BS: No poppies for me

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 10:49 AM

Locally, attempts to find a British Legion rep to read In Memoriam at a church service had great difficulty- the three local BL branches had closed as members were falling and remaining ones too old to carry them forward. It seems modern ex-servicemen don't want to be part of it. In a generation the whole Legion movement may be dead, leaving only Help for Heroes to fill the gap.

RtS

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Raedwulf
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 03:02 PM

Steve - LOL is all I can say. East London - people just like everyone everywhere else, reely! Yer still Manky, though. Be thankful. As a Southern Git, I could just point out that everywhere north of Watford Gap & south of Scotland is Yaaaaarkshuuuure! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 03:07 PM

Don't give me any of that Yorkshire shite!



How does a Yorkshireman make an omelette?

First, he nicks three eggs...

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 04:02 PM

Pinch three eggs he might, but he'd only use two. He'd sell the other one to pay for the gas.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: keberoxu
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 04:19 PM

The observation about the Legion reminded me:

"....the forgotten heroes of a forgotten war
And the young people ask me,
What are they marching for?
And I ask myself the same question

And the band plays Waltzing Matilda
And the old men still answer the call
But year after year
Their numbers get fewer
Someday no one will march there at all"

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 06:40 AM

As a Mancy immigrant in Yorkshire I have to say the mantra on rising every day

Hear all, see all, say nowt
Eat all, drink all, pay nowt
And if thi does owt for nowt, do it fur thisen

But as a Manc born and bred I cannot resist a dig at Liverpool

Why did they dig the Mersey tunnel? The Scousers would have nicked a bridge.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Raedwulf
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 10:45 AM

Typical. Trust a Yorkshireman to fail a spelling test. It's Manky, Dave (not, necessarily, Manky Dave...)! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 11:19 AM

Slight problem there Raedwulf, Dave is as Lancashire as 'otpot.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 11:31 AM

That's two of us he's accused of being bloody tykes. Find out where he drinks, Dave...

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Raedwulf
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 11:53 AM

:D

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 12:48 PM

The Legion may be dwindling, but Remembrance parades are better supported every year, both here and in Australia.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 02:29 PM

Manky is being full of mank
Mancy is being from Manchester

I wish someone would re-instate that Watford Gap...

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Raedwulf
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 02:32 PM

I never realised it had been taken away... :o That's why there's so many of you foreign buggers dahn 'ere then! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 05:35 PM

I once bumped into Jimmy Hill at Watford Gap. Ancient joke:


Little boy: "Miss, does that Jimmy Hill spend a lot of time on ships?"

Teacher: "Well I don't know! Why do you ask?"

Little boy: "Cos every time he comes on telly, my dad shouts 'Jimmy Hill, you anchor!'"




Bought me poppy today by the way. Can't not buy one. Don't ask me why.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 07:47 PM

I once knew a girl called Poppy. Shame that here parents did not foresee the consequences. I think Mr and Mrs Tupper have a lot to answer for...

Been driving around a bit tonight to pick up GnomeDotter #1 on her way back from a do and I saw loads and loads of people wandering about on their way to or from bonfire things. I will be very surprised if anything like that number are attending remembrance services. When the majority of people would rather celebrate the death of a Catholic rebel from 1600 and odd than remember those who died in more recent wars does it not indicate that people are not really that bothered by the poppy?

Just asking...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 08:48 PM

Well I didn't start this thread in order to diss the poppy or the sentiment behind wearing it. My great Uncle Jimmy was shot to pieces at Suvla Bay in 1915, aged 19, remembered now just by me and my old mum, even though neither of us knew him, obviously. He's not buried anywhere and, though his name may be carved on some memorial on the Dardanelles and (misspelled for chrissake) in Salford Cathedral, he's lost to the world except in the collective memory of all the people who observe remembrance. Had he grown old and had kids and grandchildren, our family would have been very different and we'd be raising a glass to the memory of an old bugger who, as it turned out, never had the chance to grace us or disgrace us. I can't knock that, though Jack's post chimes with me big time. I find the whole bloody complicated thing very troubling, to be honest. Anyway, my quid went in the tin but my poppy's staying in the drawer. Best I can muster.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Nov 16 - 09:39 PM

I dont think i've worn a poppy since primary school in the 1960s..

it dos'nt seem to have become such a divisive issue until the the last few years...???

My great grandad volunteered for the first world war in his 40s..

He dug shrapnel out of his own body and carried on...

My grandad who was a boy soldier from orphanage to middle age
was amongst the first to serve in france in the 2nd world war and sickened by having to obliterate a line of germans on a bridge as he escaped dunkirk
carrying
a wounded officer on his back


i'm guessing the surviving soldiers from the last 2 world wars might think the nasty militant pro poppy fascists are a bunch of cunts..

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Acorn4
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 05:10 AM

Personally, if I was a footballer, I wouldn't be listening to any lectures on morality from F.I.F.A.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 07:57 AM

They are not lecturing anyone on morality. They are applying a long-standing rule. If you don't like the rule, that's what you should be arguing about. No need to make things up.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 08:40 AM

Well whatever, at 8pm CET on Remembrance Sunday, 13th November, I'll be standing at the Menin Gate in Ypres for the ceremony, and I'll be wearing my poppy-buttons for this year and the previous two years. Wearing them in sadness, and in Remembrance of millions of young men and women who have been called upon to make the sacrifice, and in gladness and gratitude that I, my family and my friends have never had to make the same sacrifice.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Raedwulf
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 08:02 PM

No they're not, Steve. They're misapplying an otherwise perfectly sensible rule. The poppy isn't political, religious, or commercial. And the mess that they've made of things is indicated by the fact that they jumped on the poppy toot de sweet (sic), but they are only just now, much after the fact, going after Eire for having an Easter '16 commemoration on their shirts some time ago...

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: bobad
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 08:12 PM

i'm guessing the surviving soldiers from the last 2 world wars might think the nasty militant pro poppy fascists are a bunch of cunts..

I'm guessing this poster is a cunt.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 09:15 PM

Well I don't like very much about FIFA at all. I do regard the poppy as having been politicised, which is very unfortunate. We may have to disagree about that. FIFA are applying a rule which may well be a bad rule - matter of opinion I suppose. As long as they're consistent in applying their rules, that's fine. I remain to be convinced that they are doing.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 11:28 PM

Bob - I'd rather be a cunt, than a bitter slimy calloused warty crusty twisted prick.... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 11:41 PM

Btw..I have utmost respect and sadness for the fallen military personel.. I just don't wear poppies...

I don't wear poppies, not as some kind of active protest.. I just don't wear 'em..

Same as there's loads of other things I never wear... watches, rings, bracelets, necklaces, badges, tattoos.. ties, hats..
any clothing displaying logos or slogans.. etc..

The only form of decorative adornment I have little choice but to wear is my glasses..

simple as that.

There is a proper big word for folks of my strict minimalist persuasion [cunt might be as good as any]
but for the moment I am sleepy and can't remember it...

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: mg
Date: 07 Nov 16 - 02:41 AM

I will wear a poppy on Nov 11 and there is no way that date should ever every every be fiddled with. I could care less if people here do or do not wear them. As long as people do not go around abusing veterans on that day of all days, I am pretty OK with everything else. Of course many will abuse veterans, but it is considered declasse these days so that little scourge is dying out.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: keberoxu
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 07:18 PM

What this reminds me of, actually, is a situation that comes up in the United States in the month of October. Everything goes PINK. As in, raising funds for research to find a cure for breast cancer. The Internet is especially vulnerable to the pink pressure in October. I have seen statements from people who despise the whole paint-October-pink routine, usually people whose families or loved ones have been affected by breast cancer in some direct way.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 07:25 PM

the way society is going.. it wont be long before individuals are pilloried and attacked for not wearing red noses and pudsey bear merchandise..

.. i feel it in the air.. I'm getting scared.... 😨

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 07:37 PM

Every July(ish) we have Race For Life all over the UK to raise funds for cancer research. It isn't specifically for breast cancer but it is an all-women event. Mrs Steve has done the 5k race every year for the last ten years at Barnstaple. Everyone wears pink and the event is incredibly well supported, so there's a sea of pink just outside the sports centre as they all warm up. I'm not totally hunkydory when it comes to charities, not because I'm mean but because, though people's good-heartedness in action can only be a good thing, I can't work out why civilised societies should need charities at all. But Race For Life is a lovely sight and a heart-warming, uncontroversial event. And very pink indeed!

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 07:46 PM

out of curiosity.. I see the non stop parade of smart suit wearing spokespersons on BBC news,
nearly all 'proudly [?]' displaying poppies....

Is the way the single green leaf worn, some kind of coded significant secret meaning.. ?????

All poppies are worn on the left lapel, but the leaf can be either pointing left, right, or upwards...

... not seen one pointing downwards yet... ??? 😕

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 07:55 PM

So you're worried that you haven't seen a two-lobed red thing with a long dangly bit underneath...? 😜

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 08:25 PM

A personal choice, regardless of whatever the reason for an individual decision.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Raedwulf
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 09:21 PM

Steve - we can disagree about the poppy. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I do actually think FIFA's rule is a good rule. I just think that you are massively wrong in your 'politicisation' opinion, just the same as I think that FIFA are massively misapplying something that the rule simply does not cover.

As for other comments made to me on other threads... Meh. It's that sort of mindless nonsense that led me to fall out of the Mudcat habit. At least there's one person here I can have have a vaguely sensible natter with, Even if he is Yaaa... *ahem* Norrverrn! ;-)

Punkie - It's called "I don't do display". I don't wear my team's shirt; I don't fly the flag (England or UK); I don't wear a poppy. I give every year, but I never wear a poppy. I know I gave; I don't feel any need to broadcast it. I know that broadcasting it is also a good thing. It's just not me. I think you'll understand... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 09:46 PM

Well, as soon as you start criticising people for not wearing a poppy, or see the tabloids remarking on it, or see the media watching people like Corbyn like a hawk to see whether he'll wear a red one, a white one or none at all, or watch the Graham Norton Show or Question Time or Strictly to discern who is or who isn't wearing one, you've politicised the poppy. The British Legion hate that scrutiny but it's out of their hands. Suppose you decide that you'll let the England team wear poppies after all. What happens then is that you'll scrutinise the pre-match lineup to see who isn't wearing one, and if one player isn't wearing one he'll be all over the tabloids next day. So they'll wear one anyway in order to avoid that. That's the politicised poppy for you. There's the pressure. Of course you don't have to wear one. But if you're in the public eye you'll be noticed, bigtime, if you don't. And criticised. That's politics writ large.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Raedwulf
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 10:38 PM

There's a difference between scrutiny & comment. I think this was, sort of, where I came in, wasn't it? If you want to wear it, wear it. If you don't want to wear it, it doesn't matter whether you're like me or PFR, who don't do display, or like the Derry footballer who thinks he has reasons why he shouldn't.

Argue the toss all you want. So long as you remember. I suppose even arguing the toss counts as remembrance. So long as you remember why you're arguing the toss... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 06:30 AM

I'm not arguing with you. Just pointing out that not wearing a poppy, or wearing the wrong poppy, will attract attention to you if you happen to be in the public eye. That's a fact borne out by the experiences of yer footballer, the Norton Show guest and by Jeremy Corbyn. You don't HAVE to wear it, but if you don't somebody, somewhere, will highlight you. There's pressure - not much, but pressure - to wear one even if you'd rather not. That's adding a veneer of politics on to what should be entirely non-political. I'm not in the public eye, but when I put my quid in the tin last week I found myself explaining to the rather surprised lady why I wasn't taking a poppy. In the end Mrs Steve just took my poppy and shoved it in her handbag in furtherance of a quiet life. The poppy carries a symbolism that I'd rather not display. I don't want people thinking that my non-wearing is another kind of symbolism. It isn't. I support Liverpool but I don't walk around Bude wearing a replica home shirt, do I? (No, I don't!). The fact that I'm not seen going to Mass on Sunday isn't necessarily to be taken as a sign that I'm anti-religion (I am, as it happens, but I'd far sooner convey that to you by telling you in words or making meself a nuisance with it on Mudcat).

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 08:42 AM

I have just come upon a compromise that works for me. I am pretty ambivalent about the wearing of the poppy and tend not to do it but, like others, I still buy one. I just bought mine at work and have stuck it on a picture of my Grandsons. A real reminder of why we should never let it happen again!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 09:26 AM

Our local British legion used to serve a damn fine cheap pint of rough cider..

I reckon I contributed more than my fair share towards Legion charities every weekend
whilst enjoying a hearty refreshing booze up in good convivial company..

plus my mrs payed to play the bingo with some old dears she got friendly with...

Then sadly our legion was closed down...

Now it's just the poppy collection, and increasingly bullying societal pressure to conform...

I preferred the legion cider and a good night out...

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 01:54 PM

I don't wear one - because I don't make a show of my charitable giving. However, I will always contribute to the appeal, because of the valuable work the British Legion do for armed forces families. The people in HM armed forces volunteered for their work, their spouses knew what they were taking on, but their children have no choice in the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 03:26 PM

I'm afraid I'm more in Jack Campin's camp on this. Yes the charities in question do a job that needs doing and I would never diss their efforts. My quid went in the tin as it does every year. But even the Germans had God on their side. The bastard Hun who shot my great Uncle Jimmy to pieces at Suvla Bay was only a bastard Hun by accident of birth. Can't think of Uncle Jimmy without thinking of him as well. He doesn't get much of a mention in any of our military parades on Remembrance Day. That's why I'll buy a poppy but won't pin it on.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 07:03 PM

"The bastard Hun who shot my great Uncle Jimmy to pieces at Suvla Bay was only a bastard Hun by accident of birth." - Steve Shaw

Suvla Bay in 1915? Then that would be a "bastard" Turk who was part of their Fifth Army wouldn't it Shaw and while your great Uncle may have reason and cause to refer to him in such terms, you most certainly have not. Your great Uncle Jimmy who you obviously never knew, volunteered to serve and fight for his country was in no way whatsoever different from whoever it was in the Turkish Fifth Army who killed him who was simply fighting for and defending his country.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 07:31 PM

Quite so. Not a Hun, a Turk. It's been a long day and I went to bed disconsolate at half past three this morning. The fact that Uncle Jimmy was killed by a Turk and not a German hardly affects the sentiment of what I was saying. Thank you for the polite correction. .

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 16 - 07:33 PM

And actually, Teribus, your final sentence makes my point for me.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 02:19 AM

Last point Shaw? Well not really, in your case that point was rather negated by the "bastard" appellation that preceded it.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 09:51 PM

How long are you supposed to wear your poppy for, to get full value for money...???

Only it's very early morning Fri 11 Nov, and as one of today's deals
Amazon have just discounted their stock of Royal British Legion Poppy Jewellry Brooches..

The problem is they wont be delivered until at least Monday.....


Though, I suppose if they dont change the design too much, you can put them in a drawer for next year.... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 01:59 AM

I wear my metal poppy-button all year, until they begin to sell the next year's buttons. Remembrance shouldn't just be for one day.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Raedwulf
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 05:32 AM

Steve - I didn't suggest you were arguing with me; that was a more general comment. I did say "vaguely sensible natter", dear boy! ;-)

As for Remembrance, funnily enough I had this conversation with a friend of a friend a couple of days ago... Germany has its own Remembrance Day, as do most nations. For many, it is also 11:00 11/11, though not for Germany. But they, too, remember their own (if they wish). And there's no rule over who you remember. Most people remember only the war dead, and probably of their own side. As a history buff, with, oh, 1880-ish to 1918-ish being a particular interest, I know a great deal about WWI, and a pretty fair amount about WWII. I remember all of the war dead. The only real difference between them was the colour of their uniforms...

Incidentally, there used to be a perception that the Turks were descendants of the Huns (the real Huns; if you want to know the derivation of the pejorative, google it!). It's incorrect, but you weren't entirely wrong. ;-)

And, in 30 mins, it'll be that time again. Eleventh Hour of the Eleventh Day of the Eleventh Month. The only time that really counts...

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 05:50 AM

I observe the silence and my annual quid went into the tin. I'll think of great Uncle Jimmy, killed at nineteen a hundred years ago two thousand miles away from Salford and unburied still, and wonder if he ever knew what he was fighting for. Of course I never knew him, Teribus, but I do know that he was a fine young man whose death changed our family line forever in ways we can't know. I can just about cope with human-scale thinking of that kind. Human scale? Read the Teresa Hooley poem I posted on the Armistice Day thread (one of'em anyway). That's the way to think of wars if we we ever want to stop wars. In real life we can grieve over the tragedy of, say, a small child killed in a car crash. In an insane war a hundred people can be blown to kingdom come in a street market and it won't make the front page. Wars dull our thinking. Individual human experiences sharpen it, and we need sharper thinking. We don't stop wars (proven) by using remembrance, even if only in part, as a vehicle for patriotism, militarism and grandstanding by royalty. Those phenomena can have the other 364 days. That's wassup with me.

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 06:15 AM

The bloodbath of World War One was never one of defending our country - it was a squabble between Empires.
If Remembrance Day was about the mourning and shame of the sacrificing of a generation so that "Gallant "Little Belgium" could add to its list of ten million slaughtered Congolese in pursuit of rubber, there would be no problem in buying a poppy.
It's this "defence of country" bullshit that makes it so hypocritically sickening.
The country was plunged into mass depression and poverty sandwiched neatly between the two avoidable World Wars - who wants to commemorate that?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: No poppies for me
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 06:19 AM

Well Hello Hans I was passing so I stopped to say Hello
you don't know me, there's no reason why you should ever know
you died here, in some prison camp conditions weren't too bad
was it a wound Hans or did the shellshock send you mad
You were twenty, that's what it says upon the stone
I'm trying to imagine what it must be like to die alone
at twenty, before you've had the chance to be full grown
I was passing so I stopped to say Hello.