BS: how can you be other than an extremist?

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 08:41 PM

the American election was a good illustration.

you couldn't get the bernie sanders faction to admit they were opening the door to the age of Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 08:31 PM

" Not all those who insist on their rightness over willingness to compromise, are extremists. They're all assholes, though."

Not if they happen to be right they're not.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 08:28 PM

Dave Gnome sez: Interesting that Joe classed those who "would much prefer to be right, than to compromise and actually get something accomplished" as extremists though. I disagreed but I do recognise that trait in someone posting here. If I could just put my finger on it...

Logical Error Alert!!!!

Dave, I classed extremists as those who "would much prefer to be right, than to compromise and actually get something accomplished".

You got it switched around, Dave. Not all those who insist on their rightness over willingness to compromise, are extremists. I think they're mostly all assholes, though. We have to be able to forge compromises that are satisfactory to all, if we are to be able to live in peace with our neighbors.

I don't think that a good compromise involves feeling forced to accept something that one considers unacceptable. I think we need to go farther and work out compromises that serve the needs of all.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 01:09 PM

Here's the link again: Msinformation

As far as ot wearing a bra goes, few of the young people I hung out with in the late 60s-early 70s wore bras, feminists or not--except when they had to present themselves as straight.

Sorry for the thread drift.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 12:54 PM

There were protests and burning bras was a feature of some of them - there are other photos in which women are clearly braless, but not burning bras. That was more common, as I recall. The information from some sources say the photo itself is from a Toronto protest.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 12:49 PM

Vashta, I'm not saying it never happened, and I shouldn't have implied that in my first post, but in the US it was never a mass protest phenomenon, as it was portrayed by chauvinists in the media, and it began with an inaccurate report of the 1968 Miss America protest.

For my source, check the link I provided. It's actually of interest how the meme got started

I csn add that my feminist friends and feminists whose work I read at the time were furious at this misrepresentation of their cause.

Do you have any information about that photo, by the. way?

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 10:43 AM

Shouldn't that be Ms Information? And, er, "bottom..."?

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 10:41 AM

Jumping to the bottom - I don't know where Jackaroodave gets his misinformation. Bra burning was most definitely a thing in it's day.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 10:14 AM

I'm a leftie and you are a Tory, Keith. Let our speech be yea yea, nay nay.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 09:28 AM

I think your disdain for my thinking illustrates the prime trait of the extremist: The extremist would much prefer to be right, than to compromise and actually get something accomplished.

Seems pretty straightforward to me, Joe, but I am more than happy for you to correct me if you did not mean what this says.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 09:03 AM

Dave, I say it again: your backwards understanding of what I said is incorrect. Read again.
Joe Offer

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 08:25 AM

"Steve, please tell your friends again that you are Far left and proud of it."
Whwn you tell the world that your policies are in line with the BNP and Ukip, you might be entitled to suggest that Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 08:00 AM

I think anyone sensible knows enough about your politics to understand what you mean Steve. Don't jump!

Interesting that Joe classed those who "would much prefer to be right, than to compromise and actually get something accomplished" as extremists though. I disagreed but I do recognise that trait in someone posting here. If I could just put my finger on it...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 07:49 AM

Steve, please tell your friends again that you are Far left and proud of it.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 07:36 AM

I have just had Polish bread and sausage for lunch. I must be a rabid pinko commie.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 07:30 AM

I'll probably drink a couple at the dinner party I'm holding on Sunday!

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 07:22 AM

Me too!! I'm a decadent raging left winger, why only last week I bought a dozen bottles of Chateauneuf Du Pape from Lidl at £9.99 a bottle !!

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 07:01 AM

I'm off to Lidl in a minute as they stock a very nice Primitivo for £4.99... then with Mrs Steve to Morrisons to get some veg. Revolution, comrades!

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 06:50 AM

Unite against the capitalist oppressor, Comrades! Buy your chia seeds from Aldi.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 06:48 AM

I take it you have already read your scumbag left wing rag the Guardian?

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 06:44 AM

Well I'll contemplate whether or not I'm a ravin' leftie extremist as I drive to Waitrose later on...

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 06:30 AM

"You have certainly come across people here whose views are of the Far Left."
None whatever
The only extremists on this forum are the Islamophobes who talk about "implants" and Anti Semites who claim that to criticise Israel is antisemitic
There are very few open racists part from the small number of anti travellers and those , but there are those who attack the Irish (especially those who accuse Irish children of being "brainwashed to hate Britain")
Apart from those few, very few actual extrmists
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 06:22 AM

No I have not.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 06:12 AM

Dave,
Extremists are people who have either extreme views such as Stalinists,fascists or flat earthers; or those that perform extreme acts such as burning places and killing people. Other than the odd religious fruit cake, racist or homophobe I have never come across an extremist on this forum.

You have certainly come across people here whose views are of the Far Left.
Those are extreme political views.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 05:01 AM

Rarely get anything accomplished? I heard of one bloke who many consider to have been an extremist who accomplished a Holocaust...

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 04:21 AM

OK, Joe, you are right... :-)

Seriously though, there are too many issues being conflated here. If you start to tar everyone who has any such traits as extremists you will never be able to address the issue of real extremism. Can you honestly say that you consider those who always have to 'win' their arguments on here as extremists? Do you really think that there are any extremists, in the true sense of the word, posting on Mudcat? If there are I think you need to exclude them immediately!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 04:12 AM

Ah, but Dave, the converse is almost always true. The extremist is always right (in his/her mind), but rarely gets anything accomplished. People on the fringes don't get support until they get realistic and seek support from the good people in the middle - and there are lots of good people in the middle.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 03:27 AM

The extremist would much prefer to be right, than to compromise and actually get something accomplished.

Joe, that may be one trait of an extremist but is not extreme in itself. Many people have that characteristic, including some on here, but it does not make them extremists. The term should only be used for people who are, well, extreme.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jan 18 - 12:02 AM

Donuel says: Joe you sound like;
Love me. love me love me, I'm a liberal.

Maybe, Donuel, but I think your disdain for my thinking illustrates the prime trait of the extremist: The extremist would much prefer to be right, than to compromise and actually get something accomplished.

And speaking of extremists who are never wrong, how 'bout that guy coming out and expressing his disdain for "shithole" nations?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 11:08 PM

Courtesy of William Schwenk Gilbert:

WILLIS        

When all night long a chap remains
On sentry-go, to chase monotony
He exercises of his brains,
That is, assuming that he's got any.
Though never nurtured in the lap
Of luxury, yet I admonish you,
I am an intellectual chap,
    And think of things that would astonish you.
I often think it's comical--Fal, lal, la!
How Nature always does contrive--Fal, lal, la!
That every boy and every gal
That's born into the world alive
    Is either a little Liberal
    Or else a little Conservative!
      Fal, lal, la!

When in that House MPs divide,
If they've a brain and cerebellum, too,
They've got to leave that brain outside,
And vote just as their leaders tell 'em to.
But then the prospect of a lot
Of dull MPs in close proximity,
All thinking for themselves, is what
    No man can face with equanimity.
Let's rejoice with loud Fal la--Fal la la!
That Nature always does contrive--Fal lal la!
That every boy and every gal
That's born into the world alive
    Is either a little Liberal
    Or else a little Conservative!
      Fal lal la!

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 07:35 PM

Something on TV tonight made reference to a church in Sweden that (in the day) claimed to have a few drops of Jesus's mother's breast milk!

No tell me I am stretching the definition but asking people to believe that one (even in medieval times) is a bit extreme!

Hereford Cathedral - very Norman. Personally I get more excited when the fabric is pre-Norman. Like Brixworth Church. More Roman than Romanesque. The fabric that is, the actual building is a mere 1300 years old, quarried from a Roman villa. The fabric that is.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 06:49 PM

Well I love the church architecture I've seen all over Spain and Italy. Quite often, the insides don't match, either in art or in good taste, the fabulous exteriors. There are far too many cheap statues of generic flavour that are, er, painted. Then you have those awful obscene violent crucifixion depictions, sacred bleeding hearts and amateurish statues of saints gazing slightly upwards into a heavenly middle distance as though they are half-way through not quite the best orgasm they've ever had. Lots of the churches in Florence and Venice have amazing works of art and I've seen some wonderful Tintorettos, Giotto frescos, Donatello bas-reliefs and the rest. But the whole lot means an awful lot to me. It's my heritage, just as much as it's the heritage of the most fervent believer, which is what I am most decidedly not. I love it all and I go into every big church in every city I visit as my obsessive numero uno priority (though if you ever go to Napoli don't miss the Archaeological Museum, and if you ever go to Florence don't miss the Uffizi gallery). If you ever get to Lecce in Puglia, go to the Santa Croce basilica. Outside and in, it's my very favourite. Well, there's Hereford Cathedral too...

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 05:55 PM

Glad you weren't badly burned Steve.
Aren't mosquitoes absolute little sods? They really love me, and I've been terribly bitten in Africa, in spite of wearing full-length skirts and long-sleeved, loose tops. My feet are covered in awful scars where some bites got infected. Good job I religiously take my anti-malarials when in the Tropics!
I don't much like relics of bones, skulls, bits of 'the Cross' etc. They detract in my view from the actual spirituality. My sister is in the Church of Scotland, and they have completely simple buildings with plain white walls and just a pulpit for the Minister to conduct prayers and preach, no statues, pictures or candles. Very basic.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 05:38 PM

My mum has always said that if all the true relics of the cross were really true you'd have enough wood for Epping Forest!

I've seen several lots of saints' bones in Italy since our 2013 trip to Naples. The other thing you see in Italian churches is some kind of depiction of a skull, often complete with crossbones.

I felt the heat but jumped away before I got burned, Senoufou. My sandals were never the same again and I wore them just for gardening after that. The brand was Source, made in Israel. I still have an old pair that act as slippers when we go on holiday. Sadly, you can't get them here any more. I did get severely bitten by mosquitos in the Solfatara. I still have a scar on my leg to prove it. We'd been in the same area a month earlier and I'd escaped without a single bite, so the little buggers must have seen me coming. Grrr!

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 05:10 PM

The RC cathedral at Westminster has an entire preserved saint - John Southworth if I remember rightly. It was pretty extreme what they did to him! Lovely cathedral. Very Italian in style.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 04:19 PM

Joe you sound like;
Love me. love me love me, I'm a liberal.
Phil Ochs

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 03:42 PM

St. Stephen's Cathedral in Budapest has "The Holy Dexter." If you go to the side chapel and put a coin into the slot, a light goes on and you can see the preserved right hand of St. Stephen, first king of Hungary.

But back to extremism and away from extremities...

I used to think of myself as a liberal; but somewhere along the way, I got interested in the idea of consensus politics. It seems to me, that things don't work very well unless they are supported by the vast majority of people. Otherwise, things go back and forth according to the vagaries of majority vote, and nobody is satisfied for very long.

But if I think of what I hold to be important, I still come out quite liberal (by U.S. standards). The ideals I seek are:

Unrestricted international borders and immigration
Equal employment opportunity and pay for all races and genders
Strict procedures to eliminate racial and gender imbalance
Heavy taxation of those with obscenely high income
Free education through all levels
Guaranteed subsistence income for all
Government-paid healthcare
Subsidies for the arts and public broadcasting


And so forth. But my belief in consensus, demands that none of my ideals can become law until they are accepted as reasonable by the vast majority of people. If my ideals are not accepted, then it's up to me to sell them until they become acceptable.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 01:58 PM

Ah! That's fascinating Steve. I did read about that poor lad who ignored the sign and fell into the boiling mud.
Shame about your sandals. Did you have blisters?
I do hate it when churches 'abroad' have gruesome bits of saints on view. The church in Corfu has the remains of Saint Teodora, and one can kiss the skull if one waits in a queue. (I didn't)
I do apologise for this hijacking of a thread. I just like to find out about everything. Sorry!

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 01:42 PM

It did. It was in the Solfatara volcano, near Naples. The large crater is more or less level with the surrounding area and you can just walk in (not free!). There are boiling mud pools and a large number of viciously-hissing fumaroles in there and, as I found out, some very hot ground. The crater is the site of the martyrdom of San Gennaro in 305 AD. He's the patron saint of Napoli and, somewhat gruesomely, his bones are all too visibly sticking out of a large urn in the crypt of the cathedral. The crater is about ten miles out of Naples, in the town of Pozzuoli. It's on the metro line out of Naples. Watch your pockets!   

Sadly, a young boy and his parents died in the Solfatara a few months ago when they fell into a pit of boiling mud. The lad had ignored a safety barrier. The volcano last erupted in 1198 when surface rainwater reacted with magma near the surface, whst vulcanologists call a phreatic eruption. It isn't far from Vesuvius but it's not on the same magma field.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 01:11 PM

In America leftist Democrats are generally called radicals and the extreme right wingers are called extremists.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 01:05 PM

(Sorry about thread drift)
Did the fumarole give off stinky gas Steve? I'm amazed when people plod around on active volcanoes, as I'd have thought the sulphurous gases would be absolutely lethal.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 12:54 PM

I was, literally. It burned most of the tread offa me soles!

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 12:48 PM

Hahaha Steve! I bet you were hopping mad!

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 12:45 PM

It all depends on where one is standing though Dave. Saying someone has an extreme view is merely an opinion voiced from the other side of the fence. Who is the arbiter?
Killing people seems to us to be extreme, but many Brits would be glad to advocate killing members of Isis. Look at the intense debates on capital punishment. Many folk would be glad to see paedophiles hanged.
These are extreme standpoints in a way.

I've been accosted in Tesco by an extremist, fundamentalist, heavily-veiled Bangladeshi-born Muslim lady who knows my husband is a Muslim. She bangs on and on about how we are NOT married until I convert to Islam and have a wedding in the mosque.
She's an absolute pain, but since I can see her point of view, I can smile faintly and carry on putting packets of crumpets in our trolley.
My sister though would let her have it with both barrels.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 12:44 PM

I once burned my sandals. Not because I'd decided to morph into a right-wing Telegraph-reading reactionary, but because I was standing too close to a fumarole in the crater of a volcano...

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 12:32 PM

Extremists are people who have either extreme views such as Stalinists,fascists or flat earthers; or those that perform extreme acts such as burning places and killing people. Other than the odd religious fruit cake, racist or homophobe I have never come across an extremist on this forum. There are plenty of diverse political views from across the spectrum but they are all, in the main, just a broad slice of normal characters. Some may seem extreme because they are viewed from the other end of the range but no-one on here is an extremist. Apart from Keith who is extremely annoying.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 12:30 PM

"It wasn't the royals themselves who suggested this clearance, but Simon Dudley, the Conservative Leader of Royal Borough of Windsor and Maidenhead Council, without even consulting his fellow Council members!."
If the couple abide by the Council's wishes they will be endorsing it
One Prince has taken part in a marathon on behalf of the homeless, another is an active sponsor of a homeless charity.
At least someone from Buck House needs to express an opinion on the suggestion
The Dook of E never seems to have a problem in ruffling feathers when it comes to his sometimes offensive opinions
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 12:21 PM

Barry Goldwater-1964

In your heart you know he's right. In your guts you know he's nuts.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 12:09 PM

Steve,
The people at the edges of a distribution curve are not extremists. They are the people at the extremes.

OK. If you prefer, delete all my references to "extremists" and replace with "extreme people" or "people at the extreme."

My case remains unchanged.

Subject: RE: BS: how can you be other than an extremist?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 11 Jan 18 - 11:55 AM

No, I wasn't, Senoufou. And I may have missed some occurrence in a corner of the US. But the legend of aggrieved feminists burning their bras at the 1968 Miss America Pageant and sparking a national trend was utterly false and repeatedly invoked to discredit and ridicule the movement.