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Req: translation from Latin: Breve Regnum Erigitur

Stower 13 Jan 17 - 03:40 PM
Joe Offer 13 Jan 17 - 04:28 PM
Joe Offer 13 Jan 17 - 04:35 PM
Stower 13 Jan 17 - 06:44 PM
Joe Offer 13 Jan 17 - 07:41 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 13 Jan 17 - 09:18 PM
Joe Offer 13 Jan 17 - 09:46 PM
Monique 14 Jan 17 - 03:25 AM
Stower 14 Jan 17 - 04:42 AM
FreddyHeadey 14 Jan 17 - 06:59 AM
Stower 14 Jan 17 - 10:08 AM
Jack Campin 14 Jan 17 - 08:52 PM
Joe Offer 15 Jan 17 - 03:07 AM
Stower 15 Jan 17 - 02:28 PM
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Subject: Lyr Req: Song translation from Latin, please
From: Stower
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 03:40 PM

Are there any Latin speakers who could translate the following, please? It's a Polish 15th century Cracow Academy students' song. I'd like a literal translation in the same format, line by line, so I can then play with the language to bring it to the same rhythm and rhyme scheme in English.

Breve regnum erigitur,
Sublimatum deprimitur
Et depressum elabitur
Transmutato tempore.

Puerilem miliciam,
Perargutam periciam,
Regencium industriam,
Hanc eduxit in opere.

Cracoviensem filium,
Fulgentem velut lilium
Ac de numero milium
Cunctis preferendum.

Octo dierum spacium
Hoc sustinet solacium,
Post hoc regis pallacium
Plagis feriendum.

Namque regis elleccio
Fit studii negleccio
Ac desolatur leccio
Tota septimana.


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Subject: RE: Req: translation from Latin Breve Regnum Erigitur
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 04:28 PM

Hi, Stower -
Gee, it's things like this that remind me how little I know after 6 years of Latin study. I hope you don't mind that I changed the thread title to specify the song we're talking about, so we can make it into a study of the song and not just a translation.

It's an interesting song, although what I'm finding about it so far is in Russian and Polish. Here's a YouTube video: Here's another recording, with photos from Krakow's Jagellonian University:


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Subject: RE: Req: translation from Latin Breve Regnum Erigitur
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 04:35 PM

I suppose a good first step would be to go to Google and search for translate latin to english. Then I paste the Latin into the text box that appears, and English magically comes out the other side (more or less - less, in this case).
And then I take out my Oxford Latin Desk Dictionary and try to translate the untranslatable - finding that most of the untranslated words are not in my dictionary. And I wonder why Oxford no longer has a really good Latin dictionary, like my old Cassel's was. So, anyhow, I'll put my changes in parentheses over the next few days. I hope others will post their attempts below, and I will add them in parentheses to this work in progress.
But now I have other things to do.

Breve regnum erigitur,
Sublimatum deprimitur
Et depressum elabitur
Transmutato tempore.

Puerilem miliciam,
Perargutam periciam,
Regencium industriam,
Hanc eduxit in opere.

Cracoviensem filium,
Fulgentem velut lilium
Ac de numero milium
Cunctis preferendum.

Octo dierum spacium
Hoc sustinet solacium,
Post hoc regis pallacium
Plagis feriendum.

Namque regis elleccio
Fit studii negleccio
Ac desolatur leccio
Tota septimana.
Brief kingdom raised, (the kingdom rules briefly)
brandy lowered (the heights have been brought down)
And depressed slips (and what was brought low, has slipped away)
Transmutato time. (and time is changed)

Childlike nobility,
Perargutus Warren (huh? wittiness something)
Regencium industry (industry rules)
This brought in the work.

Cracoviensem son (Son of Krakow)
Shining like a lily
And the number of miles
While preferred.

The space of eight days
This supports the strengthening,
After this the king pallacium (king's palace)
Stripes strike.

For the Elleccio (and so I elect)
Fit study negleccio (to neglect my studies)
And ruined the lesson
The whole week.


So, I'm hoping you catch on to what this is all about: a 14th-century description of the age-old student quandary: to drink, or to study. Even in Poland, it was a problem.


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Subject: RE: Req: translation from Latin: Breve Regnum Erigitur
From: Stower
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:44 PM

Thanks so much, Joe. I tried Google translation tools, but some words weren't translated, some translated to words I don't think are English, and much of what was left is incomprehensible to me! What you've done above is making more sense of it than I've been able to make till now. Some of it is still a mystery. What are depressed slips? What do the second and third verses mean?

The context of the song is reminiscent of the ecclesiastical medieval Feast of Fools. In 15th century Kraków, every year for 7 days from the 15th of October, students took over the running of the university. They elected a student king, who made rules for the week. They missed lectures and indulged in a week-long party. When the week was over, the 'king' was held responsible for all misdeeds and excesses and punished by the university, which doesn't seem like a good deal to me!

The story of the manuscript, PL-Wn MS III.8054, previously Krasinski 52, colloquially known as Kras 52, now in the Polish National Library in Warsaw, is quite a tale. Krasiński Library, Warsaw, where it was previously kept, was set alight by the Nazis in 1944. The manuscript only survived because it was stolen by one of the Nazi soldiers. It was only returned to Poland and seen for what it is after it ended up in Munich Library then spotted in 1948 by a Polish scholar who wasn't looking for it but recognised what it was.   

I look forward to seeing your progress over the next few days, and thank you so much.


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Subject: RE: Req: translation from Latin: Breve Regnum Erigitur
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 07:41 PM

I bought the Oxford Latin Desk Dictionary from Amazon last summer, thinking it would be equal to the quality of the Oxford Concise German and Spanish dictionaries that I like so much. Well, the "Desk Dictionary" is more-or-less worthless, so my struggles with it this afternoon inspired me to write a critical review on Amazon, and to order a Cassell's Latin Dictionary (which I hope is like the one I used to have).

I'm guessing "depressum elabitur" is going to mean something like
"sad feelings are expressed."

It's a rather entertaining rhyme scheme, but I think it makes for some fairly obscure Latin. In the first verse, every line but the last ends with a verb in the passive voice, third person singular. This is Polish college student Latin, not Cicero.

Oy.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Req: translation from Latin: Breve Regnum Erigitur
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 09:18 PM

The original poster does not supply a tune.

IMHO - it appears to be a spoof of "Gaudeamus Igitur".

I do not understand Mr Joe how you believe those two youtube misfits are related.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

What an amazing world God hath wept.


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Subject: RE: Req: translation from Latin: Breve Regnum Erigitur
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 09:46 PM

How the two are related, garg?

Ahhhhhhh....the words?

The melodies are somewhat similar, but the words in both are the same as what's posted above.

And yes, I guess you could say it follows along the schoolboy Latin vein of "Gaudeamus Igitur," and all those Ivy League songbooks with Latinized names like "Carmina Princetonienses."

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Req: translation from Latin: Breve Regnum Erigitur
From: Monique
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 03:25 AM

Tools for Latin and other languages.


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Subject: RE: Req: translation from Latin: Breve Regnum Erigitur
From: Stower
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 04:42 AM

I didn't think to supply a tune, but it is a great one. Here it is.


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Subject: RE: Req: translation from Latin: Breve Regnum Erigitur
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 06:59 AM

I wondered if you'd find people to help on a Latin discussion forum like
http://latindiscussion.com/forum/forums/latin-to-english-translation.1/ . I don't know if you have to join up though.


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Subject: RE: Req: translation from Latin: Breve Regnum Erigitur
From: Stower
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 10:08 AM

Thanks, Freddy. I just joined up and couldn't see how to post, then saw the notice, "You have insufficient privileges to post here." Oh well, it was a nice thought.

Monique, thanks for the link to Tools for Latin. I may resort to that eventually. Idioms are difficult to spot for a non-user of a language, so for the time being I'll hold out for someone who knows Latin.


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Subject: RE: Req: translation from Latin: Breve Regnum Erigitur
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 08:52 PM

Translation into Polish any good?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opqGxJnjeis


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Subject: RE: Req: translation from Latin: Breve Regnum Erigitur
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 03:07 AM

I have a decent Latin dictionary on order, and should be able to do a better translation when it arrives.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Req: translation from Latin: Breve Regnum Erigitur
From: Stower
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 02:28 PM

Thanks, Jack. I'd have to have it translated from Polish! I'd also have a question about how much liberty the Polish translation has taken, as it scans and has been versified, and some liberties are sometimes necessary in that process. I want to versify myself in English, but from the Latin so that I know I'm working on the Latin only, not also ideas the Polish versifier introduced.

Via John Robinson, who does the tablature books for the lute society, I have been in touch with Mathias Rösel, who has very kindly sent me his translation from the Latin, as follows:

A shortly lasting kingdom is raised
Extolled, it is lowered
And depressed, it slips away
As time has been changed

Boyish / childish soldiery
Very witty experience
Hard work of leaders
That's what it brought up for real

A son of Cracow
Shining like a lily
Even from thousands
To be preferred to all

In a period of eight days
It maintains this comfort
After that, the king's palace
Must be blown with strokes

To wit the king's choice
Turns into disregard of study
And lecture is left lonely
The whole week

Joe, this doesn't mean I wouldn't value your view, too, as translation has elements of interpretation.


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