Folk Songs to Ditch

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 29 May 97 - 05:31 PM

H. Burhans!! Could you post those Wedding Song parody lyrics?

also... A comment or two on complaints on folk songs that are really good, just "over-requested, over-played or over-sung".

Not one of the secular "overplayed" songs mentioned above holds candle to the repetition records of some hymns (e.g. Doxology).

There's a Cleveland Folksinger, Tim Wallace, who managed to take one line each from about 25 or so of these songs and weave them into a single song. He did it back during the late '60's folk scare as a way to get all the requests out of the way in one song.

Besides, legions of people who have written or are currently writing and performing great original music, or who have great repertoires of lesser played old-time or folk tunes, cut their teeth as performers on Puff, House of Rising Sun, Edmund Fitzgerald et al., around campfires and at open mikes (yes you did, come on, admit it).

So if repetition of great old songs is what it takes to keep bringing people into this music, its a price worth paying. You would rather Vanilli?

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: JH
Date: 29 May 97 - 05:31 PM

WHILE YOUR AT IT, DUMP, GET RID OF, TRASH, ANYTHING THAT HAS BEEN SUNG OR WRITTEN BY NEIL YOUNG AND THE CRAZY HORSE HE RODE IN ON.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 29 May 97 - 08:58 PM

To Canadian Eh.

I am sitting here typing away, wearing a T-shirt that says "The Edmund Fitzgerald, 1975-1995 The legend lives on."

BUT I am NOT going to sing. I agree with you about the CBC (as I said in my post about the 2 Wade Hemsworth songs.)

Now I am going to make a strenuous effort to find Lightfoot and Hemsworth songs that I really like but NEVER hear anymore. Home From the Forest and Wild Goose spring immediately to mind.

Frank Phillips

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 29 May 97 - 10:11 PM

The tune for "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" is the same as Bobby Sands' "Back Home In Derry" but without the chorus. Which came first? Any ideas?

Cheers,

Alan

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 May 97 - 10:25 PM

Yes I did cut my teeth on House Of The Rising Sun etc, but I'm still for tossing Rise Up Singing, I agree it's fun to get every body singing together but on something that was exiting in the 60's please, give it a rest, there are still uncharted waters out there, the same waters where these old gems came from. My gripe with the old stand bys and books are that the more they get recycled the less we hear of songs that we could complain about in 25 yrs from now, and the effect this has on our expections and standards. Why learn The Rambler From Clare when everyone will sing Danny Boy just ONE MORE TIME. I droped out of singing circles 15 yrs ago when I kept getting asked for the same songs over and over again until I hated the songs and only recently started singing them to my kids. LaMarca you can sing my song to death if you like, I'll take the heat, which brings me to contempory trash. Anyone want a new song about the SUN or MY BABY GIRL or WHAT GROWS IN MY GARDEN that doesn't grow in yours, get a life. It seems that alot the contempory stull thats being aired is written by singers who's talent lies in promoting and alot of the great hard to find songs are dying because of underexposure (see above thread). This leads to the talented singer/songerwriter who needs the exposure to ply their trade like the broadside ballad hawkers of the last century. Again this might lead to the talented getting lumped together with the talentless, at festivals, where cheaper is a major factor of survival, and where traditional & contempory performers may struggle with one another for their bread, and who's to say who's better or who's worth more,(the promoters thats who), and when the venues start to fade away we can all sing COME BY HERE where the clubs, festivals and airwaves used to be. And people call me pathalogicaly affirmative. Barry Finn Cont. may

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 30 May 97 - 08:40 PM

from Joe Offers post up there ^

"and drink beer and sing gospel songs. We did all that in jest, but we put a lot of sincerity into all those corny 60's commercial folk songs - including Kumbayah. Whatever the case, we sure had a good time singing a lot of bad music.

Now I'm in a song circle that uses "Rise Up Singing" as a hymnal. Yes, the book has a lot of corny songs; but I sure have a good time singing them. Isn't that what it's all about?"

-Joe-

Yep, Joe...and some people drink Budweiser and eat at McDonalds. Having a good time singing is a very important part of 'what it's all about'.You may certainly sing...and enjoy...anything you please.But Barry's point (it seems to me)is that an awful lot of stuff is being produced--beer, hamburgers, music--that has very little content and polish, and is simply being 'marketed' like soap, soap operas, sit-coms, bland beer,and pre-cooked veal patties.

Some of the 'navel-gazing' songs done by girl singers who are inspired by Kate Wolfe are really insipid stuff....as were some of the 'oldies' of the sixties.Yes, I know some of them...even sing one now & then...I eat a McDonalds hamburger occasionally, too (though I will NOT drink a Budweiser!) But I do not partake of these things on a 'regular' basis, and I do not extoll their virtues and form "McDonalds eating clubs".

I own a copy of "Rise Up Singing", and every now & then I refer to it...I would not 'throw it out'...and I doubt that Barry expects me to. There are a lot of good songs in it, and it has some real uses. It is not terribly well researched and edited...there are a lot of un-necessary errors in it, but I can deal with that because I also have OTHER sources! When it is the ONLY source, those errors get set in stone in a lot of people's heads, as does the very concept of 'one source'. I have "The Folksingers Wordbook" too--and several other collections & compilations.

So, what's my point? My point is that McDonalds & Anheiser-Busch have enough money & influence to make it difficult for competition, no matter HOW good, and "Rise Up Singing" has put so many copies of their little tome out there(as well as "Rise Up Singing" workshops & seminars), that it has begun to propagate like crabgrass and become, as you say, a hymn book.No one can keep you from worshiping at the altar of your choice, but whenever possible-like 'now'- I will take a few minutes and warn those within earshot that there ARE other (and, to my mind, better) books).

Am I being a 'snob'? Perhaps so, by some standards....I really thing that there are songs(and beers) that we would be better off without, but they are here...and I am a realist. All I can do is enter these discussions and point out my approach to things...you never know when I'll gain a convert by my brilliant analysis. *wink*

I don't think that any folk songs are going to be 'ditched' because of what we say here, but perhaps the nominees will cause some 'folk' to think a bit more about what they sing.

Regards...Bill D

Subject: Songfest, the book
From: Cathy Brady
Date: 31 May 97 - 01:22 AM

It was a yellow paperback in the early 60's. I have never seen Rise up Singing. Is Songfest similar. From it I learned words to Mountain Dew that nobody else seems to use. And a song called Persian Kitty that I've never heard any one else sing.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Will
Date: 31 May 97 - 01:28 AM

Great comments. Just came back from two days at camp with a bunch of fifth grade boys.

I played as many terrible songs as I could think of, as loudly as I could manage, just to drown out their version of "If I had a hammer", which had become a paen to sex and violence.

Whatever is the younger generation coming to?

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Peter Timmerman
Date: 31 May 97 - 01:25 PM

Dear Cathy, in the interests of information and fair play, "Rise Up Singing" is a spiral bound book with about a thousand songs in it, complete with chords, and organized thematically. The themes are, well, sort of like the apotheosis of the 60's (much of the material comes out of the "Sing Out" magazine files and other places).There are also tapes you can buy, and (news to me, but see above contribution) they seem to hold learning sessions. It is actually a pretty good deal for a first book. It has "Up On the Roof" in it, which is not a folk song, and seems to me to be impervious to destruction, so I can stand it personally. Yours, Peter

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 31 May 97 - 02:31 PM

Kathy is thinking of the book by Dick & Beth Best..(my copy is pretty ragged...also my copy of "Songs for Swingin' House Mothers" and my Burl Ives books and my "Hootnanny Songbook"..etc.. I guess it will take a bit longer to wear out the newer ones...and every one deserves a place on my shelf, though they don't get opened as often anymore. I collect almost anything I can find...(as do several other friends in this area...we all have our 'private bookstores which we hope no one else will discover.*smile*) And when we find duplicates, they make fine presents for those we know don't have them...I acquired a wonderful copy of Percy's Reliques recently from a nice lady.(Thanks again...)

So...in having a lot of books and Digitrad & this forum, I am constantly honing & re-defining my tastes and learning new verses and history. The 'folk process' is like evolution...it CAN'T stop unless you totally isolate yourself from outside influences.But that does not mean that it should be hurried along too fast....a 'folk processer' set on 'puree' gives you mush-which is why I don't add just anything to my repertoire...I may have to 'eat' it later...

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Kitdiva
Date: 01 Jun 97 - 12:15 AM

I love this thread. I, too, cast my vote for the Wedding Song, If I were a Carpenter, and Michael row....

I too would be desperately grateful for a copy of Hugh the Manatee. LaMarca, would you be so kind-?!! Plus the parody of the Wedding Song would be wonderful, H. Burhans. Thanks. (And has anyone mentioned, "Today, while the blossoms still cling to the vine"? May they fall off!)

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Peter Timmerman
Date: 01 Jun 97 - 03:51 PM

Dear Cathy, further to above. "Rise Up Singing is edited by Peter Blood and Annie Patterson, copyright 1992. ISBN 0-9626704-7-2. Since my last posting, I have received two e-mails (er, e-males) suggesting (among other things I cannot mention in polite company) that the entire chapter entitled "Men" in "Rise up Singing" should be given a special horror award of merit. So, be on guard.Yours, Peter

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 03 Jun 97 - 05:48 PM

I'm amazed that "Greensleeves" and "Danny Boy" are on people's lists. In my opinion, those are two of the best tunes ever "written" in the insular part of Europe. I can't imagine a life in which I would hear the Londonderry Air too often, but I guess overexposure will kill one's pleasure in anything.

TFT writes: What about that song with the "gospel makers" that you have to sit through while people expound on who "the rivals" were?

It's called "Green Grow the Rushes O" and it not only brings me pleasant memories of a summer camp, it's also quoted in THE GREATEST NOVEL EVER (okay, my favorite American fantasy novel of the '80s): _Little, Big_ by John Crowley.

Canadian, eh? writes: Have the non-Canadians among this group been overexposed to Lightfoot's "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald", or did the CBC save that just for us?

Oh God.

I actually like the tune of "MacArthur Park", and the poetically overambitious lyrics make a nice change from the deadly underambitious lyrics of many pop (and folk and folk-rock) songs. (I am not speaking of heavy metal or progressive rock here. And I'm not for a moment defending Richard Harris's and Donna Summers's versions.)

When I used to get chances to hear great sopranos, both Kathleen Battle and Jessye Norman performed the same de-folked arrangement of "He's Got the Whole World in His Hands". I would be willing to ditch this song from the diva repertoire.

People find it hard to believe that I don't remember ever hearing "The Wedding Song". Now I'm in no hurry to.

Be careful before throwing out "Michael Row the Boat Ashore". There are many worse things for kids to do on long car or bus trips.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Cathy Brady
Date: 04 Jun 97 - 07:22 AM

I really should let go of this thread, huh? Last night at a BG jam the guy next to me pulled out his book of lyrics and it was "Rise up.."! So I guess it was my week to learn about it. As for MIchael, He's got the whole world... etc, I have learned to love these songs again because I've been singing them with the "Excetpional Learners" (retarded adults) Sunday School group. I've even learned to love Jesus Loves Me - which is a song I never remember liking. The key is that the folks singing all love the music and are happy to be singing something they know. How the group feels about singing might be the key. Which might explain the successes of old saws on Prairie HOme Companion.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Tamara
Date: 06 Jun 97 - 08:15 PM

Lessee. Broom o' the Cowdenowes, Valley of Strathmore, Rose of Allendale, Mattie Groves, the Gypsy Rover (with the exception of the Boiled in Lead version, which cracks me up), and Rosie Anderson. Unfortunately, I'm rather fond of Blackbird, Anarchie Gordon, and a couple of the others that have been over done.
Oh yes. A word about bagpipes. I love them. But only if the piper does NOT play either Scotland the Brave or Amazing Grace, the only songs known, apparently, by some ninety percent of pipers.
There's a lot of stuff y'all are mentioning as being beaten to death in sing circles that i'm sure I'd have a stronger opinion about

IF I ONLY HAD SOMEBODY TO SING WITH !!!

Whine whine. I live in center city Philadelphia. All of the local song groups I know of require cars to get to. I make do with singing to tapes and the radio. Pathetic, isn't it ?
And so I share my pain :).

Tamara
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 09 Jun 97 - 12:05 AM

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 09 Jun 97 - 01:22 PM

Yes indeed!

There are certainly songs in every genre that could stand to be unheard for decades. Although I still love Danny Boy, I have to agree with the person who lambasted those who shouldn't be singing it, namely the singers who have to mutilate the tune to keep it within range. There's a singer here in Kansas City, who is from Dublin. Most of the time he flatly refuses to sing DB at all. He he considers it a tune to sing at funerals.

I'll also second the motion on The Happy Wanderer, Kumbaya, and dizzying circle chants. Leave those to the Girl and Boy Scouts around the campfire. Actually, they're probably pretty sick of them too. As one of those ancient folkies from the sixties, I well remember any number of trad songs that I wish had never been "found." They seemed to be the ones that either your family or an audience ALWAYS wanted you to sing. If I think of any more to consider for the "dump" list, I'll stick in another two cents worth or so.

Keep up the good work!

Leslie

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 09 Jun 97 - 03:47 PM

I can't believe you can't find folks to sing with in Phila. I can think of a half dozen places to lurk and find singers - email me if you want some ideas!

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Dick Wisan
Date: 10 Jun 97 - 12:26 AM

What a great thread!

My beef isn't exactly the songs but the singers. The Clancys (but not only the Clancys) are bad about this: all shantys are turned into capstan shantys (shanties?) because they want a hard driving rhythm.

Somebody groused about "The Happy Wanderer". Is that the one that goes:

We love to go a-wanderung

Along the Zuyder zee,

And as we go, we laugh and throw

Our friends into the sea.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 10 Jun 97 - 02:37 AM

That was me!
Your words are a great improvement.

Cheers,

Alan

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 10 Jun 97 - 07:04 AM

I read with interest the comments started off by Susan of Calif

Had Susan been exposed to the true story behind Waltzing Matilda and not just the popular "Jolly Swagman" version that was re-arranged in 1903, some eight years after Banjo first penned the ballad at old Dagworth Homestead in January 1895, then she may have had a completely different outlook on the ballad.

The true story behind "our song" is not one of a Jolly Swagman stuffing a whole sheep into a tucker bag but...

Well the best way to answer that is for you to visit our Waltzing Matilda site at http://www.waltzingmatilda.com and be exposed to the real Matilda.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Bert Hansell
Date: 10 Jun 97 - 12:12 PM

Tamara, try this site for folk info in Philadelphia

http://www.dynanet.com/~larry/index.html
Bert.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 10 Jun 97 - 12:45 PM

About the waltzingmatilda site above. Maybe it had the original words there but I gave up before I found them.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Annie Talley
Date: 10 Jun 97 - 01:27 PM

I've been reading this since no one answered my thread on the words to "I'm a truthful fellow".It is very funny. I got to thinking though it's not really the song that needs ditching it's more the people who do them and the WAY they are done.My son was in his room yesterday and was playing an "alternative" version of "Boil Them Cabbage Down" on his electric guitar and it was quite awesome. Two scenes come to mind and one is where John Belushi (in animal house) smashes a guitar over some one's head who is singing "I gave my love a cherry" and the other one where that guy on beevis and butthead that wears the shirt with the peace sign on it is sitting around a campfire singing "men have feelings too". I was at Mt. Airy last weekend for the fiddler's convention and I was singing "Will the Circle be Unbroken" and some hairy pitted hippie chick started singing "will the fetus be aborted" and I was like geeeeeeeeeehhhhh. As far as "Rise up singing" there's too much good stuff in there to trash it. I could sing Lakes of the Ponchartrain a gazillion times.But there are plenty in there that do SUCK - like isn't there one about a penis and it goes something like "it's only a pee-pee"- this one should be first on the list for sure. Oh well, that's my 2 cents.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 97 - 02:35 PM

I'll second the motion on ditching "It's only a Wee-Wee" in the 'Rise Up Singing' songbook. We have a 6-yr-old in one song circle who requests that song every darn month. We sing it, because that's better than making an issue of it. Songs like that, the ones that push political agendas or try too hard to be politically correct, those must be the most obnoxious songs ever written. Give me a plate of greasy grimy gopher guts any time, rather than that garbage.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Jack
Date: 10 Jun 97 - 04:44 PM

Annie, I agree with you about Rise Up Singing. As I indicated in a recent thread in this forum (see IN DEFENSE OF RUS), it is mainly critized not on its own merits, but on the way some use it, (or overuse it as the case may be).

In fact, a lot of complaints in the current thread are less about songs than about the taste or behavior of other singers. The complaints are in the general format of

I HATE SONG X BECAUSE....

A) Everyone wants to sing it all the time B) Nobody wants to sing my songs because they always sing SONG X. C) Too many people sing SONG X really badly.

None of which have much to do with the song itself.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Bob Clayton
Date: 23 Jun 97 - 02:12 PM

Let's see -- one part "done badly" and two parts "done to death," mixed with "poorly (or worse) conceived" makes for an interesting list. This thread, which I just read in toto, having just decided to look over the discussion forum that Bill D keeps mentioning, keeps wobbling back and forth about the songs. We orta organize 'em:

Songs that are Okay, but Overdone (SOO Songs):

Michael's Boat (so overdone in its day that it's not done much at all, but still gets "those looks" when started); the Wedding Song (I, too, don't actually recognize this one, as in "hear it in my head when the title is mentioned"); Walting with Fauna ('nuff said); Waltzing Matilda (does the purported "charm" of this song derive from those Australian terms that the singer can claim to know when the audiene supposedly doesn't -- or actually didn't when the song was first commited?) (For the English majors out there -- you know who you are -- I bet you can't parse THAT sentence!) and probably most of the others already mentioned.

Poorly Done Ditties (Yes!) (PIDDY Songs):

MacArthur Park, and much of Paul Simon's later (post-1970) work (the charm of "Graceland" is NOT in the lyrical qualities of the pieces, and I say this despite very much liking to hear the CD); "Mao Tse Tung" by Ewan MacColl (if it's not his worst, I don't wanna hear what is!) A sh*tload of other topical and PC songs (Hugh Manatee is right up there, fer shur!) Most of those songer-singwriter songs that are so personal that ONLY the writer would sing 'em. I write songs, too, but at least try to come up with something someone else might LIKE to sing. (If anyone asks, I'll post "I Feel, I Feel" -- a collaboration with some friends -- but ONLY if someone asks.) (I can hear it now -- Don't Ask, Don't Tell!)

Well, It Sings Hard (WISH Songs) -- songs that are hard to do properly, but are done anyway, usually by people who shouldn't have attempted them: Star Spangled Banner ANY Leonard Cohen song and most old ballads with Phrygian, Lochrian or other "odd" modes in the tune. They get discovered and perpetrated on recording, then the vox populi attempt them, with disastrous results.

This has gotten longer than I intended, but my song-circle friends expect it of me, so I had to comply. Sort of the prose equivalent of "I keep getting asked for this song." If we look hard, we can find terrible songs, good songs done to death, and professional-driver-on-closed-course, don't-try-this-at-home songs. Our resulting list should probably be annotated to reflect the categories.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Peter Timmerman
Date: 23 Jun 97 - 05:12 PM

Dear Bob, I am sort of maintaining a watch on this -- I also have a stack of e-mails -- and at some point I intend to post the (interim?) results. Your categories are pretty good. I have been fiddlng away with overdone and half-baked (for the PC songs). A real problem is drawing a line so that bad pop songs are excluded. They crop up a lot on lists. We have been this way before....Also, given the nature of the contributors, there is a North American folkie/Celtic pub divide (If I can simplify drastically) that needs to be reflected in the final listings. Fun, though. Yours, Peter

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 25 Jun 97 - 02:40 PM

I agree that a lot of the problem with many of the songs is that they're overplayed or done badly. Unfortunately, that tends to ruin the sweetness of getting the occasional taste of a song done well. I was at the Winterguard championships in Wildwood, NJ this past spring and saw a guard perform to a beautiful version of "Danny Boy".. since it WAS well done and I hadn't heard it recently, it DID bring tears to my eyes.

My submissions:

The Ball of Ballynore (a.k.a. The Gathering of the Clans): Most people probably don't hear this often, but at a Renaissance Festival it's likely to get you set upon by every kilt-boy, actor, and volunteer in sight because we've heard it so damned much! However, a new verse can still occasionally be welcomed with a laugh.

Come Forth: I don't know how widely known this one is, but it's a "Here Comes the Bride" type of thing. "Come forth, come forth from Lebanon, my bride; Come forth, come forth from Lebanon, my spouse; Come draw near, come draw near, my fair one." etc.. I made my mother promise that if/when I get married, she'll make the choir NOT sing it for me, otherwise I'm going to refuse to walk down the aisle. :)

99 Bottles of Beer on the Wall

Amazing Grace on the bagpipes: I never heard this until maybe last year, and suddenly it's all that the pipers know how to play! Now, since I hate hearing a good song mangled, this was occasion for fist-clenching, frantic whimpering, and serious thoughts of setting my clan-cousins on the pipers. However, has anybody heard Ani DiFranco's version of AG? It's beautiful because it's done in a different style.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jun 97 - 03:14 PM

I heard "Amazing Grace" played on the Alpenhorn a few years ago...it was VERY nice!! (*grin*...maybe a bagpipe & Alpenhorn duet)

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 25 Jun 97 - 03:33 PM

I second the motion to ditch 99 Bottles of Beer. I personally had to ditch the song at age 15. It was on a train (tells you how old I am) to camp (Royal Canadian Air Cadets - tells you again.) Someone started singing and his seat mates joined in. They did the whole works down to no bottles of beer. Just as we were breathing a sigh of relief the instigator sang the following.

No bottles of beer on the wall
No bottles of beer
Take one down, pass it around
Minus one bottles of beer on the wall.

He stopped at this point. Someone's hands were around his neck. I've never sung it since and I'll bet he hasn't either.

Frank Phillips

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 25 Jun 97 - 06:48 PM

Much as the vast, hovering body of folk music may, like grandmaternal embraces or avuncular dutch-rubs, seem oppressive at times, one could not decently think of hacking off a bit of it any more than one would consider removing a large swath of Granny's mid-section with a samurai sword or flattening Uncle Bill's knuckles with a meat mallet.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 26 Jun 97 - 12:05 PM

even worse than hearing 99 bottles of beer sung all the way through, though.. is hearing it sung in hexadecimal... a friend of mine did that to her family on a trip once.. started at FF bottles and got through all 256 refrains, down to 00 bottles.

And there's the ever popular "infinity bottles of beer on the wall" which we managed to sing for an entire half hour with nobody killing us while waiting in line for a ride at Disney.. :)

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Paul Stamler
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 01:59 PM

A few miscellaneous thoughts: 1) Danny Boy -- can we separate the superb tune, collected from a tinker in Co. Derry in the mid 19th century, from the sodden lyrics, written (I believe) by some tin pan alley hack? 2) Would someone please put a large billboard in every city with folksingers, telling them that "Goodnight Irene" isn't a jolly, roaring farewell song, but a trip into the depths from a man who has lost his wife and his lover and is seriously contemplating suicide? 3) I quite like Louis Killen's version of "Waltzing Matilda", which keeps its eye on the class relationships. 4) "Wedding Song" is the best reason I know to live in sin. 5) The problem with "Amazing Grace" is that performers (pro and amateur) use it as a tool to induce a particular mood, and it's always manipulative. "OK, folks, you're gonna feel holy now!" Feh. Try the shape-note version, which is harder to abuse. Others I'd love to see disappear: that damned song about the Irish immigrant cowboy who killed lots of people, stole, cheated, but was basically a good sort because he liked slip jigs and reels. "Kilkelly", another sentimentalized bosh. "Whishkey in the Jar". "Thanksgiving Eve". I'll grant "The Sick Note" clemency, but it sure has been overdone. Outside the folk realm, *any* "gonzo" Christmas song should be deep-sixed forever, unless it was written by Tom Lehrer. Okay, I'll stop now.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Allan. S
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 02:37 PM

Wow what a thread more fun What I can't stand are the PC songs that start with the following statement "And then I wrote this song because people are dying in -------" fill in the blank any country will do. If we all sing it we can save the world.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Ralph Butts
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 04:53 PM

Re: Paul's Item 2, above, I would add "Loch Lomond", always done way, way out of context......Tiger

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: jeffs
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 10:17 PM

ANY song that gets done time after time can make the list. I dreaded the City of New Orleans for a while. I still have an urge to take a black marker to the Rose.

I'll nominate American Pie for the WISH list. But it's soo much fun to try.

Since RUS is taking some more abuse I should point out that there're 1200 songs in there. You really should be able to go a few months without repeating ;^)

jeff "moving from a town with 3 circles to one with 8 helps too"

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 11 Jan 99 - 10:24 PM

"Where Have All The Flowers Gone?"

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Dawn
Date: 12 Jan 99 - 01:23 AM

I was recently at an open mike night where - because some people come later, hopefully for a better reason than because then they don't have to listen to the earlier performers - those of us who stayed for the entire evening sat through THREE renditions of "Angel from Montgomery". In one night. By the time the third performer started in on it, half the pub was almost rolling on the floor.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Kris
Date: 12 Jan 99 - 07:18 AM

Well, I think that if I like a song I shall damn well sing it. And so do a lot of other people. At the singing circle I have recently joined I am quite happy to listen to ANYONE sing ANYTHING and I don't care whether they are off key, squeeky, or singing something I don't like. That is because they extend the same courtesy to me. And to anyone that sneers at someone else's choice of songs and execution - well who made you the god of music then? That's not to say you can't BE fed up of something & discuss said fed-up-ness, but not to the extent of making amateur performers afraid of being ridiculed. The nice thing about the circle I have joined is that, as my husband remarked (tho he ma have been exaggerating just a little), you could fart in a glass and they would all say 'well farted'. And I think that's a good thing. The attitude not the farting.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jan 99 - 12:19 PM

for those who sometimes 'sing' limericks..(various tunes are used..)

I DID once sing at our local song circle this little ditty..click if you would be amused by the ultimate 'well farted'

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Dan Keding
Date: 12 Jan 99 - 08:32 PM

While there are several songs out there that I could live forever happily without hearing again I have to agree with Kris. I'm sure when many of us started we sang songs that others wanted dead and buried. For the most part those folks suffered through our folkie beginnings and I guess we should return the favor. The good songs will last, cream always rises to the top. The good singers will always be appreciated. I also sometimes shudder when I see that Blue Book come out but it sure started a lot of people singing and I'd rather they were singing, even songs I hate, then staying home and watchinh t.v. and ignoring the music altogether. Dan

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Jo Taylor
Date: 12 Jan 99 - 08:34 PM

Just taken about half an hour to read this thread - no-one's yet mentioned 'Four Strong Winds'.
When at its height of 'oh no not again-ness' it was heard - see Dawn's experience above - no less than three times in the same evening, it must be really baffling for the poor performers when the entire audience cracks up!
It was the first song I ever learnt to sing & play and I loved it - well, I was only 12 years old. Not sure if it falls into the category of 'overexposed' or 'not terribly good in the first place'. Please excuse me if some odd letters appear in this message - trying some HTML
line
breaks
Jo

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: phinquephinque
Date: 13 Jan 99 - 06:55 PM

If the songs don't get sung, they don't get passed along. That's how some of these songs got to us prior to RUS.

I have trouble with listening to a singer song writer (some exceptions Paxton, Lavin) who does a program of only his(or her) songs of which many..or all are not very good.

I second Kris' comment about courteous listening at song circles. Groups at informal "campfire" sings somehow seem to like the overdone songs. Maybe because we all know all the words and it's too dark to read the song

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 13 Jan 99 - 07:06 PM

Sorry, The DT doesn't ditch anything. Though at times, I've considered the idea...

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Dawncampfire
Date: 14 Jan 99 - 12:52 AM

And we are glad that you don't, Dick. I wouldn't even want "Angel" ditched completely. I just would like to NOT hear it quite so often. Maybe if everyone in my open mike group would be courteous enough to come for the whole evening instead of just long enough to get on stage for their 15 minutes of "fame".....Again, it's more a problem of people than the songs.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: McMusicMcMusic
Date: 14 Jan 99 - 02:11 AM

Would LOVE to add: When Irish Eyes Are Smiling Mother Macree McNamara's Band

Not Irish folk songs you say? Exactly my point, yet some people insist on identifying them as such!! Drives me crazy! That and Too-ra-loo-raloo-ra!!! And God bless those who voted for Michael Row The Boat Ashore. Sometimes I think I'll open up an artery if I hear that song again!

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Lesley N.
Date: 14 Jan 99 - 05:18 PM

OK - I've waited for someone to to mention "My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean" and "Clementine" - but no one has. Are they covered in the 'Rise Up Singing' group? (I too have never seen the book).

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 14 Jan 99 - 06:22 PM

Susan of Calif.

STAR SPANGLED BANNER.... (is it a Folk song?)

It's 'Over exposed CRAP.

Alan of Aussie. Silly Song. Want to see something silly?

LOOK IN THE MIRROR.

Bill, Welcome to Mudcat. It's nice to see such obviously young people join in the discussions.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 16 Jan 99 - 12:20 AM

Of overexposed songs, I'd have to vote for "City of New Orleans." A ten year rest might be appropriate. I think I might vote for most of John Denver's and Gordon Lightfoot's repertoire most of it to saccharine for me.

Roger in Baltimore