BS: Do we learn from history?

Subject: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Kampervan
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 02:46 AM

Today is National Holocaust Remembrance Day.

We are exhorted to remember what happened so that it might never happen again and it is difficult to argue with that sentiment.

But, bearing in mind the words of Georges Santayana - ‘’ Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.’’ - I wonder, do we (collectively) ever recognise, learn and don’t repeat, any of our mistakes?

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: BobL
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 03:21 AM

The only thing history teaches us is that nobody ever learns anything from history.
History repeats itself, the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce.
A student who changes the course of history is probably taking an exam (sorry, can't attribute any of these).

The mistakes post-WW1 led up to WW2: we seem to have managed to avoid repeating them at least.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 05:02 AM

I can see similar racist attitudes today as those that pertained in pre-War Germany. People can still be anti-immigrants, anti-travellers,anti-blacks and so on. The circumstances may differ, but the mindsets appear to be the same. Some folk would be thrilled if it were suggested we round up all immigrants and transport them off to 'camps'.
It makes me very sad that 'lessons have NOT been learned'. Since the Holocaust we've had Rwanda, Cambodia and no end of other genocides.

I knew a Deaconess in Scotland who had been in the Red Cross and among those who liberated Auschwitz. She never spoke much about what she saw, but said only that she had seen Hell with her own eyes. She noted that one could smell the camp about twenty miles away when approaching it.

Just after the War, cinemas didn't hesitate to show the mounds of corpses and skeletal 'survivors' on their Newsreels. I was very shocked as a child to see these things.
I always light a candle and put it in front of our door on Holocaust Remembrance Night. A tiny gesture in honour of all those millions and millions of sufferers and deaths.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Kampervan
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 05:37 AM

I fear that what you say is very true Senoufou.

I was born in '49 and I grew up playing on bomb sites, learning about WWII and seeing pictures of the holocaust in the Sunday papers (I suppose it to illustrate the trials of people like Eichmann).

I naively thought that it was so terrible that it could never happen again, who in their right mind would ever do something like that?

How stupid I was. The pursuit of power and wealth seems to be a constant in a proportion of people and it is difficult to see that ever ending.

World peace? I think that I'll leave it there, I'm getting quite depressed!

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 06:54 AM

One thing that is abundantly clear is that while WW1 and 11 in Europe recognised and mostly adhered to a set of rules concerning the treatment of civilians and prisoners, modern wars have no such constraints. Wars are fought to achieve political objectives. Terrorism has the same driver and now the boundaries are blurred, as are the rules of engagement.
I wonder to what extent the obliteration of innocent civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki contributed to tearing up the rule book and negating the Geneva conventions. The same could be asked of waterboarding.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Mr Red
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 07:04 AM

society No

personally - well most;y.

But society is full of bright young things that didn't experience the pain last time. Explaining pain to those who haven't experienced it, is like describing Stilton cheese to those wot haven't stilted yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 08:41 AM

" Wars are fought to achieve political objectives. "
Most wars have always been fought to achieve political objectives - once it was the Empire, now it's oil and national or religious superiority
It's a moot point whether Europe adhered to the rulebook (a rulebook on killing is an obscenity in itself anyway) - victors never commit war crimes because it's they who get to write the history books that count.
I agree entirely about Hiroshima and Nagasaki - you might add Dresden and The Blitz into that list
WW2 was an interlude between colonial wars, which carried on once 'peace!!' had been achieved, with is's own level of butchery and assassination.
Now we are involved in conflicts directly arising from the mess we left behind with the collapse of Empire - The Middle East being a prime example.
The most depressing thing is that sales of arms have become an essential part of major economies, in which case, "if war had never existed it would have been necessary to invent it" - to misquote
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 08:52 AM

Gotterdammerung

Hitler's last chapter of defeat was to condemn the German people to be punished for not achieving total victory. Total death and defeat was their reward.

In Trump's first chapter would he too become irrationally vengeful should he lose his legitimate Presidency?

Would Donald call upon the good people of armed right wing militias to terrorize and punish America? Or will he go away peacefully accepting the rule of law?

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 09:00 AM

"and mostly adhered to a set of rules concerning the treatment of civilians and prisoners"

Iains, just remember that today is National Holocaust Remembrance Day.

Your statement is crass ............ in the extreme.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 09:48 AM

"Do we learn from history?"

A: Of course, but not as fast (or permanently) as many of us would prefer, and it's hard to see progress when we look at it within the frame of reference of our own life span.

Zoom out to a century-long measure, and the progressive trend is obvious.

It is grievous to be caught in the inevitable pendulum swings, as targets ourselves or as folks loving the targeted. Thus, sentence A.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 10:02 AM

Raggytash anyone with half a brain cell is all to well aware of the facts surrounding Hitler and the Jews. That is why I qualified the statement. If you want to pick holes try stuffing a finger up your nose, it maybe more beneficial.

The thesis I tried to develop above before I hit send by mistake and then had to go out was: In WW1 and WW2 the fight in europe was fought largely to a codified set of rules. The Boer War by contrast had Britain introduce concentration camps incarcerating Boers. The war in the Pacific was far more brutal with the Japanese ignoring most conventions. In more recent times wars have become asymmetric and civilian casualties conveniently discounted as collateral damage. The disparities of asymmetric warfare leads often to a situation where there are no rules - only survive.
The only thing we learn from history is that each time a war breaks out, we find more and more efficient ways of killing each other and the nature of warfare can change dramatically.Sometimes this is in ways that would make the medieval torture chambers seem quite tame.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 10:05 AM

Au contaire Iains, anyone with half a brain would not have posted the nonsense you did.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 10:57 AM

The founding of what is now the EU, largely at the time driven by the recoil from two terrible wars, was a good example of learning from history. Countries which are democracies, which abide by human rights standards and which adhere to the rule of law seldom have appetites for warring among themselves. Unfortunately, it doesn't stop them from interfering in countries which don't necessarily share those standards and it doesn't stop them from indulging in the kinds of proxy wars we saw in Central America in Reagan's time or in the running sore of Middle East conflicts. Generally, you just have to look for who it is that the West is arming. The lesson of Vietnam wasn't well learned.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 10:59 AM

He's having a nonsense day everywhere, Raggytash. I made a plain and completely truthful statement in the brexit thread and he called it a total distortion. He's back in full gratuitous insult mode.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 03:43 AM

"If goods don't cross borders, armies certainly will." - Frédéric Bastiat (1801-1850)

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Mr Red
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 04:01 AM

The most depressing thing is that sales of arms have become an essential part of major economies, And struggling ones like North Korea! Except replace essential with major.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Senoufou
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 04:14 AM

Well, I lit my little candle last night and because it was very windy I put it in a glass jar. It burned brightly until it went out an hour or two later. I said a short prayer and shed a tear (I always do, those appalling times were, as the Deaconess said, a glimpse of Hell)

But I notice that the 'Doomsday Clock' has been moved closer to midnight. We're apparently now approaching World Annihilation.
It doesn't look as though Humans have learned anything.
Sigh...

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 04:30 AM

I have the perfect solution! Put politicians in uniform to fight. I would put blair and bush on mine clearance for as long as they remain a success.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 04:55 AM

Something we can fully agree on Iains. If the people who start wars were in danger themselves I think that not many would have been started.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 05:26 AM

Dave.The present Parliament has about 50-60 MPs with military experience. Whether this minority has managed to temper suggested punitive action in the past is a mute point. Perhaps someone would care to plough through Hansard to find out?

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 06:13 AM

Fer chrissake I've finally cracked. You keep doing it. It's "moot," right? Moot means debatable. Mute is what many of us wish you would be. Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 11:30 AM

Just another little way of winding you up. It is very successful.
Took you a while to catch it though.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 11:39 AM

Not at all. I did say I'd FINALLY cracked. You've been doing it for ages and you've been doing it out of sheer ignorance. You say "irregardless" a lot as well. You're semi-literate.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 01:46 PM

You're semi-literate."
Bit generous there Steve
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Senoufou
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 01:53 PM

So, (just to be clear) only extremely literate or erudite folk are allowed on here? The odd typo renders one a pariah?
I wish you lot would stop this bullying. Iains is as entitled to his views as you are.
Stop picking on him, it's nasty.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 02:05 PM

That is priceless coming from you jimmy.
You could not make it up!

Instantaneously would suggest immediate recognition, finally suggests the synapses were misfiring, a bit slow on the uptake, a bit dim. Need I say more - apart from suggesting you check that what you post is what you mean. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, know what I mean?
The esteemed Mr Tebbit was once called semi literate. I am happy to be included in such exalted circles.

You quite lose your rag when you or any of your party are given a rough ride but you feel quite free to be the most insufferable, insulting poster on this entire forum, with jimmy the ranter coming a close second.. You have issues Shaw. Constantly posting garbage here is not the cure. Therapy is.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 03:39 PM

Oh, he won't stop posting his views. But he has this habit of dissing teachers and education whilst simultaneously posting illiterate rubbish. That's the epitome of jealousy in a man who clearly sat at the back of his classes flicking paper pellets at the teacher. And look how he's turned out! Maybe you haven't seen enough of his serially insulting behaviour and childish views, Senoufou. Plenty of evidence if you wade through the threads (I don't advise it). Anyway, enough of that. Let's learn from history instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Senoufou
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 03:52 PM

Hahaha, if I'd had pupils who tried to flick pellets at me, I'd have flicked them right back! (And I had a myriad horrid punishments up my sleeve for such behaviour...mwaaahaaahaa)

I'm only speaking as I find Steve, and I've found several of Iains' posts most interesting and informative.

There were lots of programmes last night on TV about the Kindertransport and Holocaust survivor interviews, not to mention footage of the camps, but I confess I just couldn't face them.
My husband (very sensibly) said that I wouldn't be helping anyone by sitting glued to the television getting upset.
He knows a great deal about Rwanda, and thinks Mankind will never learn from past tragedies, as human nature doesn't change (or learn).

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 04:03 PM

I think there's more hope than that. I mentioned the founding of what is now the EU as a recoil from war. Fascism, with all its horrors of mass murder and disappearances, has been banished from Europe except for a few marginal parties who never quite seem to get a foothold but about whom we should never be complacent. We see things all too clearly these days on our screens and little can be hidden any more behind the adage that the first casualty of war is the truth. We're currently going through a phase of history in which it is becoming unacceptable to abuse children and women. The phase is acutely painful right now but a lot of good will come out of it. It's getting harder all the time to hide atrocities. Video cameras find it hard to lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 04:18 PM

Senoufou, I know you always try to pour oil on troubled waters and I thank you for that.

However !

On another thread Iains posted:

"illicted? I do not like to draw attention to such things as this is shaws predilection. Perhaps elicited?"

I'm sorry but if he thinks it is OK to rebuke someone for an error he deserves everything he gets in return.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Senoufou
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 04:26 PM

That's a good and hopeful view Steve. And it's true that all is on view with Press coverage of world events nowadays.

I have rather stiff fingers Raggytash, and I make typos quite a bit. It's easily done. The trouble is, getting bogged down in stroppiness detracts from the subject of the thread and inhibits the discussion somewhat.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 04:39 PM

I quite agree Senoufou, we should all behave as adults and accept that people make mistakes when we are typing.

But.

It would seem that a small minority, with no other point to make, hark on about otherwise trivial matters.

This forum would be a lot better if these minor blemishes were ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 05:05 PM

"It would seem that a small minority, with no other point to make, hark on about otherwise trivial matters.

This forum would be a lot better if these minor blemishes were ignored."

The minority is actually one. The name is shaw. Perhaps you should articulate your concerns directly to him.

You will find only one reference to a spelling mistake in all my posts. That was today and it was no big deal, merely seeking clarity.
   Whereas that stroppy shaw fellow picks on my spelling, grammar, education, "insecurity" several times a week. This is normally to pad out his gormless warblings when he has nothing else to say and cannot think of a subject to sidetrack the thread on.
I would say in his case it is far far more than a blemish. It is a relentless campaign to drive anyone away that does not agree with his worldview.
If it had any impact on me I would call it bullying, but it does not.
However if there is one person on here that constantly creates friction by constant abuse it is shaw.
When he generates retaliation he tries to play the little innocent and if that does nor work he counters by threatening to report people to the moderators, or rambling on about weed, booze and cookery.
I believe the moderators on this forum do what they have to do and could probably do without a gobby little shite threatening to   run to teacher every five minutes.
I find it frightening that anyone displaying the behaviour of shaw on this forum could have actually been allowed to teach. Perhaps he is a wimp masquerading as a keyboard warrior.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 05:14 PM

Well thar she blows! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 05:19 PM

I think you will find a genuinely nasty post in the last one, Eliza. Shame really because Iains can post quite civilly when he is not addressing Steve. You have missed a lot of history here. Don't make the mistake of taking all posts at face value.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: keberoxu
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 05:37 PM

Is that what you all mean by learning from history . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 05:51 PM

the mistake of taking all posts at face value

5 our fathers, 7 hail Marys and 50 re reading your above post Iains.

Eventually like at Christmas time, you will see how we like to give presents that we actually want for ourselves.

From semi literate insufferable insults to therapy, these are all things you aspire to have or to make for yourself. Your cries for help are transparent to all but you. Start your journey with one step.
Read your own posts, you are talking to yourself more than you know.
Organize them into various distinct phases.

When you are through, decide the next phase you want to explore.
You were rudderless and out of control. Get ready. sleep...sleep
Take control. Stop doing what aimless people do.
Get fired don't be fired.
First earn a degree, don't get a degree.
Be all that you can be and forget this phase.

Maybe then you will learn from history and you
can stop repeating and forget your history.
ready aim .
fire in the first degree at the history that held you back

When orange is in the crosshairs...ready aim fire

Queen of Hearts repeat Queen of hearts

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 06:03 PM

Posts like that appear to satisfy some terrible visceral need in him. Just ignore the anger, chaps and chapesses. He'll be back tomorrow as if nothing has happened. Which will be just a bit poignant, if there's anything such as "a bit poignant."

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 06:07 PM

Shame really because Iains can post quite civilly when he is not addressing Steve.

Could have fooled me.......

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 06:20 PM

Yeah, Dave, seen some of his anti-jimmie posts recently? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 06:43 PM

Anyway, let's not let this thread be hijacked by an illiterate and rather sad troll. It's a great idea for a thread. Let's stick to the point from hereonin.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: keberoxu
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 07:10 PM

It cracks me up to see you ignoring Donuel.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 07:23 PM

Who's ignoring Donuel? Listen, I post loads of posts here to which I get no direct and immediate response. It don't mean a thing. Donuel knows that I love him. Stop worrying.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 09:23 PM

I'm concerned with the expanded notion of: "Do we learn ANYthing from ANYthing?"

Some quotes and quips:

Supposedly Zhou En-Lai of China was asked what were the developments of the French Revolution. His answer was: "It's too early to say."

Supposedly Mahatma Gandhi was asked what he thought of Western Civilization. His response: "It would be a good idea."

I also have been playing over in my mind the song "The Green Fields of France" sung to young Willie McBride:

Oh Willie McBride it all happened again
And again, and again, and again, and again

I take some appreciation that after the most violent and damaging war in human history there has been no further use of nuclear weapons.
I take some appreciation for the courage and leadership of Chancellor Angela Merkel in taking in a huge portion of refugees as no doubt a consequence and reflection of Germany's involvement in The Holocaust.

There are many knee-jerk reactions out there. They are reactions of fearful people. People who would not look through Galileo's telescope. People not capable of learning. But those people are not all people.

And as always I take heart from the history and words of Abraham Lincoln: "I hold that while man exists, it is his duty to improve not only his own condition, but to assist in ameliorating mankind."

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 18 - 09:38 PM

You should also take heart from the foundation of the bond between countries in Europe that led eventually to the EU and which has comprehensively seen off any prospect of a third pan-European war. I do understand that that very notion sticks in the craw of brexiteer-minded people. Tough luck. It's true.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 10:28 AM

Did anyone learn from the Manchurian Candidate?
It seems not.

Did anyone recognize my Manchurian Candidate parody?

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 10:44 AM

"Yeah, Dave, seen some of his anti-jimmie posts recently? ;-)"
Insecurity and too-close-for-comfort postings
Always a good gauge of where we are
Don't spoil it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 01:34 PM

Don'l, you won't be surprised to learn that any refs you made to "The Manchurian Candidate" went right over my noggin. I'm assuming you meant the memorable first version, with Angela Lansbury as Red Mama, the redoubtable James Gregory as dupe McCarthyite senator, luscious Leslie Parrish and the programmable Laurence Harvey; some pretty shocking scenes for their time (1962); not the forgettable remake about 15 years ago.
We learned enough from that history to make art into reality last year.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 05:34 PM

Well, Donald Trump has certainly learned something from history.

He's learned that sowing seeds of discontent in the masses and blaming society's problems on others works as well in today's USA as it did in 1930s' Germany.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we learn from history?
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Jan 18 - 06:32 AM

Senator Joe McCarthy is being released from hell today so he can witness the entire Republican Congress supporting Putin's Russia and President Trump, who is entirely financed by Russia. Joe's agony will be exquisite because he will have no mouth but he must scream.

Lucifer is cast as Speaker Paul Ryan.

Jesus is posing as evangelist Tony Perkins who gives President Trump a do over Mulligan and forgives the Donald.

Chapter 2 The poison pen memo

stay tuned