BS: U.S. Immigration Raids

Subject: BS: U.S. Immigration Raids
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 02:34 AM

I went to training this evening for the Northern California Rapid Response Network, people who are trained to show up at immigration raids as witnesses. The observers are not supposed to interfere in any way, just observe and photograph and record.

Tonight's class was titled "Know Your Rights." It was presented by a representative of the American Civil Liberties Union, explaining how people should respond to adverse actions from police authorities, particularly ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement). The presentation was fascinating.

When confronted by law enforcement authorities in the U.S., everyone has the right to say these three things:

1. Am I free to go? If so, walk away with confidence, not running. If not, ask, "May I ask why I am being stopped?"
2. I would like to remain silent until I have an attorney to represent me.
3. I do not consent to being searched (or to having my home searched)

If law enforcement authorities do not honor these three requests, they are in violation of the U.S. Constitution, which puts them in a difficult situation. The purpose of Rapid Response observers is to ensure that these three rights are not violated. People who are stopped by law enforcement should be polite and cooperative, or else they can give authorities reason to escalate the situation.

Law enforcement authorities are not allowed to search a person or a house or a vehicle without consent or without a warrant signed by a judge. It is a bad idea to give consent, because authorities may find or "plant" contraband the owner was not aware of.

Does anyone here have experience with U.S. immigration authorities and how they operate? Apparently, the ICE raids have not been as intense as had been feared. Right now, about one person a day is being apprehended by immigration authorities in Northern California. But we're getting ready.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Immigration Raids
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 03:49 AM

I think we have similar laws in the UK, Joe. I would be much more confident if it ever happened to me here though. Surely in the US, as many recent cases have shown, you risk death if you do not comply :-(

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Immigration Raids
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 05:10 AM

I don't think it's quite so bad, Dave. Federal immigration officers are well-trained. The problem you perceive, lies with local police and black males.

But I wonder whether federal officers will be affected by the extreme thinking of the Trump administration. So far, I haven't seen that; but I wonder if federal officers can maintain integrity through these troubled times. Even during the Obama administration, ICE was ramping up and increasing deportations.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Immigration Raids
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 05:43 AM

The loophole for the police is called probable cause.
Now even that protection is weakened. search seizure

Don't get me started on National Security loopholes.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Immigration Raids
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 05:56 AM

I am no lawyer but having seen a few "Cops with Cameras" documentaries and from other sources:

I would say that Joe's three things apply much the same in Brittain.

I know that you cannot search a property without a warrant. And doing so would screw up any court case, unless there was good evidence that permission had been given by the occupant (like a video!). I guess searching a person is different, for the safety of the police.

Much like a bailiff needs the consent of the occupant - though once given can force entry multiple times. Or must seek a warrant.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Immigration Raids
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 06:38 AM

When in your car do not consent to a search. However in the real world if you insist on your constitutional rights in your car you are in effect challenging the police to abuse you. The police are not there to protect your rights. Only a judge can do that.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Immigration Raids
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 07:01 AM

Ah - OK. Thanks for the clarification, Joe.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Immigration Raids
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 09:22 AM

If law enforcement authorities do not honor these three requests, they are in violation of the U.S. Constitution,

Doesn't seem to bother 'em much, Joe, does it? Especially if you're a person of color (not just Black) or a Muslim.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Immigration Raids
From: Thompson
Date: 02 Nov 17 - 09:48 AM

The European equivalent normally prints up a credit-card-sized card which contains this type of information:

==

You have the right to speak to a lawyer during your detention, and to have one present during any interview. We recommend:
(name of recommended law company): (phone number of lawyer)
You also have the right to have someone informed of your arrest.
If you have been arrested, or witnessed an arrest and need support contact:
(legal observer group's name, email and phone number)

==

This can normally be given to people during an arrest. The lawyer or law firm, of course, is one that specialises in this, and is ready to be phoned.

In the case of people worried about being arrested, it's an idea to sew the name and number of such a lawyer inside their clothing.

One of the main purposes of such observers is to keep things relaxed and friendly - people can be terrified about what's going to happen to them, or their kids if they're in school or creche, etc; this kind of terror can be infectious and can make officials behave as they shouldn't.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Immigration Raids
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 02:09 AM

Well, Greg, they tend to be a little more careful about following the rules when there are people making videos - that's the purpose we're supposed to serve.

I've worked with law enforcement officers a lot, in my 25+ years as a federal investigator, and in the last 6 years that I've spent monitoring our county jail. I think most police officers want to do a good job. Sometimes they make mistakes, and sometimes they break under stress.

But there are some cops for whom machismo is very important, and they can easily develop abusive attitudes - especially when a macho attitude is dominant in an entire department. And there are some police departments that are just plain corrupt. Years ago, there was a Drug Enforcement Administration office just across the hall from me, and I got to know them quite well. There were certain police departments they would not share information with, because those departments were not to be trusted.

After 9-11, the George W. Bush Administration totally reorganized the immigration agencies, and all of federal law enforcement. I did security clearances for most federal law enforcement agencies until I retired in 1999, and I thouught I had a good understanding of federal law enforcement. Most federal cops are still part of the Department of Justice, and I think that is a good thing because of ties between the Attorney General and the courts - I think it makes federal officers more aware of their obligation to obey the law, not only to enforce it.

But Immigration and Border Patrol was moved from Justice, and Customs was moved from Treasury to become part of the new Department of Homeland Security. There seems to have been a hefty dose of xenophobia behind the establishment of this "Homeland Security" department, and that worries me.

But even back when Immigration (INS) was part of Justice, the Border Patrol and the Immigration and Naturalization Service had some of the poorest employee morale I have seen in any government agency. They were always overstaffed, overwhelmed, and underpaid. Upper managers got great pay, but mid-level law enforcement supervisors rarely made it above GS-11.

Border Patrol Agents and many INS employees were required to have a level of proficiency in speaking Spanish, so many of them were hispanic or were married to hispanics. The Border Patrol still exists, but only to patrol the border. The post-9-11 reorganization established a new agency with the ominous name of ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement), which now does immigration raids all over the interior of the United States. The Border Patrol used to do the interior raids, and the Border Patrol offices in the interior of the U.S. seemed to have a more relaxed atmosphere. I used to scrounge office space at the Bakersfield office of the Border Patrol, and they were nice, hospitable people.

But our Rapid Response training and other factors have given me a more ominous view of ICE. In the training, we were told that the ICE agents were most likely to speak only English, while the interior Border Patrol agents I knew would have spoken Spanish (and were often Hispanic themselves). And the ICE agents seem to use tactics like stakeouts that the Border Patrol agents of my day would have considered unfair. A favorite ICE tactic is to watch an alien's home until the person leaves on foot, and then pick the person up a block or two away from the safety of an unsearchable house or vehicle.

I used to think I knew the immigration enforcement system well, but all these changes have thrown me off. I'd like to know more about the new system, and especially ICE.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Immigration Raids
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 03:45 AM

And there's apparently something that immigrants can say or sign that forfeits all rights And subjects the person to deportation without a hearing. I wish I knew exactly what that thing was. Apparently, it is something that is very likely to cause confusion.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Immigration Raids
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 11:12 AM

Well, Greg, they tend to be a little more careful about following the rules when there are people making videos - that's the purpose we're supposed to serve.

Yeah, a little, perhaps.

Don't get the idea that I don't fully support what you're doing. Go get 'em and thanks for your service.

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Immigration Raids
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 11:17 AM

From: Joe Offer - PM
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 03:45 AM
And there's apparently something that immigrants can say or sign that forfeits all rights And subjects the person to deportation without a hearing. I wish I knew exactly what that thing was. Apparently, it is something that is very likely to cause confusion

Not related to This is it?

Subject: RE: BS: U.S. Immigration Raids
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Nov 17 - 12:13 PM

Thanks, Nigel. I think that's it. The ACLU guy said immigrants should not sign anything they did not fully understand.
Joe