BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 08:54 AM

The most knowledgeable and eloquent contributors tp BS did not just walk way.

THEY DIED !

---

Closed, because although nobody seems to want to discuss the subject, some are trying to provoke fighting on other subjects. -Mod

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 08:51 AM

There is plenty of acrimony and irony here seeing that the topic is free speech.

Some are simply saying "go ahead and shoot, you're too chicken shit."
At least I don't try to sound like Donald Trump.

Who better to post than a mod? They are most likely to have read the thread in its entirety.

All I know is I am not one.

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Stu
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 08:39 AM

There goes another one.

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 08:33 AM

Jim - normal people are sick to the back teeth of you bunch of childish twats. That's why so many have fucked off. The only people who don't seem to 'get it' are the aforementioned bunch of childish twats.

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 08:30 AM

"People walk away. They don't get "driven away"....

I'll just leave this here - from Senoufou, 03 Aug 17...

"For some time I have felt this section of Mudcat has become unbearable. The tone of many of the posts by a certain number of contributors is beyond enduring, and it is no longer a pleasure (as it certainly used to be) to engage in any meaningful discussion before the nasty point-scoring begins."

And if people 'walk away' (as they have, in droves), it's not hard to see why. Unless you're rendered blind and deaf by having your head so far up your own arse of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 08:24 AM

"I know we mere mortals aren't supposed to question Moderation Policy, "
I've just had three reanably polite postings on a controversial subject censored by the same Mods who seem happy to let personal slagging off go through on the nod
Be interesting to see if this one makes it over the wall
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 05:55 AM

"A site?" 😂

Not my ruling!

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 04:53 AM

SSDD, however, despite the ruling by Shaw was found on a site explaining Acronyms.

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 04:49 AM

People walk away. They don't get "driven away."

Acronym: NATO, AIDS, UNICEF

Initialism: USA, BDS, SSDD

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 04:49 AM

I would say applicable to quite a number Backwards, but mostly those who actually start threads.

Ten.....
Nine.....
Eight.....
Seven....

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 04:45 AM

You should know.

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 04:24 AM

SSDD = Same Shit Different Day

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Stu
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 04:16 AM

"Sorry if you took it like that Stu, I didn't intend it."

No worries, the hazards of text-only communication.


"I do think you "have something about you" or I wouldn't have bothered."

I feel there's a compliment in there somewhere!

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 04:02 AM

I never catch onto these Internet acronyms that everybody seems to know about. I Googled "SSDD," and found it means "single-sided, double-density."

I think that's how they used to distribute the Digital Tradition, back in the day.

I'll get me coat....

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 03:33 AM

"Anybody notice how many non-moderator Americans post in BS these days? I think it's maybe 2 or 3. You ever wonder about that? Maybe folks are more sensitive to SSDD crap, as in "Oh no - not AGAIN." I don't know. I just know they aren't here. 5 or 6 Brits, mostly, and volumes of SSDD."

Not just Americans, Jeri. A lot of Brits have gone AWOL too. Even Eliza (Senoufou) - one of the nicest, funniest, gentlest posters we've had here in recent times - has been driven away.

I know we mere mortals aren't supposed to question Moderation Policy, but the whole SSDD situation in the BS section is the result of a bass-ackwards Mod Policy. Every other forum I inhabit, the trouble-makers are censured and the decent folks are happy. Here, the OCD Cockwombles are allowed to dominate, so the decent folks bugger off.

That's me out.

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 17 - 11:27 PM

You're right Jeri. To the subject at hand, this neo safe space notion is perverse.

As for throwing up Trump posts willy nilly I admit he makes me want to puke uncontrollably sometimes. I should call up Chuck, and spew some bile there instead.
Thanks,
btw. my wife just tossed me cookies.

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Sep 17 - 08:50 PM

...and because I missed BB's question: no. Don't like violence if it can be avoided, and don't like antifa. I think they're making a huge mistake, and like you said, they've given up the high ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Sep 17 - 08:40 PM

Don. you're watching the same shows I am.

That said, the thread is about whether it's OK to beat up speakers who say things you don't agree with.

It's not about all of the other favorite fight subjects. Start another thread, because we can't possibly be tired of fighting about all of the usual hot-button issues.
Mainly because folks have learned their script and damned well want to keep using those lines.

Anybody notice how many non-moderator Americans post in BS these days? I think it's maybe 2 or 3. You ever wonder about that? Maybe folks are more sensitive to SSDD crap, as in "Oh no - not AGAIN." I don't know. I just know they aren't here. 5 or 6 Brits, mostly, and volumes of SSDD.
(Here's me, buggering off again, for now.)

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 17 - 08:29 PM

The coinciding slimey underbelly of politics and social psychopaths has always been with us. The ethnic cleansers in the world have thier 20% base but now have a standard bearer in Trump.

There are no exagerations great enough to encompass what Trump can and will do to punish the world, to punish the son of a bitch blacks Jews Catholics and disloyal Americans.

Unless the Secret Service has greatly improved protection since Obama, Trump may become a martyr. Or Mueller will prove treason or Donald will eat one too many cheeseburgers. I do not see him outliving me. Sometimes you get glorious schaudenfreude by watching the bastards die right in front of you.

Good people have grown a protective callous as a result of Trump and will provide a more progressive blowback than Obama, Biden or Clinton. But who?

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 17 - 07:02 PM

More than a tad condescending, but all true. Ake you will not become the paragon of conservative thought but you should at least be the best conservative you can be. Perhaps you could study the conservative thoughts of Wiliam F Buckley. With a foundnation you could compare how the Coulters of today have gone sensationalistic in a pit of commercialism that bears very little resemblance to conservative values.

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Sep 17 - 04:51 PM

Sorry if you took it like that Stu, I didn't intend it.

I do think you "have something about you" or I wouldn't have bothered.

Now as for Don.....There's condescension!

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Sep 17 - 03:12 PM

Amos,


"For Bruce's edification, the definition of a liberal is not "a whiny self-indulgent spittle-spined bleeding-heart wuss" or anything near it."

I have never said anything of the kind, as you well know. I DID say that a Liberal who hits me with a 2x4 because I am a conservative has lost the high ground over the KKK or Nazi who does the same because I am Jewish.

And the antifa have been hitting reporters, casual bystanders, and people WHO HAVE NOT ATTACKED THEM physically. If one is allowed to attack those who have a viewpoint one disagrees with with physical attacks, I know of few here on mudcat who would be safe.

Does the majority have the right to beat those they disagree with into submission? THAT is what a percentage ( looking like 10-20%) of the antifa have stated that they believe. The question is how many of those here who consider themselves "Liberal" agree with them?

Or do you mean that "1. Any person who advocates liberty of thought, speech or action."" means liberty of action means not having to obey the laws about assault?



ANY person should be judged BY THEIR OWN ACTIONS- and held responsible for those actions, regardless of whether they are liberal or conservative.

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Sep 17 - 02:30 PM


"Free Speech Week" at UC Berkeley Is Constitutionally Protected — and Morally Bankrupt

"Anyone who opposes Yiannopoulos, Coulter, and Bannon's presence on campus will undoubtedly be framed as opposing a week of "free speech.""

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Stu
Date: 25 Sep 17 - 02:12 PM

A tad condescending. I'm in my early fifties, was a Young Conservative at sixteen and met a socialist who came to speak to our group and I heard sense for the first time.

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 17 - 01:08 PM

Ake, I am not uncomfortable and frightened, as if my progressive myths are about to be exposed. I think most of us are aware what myths are, where they come from, who uses them and why.

To be a better writer and avoid spouting nonsense you have to first write what you know. Then later you can put yourself in the shoes of others. Know your point of observation and keep track of perspectives. Finally proofread and edit until you make sense.

Keep practicing, a bit over 11 years ago I could not write a coherent sentence. Serious thoughts require translation from the raw mental idea to a shared linguistic expression.

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Sep 17 - 12:38 PM

Nothing will work Stu until we stop believing in the tooth fairy.

I have seen it from both sides, the political battles of the last century, the advent of "liberalism" in the social system with the inevitable conservative backlash to stabilise an economic system which is no longer "fit for purpose".

There are huge changes coming and probably a socialist regime when we get back to a subsistence economy, but as I said earlier nobody who has lived the easy life of the past forty years would like it much.

I think the middle on this century will see a different world, if not humanity is indeed doomed.

I don't know how old you are Stu but you sound quite young, you could be me in my twenties, viewing politics like a football game with the nasties all on the other side......I'll let you into an old mans secret Stu the nasties are on every side and most of all in the middle. Try reading the posts here without the blinkers a whole new world opens up.

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Stu
Date: 25 Sep 17 - 11:59 AM

"but one certainty is that eternal division leads to eternal damnation"

Yeah, but who want's to be on the side of the nasties? Who wants to stand side by side with xenophobes, homophobes and people who see ignorance as a virtue?

Why should anyone want to do that? I'm sure the unprogressive right would all like to get together to force us to do what they see fit. Unfortunately for the alt-reich, that won't work.

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Sep 17 - 11:33 AM

I do not see Ann Coulter as a "purveyor of hate" she is an extremely popular writer who has had many best sellers, she has an excellent sense of irony and knows how to use it to make hard hitting points.

She certainly does not deserve to be deprived of freedom of speech by threats of violence from the left.

All the hatred I see here and on social media has been directed towards Miss Coulter, somebody once told me that Americans do not understand irony.....is that really the case?
I find it hard to believe that the obviously well educated people from the US who frequent this forum are truly unaware of the power of irony in debate or indeed in literature in general.

I think the truth is that clever, humorous people on the right of politics make "liberals" uncomfortable and frightened, as if their myths are about to be exposed. I think most of you are aware that they are myths?

Try thinking about things from another perspective, we have no idea how the future will pan out, but one certainty is that eternal division leads to eternal damnation.

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Stu
Date: 25 Sep 17 - 11:23 AM

Now Farage's mates the AfD have made inroads in Germany. They are a nasty bunch too, but then the nasties are well and truly on the march in these troubled times.

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Sep 17 - 10:16 AM

I found the video of the Shapiro speech that started it. I haven't watched the whole thing (and probably won't) but it got to the place where he went after the "alt right".

The violence baffles me. It's as if somebody on the left heard Trumps encouraging beating up dissenters and saw some of his peeps doing that, and said "Oh, I hate that. Let's do it to THEM." Just a case of becoming what they hate.

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 17 - 08:48 AM

The President has free speech to say Putin is a pal, The Nazis and KKK are good people, Mexicans are rapists, Americans are sons of Bitches BUT as President he should not say Korea will be totally destroyed.

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 17 - 08:35 AM

I just realized Trump is a Masteracebaiter.

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Sep 17 - 03:38 PM

"Liberty of thought speech or action"

Somebody must have forgot to tell Berkley about that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Amos
Date: 24 Sep 17 - 12:23 PM

By and large campuses as organizations have the right to choose whom they invite to speak, and about what. Wildly colored speech is distasteful to people trying to learn powers of discrimination and analysis. So are invitations to knee-jerk reactions against broad categories such as "liberals".

For Bruce's edification, the definition of a liberal is not "a whiny self-indulgent spittle-spined bleeding-heart wuss" or anything near it.

Webster's offers: "I adj.1. Possessing a free and generous heart. 2. Appropriate and/or fitting for a broad and enlightened mind. 3. Free from narrowness, bigotry, or bondage to authority or creed. II n. 1. Any person who advocates liberty of thought, speech or action."

I strongly suggest we all strive to find words that actually describe what we are trying to say, rather than indulging in knee-jerk label-mongering.

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Sep 17 - 11:34 AM

Free Speech in America is now laser focused on sports since Trump has tweeted that son of a bitch protesters (black football players) be FIRED or suspended if they kneel before the American flag during the national anthem.

The all white owners of NFL football teams, although Trump supporters, had to go against Trump or lose 80% of their team players support.

The 1st example of mass anti Trump kneeling happened in the UK today.

Stand, kneeling on one or both knees or lying down to the flag has nothing to do with spiting in the face of veterans, veteran families and those who died in war as FOX NEWS is reporting. It has to do with Black Lives Matter and Trump fomenting racism. FOX is most concerned how this will effect the financial foundation of the multi billion dollar NFL

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Sep 17 - 11:12 AM

Froggy, if you are going to quote me, please quote the whole of the contribution.

"I think most people would believe themselves to be committed to certain views and positive in outlook, but multiculturalism in the true sense of the word is extremely negative surely?
I would be much happier with complete integration of races and cultures."

Now doesn't that look better? :0)
I also suggest to look up the definition and history of "multiculturalism" in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 17 - 05:32 AM

Of course, I'd be happy to help with providing their food too - I'm sure I could come up with something!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 17 - 04:06 AM

"that would have required me to donate my urine to the U.S. government"
Did you have to send it direct to the White House?
I'd be happy to send mine to Westminster - hopefully for them to make their tea with
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Sep 17 - 03:08 AM

Over the years, The American Civil Liberties Union has been at the forefront of the movement to defend the Bill of Rights in the U.S. Constitution. Most of the time, the issues the ACLU has defended, have been of great interest to us on the Left. Occasionally, the ACLU has defended the rights of the Right, and it has won court decisions that are distasteful to many of us.

But on the whole, I think the ACLU has performed a great service to all Americans. Conservatives tend to condemn the ACLU, but it has won a good number of victories for the conservatives.

If you review legal history of the U.S. over the last century, you will find the imprint of the ACLU on almost every court decision that interprets the Bill of Rights.

Representing two friends of mine, the ACLU overturned a policy that would have required me to donate my urine to the U.S. government regularly over the rest of my career. I am a strong supporter of the ACLU, even when they defend Nazis.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 17 - 02:52 AM

All free speech needs to be tempered with responsibility - giving people the right to openly express their hatred and prejudices can be as repressive as censorship - more so in some cases
Who decides s the problem - I would have thought common sense and decency has to play a major part in the decision.
It doesn't take rocket science to work out that being allowed to openly express race, cultural or gender hatred can be dangerous to the point of being lethal
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Sep 17 - 02:09 AM

Steve Shaw says: When it comes to institutions cancelling speeches due to threats of violence, hate speech, etc., we shouldn't conflate the refusal to provide a platform with restriction of free speech.

Exactly. Many campuses have "free speech areas," and I think that's a good idea. Some don't allow amplification in such areas, and I think that's also a good idea. But providing indoor speaking space to purveyors of hate? Nope.

And make no mistake, Ann Coulter is a purveyor of hate.

Torches and burning crosses and open-carry weapons are threatening and frightening, and have no place on taxpayer-owned property. I don't think they should be considered to be "free speech."

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: frogprince
Date: 24 Sep 17 - 12:58 AM

"multiculturalism in the true sense of the word is extremely negative surely?"

Absolutely! There's nothing worse than a society where some of the people don't think, dress, and worship just like me.

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Sep 17 - 01:17 PM

Maybe you're just a lousy zealot? :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Sep 17 - 01:09 PM

errrmmm.. "zealousy".. is that even a word...??? any scrabble players here...????


I probably meant "zealotry"...

---

I deleted a LOT of posts prior to this one, because it seemed they were about different favorite subjects, and aimed at people's favorite opponents.
Please try to avoid changing the subject to facilitate personal attacks. --Mod

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Sep 17 - 12:56 PM

That's why I think you're alright PFR......or at least partly alright.:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Sep 17 - 12:40 PM

Ake - My view - at base level, a bonehead street thug is a bonehead street thug.. whatever their political or religious zealousy...

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Sep 17 - 12:34 PM

Yes PFR I thought that's what you meant, but I have always found that "committed" petty minded xenophobic racist bigots...are really pretty thin on the ground....most of it is ignorant wind and piss.

As far as "extreme right wing activists and agitators... " are concerned, my years in the CP taught me that violent extremists are not confined to the right wing, many of the people I came into contact with were absolute psychopaths.

In saying that, being an extremist is not always bad, they can often see through the media fog and the "liberal" game which has been in operation for the last three decades. Destruction of the social system in place of real political change.

Teribus I agree with what you have said regarding moderation, but Joe is between a rock and a hard place here and sometimes has the unfortunate habit of leading with his chin.
He sees people like you and I as "a problem", while the real problem is the "liberal" ideology and the mindless robots who follow it without question.
I have always found him a "good" person though I sometimes struggle to understand his real position on certain issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Sep 17 - 12:07 PM

Ake - Yeah it's not easy quickly finding words to sum up values, ideas, and assumptions.. words that are not too glib or contentious...

By 'committed multiculturalist' I'd presume it to be a commonly shared agreed term that we are not petty minded xenophobic racist bigots...

I am first and foremost a cynical pragmatist, so accept that 'multiculturalism' is not without problems...

Personally I would strive to co-exist with neighbours from diverse cultural backgrounds,
but still be willing to voice disagreement with some of their specific cultural ritualist practices...

A prime example being genital mutilation for both girls and boys...

Ideally, we try to seek the best in people, even those generally despised by a majority in a community...

But I'm only human, and can't help harbouring transgressive fantasies of vigilante justice for 'types' I'd prefer not to tolerate..

ie.. local drug dealers, bonehead street thugs, and extreme right wing activists and agitators...

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Sep 17 - 11:28 AM

Hi PFR....not a trick question, but can you explain briefly what a "committed positive multiculturalist" actually is?

I think most people would believe themselves to be committed to certain views and positive in outlook, but multiculturalism in the true sense of the word is extremely negative surely?
I would be much happier with complete integration of races and cultures.

Subject: RE: BS: Free speech- as long as you're Liberal.
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Sep 17 - 10:47 AM

"can the truth ever be "offensive""

My wife works for the local authority and often looks after
the educational needs of traveller families.
My wife is a committed positive multiculturalist. We both are.

Yesterday, after she viewed the latest episode of a Channel 5 series on traveller kids,
we had an idle conversation about negative traveller stereotypes and any basis there may be in reality.. and of what significance this may be...

This kind of debate cannot avoid ideas and statements that some would automatically seek offence in, if the talk was held in public.
But seeking objective 'truth' can not be truly possible if ideas are completely restricted and off limits,
just in case a few are determined to take offence in order to hijack, or derail the debate...??????