland, of war
That nourish the torrents of hate,
and flow through the valleys of death,

Cold are the patriot winds
That scatter the bittering weed,
Strong are the seedlings of truth
That grow in the seasons of peace."

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 10:25 AM

""I've come to the conclusion that love of one's country is fine, if it's combined with love of one's fellow human beings everywhere, and enjoyment of other cultures/lands. Without judging, chauvinism, aggression or xenophobia."
A perfect summing up of a difficult subject - a definite "wish I'd said that"
"It is the duty of the government of any country to work in the best interests of the electorate of that country."
Certainly not - it is the duty of any Government to work in the best interests of every singly occupant of that country, or at the very least, t6ake all their interests into consideration, no matter whether they voted, who they voted for and wherever they came from.
People vted for Brexit largely to get rid of immigrants - the well being of the country as a whole came a very poor second.
Given the shambolically uncertain outcome, it would be interesting to see the result if the vote was held again.
Brexit was an example of nationalism at its very worst and most dangerous - a racists charter"

A thousand times "Amen" to all of that, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 12:07 PM

People voted for Brexit for all kinds of reasons. If we'd had an option to vote for a Norway type deal in which free movement was guaranteed, but a greater measure of independence was available, I'd have been tempted to go for it, to make sure the railways and other bits of the economy could be brought back into public ownership without running into problems with the EU.

Of course the referendum made no reference to a clampdown on free movement, and it would be perfectly consistent with the result of the vote to retain it, and I'd love to see a settlement in which this right was preserved. Actually I'm pretty certain that if we'd had a referendum giving us the three choices, on an alternative vote system, that is, the choice of staying in the EU, of getting out and ending free movement, or of getting out while maintaining it, the third option would have ended up getting the majority.
............
I'd class myself as a universal patriot.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 01:11 PM

Mr McGrath....I am genuinely amazed that you are in favour of "free movement" within the EU.....its is unfair and exploitative, it interferes with training schemes for our own young people and deprives poorer countries of their much needed labour.

I am totally against it....do you really think that I am a racist?

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 01:38 PM

'...our own young people...' Well, all young people the world over are 'our own' in a sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 02:27 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton - PM
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 10:32 AM

So.....what do you think of the fact that a large majority of SNP supporters voted "remain" in the recent referendum?
I think that is shows they would rather be part of Europe, rather than be truly independent and be governed by Scottish politicians from Scotland.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 03:23 PM

"it interferes with training schemes for our own young people and deprives poorer countries of their much needed labour."
No - it gives those young people an opportunity to work and not to be forced onto, crappy training schemes without being given a choice
Given the level of unemployment there is hardly any worthwhile work in Britain and there will be considerably less when Brexit begins to eally bite - even the economists have admitted that
All because the lady can say "No Immigrants"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 05:51 PM

Bigoted
Reactionary
English
Xenophobic
Intolerant
Territorial...... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 06:10 PM

As I indicated, I don't assume people voting for Brexit were necessarily racist. I don't even assume people opposed to freedom of movement are necessarily racist.

It's just that I value the immigrants we've been getting whether from Poland or Scotland.

If I lived in a country plagued by emigration, such as Poland - or Scotland - I'd be very much in favour of finding ways of reducing the pressures on young people to emigrate, and curing the plague of emigration. That would cut down on immigration here, but I'd be glad to feel that the people we'd be losing would have the opportunity to stay home where in most cases they'd far sooner be. But stopping them coming at this end, no way.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 10:48 PM

TERIBUS sez: "Joe please remember when talking about the foolishness of Brexit that the USA would never have entertained the idea of joining such a single market or would ever have contemplated surrendering to any degree whatsoever sovereignty or any part of the decision making process to anyone else."



The USA DID join such a single market - the effort began in the 1780s, but almost ended in failure in the 1860s. I'm traveling in the Southern US now, and I'm constantly reminded to respect the sovereignty of the individual states.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 01:54 AM

Comparing apples and oranges Joe and you know it.

1776 you had 13 "colonial" states with common language, common and very simple aims, common currency and a common understanding of what government was and code of law. Where on earth is the comparison to the EU.

The USA did NOT join such a single market in the 1780s it created it's own and right from the start it was created as a political entity. We here in Britain were lied to and conned twice into believing that we were joining a trading block and ended up having a political union forced upon us that required us to relinquish our own sovereign rights and make our own courts subservient to a foreign legal body.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 02:50 AM

PFR....Realistic?   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 02:55 AM

Jim, I can't make sense of the following comment.

""it interferes with training schemes for our own young people and deprives poorer countries of their much needed labour."
No - it gives those young people an opportunity to work and not to be forced onto, crappy training schemes without being given a choice"

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, simply cant grasp your meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 02:59 AM

There's a helpful entry on Nationalism at the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy here.

LFF

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 03:17 AM

I come at it from a completely different angle to Teribus in that I was a Remainer - however on his last point as far as I am concerned he is correct. The US and EU are not comparable as the US is an established nation state (best term I could come up with) whilst the EU is a large group of established nation states working together sacrificing some measure of sovereignty in the process. Sure the US is a single market created from smaller constituent parts but in that sense it is already comparable to the UK - or Italy or Germany etc. All created within the last few hundred years from smaller kingdoms, principalties, duchies etc. I imagine even the bulk of Remainers wouldn't want to see a single European super state comparable to the US!

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalism - a good or bad thing?
From: Stanron
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 04:45 AM

Allan Conn wrote: I imagine even the bulk of Remainers wouldn't want to see a single European super state comparable to the US!

I thought that this was exactly the 'hidden agenda' that drove the EU. Ever Closer Union and tighter financial controls. A single European Super State was precisely the 'truth' they tried to keep hidden.