BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Oct 17 - 07:16 AM

Most people who contribute to this thread are more interested in content than post numbers Richard.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Oct 17 - 07:57 AM

I think the Catalonia/Madrid business has been a long time coming, and very specific to Spain.

Brexit has sod all to do with it, as do our own separatist movements.

Spain is a very different kettle of fish. There are layers of historical significance and cultural matters and subtleties that we can't pick up on. So its no good pontificating.

they will deal with it. we can't possibly help matters yelling out encouragement and ignorance.

Picking up on one of Ake's points. Who is to decide whether a degree is of use to the country? The thing I loved about the Open University was the Summer school, where I met old people who were studying out of sheer delight in learning. They had grown up in an era when University education wasn't available to working class folk.

we are all better off with a cultured educated population than a stupid ignorant one. it is the best hope we have for achieving a civilisation.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 17 - 10:25 AM

"Was there similar international condemnation of Scottish independence?
I do not remember any.
Why has our government defended Spanish unity when we believe in self determination for our own regions?"

Our government fought tooth and nail to persuade Scotland to remain in the UK. There is no difference in attitude between UK/Scotland and Spain/Catalonia. The difference in approach is that Scotland was allowed to have a legal referendum. Spain has said that the sacked Catalan politicians may stand for the regional elections in December. A poor showing by the separatists may, in Spain's eyes, be a way out of this. I have a feeling that the elections won't end the divisiveness.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Oct 17 - 11:49 AM

There is no difference in attitude between UK/Scotland and Spain/Catalonia.

Except that we allowed a referendum on independence and agreed to abide by the decision of the Scottish people, and Spain refused the Catalans all those things.
Otherwise no difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Oct 17 - 12:04 PM

Quite right Keith, I voted for Scottish Independence, we lost, I accept the democratic result and will not attempt to undermine the UK government over it.   That's also the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 29 Oct 17 - 01:53 PM

Whoooops!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5028507/Sacked-Catalan-leader-remain-president.html

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 17 - 05:17 PM

Which is exactly what I said, Keith. Try not to be tiresome.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Oct 17 - 05:53 PM

i think there are a lot of differences between Scottish and Catalonian independence struggles.

the most glaring of course is the Spanish civil war was 1936, Culloden was 1745. try to imagine if Culloden was 1945.


we've had two hundred years to appreciate the virtues of not doing each other in.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Oct 17 - 03:48 AM

I was agreeing with you Steve.
Both governments opposed independence, the only trivial difference being that the Spanish government imposed its will on the Catalans by force and denied them any opportunity to even express a view in a referendum, while our government granted the Scots the freedom to choose their own destiny.
Otherwise, as you said, no difference Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Oct 17 - 07:25 AM

Al...If an armed insurrection took place in Catalonia OR Scotland, I am perfectly sure that there would be plenty of people being done in, regardless of the Spanish Civil War or Culloden.

Rebellion would be put down ruthlessly.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 17 - 07:33 AM

Don't you just love those bloody big "ifs"?

Not quite as funny as Harry Enfield's and Paul Whitehouse's Self-Righteous Brothers, who invented ludicrous hypothetical situations in order to show how they could put the world to rights. At least their offerings had comedic content.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 30 Oct 17 - 07:41 AM

"There is no difference in attitude between UK/Scotland and Spain/Catalonia."

What on earth did you sprinkle on your cornflakes in order to scribe the above supposition?
Can you not recognise the difference between democracy and jackboots?
Or are you confusing fact with fantasy - AGAIN!

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 17 - 09:02 AM

Try reading the rest of my post. Perhaps you'd prefer sentences of no more than five words and words of one syllable. Here's one such for you. Get a life.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Oct 17 - 09:07 AM

From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 29 Oct 17 - 07:07 AM
What happened to the great Mudcat tradition of claiming the 100th post etc? 200!

Richard,
It seems in this day and age the number of posts being deleted is increasing. For that reason, what appears to be a one hundredth post today might only be the ninety-eighth tomorrow.

Counting coup is no longer what it was. Neither is nostalgia.

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 17 - 09:22 AM

Nostalgia certainly isn't what it used to be. Until 1920 the word meant only a sort of intense homesickness. Wistful yearning for the past is a newer application of the word. I suppose we have to live with that. That's democracy for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 07:04 AM

Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont is seeking refuge in an EU country (Belgium) from persecution and prosecution in another EU country (Spain.)

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 07:52 AM

Well, just think. In some countries not governed by the human rights standards and the rule of law insisted on by the EU, he might have been thrown into a dungeon or had his bonce cut off by now. Good old EU, say I.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 08:22 AM

"Good old EU"....is that the Persecuting or protecting EU? and which one is likely to rule the other?

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 09:07 AM

I'll let you decide.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 11:53 AM

countries not governed by the human rights standards and the rule of law insisted on by the EU, he might have been thrown into a dungeon

He is faces up to 30 years imprisonment for sedition in an EU member nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 05:52 PM

It will not happen. And you know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 11:39 AM

From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 11:53 AM
He is faces up to 30 years imprisonment for sedition in an EU member nation.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 01 Nov 17 - 05:52 PM
It will not happen. And you know it.

I hope that you're right. But if that is available on their statute books for sedition and treason, he has reason to be fearful.
After all, look how the Spanish police were willing to treat peaceful Catalan protesters.

News today From: The Guardian
Spain's state prosecutor has asked a judge to issue a European arrest warrant for the deposed Catalan president Carles Puigdemont and four of his former regional ministers after they failed to return from Belgium to testify in court.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 02:02 PM

It won't be the police deciding his fate.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 02:36 PM

Is this the EU version of oil on troubled waters or water on a chip pan fire?


http://www.euronews.com/2017/11/02/catalonias-secessionist-leaders-jailed-ahead-of-rebellion-trial

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 08:54 AM

"Well, just think. In some countries not governed by the human rights standards and the rule of law insisted on by the EU, he might have been thrown into a dungeon or had his bonce cut off by now. Good old EU, say I."

A fellow core EU member state has imprisoned without trial or bail a substantial portion of the government elected by its people to carry out its mandate, to hold a referendum on independence from Spain!

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/03/catalonia-spain-basque-breton-bavaria-europe

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 17 - 09:48 PM

They are not imprisoned without trial. They are being held on remand. I know you oppose everything about the EU but let's not get carried away. It's nothing like what happens, for example, in that mighty Middle-eastern democracy Israel, where, if you are an Arab, you can be held in jail for years without trial or even without knowing what you are supposed to have done. Even if you're a child or a woman.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 03:24 AM

I wonder why you pick Israel as an example. I think your party already has sufficient problems with antisemitism.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 05:35 AM

I picked it because it happens to be a good comparison. The egregious human rights abuses in that soi-disant democracy make the Spanish government (who I think have been incredibly clumsy and wrong-headed about this) look like fluffy bunnies, and my hypocrisy-detecting antennae are tuned to those idiots who want to turn the situation in Spain into an opportunist anti-EU rant. And I think you have a problem with antisemitism, to the extent that you don?t actually know what it is and what it isn?t.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 06:42 AM

And your reference to antisemitism there is mischievous, irrelevant and uncalled for. We should close off that particular avenue in this thread right now. I'd be more than happy to spar with you in a new thread should you start one if you really have a bee in your bonnet about anyone who dares to criticise the actions of the regime in Israel. I doubt that the mods would be happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 07:29 AM

Methinks the man doth protest too much!

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 07:39 AM

Not at all. You made an irrelevant, improper and mischievous comment. I'm always more than happy to call you out for things like that. Sorry if that embarrasses you.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: bobad
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 07:45 AM

So typical of the rat Shaw - he brings and condemns Israel into the conversation without providing any context to their policies then issues warning to anyone who challenges his motive by invoking his precious mods. Back into the sewer you crawled out of Shaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 09:17 AM

It was only matter of time. 😂 Have a nice day yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 10:26 AM

Bobad is quite correct Steve, it was you who introduced Israel into the discussion....you can hardly complain when the issue of "liberal" anti-Semitism is thrown back at you.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 10:54 AM

Shaw you made a statement by selecting Israel as a comparison. It was an extremely poor choice made with excruciatingly poor taste. Furthermore you know dammed well that had it been anyone else to raise the comparison you would have been all over them like a particularly nasty, antisocial rash. And don't try to deny it. It is your behaviour thru and thru.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 11:08 AM

Don't pile stupidity on stupidity, please. I made an extremely simple, ON-TOPIC point about the crtiticism of alleged human rights transgressions in Spain being falsely linked to the EU by brexiteers. Those self-same people are either silent on or defensive of the far greater human rights abuses perpetrated against Palestinian civilians in the occupied territories by a regime that is also supposed to be a democracy. That reeks of hypocrisy to me. The point is to do with the treatment of Catalonia, specifically of its politicians, by Madrid. Nothing else. Some clown gratuitously and opportunistically brought up the "antisemitism problem" in the UK Labour Party which has diddly-squat to do with Catalonia. Some other clown chimed in, very boringly predictably with a tirade of insults, and now a third clown, you, is blaming ME for the off-topic sniping. As far as I'm concerned this thread is about Catalonia. If you want to flog the antisemitism dead horse all over again, start a thread and see if you can get any takers. Better still, go and find a leaky roof to fix.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 11:21 AM

"Shaw you made a statement by selecting Israel as a comparison. It was an extremely poor choice made with excruciatingly poor taste. Furthermore you know dammed well that had it been anyone else to raise the comparison you would have been all over them like a particularly nasty, antisocial rash. And don't try to deny it. It is your behaviour thru and thru."

Au contraire. I would have agreed wholeheartedly with them.

The comparison is a valid one. If anything, Madrid is constrained by the requirements of the EU apropos of the rule of law and human rights requirements of membership. The politicians are on remand, not pitched into a stinking cell for six, twelve or more months without charge in their hundreds (go on, look it up). I actually think that Spain values its democracy in any case and doesn't need those constraints. Whatever, this is not a matter in which the EU is a major active player and to suggest that Spain's membership is exacerbating the Catalonia issue is without foundation and is downright mischievous. I don't agree with what Spain is doing, but one thing's for sure: due process according to Spanish rule of law will take place, charges will be brought (or not) and an independent judiciary will have the final say. If only all self-styled democracies could say the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: bobad
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 11:38 AM

the antisemitism dead horse all over again

"Shocking dossier unveiled by Jewish Labour members reveals scale of anti-semitism claims inside the party amid drive to stamp out online abuse from activists"

By Daniel Martin for the Daily Mail

Published: 01:54 GMT, 4 November 2017 | Updated: 02:59 GMT, 4 November 2017

Not dead by any means, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 11:57 AM

Start another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 07:24 PM

. . . I actually think that Spain values its democracy in any case and doesn't need those
The comparison is a valid one. If anything, Madrid is constrained by constraints

Spain may "value its democracy", but it doesn't value the democracy of others, with its continued claims on Gibraltar. A vote in 2002 made it clear that Gibraltarians wanted to maintain the status quo Here, on Wiki)

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 08:15 PM

Well I suppose we didn't value the right of Argentina to claim the Malvinas or the right of Ireland to govern itself or the rights of the displaced Palestinians once the Jews were sorted, despite Balfour's promise. And how are you on Russia and Crimea, Nigel? Putin right or wrong? Should we ask the people of Crimea? Yiu won't get the answer you want. Isn't life complicated?

Have a look at a map, Nigel. Gibraltar is a few miles from mainland Spain and over a thousand miles from London. The Malvinas are an hour from mainland Argentina but ten hours from the UK, and, when we usurped them, there were no aeroplanes. Hong Kong is half an hour from China but twelve hours from us, but the capitalists there are still moaning. Our overseas Empire territorial acquisitions were hardly obtained by democratic means in any case, were they, Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 04:35 AM

We were discussing Spain & democracy, not geography.
The closeness of Gibraltar to Spain is hardly a valid argument that Spain can use while they retain their enclaves in Morocco.
As I pointed out, the Gibraltarians wish to keep things as they are, as do the Falkland islanders.
If you must bring in Ireland, it appears to be a fairly widely accepted state of affairs at present. But you fail to make clear whether you are talking about the Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland, or the complete island of Ireland.

Our overseas territories may not have been obtained by diplomacy, but they are retained by such. If the Falkland islanders had voted to become part of Argentina I am sure that wish would have been accepted by the UK.
Argentina has no historic claim to the Falklands. (apart from a few days under their control in 1982)

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 04:52 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 05 Nov 17 - 08:15 PM
Have a look at a map, Nigel. Gibraltar is a few miles from mainland Spain

Talking crap again!
Have a look at a map yourself. Gibraltar is not "a few miles from mainland Spain". They share a land border.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 05:19 AM

Quite so. Kind of makes it even worse in a way...I wonder whether you'd feel the same if Gib was a lump of land a few miles from Madrid. Or imagine how you'd feel if Spain owned a square mile or three just south of Solihull...


Of course the people of Gib would prefer to stay in the UK. They're Brits, 93% of 'em. Of course the people of the Falklands would prefer to stay in the UK. They're Brits too. Kind of an accidental case of gerrymandering... and just think of the faux-outrage when Russia walked into Crimea, in spite of the fact that the people there overwhelmingly see themselves as Russian. What's sauce for the goose, etc....

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 06:30 AM

And the Spanish enclaves in Morocco? As you say, "what's sauce for the goose . . ."

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: bobad
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 08:51 AM

the displaced Palestinians once the Jews were sorted

We all know why some Arabs were displaced and it wasn't the Jews who displaced them - they have their neighbouring Arab brothers to thank for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 09:10 AM

The people of Catatonia seem unmoved.
I'll get me coat.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 10:34 AM

By now, Nigel, it should be clear to you that I disapprove of anyone having an eclave or adjunct inside, stuck on or floating right next to someone else's country. It isn't right and it will only cause bother. My aversion may have originated when as a little lad I saw a map that had a lump of Flintshire not actually in Flintshire but wedged between Cheshire and Shropshire and nowhere near the rest of Flintshire. Never did get my head round that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 17 - 05:59 PM

Enclave, that would be.

Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 03:20 PM

Oh Dear!!!!!!



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5203615/Catalan-pro-independence-parties-likely-win-election.html


and for those that cannot accept anything in the wail. Hows about this.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2017/dec/21/catalonia-voters-results-regional-election-spain-live