Chanteys in Royal Navy?

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 14 Apr 24 - 04:20 PM

“It is our particular command that the ship's fiddler, when he shall be called upon to officiate at Guard Mounting, shall abstain from performing sad or lugubrious tunes, such being calculated to depress the spirits of the seamen, and render them miserable for the remainder of the day. Something in the style of “Pop goes the weasel.” is considered the most judicious; and Admirals are directed to give their personal superintendance to the selection of the music.”
[The North Lincoln Sphinx, Royal Lincolnshire Regiment, 1862]

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Jan 24 - 07:35 PM

I have a tiny tie-in to this; my father was in the US Army in WWII, and served in Burma (Myanmar today). He said they were entering a village that the British military (branch?) had just vacated and there in the middle of the dirt road was a crank portable Gramophone. There was apparently a lacquer record on it that had played when the British marched out of the village.

My dad kept it, and I still have it (in my garage, I've never examined it). I remember being astonished by the story and that thing just moved here with much of the rest of his estate. I don't think the disc is with it, but I'll look next time I'm out there. (He was a librarian, and I kind of think a record of that event is what he had in mind when he scooped up the Gramophone. He never used it.)

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Jan 24 - 04:16 PM

In the USN it was "Now hear this! Now hear this!"

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: Charmion
Date: 19 Jan 24 - 03:00 PM

My Dad served in the RN from 1939 to 1946. He remembered that only one "sailor song" seemed to have survived to his time in the oral tradition, and it was not a chantey but the forebitter "Magge May".

Before the advent of the portable gramophone, even in the RN men who had instruments (especially fiddles, concertinas and harmonicas) were encouraged to play them during "makers" (make-and-mend periods) and in the dog watches when most if not all of the ship's company was awake and anticipating dinner.

By the time my Dad went to sea, the gramophone (played through the ship's Tannoy system) had supplanted all that. (He developed a hearty dislike for Vera Lynn during patrol operations in the Indian Ocean.) But the boatswain's call survived, possibly because it, too, could be played through the Tannoy. Orders would begin with that piercing shriek and the phrase "Do you hear there? Do you hear there?"

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 16 Jan 24 - 01:41 AM

Nearest mention of anything like a 'ban' found in Queen's Regs so far:

“Chapter XLVII.
INSTRUCTIONS FOR SUB-LIEUTENANTS.
                        4.
To attend to the Men of his Watch.
When at sea, he is to see that the men of his watch are attentive to their duty, whether as look-out men or having other charge requiring their vigilance and constant attention; and when all hands are on deck for any service he is to take equal care that those at the station in which he is placed, duly obey the orders given with silence and alacrity.”
[The Queen's Regulations and the Admiralty Instructions for the Government of Her Majesty's Naval Service, 1844]

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 26 Aug 23 - 08:03 PM

Melville's _White-Jacket_ (1850) was quoted earlier. Here's another quotation from that work.

//
[pg90]
Now, the ship's cooking required very little science, though Old Coffee often assured us that he had graduated at the New York Astor House, under the immediate eye of the celebrated Coleman and Stetson. All he had to do was, in the first place, to keep bright and clean the three huge coppers, or caldrons, in which many hundred pounds of beef were daily boiled. To this end, Rose-water, Sunshine, and May-day every morning sprang into their respective apartments, stripped to the waist, and well provided with bits of soap-stone and sand. By exercising these in a very vigorous manner, they threw themselves into a violent perspiration, and put a fine polish upon the interior of the coppers.

Sunshine was the bard of the trio; and while all three would be busily employed clattering their soapstones against the metal, he would exhilarate them
[pg91]
with some remarkable St. Domingo melodies; one of which was the following:–

"Oh! I los' my shoe in an old canoe,
    Johnio! come Winum so!
Oh! I los' my boot in a pilot-boat,
    Johnio! come Winum so!
Den rub-a-dub de copper, oh!
    Oh! copper rub-a-dub-a-oh!"

When I listened to these jolly Africans, thus making gleeful their toil by their cheering songs, I could not help murmuring against that immemorial rule of men-of-war, which forbids the sailors to sing out, as in merchant-vessels, when pulling ropes, or occupied at any other ship's duty. Your only music, at such times, is the shrill pipe of the boatswain's mate, which is almost worse than no music at all. And if the boatswain's mate is not by, you must pull the ropes, like convicts, in profound silence; or else endeavour to impart unity to the exertions of all hands, by singing out mechanically, one, two, three, and then pulling all together.
//

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 23 - 06:40 PM

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 23 - 06:40 PM

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 26 Aug 23 - 08:03 PM

Melville's _White-Jacket_ (1850) was quoted earlier. Here's another quotation from that work.

//
[pg90]
Now, the ship's cooking required very little science, though Old Coffee often assured us that he had graduated at the New York Astor House, under the immediate eye of the celebrated Coleman and Stetson. All he had to do was, in the first place, to keep bright and clean the three huge coppers, or caldrons, in which many hundred pounds of beef were daily boiled. To this end, Rose-water, Sunshine, and May-day every morning sprang into their respective apartments, stripped to the waist, and well provided with bits of soap-stone and sand. By exercising these in a very vigorous manner, they threw themselves into a violent perspiration, and put a fine polish upon the interior of the coppers.

Sunshine was the bard of the trio; and while all three would be busily employed clattering their soapstones against the metal, he would exhilarate them
[pg91]
with some remarkable St. Domingo melodies; one of which was the following:–

"Oh! I los' my shoe in an old canoe,
    Johnio! come Winum so!
Oh! I los' my boot in a pilot-boat,
    Johnio! come Winum so!
Den rub-a-dub de copper, oh!
    Oh! copper rub-a-dub-a-oh!"

When I listened to these jolly Africans, thus making gleeful their toil by their cheering songs, I could not help murmuring against that immemorial rule of men-of-war, which forbids the sailors to sing out, as in merchant-vessels, when pulling ropes, or occupied at any other ship's duty. Your only music, at such times, is the shrill pipe of the boatswain's mate, which is almost worse than no music at all. And if the boatswain's mate is not by, you must pull the ropes, like convicts, in profound silence; or else endeavour to impart unity to the exertions of all hands, by singing out mechanically, one, two, three, and then pulling all together.
//

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 19 Aug 23 - 05:12 AM

Dave: Clearly, more 'gathering' on your part was in order.

Lucky you, I have already posted a dozen+ references for RN use of all manner of rhythmic sound when going about any number of tasks in unison, complete with published sheet music for some titles. I also have at least a few authors discouraging the practice, and not just in the RN, (as above.)

Methinks both sides of the debate need work and lots of it.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Dave Hanson
Date: 19 Aug 23 - 03:14 AM

From what I have gathered the Royal Navy was known as a ' silent service ' ie. no shanties.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Aug 23 - 07:51 PM

Based strictly on the maths of the methods, the following may be considered typical of c.1800 onwards RN fiddler's work song:
Lyr Req: Sailor's Hornpipe
Lyr Add: Moll in the Wad
Origins: Off She Goes
Lyr Add: I Am a Brisk and Sprightly Lad

Note: Singing of the chorus was very much allowed and all the above were also commonly known stage, country and Regency dance tunes.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Aug 23 - 05:57 PM

Again, there never was an "official" definition of "chantey" anywhere in the real world maritimes, RN inclusive. There are far more references for the RN's use of maritime work song than there are for "banning" it. And c.1857 it would seem, still no official RN ban in the document record.

Gibb from the windlass doc thread: I recently saw social media posts on behalf of a certain traditional ship’s crew that was saying something like “If you’re able to sing a chantey, you’re not working hard enough.” That kind of misunderstanding, and how we got there, seems to me a shame.

One gets the impression the sentiment is older than the English language. At any rate, the contrarians do have their own history:

“All noise at work, either when at sea or in port, should be discouraged. Constant hails from aloft speak little for the attention of the officers, or the discipline of the ship. If the officer's eye is upon the work going on and the men under him at all times, as it should be, a telltale shake of a rope will be sufficient to have it cleared or let go. No singing should be allowed at the pumps or capstan; and even in trimming or setting sail, the men will work just as well together to the boatswain's mate's pipe as to any song, when they once get into the way of it; independently of the useless noise and confusion which singing out causes, it is very certain that no man can exert his full muscular power, while his lungs are braying out a “Yo heave ho!””
[The Sea Officer's Manual; Being a Compendium of the Duties of a Commander: First, Second, Third, and Fourth Officer; Officer of the Watch; and Midshipman; in the Mercantile Navy, Parish*, 1857]
* “Capt. Alfred Parish, of the East India Merchant Service.”

Just fwiw see: East India ship's fiddler William Litten's music manuscript collection &c. The so-called "Indiamen" sailed as armed merchants and often doubled as supply and troop transports to the RN when needed.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 10:18 AM

Basing this on nothing but common sense, to me what the chantyman and the fifer/fiddler might have had in common is a desire to avoid the very different excesses of life aboard a greatly undermanned merchant vessel or a highly strict-disciplined naval vessel; hence, with a bit of imagination and craft, learning to lead the chanty or play an instrument, neither being necessarily highly-skilled as someone has already pointed out.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 06:28 PM

RE Grievances: Silence/freedom cuts both ways. Labour can't complain, but an overbearing or fanatical management can't preach either. One person's disenfranchisement is another's protection.

And if the sailor's complanyt is the house's out-of-tune fiddler, we're going around in circles.

RE Labour: Ships are a business. The bigger and more complex they get, the more specialized the labour force. The larger ship's 'company' might be a different social class than the 'crew' &c. Smaller vessels or different rigs got by on less. eg: Little of what you'll read online would apply to the 19th century Bermuda sloops.

The few individual fifers I'm aware of (all Americans) were not professional musicians outside naval service. And it seems it wasn't usual for an American naval officer to have a personal fifer on staff.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 06:02 PM

Let's not get bogged down in poststructuralism and deconstructionist thought, neither of which, IMO, is productive of much more than hot air.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 05:55 PM

Harry, I didn't mean you had. I meant only to emphasize that these were airs only - quite as we'd expect.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 05:52 PM

I seem to be missing something here. Has the word 'chanty' however you spell it ever been used anywhere in a historical context to describe anything other than work SONG aboard merchant ships? Nothing personal about it as far as I can see. Your persistent desire to include other things under the term is commendable, but we would like to see some evidence.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 05:00 PM

The vessels mentioned in The Complaynt of Scotland are armed merchant rowing galleys. When the modern genre label gets rolled back to the 16th century, the military and merchant histories & practices become one and the same.

The rowing fleet the U.S. Navy put to sea at the start of the 19th century wasn't all that different.

If your personal, modern definition of “chantey” is a cappella merchant marine, the R.N. is excluded by the class of practitioner, not the practice itself.

If your modern definition allows for both the musical accompaniment of singing and the pure instrumental, the R.N. is a maybe or maybe not for “chantey” according to each consumer.

If you use a period dictionary you will not find “chantey”... period. Your ancestor's word(s) however, would include the R.N. practices by definition.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 07:03 AM

drills, sorry

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 07:02 AM

(...other than endless dills)

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 07:00 AM

What do we know about the role of fifer or fiddler on an R.N. ship? Not all work involved hauling - there were other things to be done and times, especially on a long passage, when not much hauling was needed. So the ABs were doing something else. And if that's off the topic of chanteys what did whoever might have led singing (if there was any) do when a fifer would have fifed?

Was the fifer a 'trained musician' (and was the shantyman a trained singer) or was it an additional skill or something a no longer abled AB did (like the wardroom 'peggy')? Knocking out 'Off she Goes' and 'Drops of Brandy' is, I suspect, nowadays done by untrained (in a formal sense) musicians.

If the fife was used in action is was a specialist job.(for that matter what did gunners do when not fighting).

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Harry
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 04:04 AM

Lighter,

I didn't mean to suggest they sang; I was just providing one example of music being used by the RN to encourage the men in one particular instance.

It doesn't mean all ships would have done the same.

The Articles of War of 1661 & 1749 didn't proscribe singing. I don't have a copy of the Naval Discipline Act of 1866 but I'd be surprised if that did either.

Each ship's Standing Orders would be different; Royal Naval captains were an individual bunch and the way their ships were run would have been equally individual. All the reports I've read support the notion that work would have been conducted as silently as possible so that voiced or piped orders would be heard.

There are many reports of singing and dancing below decks when RN sailors were off watch.

This thread does seem to have drifted away from "Chanteys in the Royal Navy?" towards another general discussion of "chanteys".

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 06:32 PM

fwiw: Maritime work song has always been a social contract between two or more classes; collegia and corpora; labour and (middle) management; oppressed sailors and greedy owners... and everybody has always had a complaint.

Methinks a general preference for the instrumental, or disapproval of lyrics if one prefers, was often in place in the so-called 'proto-shanty' era. And the same attitudes in both classes would limit the selection of all work song and forebitter of any sort.

Sea Shanties from 'The Complaynt' (1549) (Note the stretch in OP's personal definition of the genre label.)

Until they invented Protestant sailors, Western shantying was mostly Catholic, most of the time, or else... You think the Anglican R.N. "Blue Lights" were restrictive? Pffft! Amateurs! The record does note changes in Catholic celeusma and gritaria practices when the Inquisition formally ended... thanks to Nelson, Wellington et al. Coincidently, (??) right about the advent of the shanty era.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 04:36 PM

Howard: ...it seems likely that... seems to be the foundation for most of the standard shanty paradigm.

Pending further research, it seems likely the R.N. used the same ill-defined, uncontrolled practices to hoist spars or cargo or whatevs with their capstans and were not restricted to anchors alone. And over the course of a century or so, one would find much the same variation/deviation in the needs and practices of the merchant fleet(s.) We have not found any formal industry requirements there either, have we?

I could speculate a dozen other reasons to use lyrics or not. Why bother? Bottom line, no documented standards, practices or glossary in either the martial or merchant maritimes... that we know of. Seems likely more detail will turn up eventually if the effort is put in.

The elephant in the room is... it probably doesn't matter unless one needs the lyrics for their commerical production value. Instrumental music limits one's market niche to skilled musicians. Lyrics give you access to every consumer what speaks the language.

Unless, of course, one thinks the English language is a performance enhancement or advantage in physics.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 04:31 PM

http://www.norbeck.nu/abc/lyrics.asp?rhythm=slide&ref=10

Off she goes to Donnybrook Fair..

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 03:23 PM

And - just to be clear - there are no lyrics to either "Off She Goes" or "Drops of Brandy."

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Harry
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 08:05 AM

From:

McInerney, Vincent (Ed). Landsman Hay: the Memoirs of Robert Hay. Barnsley: Seaforth/Pen & Sword Publishing, 2010

Chapter 8, Rear Admiral Sir Edward Pellow - voyage to the East Indies: July-November 1804.

Page 81 . . . .

"All hands up anchor, ahoy! Ship the capstan bars there, carpenters, bring to forward, jump down the tier, man, and coil away the cable."

"Aye, aye sir"

"Are you ready there forward?"

"All ready, sir"

"Heave away. What kind of a drawling tune is that, fifer? Strike up 'Off She Goes' or 'Drops of Brandy'. Keep step there, all of you, and stamp and go. Light round the messenger there, aft, hand forward the nippers, you boys.

"The anchor is a-peak, sir"

Robert Hay ran away from home, aged 14, to join the Royal Navy in July 1803 and he served until 1811. His memoir was written in 1820/1

This edition, the one I have, is an an abridgement of an edition published in 1953 by Rupert Hart-Davies edited together with other material published in the Paisley Magazine.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 05:29 AM

Whether or not there was a formal prohibition, it seems likely that singing during work would be contrary to the Royal Navy's customs and practice, as it would be considered prejudicial to good discipline. It would not have to be spelled out in the Kings Regulations, it might simply be not the "done thing" and therefore not allowed. Especially as in the merchant marine shanties were often used as an opportunity to criticise the officers, which would not be tolerated in the Navy. A tune on a fiddle would be sufficient to co-ordinate effort without allowing the sailors to voice their discontent.

That would not mean shanties might not be used on isolated occasions. A good officer would know when bending the rules and allowing the men to let off steam during a particularly difficult task could prevent future trouble.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 06:51 AM

Harry: I'm clear on some folk's personal definition of song does not include musical accompaniment and/or straight up instrumentals. Different definition of song; different answer to the same question. That's all one needs to know.

Now if Jamieson has anything like an R.N. standard definition or formal prohibition, that I would like to see.

I think it's folklore like the R.N. boatswain's pipe capstan shanties but I'm still wading through the sources. Who knows what will turn up?

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Harry
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 04:06 AM

Phil,

In the context of "Chanteys in the Royal Navy", I think it's quite clear that, in this article, Kate Jamieson is arguing that songs to accompany work (chanteys, shanties, or whatever label one attaches to them) weren't allowed, but musical accompaniment sometimes was.

Admittedly, her article doesn't quote sources, but she is contactable should you want clarification.

She certainly has a more lucid style than you.

Harry

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 07:35 PM

Anachronism - The representation of someone as existing or something as happening in other than chronological, proper, or historical order. ie: Your maritime practice predates your popular genre label. They just called them "songs"... mostly.

Historyextra.com manages to qualify shanty as both "is" and "is not" maritime work song, generally, where the R.N. was concerned, with exception(s.) Good thing they're not writing purchase orders!

"Although contrary to popular belief, the Royal Navy didn’t generally allow shanties as work songs." [historyextra.com]

"The exception to this musical naval rule when working was the use of a fiddler or flautist when manning the capstan to weigh anchor." [[e-mail]]

There are so many "exceptions" the word has lost its meaning.

Also, one suspects the 'boatswain's pipe capstan shanty' is a figment of some landsman's penny dreadful imaginations but... still checking. Calls are not all that musical and actually tuned to be a tad jarring to the ear & brain. They would give prep & execute commands over the fiddle or flute tempo much like a Drill Instructor calling manual of arms to the pace of the march.

PS: When conversing with the cognoscenti, one may drop the execrable “sea.” However, when navigating cyberspace, there are at least nine variations on the theme. But last time I checked, Alexa©® couldn't tell the difference between shanty, chantey, chanty & tzhanteh. The illiterate 19th century sailor was in the same boat.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Harry
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 05:16 AM

Unfortunately, the article isn't referenced, but this (below) is extracted from:

Brief History of Sea Shanties

Sea shanties and the Royal Navy

Music has been an important aspect of life onboard ships throughout the years, on merchant voyages, whaling ships and even blockade duty in both the 18th and early 19th centuries. Although contrary to popular belief, the Royal Navy didn’t generally allow shanties as work songs.

Captain Edward Riou of the frigate HMS Amazon once wrote that “all good officers aimed to work their ship with a minimum of noise… so that when a loud and general order comes from the mouth of the Captain, every man may hear and comprehend.” Captain Thomas Louis once wrote that he strictly cautioned against noise either on deck or aloft in the yards – the horizontal spars on the masts from which the sails were set. He claimed that the officer commanding on the forecastle should be the only voice heard, in order to save the unnecessary repetition of orders.

James Gardiner of the Barfleur wrote that he had seen his ship “brought to an anchor and the sails furled like magic, without a voice being heard” except the Captain. The exception to this musical naval rule when working was the use of a fiddler or flautist when manning the capstan to weigh anchor. In fact, the famous naval officer Edward Pellew once pressed the second violinist of the Lisbon Opera, Joseph Emidy, to play music for and entertain the crew of HMS Indefatigable. Emidy himself led an interesting life, and later went on to become the leader of the Truro Philharmonic.

The Royal Navy was not miserable, however, and plenty of ships allowed singing in the evenings once work was done both at sea and to while away the time on blockade duty. These ‘forbitter’ songs, sung at the forecastle, afore the ‘bitts’ of the ship, were generally either traditional songs, songs from theatres or even ones composed by the men themselves, such as the famous ‘Spanish Ladies’.

The story goes that ‘Spanish Ladies’ was written in around 1796, onboard HMS Nellie, gaining popularity throughout the Peninsular War when British soldiers were being transported home by sea, hence the reference of the distance from Ushant (an island off the coast of Brittany) to the Isles of Scilly. It’s thought that the lyrics discuss the fact that they were not permitted to bring home their Spanish wives and lovers. The song gained further notoriety, however, on the merchant ships of the period who then used it as a capstan shanty.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 07:51 PM

Bump for the Is Folk a Dirty Word folks.

"Shanty" never had a naval science definition. It's pop culture. What does it mean to you and to the other sides of the producer, artist, consumer cultural exchange?

Substitute your personal definition in the same sentence. e.g. historically: The rhythmic sounds mariners make when going about tasks in unison.

Note the absence of any martial/mercantile distinctions. Ergo, the answer is yes. The more critical attributes defined the higher the exclusion ratio. Instrumentals will lose you a lot of shanty consumers right off the top.

But... none of it changes the nonfiction naval science of R.N. practice.

Earliest Commercial Shanty Recordings lists as many 'authentic' vocational group work songs as your average Belafonte album has 'authentic' calypso road marches or Jamaican stevedore chants. It can still be popular and profitable if it's fun to begin with.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 01:07 PM

A couple of turn-of-the-century citations from the Naval Chronicle reflecting a greater awareness of the classics and Western culture than one generally finds today:

“The ?e?e?st?? or hortator remigium, is by some considered as the Boatswain; his duty was to repeat the orders to the rowers , and to distribute their allowance to the Ship's Company…. The last Officer whom we shall notice, though several other professional names occur in antient writers, was the >?<, or Musician, who endeavoured both by his voice and skill on whatever instrument he performed, to cheer the spirits of the Rowers:
        Acclivis malo mediis intersonat Orpheus
        Remigiis, tantos que jubet neocire labores.
                                        Statius, Theb. V. v. 343
        Against the mast the tuneful Orpheus stands,
        Plays to the weary'd rowers, and commands
        The thought of toil away.”
[Memoirs of Navigation and Commerce from the Earliest Period, The Naval Chronicle, Vol.II, 1799, pp.186-187]

“The modern Boatfwain is discovered in those duties which the Keleustes of the Greeks performed; he passed the word of command throughout the vessel, and also assisted in distributing the ship's allowance of provisions…. and the sprightly notes of the drum and fife, by which the labour of the capstan-bars is at present so much abated, was a delightful task assigned to the Grecian Trieraules, who stood before the mast, and cheered his weary shipmates with the exhilarating music of the Canaanites.

        Against the mast the tuneful Orpheus stands,
        Plays to the wearied rowers, and commands
        The thought of toil away:
                        Statius, Theb. V. v. 343”
[The Naval Chronicle, Vol.X, 1803, p.407]

Note: The scanned PDFs are a little fuzzy, mind the Latin and Greek transciptions.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: goatfell
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 09:20 AM

The drunken sailor

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: goatfell
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 09:20 AM

The drunken sailor

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 08:44 AM

I don't even know what a shanty is

Well these guys seem to Phil:


Try This

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 02:52 AM

Another long one with some interesting detail:

“...fiddler and fifer all ready to strike up any favorite tune amongst the ship's company. The moment the end of each hawser enters the hawse-hole, away with it, strike up fiddler or fifer, and make a clear run fore and aft the deck until you get in the slack...” [p.65]

“By having the fiddler to play to the men while stoning the decks, I have invariably found that they have rubbed harder, and kept time to the music; this method will prevent that chit chat which you so often hear between the men while stoning the decks, their attention being quite taken up with their work and the music. It always struck me that the decks were better and sooner done in this manner, and the men in much better spirits.” [pp.74-75]

“Ships are frequently deficient of the music which Jack likes best—his favorite fiddle. We have often heard the sailors say, that it was no dance without a little cat-gut. If the seamen have such a liking for this instrument, would it not be desirable to have a rating for a fiddler on board of each of Her Majesty's ships having any stated number of men, with an allowance for a fiddle, and strings. This expense, a few years ago (I believe still) falls upon the senior lieutenant, or by subscription amongst the crew, therefore fiddle or no fiddle, according to fancy. The want of a good fiddler to a ship is a very great loss. A good fifer may do well, but the fife is not the favorite instrument with sailors ; neither can the fifer play so long ; and has many more excuses for not being able to play, such as sore lips, cold, weak chest, with many other et ceteras, which all those who have had these things to contend with, will know too well about. Look at the heavy work of catting and fishing anchors, hoisting topsails, &c. You could far better spare ten men in a full-manned large vessel, while doing this work, than the fiddler or fifer. Every one who has attended to the catting and fishing of an anchor, with or without music, must have remarked the spirited way in which an anchor is walked up with music, the men's feet keeping time beautifully to the tune. You have only to see the same anchor catted without music, to know the effect of the combination of force when applied, by keeping time to music.” [p.302-303]
[Professional Recollections on Points of Seamanship, Liarden, 1849]

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 02:49 AM

For a moment there I thought I might have posted the wrong link! I read it again, where do you get Challenger had steam driven capstans?

“No shanties required in the Royal Navy because of the following factors..."
You might be right. I don't even know what a shanty is, goes double for the instrumentals.

However, none of what you write applies to nautical work song or proceleusmatics and that's what the sources are saying the Royal Navy, and pretty much every other fleet, used in some form or fashion.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 10:24 PM

GROAN, read the link related to the latest from Phil. and see how it compares to the title of this thread.

HMS Challenger - a steam Frigate - so she had steam driven capstans [No Capstan shanties required], Steam bilge pumps {No pumping shanties required[ - In short nothing more required by any "musician" on board than to "entertain" the crew.

No shanties required in the Royal Navy because of the following factors:

1. Useless to work the ship while in action stations, so why encourage the practice at all.
2. Crews of Royal Navy ships vastly outnumbered crews of merchant vessels [Composite Clipper had a crew of 34 men, a Royal Navy 74 carried a crew of 550 men], so more than enough hands available to satisfactorily complete any seaman-like evolution and fight the ship without the need for musical accompaniment.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 05:58 PM

Batten down your glossaries:

“On board the Challenger*, during her scientific cruise round the world, we had many, both officers and men, who took an interest in musical matters. Although we had no chaplain, our church services were fairly creditable. We also got up some part-songs. We had a volunteer brass band of about twelve. The men composing it had no previous knowledge of music. They were taught by a man who was rated on the ship’s books as a “musician,” a man who is supposed to stand on the capstan and fiddle a tune to the men “to heave round” to. This man was certainly an instructor, if he was not a musician in the highest sense of the word.” [p.4]

“I will now venture to give you my opinion of what I consider generally the style of music suited to the requirements of the Royal Navy, parenthetically remarking that the relations between that service and the Mercantile Marine are becoming so close that whatever style of music is adopted by the former, the latter are sure to follow suit.” [p.7]

“Mr. HAVERGAL.— … Referring to the “forebitter,” the one you describe would almost seem to do as well. There is one kind of “ fore-bitter,” which I think is very much in vogue in the Merchant Service. I think it is called “Shanties,” or some such name. It is, however, totally distinct from the old man-of-warsman “fore-bitter.” The one I made allusion to was essentially one belonging to the Royal Navy at that time. I don’t think I know of any published “fore-bitter,” either in words or tune. There may, possibly,__be something approaching it, but it is almost impossible to write any music of that kind.” [p.12]
[Music in the Royal Navy, RMA Proceedings, Havergal, 1891]

*HMS Challenger was steam-assisted corvette, a sailing auxiliary.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 15 Jul 19 - 06:05 AM

French Navy. It's a long one and full of typos I'm sure. Lots of standard shanty party line plus some interesting bits:

LE CHANT ET LES MANŒUVRES
Dès lu plus haute antiquité on constate l'usage des chants et leur pouvoir sur les hommes appelés à déployer de la force avec ensemble. Le navire Argo éprouva quelque résistance dans son départ: mais Orphée soutient par ses chants les efforts des matelots qu'il encourage et bientôt le vaisseau prend les flots.

Servius dans son commentaire sur le VIIIe chant de l'Eneide, définit le celeusma: «clamor nauticus ad hortandum ut: Nunc, nunc incubite remis.» Un pussage de Lucien, la traversee fait aussi allusion à cette coutume:
— Charon. Rame done, je me contenterai de ce paiement.
— Cvniscus. Ne faut-il pas ausssi chanter une chanson de rameurs?
— Charon. Oui, par Jupiter, si tu en sais quelqu'une bonne pour les marins.

Tous les travaux de peine, toutes les manœuvres de force étaientf aites à bord — et cette habitude se conserva en France sur les navires de guerre jusque vers 1820, — au bruit d'un chant rhythmé ou d'un cri cadencé, auquel l'excitation du sifflet a fini par succéder.

Sur les bâtiments de commerce, où la force n'est pas toujours en proportion avec les résistances a vaincre, et où les exclamations encourageantes, les cris excitants, sont nécessaires dans la plupart des cas, on crie encore pour lever l'ancre : Allons, garçon, tire encore un coup, je la vois! Cette forme abrégée qui était employée dés le xvi siècle ainsi qu'on peut le voir dans la Complaint of Scotland, est restée longtemps dans la marine de guerre.

A bord des navires de commerce allemands, lever les ancres, hisser les voiles ou les canots, en général toute manœuvre qui exige un déploiement de forces et surtout d'efforts simultanés, se fait au bruit des chansons….. Ces chants de travail, comme on pourrait les appeler, ont tous la même mesure. Le chanteur entonne d'ahord une strophe, et tous reprennent un court refrain qui donne la cadence à laquelle tous les efforts doivent se réunir.

Aux Indes, les mariniers ne sauraient remuer une corde qu'en chantant, ni la prendre même qu'au milieu du chant.

Sur les pirogues de course du Cambodge se tient au milieu, debout sur les banes, un improvisateur, barbouillé de blanc ou peint de couleurs étránges. Il chante, Il déclame et accentue sou discours de contorsions burlesques. La fin de sa phrase, accompagnée d'un geste saccadé, est accueillie de tout l'équipage par un cri bref et sauvage qui mesure la cadence du mouvement des pagaies. Il célèbre les hauts faits de sa pirogue, raconte ses victoires passées, couvre ses concurrents de lazzis et de quolibets, entretient et ranime par ses saillies l'entrain des nageurs.

Dans les pirogues, les Néo-Zélandais règlent le mouvement de leurs pagaies sur un chant dont les paroles sont Tohi ha, Pahi hia, hia, ha, etotki, etoki, paroles qu'ils modulent de toutes sortes de façons.

Suivant un dicton de marins, cité par Dana, p.147, une chanson vaut dix hommes.

Il semble que les anciens Finnois avaient une répulsion pour les chants: On ne doit point chanter sur la mer, on ne doit point chanter au milieu des vagues: le chant engendre la paresse et arrête les bras des rameurs.”
[Review des Traditions Populaires, Vol.XV, 1900, pp.202-203]

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 06 May 19 - 11:17 PM

The Portuguese tradition is joined at the hip with the Anglo-American under the tag "Western." English speaking Catholics used to call them celeusma too. Right straight through all this time the Scots did their irruma.

The Mudcat-Wiki-Hugill Anglo-American shanty went global as a fong, song, tune &c, with or without lyrics, long before 1840.

The real memories & traditions got lost when they fell into disuse and others invented to take their place. Not unusual in any subject.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 May 19 - 08:41 PM

whistle while you work....

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 19 - 07:31 PM

Enough, put this discussion to bed.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 06 May 19 - 07:10 PM

Oooops. As if y'all couldn't guess, t'was I.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 19 - 07:08 PM

Yank Navy and not just any old thread drift:

“'All hands up anchor!'

When that order was given, how we sprang to the bars, and heaved round that capstan; every man a Goliath, every tendon a hawser!–round and round–round, round it spun like sphere keeping time with our feet to the time of the fifer, till the cable was straight up and down, and the ship with her nose in the water.

'Heave and pall! Unship your bars, and make sail!'”
[Melville, Herman, White Jacket, (New York: Grove, 1850, p.20)]
White-Jacket
USS United States (1797)

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 06 May 19 - 07:01 PM

Gibb: Let me expand on that. One should expect the work song to match the workers what sing them. I have, howsomever, located one hard ban so far.

National University of San Marcos, Lima, Peru, 1551
Louisiana Purchase, c.1804
Shanties, c.1850

The Portuguese were not Protestant. They did not use English genre labels for their nautical work songs nor did they sing in English. They did not differentiate instrumental from vocal. Fifer = shantyman.

The Portuguese saloma is the direct descendant of the Greek keleusma. Etymology solved. Portuguese nautical work song traditions were firmly in place for at least two millennia prior to the founding of the National University and two centuries prior to the popular print media appearance of the English shanty on the Yank's Gulf Coast.

And banned they were in at least the post-Napoleonic, West Indian, Portuguese Fleet! Extrapolate to other oceans and Navies with caution.

“SALOMA. He a cantiga, ou gritaria, que fazem os marinheiros , quando alão algum cabo, cujo salomear he prohibido nos nossos Navios de Guerra.”
[Campos, Mauricio Da Costa Campos, Vocabulario Marujo, (Rio De Janeiro, 1823, p.93)]

The RN never used shanties. Only a tiny minority of the world's mariners, late to the practice, ever used the tag. The RN used songs and tunes to keep in step; often without lyrics that weren't mandatory in the first place.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 May 19 - 04:16 PM

Oh. you New York gals, can't you dance the polka?