BS: NATO in Europe-

Subject: BS: NATO in Europe-
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 17 - 12:31 PM

Are we reassuring our allies after putting the knife in Israel's back?



"Ships began unloading U.S. tanks, self-propelled howitzers and hundreds of other fighting vehicles Friday in the northern German port of Bremerhaven, to be moved into Eastern Europe to bolster NATO's deterrence against possible Russian aggression.

Some 3,500 troops from the 4th Infantry Division in Fort Carson, Colorado, will join up with the equipment, which includes 87 tanks and 144 Bradley fighting vehicles, over the next two weeks.

The deployment marks the start of a new phase of Operation Atlantic Resolve, which foresees the continuous presence of an American armored brigade combat team in Europe on a nine-month rotational basis. The mission is meant to help allay concerns from Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and other NATO allies over an increasingly unpredictable and bellicose Russia.

The new forces will gather first in Poland, then fan out across seven countries from Estonia to Bulgaria. A headquarters unit will be stationed in Germany.

When he announced the move last year, U.S. Defense Secretary Ash Carter said the forces would take part in regular military exercises across the region with NATO allies. At that time, U.S. Army Europe Commander Lt. Gen. Ben Hodges called the deployment the "embodiment of the United States' commitment to deterring aggression and defending our European Allies and partners."

The U.S. also plans to move in a combat aviation brigade with about 10 Chinook and 50 Black Hawk helicopters and 1,800 personnel from Fort Drum, New York, and a battalion with 24 Apache attack helicopters and 400 personnel from Fort Bliss, Texas. They'll be headquartered in Germany with some aircraft positioned in Latvia, Romania and Poland.

Other NATO members are also increasing their presence, with Britain sending fighter jets to the Black Sea area, while a battalion of troops, tanks and light armor will deploy in Estonia in the spring, backed by French and Danish troops. Germany also plans to send troops and tanks to Lithuania.

Albania, Belgium, Canada, Croatia, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Romania and Slovenia are also playing roles in what NATO has dubbed its Enhanced Forward Presence. The U.S. plans to relocate a Stryker unit from Germany to Poland as part of that group.

NATO has already started positioning equipment and ammunition in Eastern Europe to reduce the time it would take additional units to deploy if needed."


http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/us-tanks-roll-germany-bolster-nato-deterrent-44595411

Subject: RE: BS: NATO in Europe-
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jan 17 - 03:31 PM

Well, Bruce, adding the Israel comment spreads the discussion over a wide swath, but OK.
I don't think the U.S. "put the knife to Israel's back." I think the U.S. failure to veto was a measured attempt to push for moderation in the Israel-Palestine impasse. Most Israelis have known for decades that the Israeli settlements on the West Bank are unwise and unnecessarily provocative (and ridiculously expensive to defend), but political intricacies have prohibited them from stopping the settlements - a right-wing minority has blackmailed the majority into continuing the settlements. But we have discussed Israel in countless other threads, so maybe it's best to leave that discussion there.

NATO is an interesting topic that we haven't discussed much. Trump's statements against NATO and favoring Putin, have been unsettling in all of Eastern Europe, especially in the Baltic States of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. Many of these countries have large Russian populations remaining from Soviet times, and Putin has used this as a rationalization for some sort of "manifest destiny." I think it's clear that the majority populations of these countries have no wish to be controlled by Russia again, and I think it's important that remain steadfast in our commitment to NATO. In his campaign rhetoric, Trump has betrayed that commitment, and I think that was a very unwise thing to do. I think it is essential that he express a firm support for NATO - now, and continually.

I served in Army Intelligence (ASA) in Berlin during the Cold War, and I have traveled quite a bit in Eastern Europe in recent years. I know where my sympathies lie, and they're not with Russia.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: NATO in Europe-
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jan 17 - 03:49 PM

I would not have thought that 87 tanks would cause any lack of sleep in the Kremlin.

Subject: RE: BS: NATO in Europe-
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 17 - 03:58 PM

Joe,

Re NATO,

I think if you look at what Trump said, that he wanted the other NATO nations to contribute more than they had. I am strongly in favor of supporting the independence of the Baltic states and Poland, and feel we let Ukraine down.

But when others complain about the "Trump Aggression", building up NATO, I hope you remember what administration is doing this expansion ( which I happen to agree with, even if it looks to me like something required by those nations after our "support" of Israel.)



As for Israel, the statement that Jerusalem is occupied territory will not stand. From 1948 through 1967 it WAS, and Jews prohibited from their most holy sites. Since 1967, the Israelis have bent over backwards to give control of the Temple Mount to Moslims- and been kicked in the balls for it.

If Israel treated the Palestinians like the Arabs treated all Jews from 1948 to 1967, I doubt if there would be any approval of that- BUT it would be more just than what the UN resolution declares.

Subject: RE: BS: NATO in Europe-
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jan 17 - 04:24 PM

The only aggression in Ukraine is from the West by the oil companies and the GMO companies.

Subject: RE: BS: NATO in Europe-
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 17 - 04:33 PM

The only thing despots like Putin respect is force and like the typical bully he will back down in the face of it. Being a bully he recognized and exploited Obama's weakness and marched into Crimea, east Ukraine and Syria. I applaud Canada's role in leading a robust multinational NATO battlegroup in Latvia.