BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table

Subject: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: lefthanded guitar
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 07:33 PM

I recently, through very little effort or ambition on my own part, came into the possession
of a frozen turkey.( Must be at least 20 lbs as I almost threw my back out getting it from car to kitchen. ) So here I am with my frozen turkey. Just in time for the holidays. Which made me realize how very fortunate I 've been for many years; having been invited as a guest on the holidays for so long, I ve forgotten how to cook one. That is, I m not sure how to make the transition from frozen mass of meat in the freezer to getting it properly and safely into a hot oven.
Cooking, as I remember , was not the really tough part of the job;
- just throw it in the pan with some onions and maybe some garlic and
let it go for about four hours. It s that tricky dance from miniature iceberg to heated succulent dinner that I m not sure of. Cook on a low light ? Defrost in fridge? In the sink? And stuffing??In the bird?? Around the bird??? Tho truth be told, a packaged mix
by Stovetop is beginning to seem quite appealing.

Well I could take the easy way out and trust the 3 or 4 thousand cooking sites
that come up in Google- but I ve had so much good luck on mudcat with
my previous culinary themed questions - I thought I d throw it out to you
folks again, and see what you all say. Advice, recommendations, and turkey themed
folklore are all welcome!

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 08:26 PM

That's a very big bird for a typical domestic oven!

The first thing is to get it thawed and up to room temp. That will take 24 or 36 hours out of your freezer. Don't keep it refrigerated whilst thawing, or your cooking time will be all screwed up.

The second thing is to not stuff it. Make your stuffing in separate loaf tins or something. If you stuff the cavity, the stuffing won't cook properly. If you stuff the neck end, about two or three pounds of the meat at that end won't cook properly and will be as tough as old boots.

Smother the breast with streaky bacon (or slather the breast with melted butter and seasoning) and put a big knob of butter and a lemon cut in half in the cavity. Season. If you don't use bacon, cover the breast with foil.

I reckon your bird will need about three and a half hours at 160 degrees, aybe half an hour longer. Whack it in the oven and just leave it. If a lot of watery liquid comes out, scoop most of it out every now and then.

If you've put foil on top, take it off for the last half hour or so. If it's looking pale, whack the heat up to 200.

Right at the end, take the turkey out and rest it for not less than half an hour. You could be getting on with your roast spuds and sprouts.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 11:48 PM

I recommend going to a cookery site and looking it up. The above instructions do not sound like enough cooking at a high enough temp for such a large turkey.

My method was to stuff the turkey front and back, truss it up and put it in a bag. In the old days the 'bag' was by making parchment paper out of supermarket brown bags, but now that brown bags are hard to find and the making of parchment paper takes time and lots of butter, I would go to the roasting bags you can buy in the supermarket. They are made out of some magic hi-temp plastic. I've used 'em with no problem.

It is simple, results in a self-browning thoroughly cooked and juicy stuffed turkey, but it does not in my experience result in much spare fluid for lots of gravy. What I did was to chop up and boil the giblets with veggies such as celery and onions, strain 'em and make gravy from the stock. You then season to taste and thicken with either flour or cornstarch.

Again, you should look it up, but my memory calls for an oven temperature of 350 deg F and a cooking time of 15 minutes to the pound for a turkey in the 20 lb size.

These days the television cooks have a separate meat thermometer and they test the bird for doneness according to its internal temperature. Again, look it up.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 12:35 AM

I'm not a cook so can't give personal experience on cooking poultry, but here in Australia we're told never to defrost poultry on the bench due to the risk of salmonella.

So I went looking for US recommendations - How to Safely Thaw a Turkey & UK regulations - Let's Talk Turkey: your guide to Christmas food safety

My usual evening meal is soupy-stew - throw lotsa vegs in a saucepan, boil & add seasonings/flavourings, add something proteiny, pour into a bowl & eat with a spoon. I gave up using my oven decades ago cos it is too hard to kneel down & to clean it, so bought an electric frypan & used that until a few years ago when I invented soupy-stew.

The friend I'm spending Christmas with is planning to roast a couple of turkey pieces, I hope the day won't be too hot for roasting.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 01:22 AM

Kind of off-topic, but ever since reading Dickens, I've wondered how Christmas Goose compares to Turkey, as a dish, that is.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 01:50 AM

The experts say to thaw it in the refrigerator. They've obviously never seen my refrigerator. It's crowded in normal times, more so around holidays. So, I just toss the turkey in a picnic cooler. Three days in a cooler with no ice, and a ten pounder's completely thawed, but still cool. If it's thawed before you're ready to cook, just toss a bag of ice on it.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 03:47 AM

.....how Christmas goose compares to turkey ....

We bought a goose instead of turkey a few years back. It cost twice as much and only gave half as much meat - an expensive Christmas dinner. It was nice as an alternative, but no better or worse. Anyway, my wife likes turkey so that is what we have.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 04:20 AM

I agree with robomatic that three and a half hours is not enough for that size of bird. A 20lb turkey would need a minimum of 5 hours at 160 deg C (fan assisted) or 180 deg C (conventional). The rule of thumb is 15 minutes per pound and 15 minutes over.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 04:21 AM

"How to get a frozen turkey to the table"
Offer it a glass of mulled wine and an armchair by the fire
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 04:31 AM

You want the bird at room temperature before it goes in the oven. Think about it. At the start of cooking the deepest part of it will be around 15 degrees. If it's out of the fridge it'll be ten degrees colder. That means you'll have to cook it for much longer. The biggest hazard is the breast drying out and going tough. Three hours at 160 degrees is spot on for a 5 kilo bird. You will need at least half an hour, if not an hour more, for your monster. Another salient point when it comes to baking cakes and roasting meat is to know how accurate your oven is. Get an oven thermometer and check it. Next year, buy two smaller birds instead of a monster. Cooking times are much easier to nail and your oven handles things better.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 04:46 AM

In a wheelbarrow?

DtG

(Who is having a turkey crown on the big day)

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Thompson
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 04:56 AM

Definitely defrost it - in a cool room, not in the fridge and certainly not humming in central heating.

You might try brining it - boil up a load of water with lots of herbs and things like mushed-up juniper berries and peppercorns, plus some salt (kosher salt is best), then let the mixture cool and plonk the defrosted turkey in for five or six hours, then take it out, feck out the water, pat the bird dry and air-dry it in a fridge for another hour or so. Then cook it as normal. Makes it taste much tastier and moister.

+1 for using a meat thermometer - you can get accurate ones that sit in the bird in the oven and trail their cord outside to the end that reads the temperature.

If you want nice recipes for this, search the BBC.co.uk website.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 06:22 AM

I never time hunks of meat accurately "minutes to the pound then some over" style. The scientist in me regards that approach as nonsensical, at least for larger lumps like big turkeys. I have never used a meat thermometer and wouldn't have a use for one. If the turkey's properly done it'll have a firm but yielding texture, look great and there'll be no pink liquid coming out if you stick the point of a knife into the thick bit of the thigh where it joins the body. Fear of salmonella, etc., will have you overcooking it. The best way to avoid getting germs everywhere is to never wash or soak your raw turkey in any liquid. You're just asking for trouble. We stopped having unevenly-cooked turkeys when we stopped putting stuffing into them. You'll get second-rate stuffing and at least some meat at the neck end that even the cat wouldn't eat.

I have two turkeys ordered, Morrison's finest free-range bronze, that should weigh in at 12 or 13 pounds each. The second one gets cooked on the 27th when we have a second influx of rellies. Any bigger than that and your oven may not cope very well. Just putting a monster into the oven cools the oven down and the fan can't circulate air the way it's supposed to. Then later on you're trying to cram in the spuds, stuffing, chipolatas, etc. Nightmare! My turkeys will each have half a pound of streaky on top which we remove and devour with the Prosecco after two hours, and a lemon, knob of butter and an onion in the cavity. Total cooking time will be three hours at 160C. Never fails!

Eating meat is supposed to be a pleasure. The key is to cook it right, not make killing off salmonella your top priority, unless you've run out of leather for your soles.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 06:28 AM

Put the butter to baste the bird UNDER the skin, fatty bacon over the TOP of the skin.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 07:04 AM

Good one, Raggytash. I forgot to mention that I always do that. Go easy : don't want to tear the skin.

I never bother turning the turkey over as is often recommended. It makes the breast go soggy. Nothing worse than saggy breasts...

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 07:25 AM

I never time hunks of meat accurately "minutes to the pound then some over" style.I never time hunks of meat accurately "minutes to the pound then some over" style.

It is only a guide but it does help to avoid that awkward gap between the first and second course where your guests twiddle their thumbs waiting for the 9kg bird to cook when you only allowed time for a 5kg one.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 07:27 AM

I think there must be an echo in here!

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 07:43 AM

That's not a problem, Doug. By the time you've planned to have it ready, no-one has any appetite left anyway, what with filling up with the crispy bacon, a quarter of sugared almonds and those nice long chewy ones out of the Quality Street tin. Besides, the house will be hot and clammy with steam and cooking smells and you won't be able to sit where you always sit, none of it conducive to wanting a plateful of food which includes overcooked sprouts, bread sauce that would be better referred to as wallpaper paste and that nasty sweet-sour red stuff that ruins the taste of everything else on the plate. Just give everybody a few more slugs of Prosecco and a couple more hours...

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 07:52 AM

The turkey should be out of the main oven and resting for at least 30 minutes before your slice it Doug. Plenty of time to scoff the Smoked Salmon and Prawn starter.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 08:08 AM

An hour's even better I reckon. Keep it warmish. Might be best to cover the breast during resting even though it will resoggify the skin somewhat.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 08:21 AM

The Post food section had something on frozen turkey straight into the oven - bake for less than twice the usual time. I will see if I can find it.
Picking all the crispy skin off yourself while the bird is "resting" is my solution to not covering it.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 08:22 AM

Que voici! Blicky to washpo story.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 08:47 AM

This recipe is perfect (I don't fool with stuffing, I use the part about brining and the baking instructions.)

NEVER just leave a bird out to thaw. Take the time to defrost it for several days in the fridge, or put it covered in a sink full of cold water for a day, then finish thawing in the fridge.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 08:51 AM

Sounds like a sure fire way to guarantee a trip to A & E with food poisoning to me.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 08:54 AM

That's cooking from frozen Acme, not your comments on defrosting thoroughly.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 09:44 AM

Think ahead then you won't have to do very dodgy things such as defrost it in a sinkful of water. As for thawing it in water THEN putting it in the fridge....A&E, here we come!

If you've got a fridge big enough to defrost the thing, great (though why bother...), but get it to room temp before it goes in the oven.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Charmion
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 10:12 AM

The way a bird that size is done in Ontario, guys, is to set the oven at 350 Fahrenheit and put it in breast-side-up with an oil-soaked dishcloth draped over it. Yes, 15 minutes per pound and another 15 at 400 degrees for browning is the way to go. Be sure to rest the turkey for about 20 minutes before carving; while it sits and thinks about itself, you make the gravy.

I belong to the no-stuffing faction, preferring the knob of butter and some onions approach with a bird that size. Stuffing is for turkeys in the 10- to 15-pound range.

To thaw, I agree with BWL's picnic cooler technique, and Steve Shaw is right about getting it to room temperature before crossing the start line; take it out of the cooler when you get up in the morning and let it sit in the kitchen until Zero Hour. With respect to salmonella, remember that this creature will spend upwards of five hours in a moderately hot oven. If it's fully cooked (no red in the juices when you stab the thigh), any unfriendly microbes will be well and truly dead. Just don't put the cooked turkey on any surface that has had any contact with the bird when it was raw.

Be prepared to baste your turkey thoroughly about every 45 minutes or so, although that could add to the cooking time, depending on how fast your oven reheats and how quickly you work. I recommend a long-handled ladle or spoon; those syringe things look neat but they usually quit on you when it matters most.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 10:15 AM

Knob of butter !!??!!??

I'm talking of 5 - 6 Ounces of butter ......... at least.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 10:16 AM

The turkey needs to be thoroughly defrosted for 36hours in a cool room If not stuffed it needs to be cooked at a temp. of 180C for 4 to 4.5 hours. The juices need to run clear as additional confirmation the bird is cooked thoroughly. Depending on how moist you like it additional steps need to be taken to add butter and cover for a period with foil.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 10:22 AM

Make that 160.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 10:33 AM

Sorry. looked at a dozen recipes. 180C it is. 160 is fine if you like raw turkey and a risk of salmonella. Another blond moment shaw?

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 10:39 AM

Ignore the troll.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 10:42 AM

"Ignore the troll." TWERP!




http://www.safefood.eu/christmas/media/Cooking_Christmas_Turkey_09.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 11:02 AM

When I was in college many years ago, my German professor was just recently back from a year as an exchange professor. He regaled us with the story of his Christmas there.
   He went to a local butcher shop and asked if they could get him a turkey (not a common item then, I gather). The butcher said yes, but it would be frozen, not fresh. Dr. Kress said that would be fine. The day before, he went to the shop to pick it up, planning to leave it out all night to defrost.
It was a nice turkey... but.... the way it arrived was startling. The supplier had removed the head.... and frozen it... entrails, feathers and all! It took 2 days to defrost, scald, pluck and clean...
Dinner was good, but two days late.
   You have to ask the right questions.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 03:11 PM

Stop looking at recipes. Every recipe is a bee in someone's bonnet. Anyone looking up a dozen "recipes" for cooking a turkey will get a dozen different ways of doing it. I've cooked dozens of turkeys down the years and I've found that every recipe that tells you to stuff turkeys is wrong, every recipe that tells you to turn it over halfway through is wrong and that they'll all give you different temperatures and timings and mucking about turning the heat down or up. For every turkey that's ever given anyone salmonella there have been a thousand turkeys cooked until they're as dry an old bone because the cook's been scared of salmonella. It's not like a shoulder of lamb or pork. There isn't enough fat in a turkey to forgive overcooking, simple as that. There are only four rules:

Your main battle is to stop the breast drying out. Cover it with bacon and stuff butter under the skin.

Don't overcook it. It's done when there's no pink juice when you pierce the thigh.

Don't cook it too hot. You'll murder the breast meat before the rest is cooked.

Let it sit for half an hour or more before taking the knife to it.

That's all there is to it. Medium to big bird, three hours ballpark. Monster bird, four hours should be plenty. You can't really mistime the meal because the spuds and veg don't need to go on at all until you're sure the bird is done and out of the oven. Even a hour and a half resting won't do much harm. Not even the stuffing needs to go in before that. If it's running late, just open another bag of popchips and another bottle of Prosecco.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 03:12 PM

One more thing. Why is anyone in their right mind buying something they think has salmonella in it!

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 03:26 PM

Some people just can't get beyond finding things that back up their arguments rather than basing their arguments on research in the first place, Steve.

Some people will argue about anything and everything. They are a bit like the Basil Fawlty character. Usually angry, often in the wrong and always something to both pity and laugh at.

Some are, of course, just arseholes who do not have an original thought in their bodies.

Best to steer clear of them.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 04:17 PM

I would be proud to join the company
of mudrat 1&2 as mudrat 3

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 04:54 PM

I'm passing on my own hands-on experiences, that's all. I've been in charge of the bloody Christmas turkey since my teens. I've made a lot of mistakes. It's the hardest soddin' roast of all to get right. But for a good number of years me turkeys have been good and it can't all be down to Morrisons. Suck it and see.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 05:06 PM

Try a Goose Steve, you'll never put up with Turkey again ... ever.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 05:11 PM

and freeze the grease

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 05:20 PM

"Try a Goose Steve"

I did, but Mrs Steve didn't half give me a slap...

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 06:00 PM

Anyone else ever tried Thompson's Turkey?
If not, brace yourselves

I first did it in 1960, and on a number of occasions since. A friend I introduced to it back about 1966 now does it every year. It does require work... and usually, help... but it is worth it, in my not-so-humble opinion.
Everyone messes with the details a little... mine is to use half as many water chestnuts and twice the ingredients of the coating.
It comes out of the oven black... or very dark brown... but the coating seals in the juices, and people fight over the skin.

I even own a copy of the book it first appeared in..by Morton Thompson.

No, I don't expect many to change their already time-tested routines and flavor combinations... but as a quick Googling will show, it has become famous in some circles....just reading the recipe is an experience.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 06:45 PM

I'm with Raggytash in that almost anything's better than a turkey, but we're stuck with the tradition, along with millions of other Brit households...

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: michaelr
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 06:56 PM

I like crispy skin, and you don't get that when you cover it in bacon.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 07:23 PM

You take the bacon off for the last stint, Michael. That allows the skin to crisp up and allows you to completely ruin your appetite by scoffing a load of crispy bacon with the sherry.

In the words of the t-shirt slogan, either you like bacon or you're wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 10:47 PM

My turkey turns out completely cooked (no undercooked thighs, in particular) and still moist, because it starts with the breast down and doesn't have a chance to get totally dried out. And I let the bird rest closer to an hour. That really does improve the quality. This year I had guests over, and I'd eaten at their house last year. Their turkey was really overcooked and very dry. The husband (who did the cooking) was asking about how to keep it so moist - so I sent him the recipe above.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: leeneia
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 11:33 PM

Hi, lefthanded guitar.

Thaw the turkey in the refrigerator. Yes, you will have to clear out the space to do it, but doing it any other way risks food poisoning. Pay no attention to those who say use a cool room or a cooler or some ice. Thaw the turkey in the refrigerator.

You've seen Justice with her scales. Now think of the scales as holding two things. One balance pan has Risk and the other has Reward. If you thaw a turkey outside the fridge, one pan contains a huge Risk and the other pan holds a Reward that is almost negligible.
(Poultry animals can have salmonella. It doesn't bother them at all, but it's terrible for humans.)

Picture yourself vomiting and having diarrhea. Curled up in bed, alternately hot and cold. Maybe going to the hospital. Is it worth risking it? And as for the idea that the turkey needs to be at room temp before going into the oven -that's silly. How warm would the outside get before the thickest parts are warmed through? The answer is "too warm."

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: lefthanded guitar
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 11:55 PM

Well this is a wonderfully spirited and informative discussion, and since we still have a couple weeks to the big holiday day, I m still absorbing all this advice and finely tuning
(some may say procrastinating) my final decision on The Big Thaw. Steve, it took me a little while but I did finally realize you meant Celsius! Your temp is exactly correct once I convert to Farenheit. Mrrzy, your link to the Washington Post, which I regard as a responsible and reliable publication, is most valued. So right now, I m hoping to do the thawing while cooking, in the interest of expediency- though let's face it, when we re dealing with any sort of frozen turkey, especially one the size of a small planet- there is no expediency.

I too have a fridge that would require a day or two shuffling and emptying to put the turkey in to thaw. And then, where would I put all the stuff I took out of the fridge? So that s second on the list. A distant second.

I have pondered the idea , if I decide to eat everything on the fridge in the next week or so, of doing a partial thaw in the fridge and then straight to the oven. But that seems to be complicating what is an already complicated mission. And I m looking for simple!
In fact I d forgotten that I need to buy an oven rack, and asking myself; did my grandmas ever use an oven rack?? I don t think so.

So.....I think for now stovetop stuffing is a very appealing option. I don t have a huge kitchen. There s barely enough counterspace for this turkey, not to mention loaves of bread.

I want to state for the record, btw, that up until a few years ago-okay maybe a few decades ago but still in the realm of the late 20th century, l- my family and friends and neighbors all thawed everything on the kitchen counter and no one died. In fact every kid in the town I grew up in had a pet turtle, and no one got salmonella. I m never one for conspiracy theories, but I m starting to suspect this whole salmonella thing is a myth started by peta or the vegan society or perhaps some turkey pots and pans retail organization. Did Bed Bath and Beyond invent this whole salmonella thing?

I m tempted to leave this dwarf avian glacier on the counter a couple days and take my chances.

But I won't. Like General MacArthur , after I thaw and truss and and fuss and dress and coddle and cook and serve this bohemothbird- I shall return. And I will give a full accounting to anyone still sensient after stuffing ourselves with holiday fare to listen.

Thanks cats, and all are welcome to keep gabbling and gobbling here if you like.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 01:36 AM

And you may try the Susan Stamberg (actually Craig Claiborne) cranberry sauce which looks unusual and tastes 'tasty' but unusual.
My personal fave is the "Garlicky Cranberry Chutney" at the same link. Credit to Madhur Jaffrey. Made it for Thanksgiving and it was well received.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Janie
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 02:10 AM

The bacon recommendations always intrigue me.

Thaw it however you feel comfortable thawing it such that you yourself are not worried about food poisoning.



I am a fan of either brining or what is called "dry brining" turkey, and with such a huge bird I think it likely one or the other is a good idea to not end up with a dry breast whilst getting the dark meat done. Given the size of the bird and other concerns related to convenience I would recommend dry brining. That involves thawing the bird, doing a heavy, herbed salt rub, wrapping it tightly and letting it absorb the rub.

There are a number of good recipes on-line. I've used several over the years and don't recommend one over another.

I've wet and dry brined turkeys and large roasting hens and find both methods are equal except wet-brining is messier and depends on having huge pots, a huge refrigerator, or the surety the weather will be cold outside and critters will not be drawn to the bird marinating in the cooler or cauldron sitting on the back porch on a sufficiently chilly stretch of weather.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 03:17 AM

Before you state that please Miss somebody did it first Miss

No chance he even can, Raggy. It was a perfectly normal and civil discussion until 13 Dec 17 - 10:33 AM. I'll let you figure out what happened then and add another line to my list. Some people will just shit on anything to annoy others.

Donuel - You would be welcome in this company but it is a great responsibility. How are you at calling bingo numbers? (Ask Steve) :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: mg
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 03:28 AM

I personally would let it thaw overnight..it would not totally thaw but they really freeze those turkeys extremely. Then I would cook it frozen. Lots of google ideas and assurances of safety. Cook longer and lower temp. Check for doneness. Don't serve it if it is not totally unequivocally done. Have a backup plan. I don't like OCD turkeys. I never thaw meat...just cook it frozen. Have ER on speed dial.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 04:11 AM

Salmonella isn't a myth Lefthanded, at best it will make you very ill, at worst it can kill.

In 2015 Globally over a quarter of a million people died from Salmonella poisoning.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 07:56 AM

You are at greater risk of food poisoning if your turkey is cold when it goes in the oven, as the middle of the bird won't get as hot during your chosen cooking time. The bird needs to be at room temp, not fridge temp, when it goes in the oven.

If your frozen turkey contains salmonella (etc.), the germs will still be there whether thawed in the fridge (danger of spreading the germs!) or in a cool room. In the latter case they will increase somewhat, especially if you wait a long time before cooking it. But here's the thing: in either case, proper cooking will kill ALL the bacteria. By proper cooking I mean getting the whole bird, including the deepest bits, hot enough. There's more chance of you achieving that if it goes in the oven at room temperature.

Food poisoning nearly always occurs when cooked food is kept warm, but not hot, for lengthy periods of time. Your well-cooked turkey is off to a good start, as it will contain no live salmonella when it comes out of the oven. Of course, it could pick some up from your worktops, dishcloths or unwashed hands. As soon as it cools to room temp the leftover turkey should be put in the fridge where it should be fine for three or four days. I always take the meat off the bones first in order to save space. The bones make a lovely stock for hearty soup, and lots of it, if you boil them for an hour or two with a carrot or two, some onions, a stick of celery and some herbs.

The only way you're going to get food poisoning from your uncooked turkey is by letting it come into contact with your hands, work surfaces or dishcloths which are then allowed to come into contact with food that isn't going to be heated. The most effective way of spreading germs from your raw turkey is to immerse it in liquid, which is then in danger of getting everywhere. Raw poultry in the UK has advice on the wrapper not to wash it. Brining will not kill all the pathogens.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 08:34 AM

A bird will still cook thoroughly at 160 it will just take a little longer but perhaps not dry out as much, as Turkey is wont to do.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 08:58 AM

180C (I had a degree symbol stashed away somewhere but I can't find it), thinking of a fan oven, is not ideal for three hours'-worth of roasting because it will dry out the breast meat. Meat is a very poor conductor of heat, so more leisurely cooking at a slightly lower temperature allows more time for heat to penetrate the bird whilst lessening the drying out. It's a balancing act. If I cooked my thirteen-pounders for three hours at 180C I can guarantee that the result would be greeted not with festive glee but with respectful silence accompanying the required manly chewing. Been there, done it, got the sweat-stained paper hat.

Over the years I've tried everything and I can only relate my own experiences. I hear what everyone else has to say, most of it is interesting but some of it is about approaches I've tried and rejected. I suppose that I've cooked sixty or seventy turkeys in my time, though I admit that a year in between is just about long enough to forget what I did right last time.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 10:32 AM

The 160°C should be 160°F. 160°C is 320°F, and although it will kill salmonella, the turkey cinders probably won't be enjoyable (even with gravy).

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 11:24 AM

Jeri, I think the 160^oC turkey is the recipe for the first Wham-O Super Ball.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Iains
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 11:58 AM

Using a fan oven gives a far more even heat distribution. As a result of this, both temperatures and cooking times need to be reduced to compensate. Having lived in areas prone to power cuts I have always made it a point to use a gas oven. Gas ovens with fans are fairly rare beasts.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 01:32 PM

No, 160C is definitely what I meant, Jeri.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 01:52 PM

Definitely would kill salmonella.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 02:26 PM

USDA recommends an oven temp of no lower than 325F, Jeri. It tells you to ensure that the centre of the bird should reach 165F. Is that what you're thinking of?

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 03:47 PM

Yes, Steve, sorry. I must've thought you meant the temperature of the bird, not the oven.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 04:43 PM

Here is the on-line instruction sheet for Self Basting Turkey

Some of the respondents indicate they cooked large turkeys (18-20 lb.) in rather less time than I would expect. I also don't trust that there would be enough juice left for a lot of gravy. Otherwise in my experience the major time saver is that you don't have to spend time basting, which come to think of it would extend the time it takes to cook because you'd have to open the oven door and perform the basting and that would let heat out of the oven.

I've been using the 'bag' method for many many years since before the Reynolds oven bags. One used to procure prime supermarket brown grocery bags, 2 per turkey, rub them translucent with butter, then scootch the turkey inside of one then box it in with the other. A fun if greasy procedure. The advent of the cookery bag has made this unnecessary and the procedure is all too easy now. Kind of set it and forget it.

You do want to start with a thawed bird, of course, for the times to work out.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: mg
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 07:15 PM

times at least used to vary if cooked on major holiday vs. ordinary day because of electric load..at least my mother said it was so. however, it is not really a tradition here to have turkey on christmas..more ham usually.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 07:41 PM

I agree about turkey. But for the shackles of Christmas tradition I'd never bother with it. A five-pound corn-fed free-range chicken is infinitely superior, and a huge shoulder of lamb on the bone, slow-cooked for at least six hours, is better still. That's the acme (sorry, Acme). Mrs Steve, unfortunately, is a little averse to properly-cooked beef (which means very pink in the middle), and I can't countenance "well-done beef." So we never do roast beef, though I have several exceptional beef stews and casseroles in my repertoire, the best of which is Elizabeth David's daube from her book French Provincial Cooking. You could google that and you might get it on the Guardian website. But I have ze book!

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 02:57 AM

Steve,
Why don't you cook two small joints of beef? - one spoilt, for your wife and one cooked properly, for you.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 04:16 AM

I always think that big hunks of meat cook the best...actually, I'm quite happy as long as I get the occasional sirloin or ribeye, barely seared....

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: lefthanded guitar
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 07:47 PM

That turkey is done-and it is DELICIOUS??!!!!!!!


Well if anyone for whatever reason was curious as to how it turned out and what advice helped me in getting this gargantuan bird from freezer to table, well here s the story. I took advice from many of you - and reverted to the old fashioned way of family cooking
Since leezia and others were so concerned about salmonella safety, I did decide to thaw it in the fridge. Took 4 days and wasn t even fully thawed then! But enough for me to pull out and discard the gizzard, etc. I spent and hour and a half cooking at a low light, then could remove the neck from the cavity, and discard that silly plastic thermometer pop up thing i.e.- my word if I m worried about health why would I want to cook plastic?


I removed the turkey from the murky fluid and set it in a new clean pan. I want you to know that bird STILL was not fully thawed! And I was getting a little daunted if not thoroughly annoyed by the printed instructions and the entirely unhelpful lady at Shady room phone support who glibly suggested if I had any questions to read the instructions. Which states for a 15 pound bird (so they say on the label but it felt more like 25 to me) I should cook it for 3 hours - to which I reply: are you kidding me????? It takes me 2 hours to cook a small chicken in my stove. 3 hours wouldn't ' t cook a wing on this pterodactlyle.
And then I decided to go back to my roots - to cook the turkey the old fashioned folksy way that had gone back generations. Sooooooooo.... I said goodbye and fare thee well to the tongs and the turkey baster, spices and lid I d purchased for this very occasion and did it the old school way: I cut up a half dozen onions. I poured a half cylinder of water into the pan with turkey and onions and threw a handful of salt over this bird- made a tent of aluminum foil , shoved it in the oven at 350 (Farenheit) on this side of the pond, cued in some Judy Collins for aural assistance- and that s it. I cooked that sucker for 2 days!!well let s say overnight and half midday. I turned it off from time to time & met it sit in a hot oven for a few hours, I don t know why my ancestors did this bit we did. Total actual cooking time- 8 hours . Plus standing time. And it s PERFECT -succulent and delicious and immersed in a kettle pond of onion gravy. I didn t even have to carve it- meat fell right off the bone?? as it always did in my house.

So it s all been transferred to another smaller bowl and ready to be served this weekend. Except the leg. My favorite part. Well ya know I DID have to sample it best to see it was okay for company. So it ll be missing a leg before the guests get at it. Who s to know.? With a bird this scrumptious no one should complain - and with a meal this
time consuming, no one should dare.

Wonderful help from all you catters and next year, for sure, we re eating out! I m glad I ve done it but unless they invent a self cooking self serving bird, I ve done my job for the holiday, the year & 21 st century.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: keberoxu
Date: 28 Dec 17 - 07:59 PM

That's a hilarious story, lefthanded guitar, and who doesn't enjoy a happy ending.

Enjoy the leftover turkey as well.
Memorable sandwich makings.

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 29 Dec 17 - 07:17 PM

old ways are best! & yummiest

Subject: RE: BS: How to get a frozen turkey to the table
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Dec 17 - 12:47 AM

Stewed turkey. Interesting!

I have a bird in the small fridge continuing to thaw after it spent the day in a deep tub of water defrosting. On Monday morning it will go into brine for a few hours (until we know my son's girlfriend will be able to catch the standby flight she is aiming for). Once she's on the plane, the bird goes into the oven. Baking time and standing time mean she should be walking in the door at dinner time. (That will translate to about 3-3.5 hours in the oven for an unstuffed bird.)