What is your session like?

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Mar 17 - 11:56 AM

Perhaps I should stress that we offer everyone the chance to lead off - quite often people choose to pass. No pressure.

And, although we try to be inclusive, we don't always just go round a circle. Sometimes we break up a string of tunes with a song - and vice versa - as long as everyone gets a chance, should they want it.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: leeneia
Date: 30 Mar 17 - 11:32 AM

In our session, music is projected on the white living-room wall. We have a melody, chords and usually one or two other parts. In addition, we have our Favorites books, notebooks in which are stored the pieces that we really liked. Sometimes we use music stands and the notebooks.

The projecting can be done using transparencies. Sometimes the music has been scanned and then it can be projected with a computer projector. We usually do this at Christmas time.

I usually pick the first piece, then I tell others to pick pieces. That way I'm not responsible for everybody's happiness.

It costs money, but it keeps everybody from spending more time thinking of pieces to play than they spend playing.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: Johnny J
Date: 30 Mar 17 - 11:26 AM

Yes, I agree.

As long as there is a space or opportunity to start a tune and things aren't too fast and furious, it's actually a better environment for less experienced players than some more formal arrangements.

For me, being "encouraged" and/or cajoled into playing or singing used to be the most intimidating thing of all. Even now, if I'm not in the mood or the situation isn't quite right I still don't like to feel pressurised.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: alex s
Date: 30 Mar 17 - 11:18 AM

An unstructured session can take the pressure off the less experienced or shy performers who don't like being put on the spot by "it's your turn now". I go to both types and prefer the no pressure approach. Hoggers are politely told to let others have a go and we've had no problems so far.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Mar 17 - 11:03 AM

We-e-e-ll... you can have a scenario where people "take turns" to lead off on something, and everyone joins in - and that is certainly one form of a session. Semantics don't matter - it's what actually happens that matters.

What's the inherent value in an evening's music being unstructured? I would have thought that giving everyone of whatever standard the chance to lead off on something would (a) encourage the lesser-skilled players (b) prevent others hogging the choice of tunes.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: Johnny J
Date: 30 Mar 17 - 10:17 AM

This thread has demonstrated that there are a wide variety of possibilities out there and we all have different ideas of what constitutes an ideal session.

Not only that, there are conflicting ideas as to what a session actually is.

In the strictest sense,IMO, it is a gathering of tune players and is predominantly instrumental although most reasonable people wouldn't object to the odd song here and there either from one of the tune players or a singer in the bar.
However, I realise that there are other arrangements featuring singer/strummers and so on which could be loosely described as sessions.
The important thing though is whatever arrangement you adopt, it should be as "unstructured" as possible. A scenario where everyone "takes turns" to sing a song or play a piece isn't really a session. Nor is picking tunes from tune books, song books etc behind the music stand and so.
It may be still be very enjoyable, useful, and worthwhile(I'm not going to knock it or suggest that such practices should be proscribed) but it's still something else.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: Marje
Date: 30 Mar 17 - 08:12 AM

Guest, above: I was also at a festival "session" led by a couple who sat there with books and music stands, just working their way through their repertoire. A few of us turned up with instruments and songs at the ready, and were completely ignored. Eventually the leaders were served a meal (it appeared to be part of a deal struck with the pub) so the rest of us seized the opportunity and did our own tunes and songs, but as soon as they'd finished eating, the couple continued their little performance, still as if we weren't there. Even a brief "Have you come far?" or something would have been nice - it was a small festival and there were only a few of us.
To me, that was just bad manners.

Marje

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 30 Mar 17 - 06:03 AM

Will Fly: I think it's easy to be too dogmatic with the use of the terms "singaround" and "session". On the one hand you have a circle of singers who take turns to sing a song, with or without accompaniment from the rest of the circle - and no tunes. On the other you have a gathering of instrumental players who all play together on sets of tunes - with no songs.

All very well, but in reality there are many, many different shadings - conventions, if you like - between the black of the one and the white of the other.

Absolutely, Will. The great thing about the Ditchling session is its variety. In a 30 minute window we can go from English, Scottish or Irish tunes through unaccompanied traditional song, through to Music Hall songs via jazz and folk revival and back to tunes again. By the strict definitions that "Guest" and others seem to want to apply it's a total mish-mash.

But it's lively, varied, interesting, welcoming to participants of every standard (though the general standard is very high)and a real joyous night out. By far the best "session" ( and I will call it a session!) I go (or indeed have ever gone) to. I travel an hour each way to it, and would happily travel 2 if necessary!

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 30 Mar 17 - 05:54 AM

Pete (Seven Stars) The sing around that I participate in , in Kent GB ( perhaps the one rob referred to ) has the go round in turn set up , join in unless objected to , welcome all and most any style set up . Often a bit of banter etc between songs or tunes . Most listen respectfully though of late we have a few joining who chat to each other and discuss what they will do next their turn . But overall a friendly encouraging group to all comers

No,different sessions Pete. I rarely get to the one you're referring to these days. Not through lack of enthusiasm for it, but it now clashes with one of my regular fitness sessions, and even if I could dive into the car and drive up immediately afterwards, I'd have to leave early because most Tuesdays I have to be up at 0400 to travel to Devon for work! I do intent to get there again soon though.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 30 Mar 17 - 03:30 AM

ME - I like a session where you can try out something, others join in, and if lucky 2 + 2 = 5. I'm less keen on solo performers, or endless repetitions of the well known.

Perhaps we need a new vocabulary for sessions, that give prospective joiners inners more of a clue.
FloraG

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 17 - 02:23 AM

The main thing is that everybody has the same expectations. The most painful (instrumental) session I ever saw was at a festival, lead by 2 festival guests. They were both people used to "jump in" type and expected to be simply "pump priming" to get things started and to fill in any gaps. From the body language the other participants seemed to be expecting to be asked to play their party pieces in turn.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 08:35 PM

The 3 events I'm most likely to get to differ. I'd class none as places for showing off but.

One (strictly Irish tunes), you do need some experience and (although I fall far sort of this) perhaps need to understand that the main core who have played together for many years are of the 1000+ repertoire types. It is friendly but not a place for a beginner.

The other at least mostly Irish one is more "relaxed" but I wouldn't imagine more than one or two sets being played at a really slow pace in the evening.

With both these, anyone can start a tune set off as and when and others will join in with support (at least if it's something that fits the night).

The third (much closer to where I live) tends more towards a sing/tune around format with things generally moving round the room and more "anything goes".

I'd guess this one would be the one Kim C would enjoy most but really all 3 of these sessions do have their merits.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: alex s
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 06:34 PM

I find that in an unstructured session, which is what I prefer, the good musicians are often reluctant to jump in and have to be encouraged to start something. The better the musician the smaller the ego???

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: Marje
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 03:28 PM

I run (I use the term loosely) a mixed session in Devon. It's a free-for-all setup, but the regulars look out for anyone new or timid and invite them to contribute. It's mostly tunes, with the odd song and a fair bit of crack and chat in between times. I don't think anyone hogs it; I certainly don't, and if I find I hardly ever need to start a tune because the music is flowing so freely, I'm happy.

In the same pub there is also, on a different night, a traditional song session. Until recently this has been run on a round-the-room basis, but the leader is now experimenting with a "jump-in" system. I don't mind much either way, but some singers don't like this and I think there may soon be a mutiny.

It does seem that the open system of starting a tune whenever you like works better, and is more common, for instrumental and mixed sessions than for song sessions. It's got a lot to do with the participatory nature of tune-playing: once a tune gets going, people are hardly aware who started it, so it doesn't much matter whose turn is next. Songs, on the other hand, are owned by the singer, and often performed entirely solo, so having "your" turn at a predictable point is more important to some singers.

Marje

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: GUEST,Guest Tim
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 03:08 PM

Our Sunday session which was started by the late lamented Matt Armour at the Vaults Bar Stony Stratford on Sunday Lunchtimes could not be more inclusive. Matt always welcomed anyone however good or bad and his legacy lives on.
No egos and in general it's rammed every week with both performers and listeners.., a model some other sessions could look at.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 02:55 PM

The question was "What is your session like ?" Why are you discussing "singarounds" ? Two different things to me.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 02:48 PM

The vast majority of sessions and singarounds are run by organiser(s) and advertised if only by word of mouth. There is usually some sort of etiquette involved. It should not be too difficult to ascertain what that etiquette is before attending, or even at the session itself by asking. If that etiquette is not to your liking then don't go, find another or start your own.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 01:56 PM

The sing around that I participate in , in Kent GB ( perhaps the one rob referred to ) has the go round in turn set up , join in unless objected to , welcome all and most any style set up . Often a bit of banter etc between songs or tunes . Most listen respectfully though of late we have a few joining who chat to each other and discuss what they will do next their turn . But overall a friendly encouraging group to all comers .

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 01:28 PM

I go to a number of different sessions in and around Edinburgh and the Lothians (as well as those I frequent at festivals further afield). Most of these are "mixed sessions" i.e. both songs and tunes in varying proportions according to who turns up. Some are "round the room in order", others are "jump-in". In one of the latter, I keep an eye who has played/sung or not, and perhaps suggest that anyone who has not yet played/sung gets a shot. This does not usually cause any grief, and may be welcomed by the more timid souls.
In one of the "round the room" sessions, there will be a session host who will call for the tunes players to start a set of tunes, perhaps after a couple of songs: recently this has been modified to ask individual tunes players to lead a set, rather than treating the whole bunch of tunes players as a single entity, and this approach has gone down well.
Hopefully in all of these sessions, we take the trouble to find out the names of any newcomers and where they are from and introduce them to the crowd by name.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 09:45 AM

Jack Campin I much prefer "anyone can jump in" to "everyone gets their turn in sequence" - taking turns leads to people abusing their slot to waste time shuffling through books or tuning, which loses all the energy and momentum that may have developed. If you can't be off and playing in ten seconds, pass.

I don't see that at the sessions I go to. There are 3 that I attend when I can, in Kent, Sussex and Devon. All operate "roughly" on a sequence basis ( but a couple of them have the strict sequences punctuated sometimes by one or other of the "mainstay" attendees leading off on a tune or song for all to join in). No-one faffs with books or tuning at any of them....if you're not quick to start when your turn comes around, as per your last sentence, the opportunity passes on.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 08:45 AM

That sort of thing doesn't happen very often, and it sounds like you dealt with it ok. It's not a problem with the jump-in protocol itself.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: jojofolkagogo
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 08:37 AM

Well, I absolutely HATE 'jump ins' - went 2 one of these some long time ago in Stoke on Trent (uk) and this chap had a concertina and with his back to the crowd played all night without a break (I kid u not) until he went to the loo - when TWO of the crowd had a chance to sing. When he returned he seemed very surprised that someone was singing - but carried on playing again. As no-one said anything 2 him (no-one in charge) I told himto hos face that he had been the mistm selfish person I had ever come across at a club. He did not like it but then the truth always hurts.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 04:39 AM

At instrumental sessions, I'm rather shy about my abilities (or lack thereof) as an instrumentalist, so I'm happy to hide in a corner and try to play along softly.

That's exactly backwards. If you're less technically able than most of the people around you, it's much better if you do lead as much as possible, because that way you'll be playing at your best and they can reinforce you, at a pace you're comfortable with. Try to follow all the time and it'll feel to them like you're getting under their feet.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 03:50 AM

I think it's easy to be too dogmatic with the use of the terms "singaround" and "session". On the one hand you have a circle of singers who take turns to sing a song, with or without accompaniment from the rest of the circle - and no tunes. On the other you have a gathering of instrumental players who all play together on sets of tunes - with no songs.

All very well, but in reality there are many, many different shadings - conventions, if you like - between the black of the one and the white of the other. And those conventions are set by those who created the "sessionaround" in the first place. And, as long as all who attend are aware of the parameters and abide by them, everything works well.

It's music - remember? I've taken it very seriously for the greater part of my life- made money from it in fact - but not so seriously that I kowtow to rigid and arbitrary rules about how to make it for fun.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 08:58 PM

I, though I'm in California, have the same understanding as Steve - sessions are instrumental, and singarounds are vocal (sometimes accompanied by instruments). But nonetheless, the issue is similar for both, so I think we can talk about both.

At instrumental sessions, I'm rather shy about my abilities (or lack thereof) as an instrumentalist, so I'm happy to hide in a corner and try to play along softly. I think I'd die if anybody asked me to introduce a tune. So, I hope people will leave me unmolested in my corner. As long as I'm left alone, I'm happy.

But as a singer, I humbly suggest that I'm "not too bad," so I actively participate in singarounds (mostly in the U.S., but also on occasion in Ireland, Scotland, and England). I try to adhere to local custom when I'm away from home, but I'm more assertive at home in Northern California. I attend two monthly singarounds at home, and they're very different. Since 1993, I've been part of the Sacramento Family Song Circle, which emphasizes community singing out of the Rise Up Singing and Rise Again songbooks. The group is not supposed to have a leader, but I confess that I more-or-less succeeded Bob Fitch as the "alpha male" in the song circle when Bob left*. And then I ended up being associate editor of the Rise Again book, so that kinda sealed things for me. There are a few people in the group who are able to lead songs, so I let them take the lead when it's their turn or when it's a song they do particularly well; but I usually end up starting and carrying most songs. I try to sing underneath the other singers to give them confidence without standing out too much myself. I usually can't sing harmony in this group because too many people follow me; but we're getting better, and that lets me sing harmony on songs that people know well. There is some awkwardness at times, but usually we pull it off pretty well, especially if we have good instrumentalists present.

About 10 years ago, a woman named Sharon Carl moved to the city of Auburn, California - about 12 miles from my home. Sharon had been a member of the "In Harmony's Way" group in the East San Francisco Bay area, and she started a group she calls "In Harmony's Way Up In Auburn." Sharon also hosts instrumental sessions and house concerts, and she has single-handedly transformed the "music scene" (I hate that term) in our area. We meet on the third and fifth Sunday afternoons of every month, and it is the most welcoming and supportive singaround I have ever attended. We welcome both beginners and professionals, and everybody has a good time. Sharon started out reading "the rules" at the beginning of every session, and the rest of us (often led by Joe Offer) took delight in defying "the rules" - and Sharon eventually stopped referring to "the rules." But she set a tone of mutual respect and acceptance, and that has stuck with us. The expectation is that we show up prepared to sing three songs for and with the others. We sing a lot of chorus songs, so that everyone is included. Instruments are welcome, but instrumentalists should play only if invited by the person whose turn it is. We had one guy who wanted to play his tambourine on every song, so I made a point of chanting "the rules" (gee, it's good to have rules). He doesn't come very often any more, but his wife does.

-Joe-

*Bob dated many women in the song circle, and I dated a few after he left. I met my wife at the Sacramento Song Circle when she was Bob's date. So, the term "alpha male" has a number of implications....

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: Gozz
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 05:28 PM

No,Steve, I stick with my terminology. We refer to our gathering as a session, because tune players are welcomed as well and we have also developed a culture of joining in with others, accompanying them, harmonising with them etc if their offering is suited to this (and they do not mind). We do not go around the room each listening to what others perform, we each get a chance to lead, but more often than not all join in whether picking a stringed instrument or using their voice as an accompanying instrument. It is more relaxed than many singarounds that I have encountered and if those who started it want to call it a session, who am I to argue.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 05:01 PM

"No carping, no criticism - tolerance and friendship essential" well said

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 05:00 PM

We seem to have a problem with terminology here. A singaround and a session in all the places I've been are quite different things and have totally different etiquettes.

Doing something in the round is not strictly speaking a session. I used to run a squeezaround at Whitby Festival but it was definitely not a session or advertised as such. It was open to all box players and each player in turn talked about his/her instrument, played a solo and then led a tune set for all to join in.

Certainly arrogance or lack of awareness can lead to someone taking over and usually at twice the speed. Then it is up to the session organiser or an experienced/respected participant to speak up.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: Gozz
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 04:06 PM

One thing no one seems prepared to acknowledge so far in this discussion is that sometime arrogance and ego can take over a session. This can happen at tune, song or mixed sessions, but I have most encountered it at tune sessions or those where tunes are predominant.

Having said that, I have to say the the mostly song session I attend every week when I am not at a festival is very inclusive. We go around the room in turn, we encourage newcomers to join in, without putting on pressure, we welcome all who attend. We do allow "words" to be used, because all have to start somewhere and sometimes new singers need that safety net.

As a result, there are a number of newish, good singers, performing in a local pub, who would otherwise just be singing to themselves at home. Now others can enjoy them and they have gained so much from it as well.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 03:53 PM

3 of us recently went to a session near us,we were welcomed invited and encouraged to start tunes I suppose it depends where you go.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 02:52 PM

I find there are often at least 2 types of sessions. The most common is the free-for-all where there is always plenty of opportunity to start a tune and the accepted norm is everybody who can joins in. These are fun and very welcoming for both beginners and experienced. Singers are also usually welcomed as long as they don't dominate.

The second type is usually set up by a group of professional musicians and they want to play their music in their style and at their pace whilst tolerating others joining in who know the tune. Here you should wait to be invited before leading off a tune. This IS their prerogotive as they set up the session. If you don't like what you see you go elsewhere or set up your own session.

I'm happy with both of these. I understand the second option isn't very encouraging for beginners but there are other options.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 01:36 PM

Our sessions are always punctuated by jokes and chatter - particularly when an unusual piece is played or sung - and, at one session in particular, there are no music stands and pieces of paper. No rule against it, mind you, just people committed to not using them.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 01:27 PM

Perhaps you could have a wee break after an hour and half or so, say ten minutes. Then suggest or announce that the second half be for those who had not yet had a chance to play or sing. Just a thought.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: GUEST,Kim C
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 01:04 PM

All good points and suggestions. Thank you. :-)

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: Johnny J
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 12:49 PM

Almost agree, Jack.

Sometimes, there's not always a gap to "jump in" and some players aren't too keen in providing one.

It's nice when there's a short pause and one of the main players will ask "Have you got something?" or similar?

Turns are OK but you have to be ready to play or sing especially in a busy situation. OK if there's just a few of you there as you also need "natural breaks" from time to time. After all, the original sessions were also social gatherings for a blether and "the craic" and not necessarily relentless tunes or songs all night.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 12:40 PM

I much prefer "anyone can jump in" to "everyone gets their turn in sequence" - taking turns leads to people abusing their slot to waste time shuffling through books or tuning, which loses all the energy and momentum that may have developed. If you can't be off and playing in ten seconds, pass.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 12:17 PM

I help to run two sessions - one of which I founded about 8 or 9 years ago - both in pubs in or near to my village.

The principles in both sessions are quite clear:

Everyone gets a turn to lead off on something - playing or singing with everyone welcome to join in. Those that don't want to be joined by other players can say so.

Mainly tunes with a few vocals in one session, and mainly vocals with a few tunes in the other.

All equally welcome, regardless of standard or type of music played or sung.

Both sessions are strictly acoustic - no amplification.

No carping, no criticism - tolerance and friendship essential.

They're well attended and great fun - and the pub landlords are welcoming as well.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: GUEST,Kim C
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 11:16 AM

Yeah, I know. I just wanted to hear some other folks' experiences.

It's an established session, but it's open and in a public place. I've been going to it for a few years now, and it still seems odd to me, because I came from an "in the round" atmosphere where everyone gets a turn. It just bugs me a little that it's not like that.

But oh well. I'm not in charge, so I just roll with it. *shrug*

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: Johnny J
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 11:09 AM

Kim,

Is it "your session", "everybody's session" or does it actually belong to the 3 or 4 people who dominate it? In that they started it and are the main stays?

All sessions are different, of course, but if it was set up for everybody it's wrong for just a few people to "hog it". On the other hand, newcomers and visitors to an established session have to respect the regulars' way of doing things. It really all depends on what the set up is.

I'm not fond of "show offs" either but there's a difference between that and just playing what you know. Experienced musicians are bound to know a lot more in the way of tunes and while it's nice to encourage beginners at a session it's still good to draw material from the full range of your repertoire too.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: GUEST,Kim C
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 11:07 AM

Oh, they're aware.

Manitas, I totally get that, but I also don't think asking other attendees to play once in awhile is compromising on anything, considering most of our attendees are all experienced players.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 11:02 AM

Or perhaps they started the session, made it open for anybody but don't feel they should compromise on the material or the standard they want to play themselves.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 10:59 AM

Well. I would say that you either need some rules or you need to speak to those who take over the session.Perhaps they are not aware that they are hogging playing time ?

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: GUEST,Kim C
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 10:51 AM

Well, that would be *my* idea of a session, but my local one doesn't seem to work out that way. I mean, it's a pleasant evening of music, but at least half of the people who show up to play get very little playing time because of 3-4 people dominating the session.

Subject: RE: What is your session like?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 10:48 AM

Ours is just people coming to play or sing, all are welcome and we do get new people coming in..just a pleasant evening of music. What else should it be...

Subject: What is your session like?
From: GUEST,Kim C
Date: 28 Mar 17 - 10:28 AM

Is your local session a time to welcome newcomers, foster learning, and encourage the perpetuation of tradition, or is it a time for a few people to show off everything they know?