BS: Sentencing children to die in prison

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 11:28 AM

There is no "UK" system. The Children's Panel system in Scotland uses entirely different procedures for dealing with children which are nothing like a criminal trial of an adult.

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 11:19 AM


By "trying as an adult" the suggestion is already that the person is guilty, which is against law and custom in all but the most retrograde legal systems.
No, "Trying as an adult" does not suggest that the person is already guilty, or you could move straight to sentencing. When someone is sent to trial there must be some evidence which points to that person being guilty, but it is then put before Magistrates, or a Jury to decide whether the evidence is sufficient.
In UK at least, there is a presumption of innocence, which continues until such time as a guilty verdict has been achieved.

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Thompson
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 10:01 AM

Nigel writes: Yes, but where to draw the line? Some adults have the 'mental age' of children, and some children are exceptionally precocious.

A child is a child. It is inappropriate to sentence a child as an adult.

By "trying as an adult" the suggestion is already that the person is guilty, which is against law and custom in all but the most retrograde legal systems.

Someone with the mental age of a child should be treated appropriately; there should be sentencing guidelines for this purpose.

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 07:57 AM

Congratulations to the EJI on getting some modest result, then.

What I find disturbing about the report is that the expression "sentenced to die in prison" is consistently used to describe a life sentence without parole. Personally, I find such use of loaded expressions makes it more difficult to judge an argument on its merits.

Nothing loaded about it - it accurately described what the US legal system was doing. Whereas using the language they prefer, to muddle the issues and duck responsibility, is loaded.

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: BobL
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 03:27 AM

Thank you, Nigel. Nice to know I have some use in this world other than being a warning to others.

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 05:23 AM

Well done Bob.
I hadn't spotted that. The copyright date at the bottom of the page is 2017. Clearly they just refresh regularly.
I see their link for donations still seems to be live though.

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: BobL
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 04:21 AM

What I find disturbing about the report is that the expression "sentenced to die in prison" is consistently used to describe a life sentence without parole. Personally, I find such use of loaded expressions makes it more difficult to judge an argument on its merits.

More to the point though, the report was published in January 2008 - nearly 10 years ago. I understand (thank you, Wiki) that in the USA, automatic life sentences without parole are no longer imposed on minors. So it would appear that the EJI's campaign was successful.

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Stu
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 04:07 AM

It's quite legal to marry a 12 year old in some states in the US and over 200,000 thousand have been in the last 15 years, mostly girls to older men. When your moral compass is that corrupted, I guess to a large part of society imprisoning children doesn't seem so appalling.

It's difficult to comprehend such depravity as part of a society, and perhaps that's why some US citizens see guns and executing mentally ill people as mere trivialities.

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 03:38 AM

Bot as bad but still GROSSLY UNJUST
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 03:23 AM

From: Thompson - PM
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 02:49 AM

The concept of "trying a child as an adult" is nonsense. A child is a child, not an adult.

Yes, but where to draw the line? Some adults have the 'mental age' of children, and some children are exceptionally precocious.
Legislators in different countries set the cut-off age differently (and the age of consent, and age at which one can marry/drink/drive).
Once set it must be the guidance which is used, unless the law is changed.
There must be some circumstances in which criminals (of any age) must take the consequences of their own actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 03:19 AM

its really odd. you meet so many nice Americans....and yet...thirty thousand gun deaths every year. a rabid president...

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Thompson
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 02:49 AM

The concept of "trying a child as an adult" is nonsense. A child is a child, not an adult.

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: meself
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 01:09 AM

Yeah, like those who are - what? 12 years old? 8 years old? 5 years old?

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Sep 17 - 08:14 PM

I tried checking online to see exactly what the age of criminal responsibility was in USA. thie page says:
United States of America

The minimum age of criminal liability is set at the federal and state level in the United States. At the state level, 33 states set no minimum age of criminal responsibility, theoretically allowing a child to be sentenced to criminal penalties at any age [Cipriani,D. Children's Rights and the Minimum Age of Criminal Responsibility: A Global Perspective, Ashgate 2009, p. 221 and 222], though in most of these states a capacity related test is applied.


So, basically, in US, if you can commit a crime, you risk being punished for it. As long as the children are aware of this, it seems reasonable. Of course, there will be those who do not understand the possible consequence of their actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Sep 17 - 03:45 PM

Most of the sentences imposed on these children were mandatory: the court could not give any consideration to the child's age or life history. Some of the children were charged with crimes that do not involve homicide or even injury; many were convicted for offenses where older teenagers or adults were involved and primarily responsible for the crime; nearly two-thirds are children of color.

This behavior is an embarrassment to many in the US, something that has needed to be resolved for years. It's part of the Reagan legacy, when legislators started pushing for stiffer mandatory sentences, giving judges no discretion.

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 17 - 03:13 PM

There are a couple of 'advanced' nations that also do this. Do you care to know who?

Jack there are times on BS when people are under a lot of stress so that topics that require more thought than gum chewing or puppies do not have much participation. I'm curious to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Sep 17 - 02:42 PM

Thank you for posting this.

Subject: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Sep 17 - 01:40 PM

I had no idea the US criminal justice system was THIS barbaric.

https://eji.org/reports/cruel-and-unusual