BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 08:42 AM

Iains
Capitalism waged war on Bolshevism from day one - 24 countries sided with the opposition forces in the Russian civil war, spying and sabotage was legendary for those old enough to remember, the serial 'Reilly, Ace of Spies' was based on a real individual.
The fact is that Russia had little chance of succeeding anyway - a massive Empire spreading from Europe into Asia, largely feudal, no industries to make an easy transition from capitalism to socialism.
The revolution was sparked off by the soldiers walking away from the war and the people pissed off with the conditions the war had caused.
The alternatives they were given was to go back to the front and put up with starvation (and keep the Tzar) or change society - the Bolsheviks won the argument with their slogan, 'Bread, Peace and Land' and embarked on a massive job of uniting the disparate groups and building first an army and then an industry - hampered by civil war within and outside interference.
Ideally, Germany should have been the first to attempt to change society, but their revolution was crushed, the leaders murdered and fascism eventually took over.
That fascism was welcomed by the western leaders as an opposition to any change in the international status quo hence the "bulwark against Bolshevism" policy.
All a bit simplistic, I'm afraid but 'The Kings Depart' is a wonderful gap-filler
It's always fascinated me that the father of fascism in Germany was 'Noske 'the basketmaker'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Iains
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 07:09 AM

I am not quite sure what you are saying there Jim. Are you saying that had Nazi Germany not existed that the capitalist societies of western Europe would have peacefully coexisted with Bolshevism? I think the different ideologies would have clashed at some point. Perhaps you hold a different view.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 06:38 AM

"He saw the problem and pursued the solution. "
Summed up beautifully when he and others described Nazi Germany as a "bulwark against bolshevism"
Who was it said we get the leaders we deserve?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 06:13 AM

I can (may?) nitpick if I like. So can you. Good idea to be careful how you nitpick. Even MGM Lion once nitpicked me, to his cost!

Fortunately, Joe, my hot body syndrome didn't set in until Maggie was well past it. The twain never met.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Iains
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 05:54 AM

I am surprised Winston Churchill has not had a mention yet. Now there was a hands on man.
Sending troops to Tonypandy to sort out striking miners.
Sending   troops to end the sidney street siege
Creating the Dardenelles fiasco WW1
mobilising blackleg labour to break the dock strike in the 20's
He is reputed to have said during the General Strike: "a little blood-letting" would be all to the good
Recommending using poison gas on Iraquis
All this before becoming Prime Minister.

No wishy washy PC behaviour from him. He saw the problem and pursued the solution. Even during his wilderness years his rhetoric was a force to be reckoned with.

Today he would be treated as a pariah. He was a man of his time.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 05:24 AM

"I'm not sure I can handle this. Margaret Thatcher as sex kitten?"
Didn't you see the wonderfuls cartoon depiction of Sexy Maggie and Beefcake Ronnie taken from the
GONE WITH THE WIND poster Joe?
As big a classic as the film
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Stu
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 04:39 AM

"Margaret Thatcher as sex kitten?"

Believe it or not, true! It's odd, but men were attracted to her and more than a few found her... sexy. There's no accounting for taste.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 04:26 AM

On a nitpicking home run. If I may. can I?
Language is all about communicating ideas. Sender & receiver need a common set of concepts. Not that common on this thread!

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 04:22 AM

Mr. Red ses: Thatcher's cabinet were in awe of her, I have seen it said that they were attracted in the bizarre sexual way that is the human condition.

Wait! Wait! Wait!

I'm not sure I can handle this. Margaret Thatcher as sex kitten?

And Steve Shaw with a "hot body"?

Maybe the two of them were meant for each other....

Then again, maybe not. ;-)

And then where do we fit Donald Trump into this conjugation?

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Iains
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 04:09 AM

So Mr Shaw can nit pick to his heart's content but:" and it would be better all round if you avoided that kind of nitpicking, thank you."

A case of do as I say not as I do is it? Of course you are the font of all knowledge being a teacher, although judging by you actions here your pupils must have found you as insufferable and sanctimonious as I do.

You must have an ego the size of a bus trying to dictate what others do, or think on this forum. With your conceit I would have thought you would create your own blog instead of trying for the world record of ranting on this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 12:09 PM

That is depressingly common. It's perfectly fine to ask if you can to the toilet. It's better not written down that way, though. Teachers who indulge in that silliness are legion. Confronted with that response you'd be right to feel irritated.

When I say you can't tell some people that, it means that some people just won't take it in. I think you already know that. I'm not writing legal documents when I type stuff here and it would be better all round if you avoided that kind of nitpicking, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 11:02 AM

It's a diverse profession that is very resistant to being stereotyped. Of course, you can't tell some people that.
You can tell anyone that. Some may not believe you, but that doesn't stop you telling them.

Remembering Father Kenny Martin, my physics teacher, who, if asked "Can I go to the toilet" would carefully point out the difference between the pupil's ability, and the teacher's willingness to grant permission.

If you didn't wish to be unduly delayed, you would learn to ask "May I go to the toilet".

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 10:33 AM

" I have never worn sandals to school. "
Referred to affectionately as "Jesus Boots" in my home town of Liverpool
Off topic completely:
Lovely observation by Liverpool teacher, Peter Moloney, who actually put together an album of them in the 1960s
Two schoolboys waking past Childwall Abbey in South Liverpool, encountered a bearded, bald monk, in monkish regalia,
One enquired (in very broad Liverpoolese "Ey father, were you in the Ark?"
Ourages, the monk replied, "Of course I wasn't boy"
"Why weren't you drowned then?"
Sorry for the interruption.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 10:10 AM

Thank you for that Steve. And interesting that you have a 'hot body' :)

I'm accustomed to it now, but I used to get a bit cross when my young sister, quite rightly, received respect and admiration for being a doctor, while I hardly dared admit to being a teacher.

It's odd about the stereotype, because I've had many colleagues over the years, a diverse selection, and I'd find it hard to categorise them in any way. Some were young and keen, some a bit older or set in their ways, all had differing political loyalties, some were deeply religious,others atheists and so on. No professional group can be stereotyped.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 10:04 AM

Trump starts with a clear run and a ton of hubris

And a cabinet of brain dead sycophants, racists, billonaires and science-deniers..

Keep yer heads down.........

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 09:59 AM

Actually, Senoufou, the country with the highest-achieving pupils in the world, Singapore, also lays great store by the quality of its teachers. Only the very best people in their fields get to stand in front of a class. "Those who can, teach!"

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 09:53 AM

Well said, but I wouldn't worry about the insults too much. People like Iains and Teribus who hurl stereotypes around about teachers are saying a damn sight more about themselves, generally negative stuff, than they are saying about the poor old teachers who had to endure them at school. Quite often it's all about their personal failures along the path of learning. I've met my share of good, average, poor and utterly inspiring teachers, at school, at university and as a teacher myself. It's a diverse profession that is very resistant to being stereotyped. Of course, you can't tell some people that. When people unreasonably diss teachers online, my favourite evil pastime is to pick holes in their posts in order to show that they should have listened harder at school... 😈

And I do admit to wearing sandals. Nothing to do with my wanting to conform to the stereotype, everything to do with the fact that I'm a hot-bodied sort of chap.

Down, girls!

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 08:17 AM

Well I've been a teacher all my life. I have never worn sandals to school. I am not an ardent liberal. I am not illiterate nor do I write ungrammatically. I have learnt much from the so-called University of Life in addition to a real University, having travelled extensively and met all types of people in many lands. I can definitely 'do' as well as 'teach', even though I have actually taught teachers. I would say I have quite a large experience of life.
There are many kinds of teachers, some similar to me, others very different in outlook and character. One can't stereotype the profession, or generalise.
I would say I had a true vocation to teach, and I am proud of that. Please do not insult me.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 05:34 AM

Thatcher's cabinet were in awe of her, I have seen it said that they were attracted in the bizarre sexual way that is the human condition. Not Eggweena, she wasn't and was a threat.

Lighten up folks and remember: "She was only a grocer's daughter but she taught Sir Geoffrey Howe"

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 05:26 AM

Iains, I would hardly call anything you've said do far as "taking me to task." Of course, teachers are easy meat for the ill-educated. You've demonstrated a fair bit of failure of focus here, along with a less than fully-literate writing style, that makes me suspect that you should have listened more at school. I've been called a bitter ex-Catholic a few times. Perhaps there's such a thing as a bitterly-ungrateful ex-pupil, typified by you and Teribus, who feels the need to constantly attack those with whom they failed to cooperate in school, stooping even to ridiculing their footwear (you haven't mentioned leather elbow patches yet, by the way). I have this mental picture of you and Teribus sitting on the back row in class flicking bits of paper at each other, in between bouts of more personal distractions...

The last person I knew who used to proclaim loudly that he didn't need no education because he'd learned all his common sense from real life died of alcoholism. It's true!

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 05:15 AM

Thing is though, Joe, some of the relatively virtuous wielders of power you've mentioned - Obama, Mandela, Tutu, Gorbachev - for various reasons to do with the vicissitudes of their time enjoyed compromised power only. Maybe that's the way it should be. The horror that was Thatcher made sure via her undoubted charisma that she was surrounded by a cabinet of brain-dead sheep. That gave her in her own mind the illusion of near-dictatorship, at least within her own party. She was starting to forget that she was living in a democracy. Like most people of that ilk, she eventually miscalculated and was brought down in the end by one of those erstwhile "sheep." John Major after her lacked the charisma to bring it off and was eventually driven to castigate the "bastards" in his own ranks. Blair was a far better politician (I use that term in the very narrow sense). Cleverly, he handed the poisoned chalice he'd created to Gordon Brown in the nick of time.

Trump starts with a clear run and a ton of hubris. Let's hope that his inevitable miscalculation comes sooner rather than later.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 05:04 AM

Those that can, DO. Those that can't, Teach (GBS to Mrs Patrick-Campbell)

Hmmmm ......... & just for the humour:
Those that can't teach, teach teachers.
We elect the rest!

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 04:22 AM

Those of you in the United Kingdom have had your Mrs. T. I predict she won't hold a candle to our Mr. T. He hasn't even taken office yet, and already he's a national embarrassment....

Tweet!!

Maybe Maggie would have been worse if Twitter had been invented by the time she was in office...

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 04:15 AM

" so that the following is now no longer the case:"
Why on earth not - does it matter which bunch of self-serving politicians destroyed the mining communities and left them without livelihoods?
The mess that these people have left the British workers in is the same, whoever was responsible.
RUINS LEFT by THATCHER
I watched 'Mandela, Walk to Freedom' last night - what a brave, dignified man - I seem to remember Mrs T (Augosto Pinochet's favourite democrat) described him as "a terrorist".
Funny how opinions differ!!!
How I'm happy to remember her
Jim Carrroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: BobL
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 04:09 AM

I seem to remember, just before Thatcher's premiership, something called the Winter of Discontent. Didn't the Labour government virtually bankrupt the country trying to keep the old industries afloat? And the unions - the ones that got the publicity at any rate, although we must take empty barrel syndrome into account - weren't much help.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 03:37 AM

Why is it that anyonre taken to task for ridiculous statements counter attacks with personal insults? Is it because they have run out of anything sensible to say?
Hello Steve. Are you listening?
I have introduced a couple of spelling mistakes for you to correct, just to make you feel better. Then you can jump back into that little cocoon that you have convinced yourself is reality.
I actually feel quite sorry for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 03:20 AM

There is another saying Steve. It has a far greater ring of truth. Those that can, DO. Those that can't, Teach.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 02:36 AM

Just as well then Shaw that, according to you, the coal mines were closed (Far more were closed under Labour than were closed by the Conservatives) so that the following is now no longer the case:

"the bloke with poor wages who knackers himself underground every day in filthy, dark and dangerous conditions just to keep your lights on"

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 02:03 AM

Another leader who wasn't corrupted by power was Mikhail Gorbachev. I'm also impressed by the fact that Gorbachev loves to sing. (click)

And one could certainly argue that Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu never showed any signs of corruption, despite the fact that the African National Congress has had much corruption. And Winnie Mandela proved corrupt, too.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 09:14 PM

My dad always used to refer to the attitude of people who dissed teachers as also-rans and who claimed that you could "get your degree in Common Sense at the University of Life" as the cult of the philistine. Seems that Iains has finally signed up with the great cult leader Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 03:46 PM

I'll spare everyone else except you, in your case until you stop being so pretentious. The only reason you can write anything at all is that you had teachers. It seems that you were a bit too obsessed with their footwear for your own good.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Iains
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 03:12 PM

Hmmmm mr Shaw we are being sanctimonious today, Is that you in full schoolmaster mode. If so please spare us.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Iains
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 02:50 PM

Mr Red.
Thanks for the correction.

http://thorax.bmj.com/content/53/5/398.full

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 12:31 PM

"ransom"
By closing down industries wholesale and forcing skilled tradesman and craftsmen to take lower paid, lower skilled jobs or receive no unemployment to feed their families is the most viciously inhuman form of "holding to ransom" there is.
I would strongly recommend a visit to Ken Loach's 'I, Daniel Blake' to see an accurate depiction of what is happening in Britain today.
Holding Britain to ransom - my arse.
If incompetent and avaricious bankers can receive massive government bailouts from the public purse which they use to pay themselves obscene rewards for clearing up the mess they have made of the national economy - why cannot workers demand reasonable wages for the work they do well?
Talk about double-standards.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 11:58 AM

"Holding the country to ransom" is Daily Mail parroting and has been for decades. If anyone holds the country to ransom it's big companies who constantly threaten to pull out, forcing us to let them pay less corporation tax, and the mega-rich who have taken everything and who have armies of accountants to make sure they give nothing back. Sort the tax evaders out and the deficit would disappear overnight. But we can't do that, because, why, they're holding us to ransom! But you'd rather think that it was the bloke with poor wages who knackers himself underground every day in filthy, dark and dangerous conditions just to keep your lights on who's holding us to ransom when he fights for better conditions and a wage rise, using the only tool in his armoury, his labour. You have a very peculiar way of looking at things to say the least.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 10:56 AM

I think he actually believes the US President can do pretty much anything he wants

As does his White House Counsel, and his Cabinet of Turds.

Remember the Republicruds' whining about Obama's "unconstitutional excesses of executive power"?

You just couldn't make this bullshit up.

And you ain't seen nuthin' yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 09:58 AM

"That wording makes clear that you do not consider that she actually was a fascist head of state"
She would have been had she been given the opportunity - but she made her position quite clear whan she described Augusto Pinochet's mass murder as democracy, held a rally in his support and described the British politicians who put him under house arrest while it was decided whether he should stand trial of "running a police state" - "from the mouths of babes and politicians", so to speak.
Thatcher put the welfare of the miners as an excuse for closing the mines as an afterthought - it was never the reason, and even if it was, you don't close down an industry around which many communities have been built for many generations and not replace them
Thatcher's concern for the miners was demonstrated perfectly at Orgreave and was reiterated by the present government's refusal to hold an enquiry, which occurred five years earlier than Hillborough and still has not been fully investigated.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 09:55 AM

I would say that Barack Obama did an admirable job in a position of power, given the circumstances - and I do not believe he was corrupted in the process.
-Joe-

I agree. And it's because Obama understands the limits of executive power. Even when stonewalled by a recalcitrant Congress, he has not overstepped his authority. Yes, one or two of his executive actions have been shot down by the courts, but that's part of the give and take between the governmental branches. The executive powers enumerated in The Constitution are few. Most have been established by judicial decision or legislative action. (i.e. the ability to wage war: The Constitution specifically grants the authority to declare war to Congress, but Congress has ceded much of that authority to the President. The US has not fought in a "declared" war since WWII.) I don't believe Mr. Obama has taken an executive action which he knew beforehand was beyond the limits of his authority.

I fear that the person slated to replace him has no such understanding. I think he actually believes the US President can do pretty much anything he wants, and I don't see him surrounding himself with advisors who are likely to tell him otherwise. The first time Congress refuses to rubber-stamp a Trump legislative proposal, or the courts declare one of his executive actions unconstitutional, he is going to seek a work-around. He's a person who hates to lose, yet he has sought and accepted a job in which nobody ever has or ever will win 100% of the time. He will seek to win at all costs, legality be damned.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Kampervan
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 09:47 AM

Jim. Part of the discussion - yes, but these things seem almost always to become virtually entirely given over to discussing Thatcher, and very little of it is new. So we get nowhere

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 09:42 AM

Still, as long as we don't mind relying on unstable foreign regimes for our energy supplies... The alternative used to be allowing the unions to hold us to ransom by withholding fuel supplies.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 09:23 AM

"The traditional heavy industries were in decline and had been for a considerable time. Thatcher inherited a problem ignored by at least the four previous PMs of both persuasions. She solved the problem and rationalised the system. So far automation has only wiped out unskilled jobs. Hear the screams when traditional white collar jobs evaporate due to computerisation. Much by rote teaching is better done in front of a computer. Do we really need all those flag waving sandal wearing teaches?
De regulation is another matter entirely."

Hmm. What a pity you didn't pay a bit more attention to your sandal-wearing teachers. You might have avoided all those errors of grammar and punctuation, and your assessment of recent history might have turned out to be a little more sound as well.

And I see from Teribus that the only way to assess the success or otherwise of an industry is by measuring how much profit it makes. The greater good of the country can go hang. Still, as long as we don't mind relying on unstable foreign regimes for our energy supplies...

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 08:58 AM

she was the nearest Britain ever got to a Fascist head of state - that fact
That wording makes clear that you do not consider that she actually was a fascist head of state, so why even introduce the term into the conversation?

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 08:26 AM

"Does every politically-based thread on Mudcat have to come down to a discussion(?) about Thatcher? "
Where relevant yes - she was the nearest Britain ever got to a Fascist head of state - that fact alone makes her totally relevant to this topic
Why should she not be part of this discussion?
Discussion

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 07:02 AM

Obama was a a one-off. A rarity. But it has to be said, the measure of the man is that the weight of expectation was upon him. He delivered.
History will re-write his stature but it will have a hard time diminishing it.

FWIW I came across an American song called "Pneumoconiosis Blues".

BTW Miners suffer from pneumoconiosis (in America Miner's Lung), pottery workers silicosis (silicon dioxide being the principle irritant there). I have a little experience working in coal mines. The militant nature of the workers did not square logically with consensus politics. Certainly in King Arthurs demesne. If that man hadn't had (not even covert) aspirations in Westminster and Thatcher had not had a clear majority.....................

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Kampervan
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 07:00 AM

Does every politically-based thread on Mudcat have to come down to a discussion(?) about Thatcher?

The opening question is general and one which,by and large, I agree with.

There are exceptions, Barrack Obama is quite possibly one of them, but there are far more examples where it's true. Robert Mugabe, Chairman Mao are two candidates.

How about a discussion as to whether or not this is the case and, possibly, could it ever be different?

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 06:24 AM

"The traditional heavy industries were in decline and had been for a considerable time."
Due largely to lack of investment
Britain had a fine shipping, textile steel and manufacturing industry but in order to maintain them needed good management and investment.
It became more profitable to buy shoddy abroad - that is what happened to British industry (described as "crap" by a contributor to this thread)- not natural selection.
The various governments of both hues supported the dismantling of British industy so, while the world was maintaining and establishing industrial bases, we were giving ours away without a regard for those who it would effect the most the workers in those industries.
The point we have reached is epitomised by our approach to textiles - we fill our shops with cheap goods produced in death traps of factories for pittance level wages - british jobs have disappeared and we are placated by blaming economic migrants who are coming to Britain to escape conditions we have helped to create.
One of the effects of Britain's de-industrialisation policy is the massive and growing gap between the HAVES and HAVE-NOTS in Britain.
The 'disappeared' industries were nort replaced with new ones to and the somewhat limited voice the worker had won for himself over the centuries was silenced, so they had no say in what was happening to their lives.
The benefit system was totally undermined, making it virtually impossible for many breadwinners to support their families an notice of dismissal was replaced with zero contracts
Higher education has been placed out of reach of the average British family by the introduction and gradual increasing of fees
Security of tenure destroyed by Thatcher's 'Right to Buy' con.
The only thing we have left from Labour's 1940s gift is a health service that staggers from crisis to crisis because of underfunding and concentration on bureaucracy rather than health care.
No industrial base - a dependent nation with no secure future.
Britain's highest export, as things stand, if finance - to the tune of 30 odd percent
A Britain to bring children up in!!!
THATCHER'S HATRED OF TRADE UNIONS
"I agree with your last post Iains, but trying to explain politics on this forum is bashing your head against a brick wall."
One more posting by someone whose entire input is in attacking other's conceived politics without offering a shred of argument - how can you when your postings seldom exceed three sentences of text
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Iains
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 04:34 AM

The word should of course be teachers above(before the man with the impeccable keyboard skills corrects me-again)

Steve Shaw. The idea that the Prime Minister of a capitalist country would deliberately set about destroying a vibrant part of the economy just to poke a union in the eye is a quaint idea even for you, and patently ridiculous. The industries were dying anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Iains
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 03:36 AM

The traditional heavy industries were in decline and had been for a considerable time. Thatcher inherited a problem ignored by at least the four previous PMs of both persuasions. She solved the problem and rationalised the system. So far automation has only wiped out unskilled jobs. Hear the screams when traditional white collar jobs evaporate due to computerisation. Much by rote teaching is better done in front of a computer. Do we really need all those flag waving sandal wearing teaches?
De regulation is another matter entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 02:33 AM

Both Stanron and Iains have given you a fairly accurate and objective picture of the "Nation v the Miners/Militant Trades Unions". Trades Unions exist to fight the case and look after the rights and working conditions of their members - they are not there to challenge the Government of the Country elected by the people of the country.

Most idiotic thing stated on this thread so far, considering that as Akenaton says we live in a capitalist economy, belongs to Steve Shaw:

"Thatcher hated the unions and set out to bust the industries in which they were strong."

The EU which all the "usual suspects" seem to support had rules related to Government subsidies keeping industries afloat. Perhaps Steve Shaw can detail how profitable the NCB was. Perhaps he can tell us how much the NCB cost the country per day just to keep going and then he can explain what the law of diminishing returns is and how following it results in a situation that is unsustainable and ruinous for all.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 08:48 PM

I agree, Joe, though his "power" seemed forever compromised. There's a nice piece on Obama's legacy in the Saturday Guardian. I don't understand how to make links to such things but a good google should get you there.

Stanron, that is just utter revisionism. Simplistic in the extreme. There is no way that a miners' victory would have ended democracy and you know it. That's almost as bad as Mother Teresa saying that abortion was the biggest threat to world peace. On top of that, I'd suggest that Thatcher was more than happy to see Heath wallow in his inept handling of the miners. Can't argue that the miners adopted brilliant tactics, but the very fact we can talk about tactics in an industrial dispute into which the government waded demonstrates a failure of the government to engage with its workers in a constructive dialogue. Which is their job. And if you don't think that Maggie hated trade unions, try explaining away the mass of anti-trade union legislation that she instigated.