BS: brexit matters

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 06:16 PM

Do you really believe that racsim had no influence on the vote in the referendum? Do you really believe that those who voted to leave were not influence whatsoever on the leave campaigns promises? Do you really believe that the assurances by the leave campaign that there would be serious discussions about UK being part of EAA or EFTA were nothing but a pack of lies? Do you really believe that those who voted leave did so on that basis of reliquishing European democracy to the rights of havngfacism impoosed by the UK government.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 06:05 PM

You didn't give us a list.

Very Thatcherite of you. The trouble is that you are are crediting, in sentiment if not expressly, that Tory harpy with vision. The same vision that destroyed our industrial base, let loose the city spivs with virtually no regulation (that eventually led to the crash in 2008), put millions on tbe scrapheap for ideological reasons, destroyed whole communities and virtually had her making love to a murderous fascist. My word, what vision. And it's one that you share.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 05:55 PM

"This vote succeeded in what it achieved - it made scapegoats of immigrants for a government no longer to control the economy and serve the people it was elected to represent."
That I am afraid is a unique Jimmy interpretation of the referendum result. In reality it was a vote to indicate whether we should stay or leave the EU. Why people voted the way they did may or may not be demonstrated by subsequent polls. Recently the accuracy of all polls has been shown to be questionable,

To say " our parents lived through periods of mass unemployment" is perfectly true-as the economy crashes so do job opportunities. For the same reason employment in heavy industry and mining declined steadily post WW2 in the UK. Structural changes and globalism forced change.
Production will go to the location where the costs of production are lowest. Why mine coal in the UK when it can be shipped in at less cost? Why make steel when China can provide it for less cost?
It is an extremely naive view to think it is deliberate government policy to destroy any industry just to spite the unions. It is purely an economic decision, although when pip squeak union leaders think they can dictate to government I am sure the government of the day does not mind a slight investment to poke them in the eye and demonstrate who is boss. Government does not create the changed economic realities, all it can do is react to them. It is the type of reaction from government that requires censure.
A typical example is the aircraft industry through the fifties. A total clusterf*****k of companies, projects, wasted investments....
The list goes on. The industry should have been rationalised and shrunk long before events forced the changes. Market leaders in the late 40's

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 05:53 PM

You started it, Terriblyboring:-

11 Sep 17 - 03:24 AM

"This from Backwardsman:"
Same post: "Hate to point this out to you Numbnuts"

You've got a very short memory. Or you're a cunt. I'd like to think it's the former, but I've got a strong feeling it's the latter. You've got that reputation.

When people give me shit, they get it back. Start behaving like a civilised human being, and you'll get the same in return. Your choice, I don't give a damn.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 05:40 PM

Cast out the plank, Billyboy, cast out the plank...😂

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 05:36 PM

Er, what "mass unemployment," Al? That is not what we're being told, is it? We certainly had mass unemployment under Maggie. Would you care to explain how that was linked to our EU membership? You're not making a lot of sense to me...

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 05:33 PM

"That dirty fucker's farted again! For fuck's sake open the windows! If he does it again, chuck his bedding out of the billet and let it get soaked in the rain! That'll teach the cunt." - Backwoodsman

And he's the TWAT complaining about - "rudeness and name-calling" - Priceless.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 04:29 PM

the other side is calling names - so i'm going to call names. i'm going to out-stupid the stupidest bastards in the world.

i'm not saying we will recreate jerusalem in england's green and pleasant land.

what i am saying is that our parents lived through periods of mass unemployment, and they taught most of us there was an intrinsic value in being someone that was useful enough to society to have gainful employment.

it wasn't going to be fulfilling, a dream come true - but it was going to feel better than being superfluous to society and living on what the rich allowed to trickle down.

membership of the commonmarket has entailed losing those jobs. we couldn't control it. the way we sustained fullish employment was subsidy. according to eu rules - that is unfair competition - despite the fact that all our eu friends are in deadly competition with us, and practice many forms of protectionism on the sly.

calling me names won't alter those facts. the out vote was a reaction from all those areas of our country where the commonmarket has caused mass unemployment with all its social problems.

now give us some tdea of how we would call self interested other countries to account - should we stay in the EU, which is what you and most uk politicians want......or you could just go back to name calling.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 03:41 PM

Jimmy and Shaw I could do a Father Christmas Ho Ho Ho after reading your respective posts. Just too funny for words. When do you start your comedy duo?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 03:34 PM

The insulting hate-fest is your stock-in-trade, Iains, as you've been reminded of many times. By far the worst offender by a country mile is your chief ally Teribus, whom I have never ONCE heard you criticise. It behoves you to keep quiet about insults, etc., at least until you have been free of the habit for a goodly while. It seems that you share the Teribus school of thought, which dictates that you think it's right and proper to insult, ridicule and abuse the names of people simply because you think you're right and they're wrong. It's even worse than that, actually. You KNOW you're right, so you think. I'm not exactly innocent myself (I'm trying harder), so I tend to avoid diversions of this kind, so please just cut the sanctimonious bullshit. It really doesn't suit you, literally. Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 02:41 PM

"I have never made death threats against Brexit supporters,"
Bet you didn't ask non-British residents when they were going home on the day after the referendum either - or were part of the rapid rise in racist incidents following the result
This vote succeeded in what it achieved - it made scapegoats of immigrants for a government no longer to control the economy and serve the people it was elected to represent.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 02:37 PM

Nothing wrong with discussion, it can continue up to the wire. It is what democracy thrives on. It all goes pear-shaped when opposing sides turn their differing points of view into an insulting hate fest.
Perhaps some use this as a ploy to have threads closed when the ayes seem to have it. Possibly we should have the tune from Deliverance
softly playing in the background as we compose our responses, it may temper them.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 02:14 PM

Iain's - there are plenty of Brexiteers who post very aggressively. Your friend Terriblyboring is a prime example - rudeness and name-calling from the outset, naysaying without providing any kind of evidence for his claims.

I have personally been told on numerous occasions, on other forums, that I'm a 'traitor' because I voted Remain, and that I should either be deported, or arrested and shot. I've also been frequently told that I have no right to oppose Brexit, and that I'm denied that right 'because we voted for democracy', so I must 'shut up and get behind my country or suffer the consequences'.

I have never made death threats against Brexit supporters, I've never told them to shut up or suffer the consequences.

Democracy involves discussion and constant review of issues and decisions made, and it provides for changes of heart, and changes to decisions, in the light of changing circumstances. Democracy encourages open discussion, it does not stifle it.

Think about that.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 02:04 PM

The only good thing to come out of Brexit is the display of idiocy by the Tory Party which lost them their majority and undermined their credibility
It has also exposed how thin their take on democracy is their joining league with a Party with terrorist links and bunging then a billion of taxpayers money- you couldn't make it up
Long may they reign
Other than that it has been an utter disaster so far and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 02:00 PM

The government is a minority, not a majority - that's the reason it had to spend one-and-a-half billion pounds of taxpayers' money to bribe the DUP to enter into a Confidence and Supply Agreement. The C&SA is not the same thing as a Coalition, and does not make the DUP a part of the government.

The Tories are a minority government, and it is completely undemocratic of them to expect to hold a majority on Parliamentary committees (thereby enabling them to railroad through amendments to EU Laws, and other subsequent Law-making, which otherwise may be defeated at the committee stage).

Confidence & Supply v. Coalition

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 01:57 PM

Tootler.Of 168 polls carried out since the EU referendum wording was decided last September(2015), fewer than a third (55 in all) predicted a leave vote.

The actual result on the night came in at 51.9% leave, 48.1% remain. Just 16 of 168 individual polls predicted a 52:48 split in favour of leave.

Polls did give a sense of the swing to leave in the first weeks of June, but edged back to favour remain in the final days before the vote. Just two of six polls released the day before the referendum – those carried out by TNS and Opinium – gave leave the edge.

Just goes to show that no politician should take things for granted.
Plan A was shambolic, plan B was not even contemplated. The present is the result.
It is a shame many others cannot post in your measured fashion.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 01:55 PM

"Stupid argument. The composition of the committees reflects the membership of the house. The government of the day has the majority
until such time as it falls. Whether it be Tory, Labour, coalition, it matters not a jot.
"Attempted whitewash of Tory power Grab jiggery pokery" can be simplified. Try RUBBISH!"

Not rubbish, I'm afraid. It matters a big jot, because this is a minority government that has a confidence and supply deal with the DUP. A true reflection of this in committees would mean that no committee had an overall majority of Tories. It is not a coalition government and the Tories do not have a Commons majority in any constitutional sense whatsoever. The deal with the DUP is an informal arrangement that is neither legally nor constitutionally binding. Gina Miller this week has demonstrated that it was improper to offer the deal to the DUP without parliamentary approval. This attempted usurping of powers malarkey knows no bounds with this lot. You guys blathered on interminably during the campaign about "taking back control." So here we have a prime minister who failed to win a mandate improperly grabbing as much control as she can. Ironic really.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Tootler
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 01:41 PM

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus - PM
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 05:23 AM

"After all it was a leaver who murdered an MP"

Not only stupid but inaccurate...

OK you can argue that technically my statement about Thomas Mair being a leaver was inaccurate. Maybe Imshould have said "Leave supporter" but stupid? Justify that statement because I contend it's not.

As far as "Brexshitter" and similar terms are concerned I no longer use such terms. I normally refer to leave supporters either as "Brexiters" or "Leavers" and I ask Leave supporters to treat us with respect and use similar terms for Remain supporters.

We are not traitors. We believe that Brexit will profoundly damage the UK and we don't want that to happen and have a perfect right to argue against Brexit. The UK is a democracy and part of being a democracy is the right to disagree and to do so lawfully. The extreme Brexiters seem hell bent on shutting any debate down, possibly because they believe in their heart of hearts they have a very weak case so they invoke the word "democracy" to do the opposite and stifle democratic debate.

As to Cameron's "we'll implement the result". Although they didn't put it that way, the Supreme Court in the Miller case made it pretty clear he had no right to make that statement as it was up to parliament to decide what to do about the result as the referendum was advisory.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 12:37 PM

Backwardsman is just a bit of an "Alarmist" who hasn't a clue how Parliament works. It appears to be a bit of a failing of our coterie of middle-class, past it, trendy lefties - yabbering on about things they know nothing about.

He probably misses the Epworth Perma thread where he, Rookery4 and Musktwat spent all their time telling each other how good they were.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 12:26 PM

Stupid argument. The composition of the committees reflects the membership of the house. The government of the day has the majority
until such time as it falls. Whether it be Tory, Labour, coalition, it matters not a jot.
"Attempted whitewash of Tory power Grab jiggery pokery" can be simplified. Try RUBBISH!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 12:05 PM

Here you go - a bit more about the dirty work the minority Tory government are up to right now...

Attempted Whitewash of Tory Power-Grab Jiggery-Pokery

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 12:05 PM

Here you go - a bit more about the dirty work the minority Tory government are up to right now...

Attempted Whitewash of Tory Power-Grab Jiggery-Pokery

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 10:49 AM

I was showing you that Labour hasn't got a monopoly on internal divisions. That was the point of my post. I should think I'm entitled to respond in that way if I disagree with a post that implies that Labour is the only party that needs to work on unity. This is a discussion forum, by the way, not an election campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 10:44 AM

I don't think Steve's use of those terms matches the gutter press campaign against Corbyn, Nigel.

Not so much double standards as trying to compare apples with hand grenades.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 10:40 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 09:59 AM

! Eurosceptic backwoodsmen (with apologies, John), the DUP, little Englanders, chaps who can't decide whether they are Tories or Ukippers, Moggites, Camorons, plotters, the Davis buffoon and good old Ken. Let me remind you that the vilification of Corbyn and Labour that appeared to be the one and only tactic of the Tories in the election rebounded very badly on them.

Yes, explain that vilification of Corbyn didn't work, while vilifying your opponents by the use of terms like 'little Englanders','buffoon' and 'Camorons'.

Double standards anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 10:37 AM

It's Guido Fawkes, chaps and chapesses. Nice to know before you click.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 10:33 AM

JAMES WHO???????????????????????

Let us see what reuters has to say:



https://order-order.com/2017/09/11/textbook-despitebrexit-from-reuters/

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 10:31 AM

Backwardsman - more final appearances than Frank Sinatra

"so I'll leave it here and come back to say "I told you so" in three or four years' time"

Go on then Arsefirst - Do it your way.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 10:21 AM

I enjoyed that!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 10:11 AM

No worries, Steve, although I don't agree with everything the EU does, I'm far from being a Eurosceptic!👍😄

Another good laugh here!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 09:59 AM

I call that honest and healthy and good for debate. At this point I suppose we don't need to talk about those right-wing Tory eurosceptics who made Cameron feel obliged to call a disastrous and undemocratic referendum, or Theresa May to call a completely unnecessary election which had the sole aim of shaking them off and which had nothing to do with the interests of this country. And nobody mention Ken Clarke, of course. And I hope you don't want the Tories to agree with the DUP, without whom they wouldn't be in power by now. Gosh, now there's another broad church then! Eurosceptic backwoodsmen (with apologies, John), the DUP, little Englanders, chaps who can't decide whether they are Tories or Ukippers, Moggites, Camorons, plotters, the Davis buffoon and good old Ken. Let me remind you that the vilification of Corbyn and Labour that appeared to be the one and only tactic of the Tories in the election rebounded very badly on them. I see you haven't learned that lesson yet. You should listen to Jezza's interview. You probably don't agree with a single word he says but just note the calm and measured delivery. That's how he did it and that's how he's going to do it even better next time. Be very afraid, Theresa!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 09:37 AM

"Corbyn is whipping his MPs to vote against Brexit even though he privately supports it. Caroline Flint says MPs should rebel against the Labour whip. Thanks to Keir Starmer Labour officially want to stay in the single market during the transition, even though Corbynistas think the single market is a neoliberal tool of the bosses and want to leave it. Tom Watson says Labour could stay in the single market forever, yet John McDonnell says we have to leave it to respect the referendum result. Frontbenchers Jon Ashworth and Jenny Chapman say Watson is wrong, Heidi Alexander and Alison McGovern say he is right. Diane Abbott and Clive Lewis say Labour must support free movement, Corbyn and Starmer say free movement will end after Brexit. Barry Gardiner says staying in the customs union would be a "disaster", yet Starmer says we should remain in "a" customs union during the transition. Watson says we could stay in indefinitely. Tony Blair says we should just stay in the EU. Got that?"

Perhaps they should swap parliament for the Edinburgh fringe.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 09:36 AM

Interesting how we heard so much about taking back control and the sovereignty of Parliament in tbe campaign, yet here we are with a minority Tory government wanting to grab sole control over thousands of laws away from parliamentary scrutiny.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 09:32 AM

That would be Isabel Hardman I presume, John. I'm quite a fan meself...😜

Interesting how Jezza is manipulating and shifting the brexit agenda. Whether these diehard and blinkered brexiteers like it or not, he has an audience. He was very sure-footed in the World At One interview.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stu
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 07:41 AM

Odd how everyone agrees it's power grab except the grabbers.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 07:32 AM

The delicious Isabel Hartman on 'Daily Politics' right now, talking about the Tory government's power-grab which I mentioned in my earlier post, and over which Teriboring is in complete denial.

Are you watching, Tez? You really do need to.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 07:15 AM

Nope, sorry to piss on your strawberries, Teribore, I'm not any of The Muskets (although I do know one of them in The Real World).

Anyway....Here you go...

And, to give us all a laugh at the very silly, Union-Flag-underpants BrexShitters...Arrff, arrff, arrff...!!

Now, I have a life, songs to write, tunes to learn, and a dog to walk, so I'll leave it here and come back to say "I told you so" in three or four years' time

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 07:12 AM

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stu - PM
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 08:47 AM

We were politically independent before. When was the last time any of us voted for a representative in another country?

22 May 2014

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 07:00 AM

How silly you are.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 05:44 AM

So Hurricanes and global warming are now crimes according to Shaw, but perhaps cannot be blamed on brexit. What an imagination the boy has- he is totally batshit crazy of course!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 05:44 AM

You think that the considerable spike in hate crimes had nothing to do with the referendum campaign? My word. Anything else you'd care to deny?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 05:37 AM

Tell me Shaw. Are fairy tales your forte?

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 05:26 AM

Mebbe. But there's a good chance that that particular hate crime, committed by a white supremacist, along with many others following the referendum, would not have happened had it not been for the divisive, xenophobic, racist leave campaign. As with hurricanes and global warming, individual crimes are not predictable nor able to be ascribed to brexit, but there can't be much doubt that months of spouting inflammatory racist nonsense about the country being taken over, swamped by foreigners coming here for a benefits lifestyle or taking our jobs, driving down wages, burdening our health service and filling our air with nasty foreign languages led to consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 05:23 AM

"After all it was a leaver who murdered an MP"

Not only stupid but inaccurate.

Jo Cox MP was murdered on the 16th June 2016. He murderer, Thomas Mair, was arrested almost immediately after the murder on the same day. Mair was charged on the 18th June and appeared at the Old Baily on the 20th June.

The EU Referendum was held on the 23rd June, 2016. Being in custody Thomas Mair could not cast a vote, so he can hardly be described as a leaver unless of course you want all those who did not vote classed as "leavers".

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 05:08 AM

"After all it was a leaver who murdered an MP"
What a remarkably stupid, divisive statement. According to that font of socialist wisdom the gruniard, the man was an extreme rightwing terrorist. To include him with those that voted leave is the hall mark of a fool.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 04:59 AM

Simple answer. If leavers really believe in UK sovereignty, then let them pay for a referendum on every proposed SI on a departure from implementing EU laws in then UK to the letter. Let leavers pay for a referendum on whether or not to implement future EU laws and regulations where they would have had an impact in UK. Let the people decide, not excrement like May, Rudd, Johnson, Gove.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 04:44 AM

Thanks Shaw that was a good laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 04:38 AM

Henry VIII...

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stu
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 04:34 AM

My, we are all a tad scratchy this morning aren't we? Have a brew and calm down muckers!

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 04:33 AM

Oh dear someone having a hissyfit. Perhaps a kind forum fairy will delete him! or are some allowed to post what others cannot?