BS: stay afloat while others don't

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: meself
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 02:52 PM

It seems that substance-abuse is often a response to underlying, and usually undiagnosed, psychological/emotional/mental issues (depression, ADHD, FAS, etc.); hence the term 'self-medicating'. Criminal behaviour is often linked as well. Most people behind bars were probably in desperate need of mental health therapy long before their legal troubles began. Knowing this doesn't necessarily make such people any easier to deal with, though ... you do have to keep yourself healthy before you can help anyone else - and that might necessitate avoiding the people you wish you could help.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 02:22 PM

That's really interesting! It's as if repeated use of a certain part of the brain over time causes it to be disabled, and it can no longer produce pleasure.
It goes to show that most drug use isn't good for us if done to excess and for a long time.

The heroin addicts I worked with in prisons as a volunteer had managed to get 'clean' quite a few times, but nearly always slipped backwards and started injecting again. In those days (I don't know about now) they were prescribed Methadone or Subutex to help them, but it became obvious to me that their addictions were deep-seated and almost part of their psyche. They seemed unable to function once off the drugs, and only felt 'right' when back on the stuff.
That's why it's best to distance oneself from people who are addicted, and let them find their own path (or not). I gave up the voluntary work eventually as I could see no progress, and left them to the Prison Officers, Health Centre staff, Chaplains and doctors. Poor young lads, I fear they were really doomed.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: keberoxu
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 01:43 PM

In my decades of seeking counseling, before my counselor changed professions, my anti-depressant meds came from my general practitioner, as they do now. My counselor did not write prescriptions, ever. But this person had to have a working acquaintance of some kind with prescribed substances.

My counselor had this to say about MDMA. Used heavily and consistently over time, it does something that the casual user would not expect. The casual user gets the temporary euphoria, resulting from MDMA engaging with a specific brain activity. But abuse/heavy-use of MDMA affects that very part of the brain in an adverse way, my counselor told me. That part of the brain, which has access to euphoria, becomes disabled instead. My counselor said: "It's a lifetime sentence of depression."

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 07:40 AM

Loads of clubbers take Ecstasy tablets and seem to come to no harm, as you say Jack. Among the drug users I spoke to, the substances which caused aggression were speed and cocaine. Opiates and cannabis gave rise to torpor and demotivation. Ecstasy merely induces euphoria,
although in some cases it can cause overheating of the body and resultant dangerous dehydration.
I believe some people (and as keberoxu says, it does seem to be genetic) are predisposed to addictions, whether it be alcohol, food, drugs or other substances. I seem to remember an article in which scientists claimed to have found such a gene among quite a significant proportion of people of Irish origin. But of course, social norms and cultures also play their part.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 07:17 AM

MDMA (E, ecstasy) is pretty harmless for most people but the ones who get fucked up by it REALLY get fucked up. It seems to start delusional hatreds that can last a lifetime. Anyone who manages to combine a dependency on that stuff with being physically abusive is well beyond communicating with.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 04:33 AM

MDMA is Ecstasy. I expect a user of a 'recreational drug' would be tempted to try other more addictive substances too, as this is the general pattern.
I've seen families with addictive traits 'in their genes'.
You have such a clear and sensible overview of your family and their problems keberoxu, that I reckon you will look after yourself and keep your distance.
Thinking of you.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: keberoxu
Date: 11 Apr 17 - 07:45 PM

Cannot tell you how much I needed each and every word from all of you. Heartfelt thanks.

A note to clarify. My post does indeed say spouse-hitting. I'm not the person who was hit, although it is true that the person doing the hitting is a blood relative.

Yes, my extended family has a living room large enough to accommodate De Nial River as well as more elephants than I can keep count of!
The drug user in question is using MDMA -- called something else, on the street -- that I know of, maybe other substances I don't know of.
The addiction elephant has been around for generations. The earliest alcoholic I know of was a direct ancestor who died, at an advanced age, in 1915. Those descendants of his, who were not alcoholics or users, were expected to enable, cover up, and protect everybody from the consequences of their behavior.   There is a self-identified alcoholic in my generation for example; last time I had a conversation with this latter person, we had a big fight and we will probably never speak again. I don't know of any of my relatives, with chemical dependencies, going for treatment or confronting the fact that they have an illness. The whole famn damily is just expected to be sick right along with them.

I am reminded of, I think it was the Nobel-winning Max Planck:

"Science progresses funeral by funeral."

That's true of some families as well. Sorry that is so down, but it's life, at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: olddude
Date: 11 Apr 17 - 06:38 PM

My dear friend. Please know lots of us care about you. You can talk about anything. I am so glad you have taken control of the struggle.
And if anyone lays a hand ever again on you let me know.. I will pay a visit they won't like

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: leeneia
Date: 11 Apr 17 - 12:22 PM

And for domestic abuse:

call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1−800−799−7233

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: leeneia
Date: 11 Apr 17 - 12:20 PM

Next time the suicide threat come up, pass your relative a piece of paper with this on it:

National Suicide Prevention Lifeline
Call 1-800-273-8255
Available 24 hours everyday

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Apr 17 - 04:18 AM

I've been re-reading your post keberoxu, and just wanted to add the following:-

Regarding the relative who is 'operatically dropping hints that they can't live with it any more', if these are suicide threats, there are so many agencies they can approach for sympathetic help. Most folk know about the Samaritans for example. And if their despair is due to their situation, they can choose to make changes, move away, become more assertive, get counselling, any number of strategies with which to help themselves.

The person who is using drugs and being physically abusive is particularly someone from whom you need to stay far far away. Their domestic victim/s will probably come to the point where they take protective action. There are various aid agencies who can intervene in domestic violence, including the Police. And I have worked as a volunteer with criminal drug users/addicts, so can say from experience that drug use is extremely difficult to address, and needs the professionals. Even then, the success rates are poor. So you definitely shouldn't even attempt to step in there. Without 'seeing the light' for him/herself, the drug user will almost certainly continue to access drugs, and you will end up exhausted and frustrated.

I feel you've done very well so far in 'saving' yourself and it can't have been easy. It sounds to me as if you may have been a bit of a rescuer in the past, and felt such sympathy and compassion for all these dysfunctional folk that you got sucked in, like a boat in a whirlpool. Now you're paddling strongly in your little canoe towards tranquil waters, and I think you should continue going in that direction. Leave the pirate ship to navigate its own course. If it hits the rocks, it's got nothing to do with you.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 10:37 PM

You have your life and you deserve your life. It is yours. You do not owe anyone anything, and I suspect that you've paid dearly over the years. You say there is an attorney involved; let the attorney handle things. This may sound harsh, but it is probably the best way to go.

I've seen this all too often, and all I can tell you is that "the only way to the other side is through." And you can do it, because others have.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 03:44 AM

I am so sorry for your trials, and wish for you the strength to stay afloat and be a guide to those around you who are struggling and failing.
Prayers and best wishes (I wish I could offer more),
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 03:34 AM

vicarious pain.
Take heart that it is not as bad second hand.
If people ask for help, you will be there. If they don't, all you have is dropping hints about the possibility of solutions.

Don't put yourself between two fighting dogs. You will be preventing them from doing what they do.

As a very insightful GF once said to me "people gravitate towards the familiar" - (not the comfortable). They become inured to it. But you know that surely.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 09 Apr 17 - 10:47 PM

I echo the thoughts of the two previous posters.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: ripov
Date: 09 Apr 17 - 08:27 PM

Listening and - as far as possible - understanding.
As Senoufou says, the first step is accepting the problem exists. While those round you aren't aware that their problems are within themselves, nothing can help them, and if you try, you will wear yourself down, and achieve nothing; although it is hard to see those close to you hurting themslves. And by trying to discuss the problems you saw, you did the right thing.
Look after yourself first. Then, if circumstances change you may be in a position to offer help. But if you wear yourself out, you will be no use even to yourself.

Tony

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Apr 17 - 05:25 PM

I am so sorry keberoxu that you've had such tough times. But I admire your courage, as you obviously sorted yourself out sensibly with medication and by distancing yourself from various toxic contacts.

The people about whom you're concerned are presumably adults, and should be left to find their own solutions (or not). You can't be responsible for their lifestyles or their lack of motivation to change.
Not only will you never manage to change them unless they themselves are willing, you risk going backwards with your own progress, which will do nobody any good. Going 'no contact' sounds to me to be the healthy way for you to deal with what's going on with them.

Your thread title says it all, and in my view you're quite right. Don't sink your own little boat trying to pull unwilling folk out of the water!

Subject: extended family woes
From: keberoxu
Date: 09 Apr 17 - 04:53 PM

I'm scared that no one else will understand what this post/thread is about. This is stuff I was brought up not to talk about.

Earlier BS threads from me have been open about my history of treatment for depression, at least I thought I was being open about it. And how it is still a struggle. I'm still under a doctor's supervision and I remain on meds, I really need them. I know that after trying to get off of them under the doctor's supervision. That was really frightening, to find out how chemical my condition is, and how much I need those meds. I was also raised, after all, not to ask for help.

Keeping my distance from my family of origin is essential for my well-being. I have done this fairly completely. There are still financial and legal, what shall I call them, relationships, which it was best not to alter at the time. So I have an attorney and a representative.
I'm holding my own, fairly stable, although I am far from secure, and I remain vigilant about myself.

The thing on my mind now, is that the people I was raised with, the ones I keep a distance from, are going from bad to worse. And I can't help having, inside, an emotional and psychic response, even as I stay as separate as possible.

This sounds so heartless: but I dare not hop out of my own little boat and go after the people in question who are out of control. I don't dare. I know too well that they are not interested in getting the kind of help that I got twenty years ago when I was in pain myself. I am manoeuvering my own boat as well as I do today, because I got help for myself instead of running to the dysfunctional family bosom.

Now there is a blood relative operatically dropping hints about not being able to live with it any more. And another blood relative using drugs, being abusive domestically, and being enabled and protected all to heck -- De-Nial River flows right through that living room.

Some fifteen years ago I broke my silence and raised my voice about the spouse-hitting, and it certainly did set the cat amongst the pigeons. Maybe things got better for a while. Maybe things are not exactly as they were fifteen years ago when I spoke out. But I said my piece. Now, tough as it is, I have to keep myself sane and well, and not get dragged down in the family maelstrom.

Thanks everyone for listening.