Freemasonry. Is it good or bad?

Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 11:08 AM

Kenny B I thought I made my take on it clear when I said no man can serve two masters. Parliament obviously shered my concerns, hence the last link I provided. How that concern was finally resolved I do not know. I presume it was a political football and kicked into the long grass until such time as renewed "scandal" forces the issue back into the spotlight. Members of the 3 arms of government belonging to a secretive organisation would raise concerns for any rational person I would have thought, but perhaps sheople are in the ascendancy.

Shaw you are a fool. One day you will wise up.

Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad?
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 11:36 AM

I dont believe that Freemasonry has any more influence on what goes on in either politics or the judiciary in this country than the Bullingdon Club or its equivalents in sport or other pastimes.
Money talks and the media is it voice in public
Serving two master is a cliché, we all do a balancing act to get by
why should individual Freemasons be any different to anyone else.
I wonder what hat i'll wear today (Smiley)

Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad?
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 11:40 AM

But judging the group by acts of individuals, is what most people call Bigotry.

So I'm a bigot, Joe, for judging the Ku Klux Klan? Or the Aryan Brotherhood? ACT For America? The Family Research Council? The League of the South?

Interesting.

Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 11:45 AM

Guess you'll have to live with the fact that some people think you're a bigot, Shaw. I don't imagine you'll ever come to an understanding of this flaw in yourself.
Factual criticism of misdeeds within an organization is useful and necessary. When it becomes an incessant diatribe against an entire group, it becomes bigotry.
Most people are ordinary. They do not do horrible (or heroic) deeds on a regular basis, and they should be allowed to live their lives without harassment or condemnation for that, despite what self-righteous ideologues may think of them. I do think "live and let live" applies very well here.
So, what is there of a factual nature that you have to say about Freemasons, Mr. Shaw?

-Joe Offer-

And Mr. Greg, there are serious flaws in your logic. Obviously, if the organization itself exists for the purpose of wrongdoing, that's another matter. Your Ku Kluxers fall into that category. The Catholic Church and the Freemasons do not - nor does the Republican Party.

Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad?
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 12:08 PM

if the organization itself exists for the purpose of wrongdoing, that's another matter.

But that's not what you said, Joe:

But judging the group by acts of individuals, is what most people call Bigotry.

Also, since the group(s) in question are indeed made up of individuals- or they wouldn't exist-..... on whose actions should they be juged again?

Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 12:22 PM

Steve, According to my wife I am a bigot. If you raise the specter of a nefarious act by an individual it is often confused with an indictment of a race. (the dark matter reference applies to stuff with no interaction or collision)

Kenny B, its true the Knights Templar felt anti Catholic after their massacre in the same way Winston Churchill felt anti German after the blitz.

Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad?
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 01:27 PM

Donuel ....Isn't it amazing what you find out when you start digging using the big eye "google" the all seeing one   .... well nearly

Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 02:26 PM

"Guess you'll have to live with the fact that some people think you're a bigot, Shaw"

Well why don't you set up a poll, Offer, and we'll see how many, shall we?

Alternatively, why don't you go and have a nice lie down?

Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 02:29 PM

In the days before google, my dad said who ever finds a way to find everything on the internet will rule the world.

Google is like Family Feud 'Survey says...'
Meanwhile #1 search results can be bought with cash.

Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad?
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 02:44 PM

Donuel

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Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 09:57 AM

The Catholic Church and the Freemasons do not - nor does the Republican Party.

Joe, Joe, you've gone over to the dark side. You're engaging in the same tactics as our Mister Bilbo- excuse me, Bobad - who labels anyone who criticizes the Israeli regime as "anti-semitic", i.e. anyone who criticizes the actions of the Catholic Church hierarchy is a "bigot".

As for ther Republican Party, you must have missed the polls that indicate the number of Republican voters who still enthusiastically support President Racist Misogynist Shithole Clusterfuck and the silence of 99.9% ofRepublican Congressmen & women ditto. As currently constituted, its more than fair to characterize the Party as existing for the purpose of wrongdoing.

Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 11:31 AM

Not as old as YOU calling Black Democrats "Dumb Ni**ers"

Subject: BS: So, About Freemasonry
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 02:06 PM

I spent a long time typing this message. When I submitted it, I got this message: Sorry, this thread (click) is closed.

Here is the text of your post:
Well, I can't say I disagree with the closure because there were certain individuals who were wigging out in the thread; but I'll be damned if I'll forfeit all the hard work and time I expended on my post, so here it is.

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OK, logic lesson.

Gref_F questioningly quotes Joe Offer: But judging the group by acts of individuals, is what most people call Bigotry.

Greg Responds: So I'm a bigot, Joe, for judging the Ku Klux Klan? Or the Aryan Brotherhood? ACT For America? The Family Research Council? The League of the South?

In that case, what we judge is the corporate act of the group, and the acts and purposes of these groups are abhorrent.

Two different things. We judge individuals by their individual actions, and we judge groups by their corporate actions. And although we may disagree with the groups that individuals associate with, we must assess individuals individually.

In addition, if we wish to accomplish anything in this world, we will have to form alliances with people we do not completely agree with. And to do this, we must treat those individuals with respect, despite our differences. In time, we might even learn to appreciate those differences and learn from them.

I don't think I could ever agree completely with Freemasons, but there are so many things I like about them. One of the National Treasure movies was set in the context of Freemasonry, and it gave a good taste of the fascinating lore and history and mythology of Freemasonry. I've mentioned the architecture above. Several times, I've enjoyed visiting the George Washington Masonic Memorial in Alexandria, Virginia. It attempts to be a replica of the lighthouse at Alexandria, Egypt - one of the Seven Wonders of the World. Inside is a museum of Masonic artifacts, all very interesting. The memorial is not only a lighthouse replica, it's an obelisk, a important emblem of Freemasonry - as is the Washington Memorial across the Potomac in Washington DC.

I suppose one could say that much of the lore of Freemasonry is fakelore; but it has been part of Freemasonry for so long that I think it also deserves to be considered as folklore.

One could also say that the underpinnings of Freemasonry are myth. But hey, I belong to a religion that has its own myth, so I don't have any problem with that. I am not an absolutist like the born-again Christians and what I call born-again atheists*, so I feel no obligation to view myth as actual or putative absolute truth. I can appreciate myth for what it is - myth, a story or system of stories meant to convey a deeper truth.

So, yeah, I'm not likely to join the Freemasons - but I certainly respect them.

-Joe-

*Note that what I call "born-again" Christians and atheists, is not a term I would apply to all Christians and atheists. Some, maybe most, are intelligent, insightful, and open-minded. Many are able to acknowledge and criticize and reject and even poke fun at the shortcomings of the groups they come from. There's something good about coming from roots that are not perfect. It gives us humility and tolerance. Perfectionists tend to be boring and tediously critical, but those who rise from the muck are the salt of the earth.

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Joe, you could have just added your remarks to this otherwise closed thread without starting a new one, we know you know how to do this stuff still. Your remarks were moved here to keep the context but to stop the running battle. --mudelf

Subject: RE: Freemasonry. Is it good or bad?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 03:33 AM

Joe, you could have just added your remarks to this otherwise closed thread without starting a new one, we know you know how to do this stuff still. Your remarks were moved here to keep the context but to stop the running battle. --mudelf

[Sigh] Yes, I do know how to do that. But I also know that if I did, I might well be rightly accused of reopening and then closing the thread so I could get in the last word. I've had that accusation before. It wasn't true then, and it isn't true now.
I have found that if moderators close a thread, that's usually enough. If people start a continuation thread on the subject, the new thread is usually much more civil. So, that's why I started a new thread. I wasn't done talking on the subject, and I was sure I was going to be able to convince Steve Shaw and Greg_F to change their evil ways since I think they're basically good people who just need to "see the light." I had intended to start the new thread with a civil comment to attempt to change the tone of the discussion, and I think my comment was quite civil. I didn't even call Steve Shaw a bigot in it....
-Joe Offer-

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The threads were merged because the same combatants from the first thread followed Joe to the second one. Rather than have two closed threads as objects of consideration for trolling, the coherent remark was moved and the rest of the nastiness was deleted. --mudelf