Folk Songs to Ditch

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Bert Hansell
Date: 10 Jun 97 - 12:12 PM

Tamara, try this site for folk info in Philadelphia

http://www.dynanet.com/~larry/index.html
Bert.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 10 Jun 97 - 07:04 AM

I read with interest the comments started off by Susan of Calif

Had Susan been exposed to the true story behind Waltzing Matilda and not just the popular "Jolly Swagman" version that was re-arranged in 1903, some eight years after Banjo first penned the ballad at old Dagworth Homestead in January 1895, then she may have had a completely different outlook on the ballad.

The true story behind "our song" is not one of a Jolly Swagman stuffing a whole sheep into a tucker bag but...

Well the best way to answer that is for you to visit our Waltzing Matilda site at http://www.waltzingmatilda.com and be exposed to the real Matilda.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 10 Jun 97 - 02:37 AM

That was me!
Your words are a great improvement.

Cheers,

Alan

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Dick Wisan
Date: 10 Jun 97 - 12:26 AM

What a great thread!

My beef isn't exactly the songs but the singers. The Clancys (but not only the Clancys) are bad about this: all shantys are turned into capstan shantys (shanties?) because they want a hard driving rhythm.

Somebody groused about "The Happy Wanderer". Is that the one that goes:

We love to go a-wanderung

Along the Zuyder zee,

And as we go, we laugh and throw

Our friends into the sea.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 09 Jun 97 - 03:47 PM

I can't believe you can't find folks to sing with in Phila. I can think of a half dozen places to lurk and find singers - email me if you want some ideas!

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 09 Jun 97 - 01:22 PM

Yes indeed!

There are certainly songs in every genre that could stand to be unheard for decades. Although I still love Danny Boy, I have to agree with the person who lambasted those who shouldn't be singing it, namely the singers who have to mutilate the tune to keep it within range. There's a singer here in Kansas City, who is from Dublin. Most of the time he flatly refuses to sing DB at all. He he considers it a tune to sing at funerals.

I'll also second the motion on The Happy Wanderer, Kumbaya, and dizzying circle chants. Leave those to the Girl and Boy Scouts around the campfire. Actually, they're probably pretty sick of them too. As one of those ancient folkies from the sixties, I well remember any number of trad songs that I wish had never been "found." They seemed to be the ones that either your family or an audience ALWAYS wanted you to sing. If I think of any more to consider for the "dump" list, I'll stick in another two cents worth or so.

Keep up the good work!

Leslie

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 09 Jun 97 - 12:05 AM

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Tamara
Date: 06 Jun 97 - 08:15 PM

Lessee. Broom o' the Cowdenowes, Valley of Strathmore, Rose of Allendale, Mattie Groves, the Gypsy Rover (with the exception of the Boiled in Lead version, which cracks me up), and Rosie Anderson. Unfortunately, I'm rather fond of Blackbird, Anarchie Gordon, and a couple of the others that have been over done.
Oh yes. A word about bagpipes. I love them. But only if the piper does NOT play either Scotland the Brave or Amazing Grace, the only songs known, apparently, by some ninety percent of pipers.
There's a lot of stuff y'all are mentioning as being beaten to death in sing circles that i'm sure I'd have a stronger opinion about

IF I ONLY HAD SOMEBODY TO SING WITH !!!

Whine whine. I live in center city Philadelphia. All of the local song groups I know of require cars to get to. I make do with singing to tapes and the radio. Pathetic, isn't it ?
And so I share my pain :).

Tamara
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Cathy Brady
Date: 04 Jun 97 - 07:22 AM

I really should let go of this thread, huh? Last night at a BG jam the guy next to me pulled out his book of lyrics and it was "Rise up.."! So I guess it was my week to learn about it. As for MIchael, He's got the whole world... etc, I have learned to love these songs again because I've been singing them with the "Excetpional Learners" (retarded adults) Sunday School group. I've even learned to love Jesus Loves Me - which is a song I never remember liking. The key is that the folks singing all love the music and are happy to be singing something they know. How the group feels about singing might be the key. Which might explain the successes of old saws on Prairie HOme Companion.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 03 Jun 97 - 05:48 PM

I'm amazed that "Greensleeves" and "Danny Boy" are on people's lists. In my opinion, those are two of the best tunes ever "written" in the insular part of Europe. I can't imagine a life in which I would hear the Londonderry Air too often, but I guess overexposure will kill one's pleasure in anything.

TFT writes: What about that song with the "gospel makers" that you have to sit through while people expound on who "the rivals" were?

It's called "Green Grow the Rushes O" and it not only brings me pleasant memories of a summer camp, it's also quoted in THE GREATEST NOVEL EVER (okay, my favorite American fantasy novel of the '80s): _Little, Big_ by John Crowley.

Canadian, eh? writes: Have the non-Canadians among this group been overexposed to Lightfoot's "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald", or did the CBC save that just for us?

Oh God.

I actually like the tune of "MacArthur Park", and the poetically overambitious lyrics make a nice change from the deadly underambitious lyrics of many pop (and folk and folk-rock) songs. (I am not speaking of heavy metal or progressive rock here. And I'm not for a moment defending Richard Harris's and Donna Summers's versions.)

When I used to get chances to hear great sopranos, both Kathleen Battle and Jessye Norman performed the same de-folked arrangement of "He's Got the Whole World in His Hands". I would be willing to ditch this song from the diva repertoire.

People find it hard to believe that I don't remember ever hearing "The Wedding Song". Now I'm in no hurry to.

Be careful before throwing out "Michael Row the Boat Ashore". There are many worse things for kids to do on long car or bus trips.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Peter Timmerman
Date: 01 Jun 97 - 03:51 PM

Dear Cathy, further to above. "Rise Up Singing is edited by Peter Blood and Annie Patterson, copyright 1992. ISBN 0-9626704-7-2. Since my last posting, I have received two e-mails (er, e-males) suggesting (among other things I cannot mention in polite company) that the entire chapter entitled "Men" in "Rise up Singing" should be given a special horror award of merit. So, be on guard.Yours, Peter

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Kitdiva
Date: 01 Jun 97 - 12:15 AM

I love this thread. I, too, cast my vote for the Wedding Song, If I were a Carpenter, and Michael row....

I too would be desperately grateful for a copy of Hugh the Manatee. LaMarca, would you be so kind-?!! Plus the parody of the Wedding Song would be wonderful, H. Burhans. Thanks. (And has anyone mentioned, "Today, while the blossoms still cling to the vine"? May they fall off!)

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 31 May 97 - 02:31 PM

Kathy is thinking of the book by Dick & Beth Best..(my copy is pretty ragged...also my copy of "Songs for Swingin' House Mothers" and my Burl Ives books and my "Hootnanny Songbook"..etc.. I guess it will take a bit longer to wear out the newer ones...and every one deserves a place on my shelf, though they don't get opened as often anymore. I collect almost anything I can find...(as do several other friends in this area...we all have our 'private bookstores which we hope no one else will discover.*smile*) And when we find duplicates, they make fine presents for those we know don't have them...I acquired a wonderful copy of Percy's Reliques recently from a nice lady.(Thanks again...)

So...in having a lot of books and Digitrad & this forum, I am constantly honing & re-defining my tastes and learning new verses and history. The 'folk process' is like evolution...it CAN'T stop unless you totally isolate yourself from outside influences.But that does not mean that it should be hurried along too fast....a 'folk processer' set on 'puree' gives you mush-which is why I don't add just anything to my repertoire...I may have to 'eat' it later...

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Peter Timmerman
Date: 31 May 97 - 01:25 PM

Dear Cathy, in the interests of information and fair play, "Rise Up Singing" is a spiral bound book with about a thousand songs in it, complete with chords, and organized thematically. The themes are, well, sort of like the apotheosis of the 60's (much of the material comes out of the "Sing Out" magazine files and other places).There are also tapes you can buy, and (news to me, but see above contribution) they seem to hold learning sessions. It is actually a pretty good deal for a first book. It has "Up On the Roof" in it, which is not a folk song, and seems to me to be impervious to destruction, so I can stand it personally. Yours, Peter

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Will
Date: 31 May 97 - 01:28 AM

Great comments. Just came back from two days at camp with a bunch of fifth grade boys.

I played as many terrible songs as I could think of, as loudly as I could manage, just to drown out their version of "If I had a hammer", which had become a paen to sex and violence.

Whatever is the younger generation coming to?

Subject: Songfest, the book
From: Cathy Brady
Date: 31 May 97 - 01:22 AM

It was a yellow paperback in the early 60's. I have never seen Rise up Singing. Is Songfest similar. From it I learned words to Mountain Dew that nobody else seems to use. And a song called Persian Kitty that I've never heard any one else sing.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 30 May 97 - 08:40 PM

from Joe Offers post up there ^

"and drink beer and sing gospel songs. We did all that in jest, but we put a lot of sincerity into all those corny 60's commercial folk songs - including Kumbayah. Whatever the case, we sure had a good time singing a lot of bad music.

Now I'm in a song circle that uses "Rise Up Singing" as a hymnal. Yes, the book has a lot of corny songs; but I sure have a good time singing them. Isn't that what it's all about?"

-Joe-

Yep, Joe...and some people drink Budweiser and eat at McDonalds. Having a good time singing is a very important part of 'what it's all about'.You may certainly sing...and enjoy...anything you please.But Barry's point (it seems to me)is that an awful lot of stuff is being produced--beer, hamburgers, music--that has very little content and polish, and is simply being 'marketed' like soap, soap operas, sit-coms, bland beer,and pre-cooked veal patties.

Some of the 'navel-gazing' songs done by girl singers who are inspired by Kate Wolfe are really insipid stuff....as were some of the 'oldies' of the sixties.Yes, I know some of them...even sing one now & then...I eat a McDonalds hamburger occasionally, too (though I will NOT drink a Budweiser!) But I do not partake of these things on a 'regular' basis, and I do not extoll their virtues and form "McDonalds eating clubs".

I own a copy of "Rise Up Singing", and every now & then I refer to it...I would not 'throw it out'...and I doubt that Barry expects me to. There are a lot of good songs in it, and it has some real uses. It is not terribly well researched and edited...there are a lot of un-necessary errors in it, but I can deal with that because I also have OTHER sources! When it is the ONLY source, those errors get set in stone in a lot of people's heads, as does the very concept of 'one source'. I have "The Folksingers Wordbook" too--and several other collections & compilations.

So, what's my point? My point is that McDonalds & Anheiser-Busch have enough money & influence to make it difficult for competition, no matter HOW good, and "Rise Up Singing" has put so many copies of their little tome out there(as well as "Rise Up Singing" workshops & seminars), that it has begun to propagate like crabgrass and become, as you say, a hymn book.No one can keep you from worshiping at the altar of your choice, but whenever possible-like 'now'- I will take a few minutes and warn those within earshot that there ARE other (and, to my mind, better) books).

Am I being a 'snob'? Perhaps so, by some standards....I really thing that there are songs(and beers) that we would be better off without, but they are here...and I am a realist. All I can do is enter these discussions and point out my approach to things...you never know when I'll gain a convert by my brilliant analysis. *wink*

I don't think that any folk songs are going to be 'ditched' because of what we say here, but perhaps the nominees will cause some 'folk' to think a bit more about what they sing.

Regards...Bill D

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 May 97 - 10:25 PM

Yes I did cut my teeth on House Of The Rising Sun etc, but I'm still for tossing Rise Up Singing, I agree it's fun to get every body singing together but on something that was exiting in the 60's please, give it a rest, there are still uncharted waters out there, the same waters where these old gems came from. My gripe with the old stand bys and books are that the more they get recycled the less we hear of songs that we could complain about in 25 yrs from now, and the effect this has on our expections and standards. Why learn The Rambler From Clare when everyone will sing Danny Boy just ONE MORE TIME. I droped out of singing circles 15 yrs ago when I kept getting asked for the same songs over and over again until I hated the songs and only recently started singing them to my kids. LaMarca you can sing my song to death if you like, I'll take the heat, which brings me to contempory trash. Anyone want a new song about the SUN or MY BABY GIRL or WHAT GROWS IN MY GARDEN that doesn't grow in yours, get a life. It seems that alot the contempory stull thats being aired is written by singers who's talent lies in promoting and alot of the great hard to find songs are dying because of underexposure (see above thread). This leads to the talented singer/songerwriter who needs the exposure to ply their trade like the broadside ballad hawkers of the last century. Again this might lead to the talented getting lumped together with the talentless, at festivals, where cheaper is a major factor of survival, and where traditional & contempory performers may struggle with one another for their bread, and who's to say who's better or who's worth more,(the promoters thats who), and when the venues start to fade away we can all sing COME BY HERE where the clubs, festivals and airwaves used to be. And people call me pathalogicaly affirmative. Barry Finn Cont. may

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 29 May 97 - 10:11 PM

The tune for "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" is the same as Bobby Sands' "Back Home In Derry" but without the chorus. Which came first? Any ideas?

Cheers,

Alan

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 29 May 97 - 08:58 PM

To Canadian Eh.

I am sitting here typing away, wearing a T-shirt that says "The Edmund Fitzgerald, 1975-1995 The legend lives on."

BUT I am NOT going to sing. I agree with you about the CBC (as I said in my post about the 2 Wade Hemsworth songs.)

Now I am going to make a strenuous effort to find Lightfoot and Hemsworth songs that I really like but NEVER hear anymore. Home From the Forest and Wild Goose spring immediately to mind.

Frank Phillips

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: JH
Date: 29 May 97 - 05:31 PM

WHILE YOUR AT IT, DUMP, GET RID OF, TRASH, ANYTHING THAT HAS BEEN SUNG OR WRITTEN BY NEIL YOUNG AND THE CRAZY HORSE HE RODE IN ON.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 29 May 97 - 05:31 PM

H. Burhans!! Could you post those Wedding Song parody lyrics?

also... A comment or two on complaints on folk songs that are really good, just "over-requested, over-played or over-sung".

Not one of the secular "overplayed" songs mentioned above holds candle to the repetition records of some hymns (e.g. Doxology).

There's a Cleveland Folksinger, Tim Wallace, who managed to take one line each from about 25 or so of these songs and weave them into a single song. He did it back during the late '60's folk scare as a way to get all the requests out of the way in one song.

Besides, legions of people who have written or are currently writing and performing great original music, or who have great repertoires of lesser played old-time or folk tunes, cut their teeth as performers on Puff, House of Rising Sun, Edmund Fitzgerald et al., around campfires and at open mikes (yes you did, come on, admit it).

So if repetition of great old songs is what it takes to keep bringing people into this music, its a price worth paying. You would rather Vanilli?

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Canadian, eh?
Date: 29 May 97 - 04:28 PM

Have the non-Canadians among this group been overexposed to Lightfoot's "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald", or did the CBC save that just for us? I will apologize now to any loyalists I may have slighted.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Bert Hansell
Date: 29 May 97 - 01:11 PM

Joe,

You could substitute "Country songs" for "Shakespeare" in your message.

Also, I went to a songwriter's workshop a while ago and they told us "Don't use cliches" . I said "Well there goes all my songs."

Bert.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 29 May 97 - 11:59 AM

I sure enjoyed that read. Learned that there are some good humoured people out there, also learned that we are not without our snobs. Somebody said that all Shakespeare did was string together a whole bunch of cliches. I wish I was a cliche.

Best, Joe

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Sheye
Date: 29 May 97 - 10:40 AM

An example of the 25 year hiatus clause being subjective: I remember Molly Malone from grade school and haven't heard it in years. The first part is all I remember and would love to hear it again.

Greensleeves could go to sleep for a while. Was never partial to green and envious that since I wouldn't be wearing green, I wouldn't be turning heads.

Dave Barry's list was a blast and I'd love to read it again...

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Peter Timmerman
Date: 28 May 97 - 05:26 PM

Dear LaMarca, If you could find a copy of the Dave Barry list, I would appreciate it. I am sure he also has some appropriate remarks. The other request is more gruesome -- do you have a copy of Hugh the Manatee? I have never heard it, and it sounds so hideous that it might be worth, well, I am not sure what. I speak as an ardent environmentalist. Yours, Peter

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: LaMarca
Date: 28 May 97 - 03:11 PM

In the past couple years Dave Barry has had a "Ten Worst Rock and Roll Songs of All Time" contest in his column. I don't remember the whole list, but his number one loser was "MacArthur Park", a song so full of bombast and overblown metaphors that it collapses under its own weight ("Someone left a cake out in the rain..."), especially when "sung" by the musically impaired Richard Harris.

This contest was a lot easier for rock'n'roll than for folk songs in some ways; a lot more REALLY BAD songs get a whole lot more exposure and airplay in the pop music world than in folk music circles. One good thing about the oral tradition; if a song REALLY stinks, it will die after a couple generations. Unfortunately, those of us living in the same generation the song was "born" or written in are stuck with it...

There's a really big crop of recently written "folk" music I'd love to see consigned to the trash dumpster of history, especially "message" songs that advocate feminism, ecological correctness, peace, love, freedom and other politically correct causes without regard to melody, meter or elegant language. It's not that I don't agree with the political viewpoints expressed; it's just that the songs are written with all the subtlety of a 2 X 4, and sung with such painful earnestness that I want to cringe. There's the generic protest song, "Gonna Keep on Walkin' Forward" (your cause here), the sappy/cute eco-consciousness song "Hugh the Manatee" (Hugh Manatee - get it?, get it? Aren't we clever), any of the myriad of "Wymyn's movement" songs("all men are scum and we sisters should become lesbians and just get rid of them"), etc. Personally, I think Tom Lehrer's "We Are the Folk Song Army" should be required listening for anyone tempted to write a topical/political song!

Ah, well, I know that in generations to come, right thinking people (meaning those who share MY opinions) will bury these mistakes in the collective unconscious, whence they will be revived by earnest amateur folklorists like myself looking for a "new" obscure song to present to THEIR fellow folksingers...

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Tim Rossiter
Date: 28 May 97 - 09:46 AM

I think we need to realize that what may be "over-exposed" to performers is not to listeners. John McCormack (not what we might call a folk artist, but . . .) said he gave his audiences three things at a performance, Songs they want hear, Songs from his home and Songs they should want to hear.

I do "feel your pain" with some of the Son of Kumbaya liturgical songs, and although many people insist they easier for people to sing and encourage participation, I don't think a Panis Angelicus or Pange Lingua would hurt now and then.

NB. I think the so-called "I.R.A." category needs to be split into three. There is nothing wrong in celebrating Irish freedom from Britain with patriotic songs such as "Rising of the Moon", or educating about current injustices with songs such as "H-block Song". The third category could be those songs which advocated killing civilians or burning churches. Frankly I can't think of any.

Tim

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Cathy Brady
Date: 27 May 97 - 06:42 PM

I've just started going to bluegrass jams with my fiddle. I'm getting so I don't want to name my request when it's my turn. The last time I asked for Angel Band I got the cold shoulder for the rest of the night. As I read this thread it occurs to me that maybe it was "overexposed"? I finally get over the "obscure is cool" thing I was in in the sixties and seventies... it got lonely. If Garrison K. can make "Tell Me Why" a pleasure to sing, I'm in pursuit of the friendly song circle. Of course i'd be the first to punch out the person who wants us to play Rocky Top. Maybe we should ask them "What key will you be playing in?" This thread has been great fun and thought provoking, too.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: hartley
Date: 27 May 97 - 06:22 PM

I'm for complying the top to-be-ditch candidates in several categories--Irish sung and unsung, dated folk music, country/western, children's tunes, etc. This would be subject of good conservation as we sing them.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: hartley
Date: 27 May 97 - 06:20 PM

I'm for complying the top to-be-ditch candidates in several categories--Irish sung and unsung, dated folk music, country/western, children's tunes, etc. This would be subject of good conservation as we sing them.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: hartley
Date: 27 May 97 - 06:17 PM

I'm for complying the top to-be-ditch candidates in several categories--Irish sung and unsung, dated folk music, country/western, children's tunes, etc. This would be subject of good conservation as we sing them.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 27 May 97 - 12:21 PM

I seem to remember Frank Harte recording "Molly Malone" a few years ago and commenting that just because a song had fallen on hard times because of the company it kept, it didn't mean it wasn't a great song!

Let's keep an open mind and be prepared to gently subvert the restrictive corsets into which songs get pushed. Sorry about the mixed metaphor!

Now can can we get back to songs?

Regards

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 27 May 97 - 12:09 PM

I seem to remember Frank Harte recording "Molly Malone" a few years ago and commenting that just because a song had fallen on hard times because of the company it kept, it didn't mean it wasn't a great song!

Let's keep an open mind and be prepared to gently subvert the restrictive corsets into which songs get pushed. Sorry about the mixed metaphor!

Now can can we get back to songs?

Regards

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Susan of California
Date: 27 May 97 - 11:27 AM

Will, I agree with you that much of the time music is about social context. People from different parts of the world have different feelings about songs, and if someone from Australia sang "Waltzing Matilda" at my campfire, I'd probably have a soft spot for it :-) And what really matters is the human connection that music often makes. Look at the symbolic use yellow ribbons have now, that they might never have attained if not for a hokey song. And as far as singing to your kids goes, I have found that when mine were little, I could get away with singing them virtually anything-one of their favorites was a severely mangled "Tura Lura Lura" (is that from Finnean's Rainbow?) I'm sure that I don't know the right words or tune but I can remember my Mom singing it to my little brother, I sang it to them, and I bet they will produce their own version of it when they have kids..at least I hope they will. Now that they are getting older, they just wish I'd quit singing, and their dad would leave his guitar out in the rain. Arggh. Having teenaged kids is such fun.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Peter Timmerman
Date: 27 May 97 - 09:23 AM

Yes, well, all this is ruining the slightly drunken simplicity of the original game. Oh well. Currently, most offthread contributors (well, some of them have started tuning in to follow this thread -- hi guys) have much more interest in ditching certain pop songs. This seems to bring out real hatred, and not just the "25 year give it a rest" weariness (unless you are singing it as a lullaby to your children, I guess -- the world is new every morning). Probably there needs to be a new Web site somewhere for worst song ever (somewhere else and thought up by someone else, I have no time!!!) I don't want to give away any secrets, but "Tie a Yellow Ribbon" is way up there. Yours, Peter

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: AndyG
Date: 27 May 97 - 07:42 AM

Ok, I live in England, and drink (and help run a folk club) in an Irish Pub, so here's my list of ditchable songs.

English:
The Wild Mountain Thyme (please Go lassie).
Pleasant and Delightful (for who?).

Irish:
The Black Velvet Band (Still awful after all these years).
Whiskey in the Jar (clap,clap,clap,clap... Oh deary me).
The Wild Rover (even to the tune of Ghost Riders in the Sky).

But, on the other side of the coin I see:-
the phenomena amongst English singers, (anywhere else ?) of singing songs to new and obscure tunes so they, and only they, can sing the chorus, which tends to make even well loved songs long & probably dreary.

Andy

Fun thread tho'

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 May 97 - 03:08 AM

Will, I think you speak the truth. We can pass judgment music all we like and push all sorts of it aside because it doesn't meet our standards, but that's not the point. If somebody enjoys performing or listening to a song, then that song has value. Some of the music I've enjoyed most is corny, trite, and sloppily sentimental. Sometimes I enjoy that stuff just because it's weird; and sometimes I just like a little sentimentality.

Many moons ago, I spent eight years in a Catholic seminary; and one of my greatest pleasures there was singing. We'd gather in the chapel vestibule before evening prayers and smoke cigarettes and sing Engelbert Humperdinck songs. We would chant bus schedules in a Gregorian psalm tone. We'd gather around a piano with a group called the "Rolling Lambs" and drink beer and sing gospel songs. We did all that in jest, but we put a lot of sincerity into all those corny 60's commercial folk songs - including Kumbayah. Whatever the case, we sure had a good time singing a lot of bad music.

Now I'm in a song circle that uses "Rise Up Singing" as a hymnal. Yes, the book has a lot of corny songs; but I sure have a good time singing them. Isn't that what it's all about?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Will
Date: 26 May 97 - 09:21 PM

Hmm, I guess I'll dive into this. I have mixed feelings about this thread. On the one hand, it is hilarious. On the other, though, it smells a bit of folk-crowd literati. As several people have mentioned, many of the songs that people have mentioned are on the list because they show up so often, not because they are intrinsically bad songs. So some people must be voting with their ears. I am reluctant (very reluctant) to object to pretty much any song in the same way that I am reluctant to object to pretty much any book. There are many songs I don't play or sing or listen to, just as there are many books that I don't read, but I object strongly to banning books (even Madison County, Bridges thereof). Similarly, I find it difficult to object to other peoples' taste in music.

Part of the reason I am having this reaction is that I am going off to an annual camp that we have organized with my daughter's school class for the last four years. We have dinner, and then sit around a campfire and sing songs and beat at guitars. Some of these people I see every week; some I see once a year. We end up singing songs that most of us know, including many (most?) of the songs on the outre' list. We sing them not because they are great music, although some of them actually are wonderful songs, but because most of us know the tunes, the words, and can guess at the chords. While part of me wants to view the campfire as an opportunity to introduce wonderful unknown songs to a new audience, the greater part of me justs wants this to be a comfortable evening singing songs with a group of nice people. While I will probably try to play a wonderful Stan Rogers song that no one else has ever heard, along with the standards, I suspect that I will get no more than a grudging listen, because what people there really want to do is sing together, rather than listen to me show off what I have learned in the last year.

Some of the comments about "Rise up singing" jump out in this context. I don't use the book much when I am playing at home. Instead, I use books that have music and songs that I don't already know. But I leave those books at home for campfires and take a couple of copies of RUS, because I know that we will find some songs that we know how to sing and because there will be just enough chords that people who only play a few times a year can play too. Intrinsically, I suppose it's not good music, certainly I wouldn't record it. But, extrinsically it is very good music, because we can all slide into it easily without having to spend all our time worrying about teaching each other words and phrasing.

I think that part of the point, for me, is that music is as much about a social context and a social language as it is about a particular tune and a set of words. Over time, some songs beccome part of a common language. I suspect that there are many reasons why a song becomes invasive, whether it is a catchy tune, a memorable set of phrases, or a particular link to a time and society that people care about for whatever reason. Dylan is probably a good example ("Don't think twice"). There are a bunch of links there: to the 60s, with both the positive and negative aspects of those 10-15 years, a good tune, and an easily remembered verse. I play "Don't think twice" sometimes, other times stop myself because I don't like the sentiments (I have the same reaction to much of the blues). But I wouldn't ditch the song or tell someone else not to sing it. If I hear it on the radio and it bothers me, I switch stations. If I am with a group of people and someone sings it, I'll either wait for the next song or find another group of people if there are too many songs I don't like.

Perhaps another part of the point is that some songs are a form of comfort food, like pasta. I sing "Michael" almost every night to my kids. Have done so for years. By now they both know the words and know that I sing it badly. But it is part of the ritual of going to sleep. While I could get very tired of the song if I heard it in public a lot, I suppose, I don't get tired of it at home.

I am somewhat apologetic about the tone and length of this post. As I said, I think the thread is hilarious. But I don't want us to become too diverted from what I think is our reasonably shared understanding about music, which is that people sing songs and listen to songs that mean something to them. That really is the power of music. So if a bunch of people seem to find something meaningful in a song that I am really tired of, or never got the point of in the first place, I am willing to believe that they must find something that I don't and leave it at that.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Peter Timmerman
Date: 26 May 97 - 11:27 AM

Dear Les, Well, I don't think they are followers of mine! I sort of like Danny Boy, even ruined innumerable times. While I have you on the line (maybe) did you ever get back to Greenfields (a good song)? I suspected that the chorus might be in the major (C), but got stumped again. I am not much of an accompanist. Yours, Peter

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Les Blank
Date: 26 May 97 - 10:09 AM

Well, I held off as long as I could !! Peter, when you and your followers get finished trashing those (G)oldies, please let me know so I can scavenge your dumpsters. I will scoop up your throw-a-ways and lovingly pack them away, to be resurrected years hence after your latest fad has faded. Music is forever -- and, thank Heaven, all of us are not !!

Les Blank

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Andres R.
Date: 26 May 97 - 09:51 AM

I don't know if this is a folk song but one of the most nauseating songs ever, ever is Wind Beneath My Wings. A song for the little people behind the big humble star, bleahh. It is grounds for desertion -- can you imagine some poorlongsufferin wife or husband hearing that and going into the bathroon to throw up and then heading for the luggage rack. Andres

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 25 May 97 - 05:40 PM

I heartily agree with the nomination of "the Wedding Song" In fact, my husband and I can no longer get through it without laughing, 'cause we've parodied it too much! But my all-time most detested song is (ducking!) Heart Like a Wheel! The stupid metaphors drive me nuts! *Some say the heart is just like a wheel (oh yeah, famous saying - learned it at Mom's knee) *You can bend it, you can't mend it (or something like that) *But my love for you is like a sinking ship *And my heart is on that ship out in the ocean (or something) I rest my case.... HB

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 25 May 97 - 05:40 PM

I heartily agree with the nomination of "the Wedding Song" In fact, my husband and I can no longer get through it without laughing, 'cause we've parodied it too much! But my all-time most detested song is (ducking!) Heart Like a Wheel! The stupid metaphors drive me nuts! *Some say the heart is just like a wheel (oh yeah, famous saying - learned it at Mom's knee) *You can bend it, you can't mend it (or something like that) *But my love for you is like a sinking ship *And my heart is on that ship out in the ocean (or something) I rest my case.... HB

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 25 May 97 - 04:43 PM

I have received some more phone calls and e-mails about this, (it seems to have engendered a lot of therapeutic response if nothing else) among which it is suggested that I should tabulate or post a top Ten (three was felt to be too restrictive). If you feel strongly about something left off category 1, or have a good line -- you could post it here, or send it to me by e-mail. I will repost the new results, oh, in a few days. I have no way of making a vote tabulation, so I will do my best. Yours, Peter P.S. Category 2's are O.K. too.

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: Bill D
Date: 24 May 97 - 10:31 PM

WOW!...you miss 2 days and an entire opus has been written! We had an Open Sing once(the local name for a song circle....we do it with topics)where the topic was "Oh,no-Not Again", in which we were invited to publicly air those songs we were tired of and offically retire them for some ambiguous amount of time. It was almost too painful to endure! Songs are like favorite foods-the same meal too often can cause one to give it up for a while.I love "Jock 'O Hazeldean" and "Rose of Allandale", but I don't want to hear them every day, so the 2nd catagory, "songs which need to be edited or pruned" could vary a lot from group to group..(yes, Mrs. Ravoon is among them....I'll do it once a year...on Halloween).

A rule I have is that the 'thinner' or 'weaker' a song is(that is, the less it has to say, or the less well crafted the lyrics) the longer the time between public airings. For example, "Give Me the Roses While I Live", a neat little song with a catchy tune...until you realize that all 4 verses say the same thing!You get tired of it half-way thru! I will think of some more examples and add to this later.. As to stuff like "Waltzing Matilda" and "Danny Boy". These can be fine songs when not overdone-and when performed well! Lame attempts and maudlin arrangements may kill them yet.(I have heard ONE version of 'Danny Boy' which I like, by an Irish singer whose name escapes me at the moment...but he makes you feel why the song was written).

Songs which should never have escaped into the real world: So many..."Old Wooley" by Don Lange...performed by Priscilla Herdman...a great idea, badly crafted!

3/4 of all the "Mother,Father,Sister,Brother,Friends" songs.

"Circle of the Sun" by Sally Rogers...it ain't about anything, it goes nowhere, and it ruins good meter trying to get there.

"Fox on the Run"...What can I say? Yuck!

Songs which are usually ruined but can be great...

"Rolling Home"...often done too fast, in the wrong rhythm, with no feeling...but Lordy! When done well,sends chills up my spine!

"Rolling Down to Old Maui"....same story...and it is easily over done...

"Andy's Gone With Cattle"....several versions, usually sing-songy and in wrong meter..Gerry Hallom does it right! "Goodnight Irene"...too many people know it...and they tend to sing it 'at' each other.It is really work to get into just the right mood to do justice to it.

well...I only have 200-300 more in each category...let's see where this goes......What? You don't all agree with my opinions? Humpf!

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 24 May 97 - 09:25 PM

Oh Boy, I wasn't gonna but I have to.

I remeber the relief felt when I first heard the folk version of Matilda but could do with out it now. Unfortunately always get asked to play/sing it when travelling OS me being Aussie.

My songs fall into the category that Billy Connolly once summed up as "Shortbread Tin Songs" where the singer is standing like the figures on Scottish shortbread tins.

Danny Boy is one especially with the spoken bit about the soldier in the first world war (And Alan what about Barry Crockers version!!!! I played that at a bad taste party recently and had the whole crowd singing

Others are: Maids when you're young never wed an old man Cockles and Mussels Black Velvet Band Maggie/Nora (Slightly bearable when sung in Irish) Wild colonial Boy (even when done to Ghost Riders in the sky) Carrickfergus/Wild Mountain Thyme/Fields of Athenry (depending on who and how sung) Any Irish song sung in Country and Western style

Anyone who wants to experience this The Irish Australian Assoc in Adelaide 4th and 5th Fridays of month.

I feel so much better

Benjamin

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From:
Date: 24 May 97 - 06:17 PM

...and if we're discussing protagonists who were creeps, how about "That's What You Get For Lovin' Me"? I'm still looking for a version of "Banks of the Ohio", a song with a wonderful little melody, that doesn't include murder!

Subject: RE: FOLK SONGS TO DITCH
From: TFT
Date: 24 May 97 - 01:39 PM

What about that song with the "gospel makers" that you have to sit through while people expound on who "the rivals" were? One is one and all alone, and that is what you'll be if you sing that song again!