BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA

Subject: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 11:05 AM

What fucking idiots in the usaian congress, they still won't ban guns and still the massacres happen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 11:27 AM

Still, even they had the sense to get rid of the English Royal Family.

They can't be that daft.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 12:10 PM

Must be years since i mused here fhat all Americans might as well be armed to the teeth and left to shoot each other. Never dreamt they'd take me up on it. Bravo!

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 12:27 PM

It's depressing as Hell how vociferous the pro-gun lobbyists are after an event like this. The party line is that a good guy with a gun could solve that nasty old shooter problem - a scenario that rarely if ever is transacted. But they keep shouting.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 12:57 PM

I kinda think that at least in the United States, prohibitive laws don't work unless they are supported by a large majority. If a law of prohibition doesn't have 75% support, the 25% will raise such a ruckus that the law will fail.

I tell anti-abortion people this, and those who oppose gay marriage - and the same thing applies to gun control. If you don't have 75% support, better get to work changing hearts and minds.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 12:57 PM

There has to be a significant amount of de-stupidification here. One hopes that the assholes who favor the gun lobby over their constituents (and doing their fucking jobs) will be voted out when the wheel spins.
...or maybe it will take a psycho with a gun letting loose in Congress. Not a good thing, but these school mass murders mostly don't "hit them where they live", so they don't care.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 01:02 PM

Joe, I'm pretty sure there's a high enough percentage of people who support background checks and/or an assault weapons ban.

The failure to enact these things is, IMO, mostly the fault of the NRA and gun money... and suck-up, money-grubbing, insensitive, do-nothing Republican.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 01:06 PM

We're OK
Trump has just said "well make people's safety R TAP PRIORiTY
Sleep easy in your shrouds
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 01:18 PM

Is a "tap priority" something to do with dancing?

According to a Quinnapiac University poll, 95% of those polled want background checks. (It was on Twitter, so...)
Republicans, clue up or get out.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 01:31 PM

The trouble is, even if all guns were banned tomorrow, people would be extremely reluctant to hand theirs in. The USA appears to be awash with the things, and it would be almost impossible to search everybody's house, car, garage, sheds etc.
Drugs are officially banned, but both UK and USA have enormous drug problems, because the wretched stuff gets through and people continue
to deal/buy it. Same with guns.
The only solution to some pro-gun folk is for simply everyone to be armed and thus defend themselves. Gunfight at the OK corral...
I feel so very sad for the victims' families of this latest tragedy.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Ed.
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 01:54 PM

As someone in the UK, I find some of the US attitudes utterly baffling. Comments such as Marco Rubio's: "now isn't the time to talk about gun control", seem completely bizarre. It really, really is...

However, I accept that the historical and cultural norms on this issue are very different to those of Europeans.

One thing I don't understand at all though, and perhaps someone could enlighten me, why are the NRA seemingly so extremely powerful?

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 02:05 PM

I agree, Jeri. Background checks and an assault weapons ban are a good first step. But Trump is packing the courts with conservative judges, and I don't think that bodes well for anti-gun laws.

I think that an assault weapons ban could do some good. Even though lots of people already have assault weapons, I get the feeling that the ones used by mass killers are often recently-purchased. I don't think we could pull off a gun ban like they did in Australia - too many Americans would refuse to give up their guns, and and some would get militant to protect their "rights." We live in a gun culture, and culture does not change easily.

I'm not sure what happened to CCW (carrying concealed weapons) permits. It used to be that a person had to have a good reason for getting such a permit - and that more-or-less prevented most people from carrying pistols on the street. Now it seems that anyone can get a CCW permit here in California, and I have the feeling the streets are full of armed vigilantes - although I rarely see evidence that someone is "packing."

And no, it does not make me feel safer to know that gun-toting, "law-abiding" citizens are all around me. I'v lived "out in the sticks" for 16 years now, and I hear gunshots on a regular basis. Occasionally when I'm hiking, it feels like the bullets are a little too close.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 02:07 PM

the thing is, its a bit like prohibition. people enjoy guns. they kill people - just like alcohol does.

re-introducing alcohol gave the economy a boost.

prohibiting guns will surely cause a slump - so many people make a living selling, marketing them, running shooting activities...

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 02:14 PM

Americans love normal. This is normal.

In 2018 we already have 18 school shootings.

The hearts of this Valentines day have gone out, the prayers have been delivered unanswered.

Hearts and prayers are everywhere you turn, lying dead,
with a last bleeding beat and downturned eyes, this too is normal.

do the math; the US has a shooting death rate of 3.7, the UK has .07.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 02:29 PM

All that has changed is the more efficient death rate from the improvements of the guns, clips, bump stocks and strategies found in our gun magazines at our grocery stores. I have a choice of 7-10 different gun magazines at Giant food store.

ooooooo don't touch my 2nd amdt. or you know what I'll do.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: olddude
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 02:41 PM

The problem is even worse, they are pushing a bill through Congress to allow full carry across state lines if you are registered in your state.. Problem is some states if you can breathe you get a carry license. Florida in particular.. Ny state is brutal with the checks on a citizen (which I approve) now some clown would negate our check system by getting one from a loose state.. It's all nuts actually

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 02:43 PM

Hey, Joe - ya need to keep up, buddy:

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2017/oct/03/chris-abele/do-90-americans-support-background-checks-all-gun-/

https://www.npr.org/2017/10/13/557433452/poll-majorities-of-both-parties-favor-increased-gun-restrictions

https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=2492

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/11/gun-control-vegas-polls-243647

http://thehill.com/homenews/360496-poll-majority-of-american-voters-favor-stricter-gun-laws

Maybe you should take it up with all those "good Republicans" in Congress you keep going on about.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 02:45 PM

Problem is some states if you can breathe you get a carry license.

Hell,Dan, in some states you can be in a mental institution or dead and get a carry license.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 02:46 PM

I wonder what the psychology of this young gunman might be? What makes a teenager decide to go out and murder many people in a school?
He'd been expelled, and his behaviour wasn't quite normal. His resentment must have been enormous. I understand the Dunblane killer also acted out of resentment at being refused Scout Leadership.

Mental health issues must surely be key here. And a feeling of rejection, 'not fitting in' and a realisation one is not accepted.
There should be more vigilance about care and counselling for these misfits, and spotting them early.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: olddude
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 03:02 PM

Here the best of all, ya can't get a gun because you are a nut case killer? Go online and get a ghost gun kit. 100 percent legal. You see its not a gun unless it works. The kit is non working with the ten minute instruction on how to make it work.. Takes drilling four or so holes but they have it all marked for you.. Now you have a fully functional non traceable, no serial number glock that works as well as the factory. No bg check of any kind and legal... Fucking nuts.. See why I scream fix the gun laws.. @#@#'##

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: olddude
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 03:04 PM

235 bucks for the kit... Only in America can you see such insanity

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 03:05 PM

Not everybody with mental health issues plans to kill a lot of people. I agree we should pay attention to people with problems, but fundamentally, they shouldn't be able to get guns.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 03:09 PM

I agree Jeri. It's not an 'excuse' but I'm trying to work out the 'reason'. Loner types with a grudge or an obsession with some deeply-held and bizarre belief obviously represent a grave danger to the rest.

Anyone with any red flags against them (criminal convictions, violence, mental health issues, instability, drug addiction etc ) should never be allowed to carry guns.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: olddude
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 03:11 PM

So we sell criminals do it yourself kits that require a simple drill... You can get them for a full functioning ar rifle also.. Not traceable no serial number, no bg check, sold like you wouldbuy a toy.. No state or ffederal laws except for carrying.. Great job Washington

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 03:17 PM

Two nights ago CBS News ran a story on 'ghost guns' unregistered gun kits that can be purchased over the net and assembled at home. No records, no serial numbers. Legal.

This problem is not going away soon.

I'm reminded of two societies that restricted guns many years ago. The Japanese were introduced to firearms in the 16th centry. Book: "Giving up the gun" Japan's Reversion to the Sword . A pivotal battle was fought with firearms and the issue became one of class. With a gun, an untrained peasant could down a highly skilled samurai. This could not be allowed to continue. So a top-down containment was mandated. Not till the, you guessed it, Americans came in the 19th century were firearams reintroduced to Nippon. Interesting side night, some of the 16th century weapons could be converted to 'modern' 19th century ignition systems and were found to be of excellent construction.

The other case I have heard or read about years ago, no research nor references, but when the British incorporated New Zealand into the Empire in the 1840s, the Polynesian natives, the Maoris, obtained firearms, and being of a warrior culture, started using them in their tribal conflicts. Apparently the increased death rate was shocking enough that they held meetings and decided to adopt their own version of arms control.

Why we Americans can't sanely talk about this does not do us credit. Is it because there have not been enough victims? Or there haven't been noteworthy enough victims? Or we believe the Wayne LaPierre contention that it takes "good guys with guns" to defeat the "bad guys with guns" with no reflection that the presence of the guns themselves turns some good guys bad?

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 03:45 PM

Money talks. Gun money talks loud.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 03:54 PM

Malcolm Gladwell three years ago, interesting article:

How School Shootings Catch On

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 04:26 PM

The enemy of live children will dither away on mental health improvements and the cause of gun violence. All the while running out the clock on public memory.

Viet Nam was portrayed every night. It takes replaying school shooting unedited iPhone videos every night. I'm sorry that this is what it takes humans to accomplish psychological change.

my
Public service video
Gun manufactures counting their profits...quick change to actual school shooting footage. ect.

...every night for a minimum 100 days. People with my focused education would agree with me, no matter how daft this seems to the Joes out there.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 04:35 PM

This time this shooting could be a tipping point only if it receives lots help to really change the public memory attention span.

This is my attempt at a solution. There will need to be many more solutions once we actually begin the conversation.

Laws do not change minds . Mental memory conditioning does.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 05:06 PM

And in the meantime, the 'thoughts and prayers' of other gun-nuts and the POTUS will fix everything... ??

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 05:50 PM

https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1823016659

We can do this or we can do better

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 07:00 PM

Well.....

I'm as sad and angry about yesterday's Florida school shooting as anyone else, and I heard quite a bit of last night's coverage. One particular thing stuck in my craw that I have to write about.... One expert commentator was describing the community that has formed, consisting of families, friends, and communities of people who were murdered in mass shootings-- how each new incident is extraordinarily painful, and how the lack of healing is internalized and generationalized. Oh REALLY.

I'm sure that's true because of the generationalized experience of AFRICAN AMERICANS-- duh, white expert!!!!

#ManyThousandsGone

[Several ranting paragraphs deleted]

-----> The next time some brainwashed white person brings up black on black crime, in a deflection about police violence or profiling or 'stand your ground'-- I'm going to redirect via the white on white crime of school shootings they can be so empathetic about... and then redirect that empathy for the families, friends, and communities of the folks I remember at each anniversary of their unjust and unpunished deaths.

How DARE that repetitive injury to Black hearts and psyches go unchanged!!!

So I leave the gun debate in the able hands of the gun control lobby. I'm with you. But my energy remains with eliminating white racism!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 08:32 PM

Interesting connection to the flu epidemic: Apparently the Florida perp's mother died of Flu in November (2017). So the 'alleged' school shooter was taken in by some neighbors.
Maybe we can tie Jenny McCarthy to the events, if Ms. Cruz did not get a flu shot.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 08:38 PM

The freedom to own guns in the US is just one symptom of the democratic deficit in the USA. It derives from the politically-unchallengeable power of the unelected gun lobby. There is also a politically-unchallengeable pro-Israel lobby and a politically-unchallengeable oil/big business lobby. We don't vote for lobbies but we do vote for politicians, so when the latter are cowed by the lobbies and briefed against by them to the point of becoming toast, democracy is in severe disrepute. It's healthy enough when lobby groups vigorously and responsibly challenge politicians, but when they become power-grabbers unto themselves, and actively manipulate and threaten our leaders into submission, there's something badly wrong. That's what has happened apropos of gun ownership in the US. I heard a reporter say that Florida has some of the most liberal gun laws in America. Next minute I heard a Florida politician declaring that Florida will not tolerate this kind of violence. Yeah, right.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 08:40 PM

US, USA, America, US of A. Sorry about the inconsistency.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: olddude
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 08:44 PM

Steve there is a lot of truth in your statement my friend

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: olddude
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 08:50 PM

And with corporations being able to donate so
Much money it is appalling.. Us sportsmen shake our heads they pass gun laws that do nothing yet pat themselves on the back and say look we addressed it.. No law abiding gun owner sportsman wants do it yourself ghost gun kits or carry permits issued to anyone.. Or an unstable 19 year old who was kicked out of school to leagally by an assault rifle ugh

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 08:52 PM

Susan I have come to expect fiction whenever the words 'black culture' comes out of a white mouth. Popular fiction perhaps, but still reconstructed third person fiction based on hearsay and assumptions.

The same goes for the words white culture from a black mouth.

Or even books like Nuances of the Dolphin Language. by Jim Dixon.

If extraterrestrials ever wrote a book about Humans I bet we would all have a laugh.   Except (How to Serve Man)

Just being arrogantly wrong, is racism of sorts but it does not always rise to the level of a deliberate hate.

ps you make me think

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 09:00 PM

One day the work of a professional lobbyist may be a felony criminal bribery conspirator. But today they are still legal.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 09:28 PM

I don't think for one second that lobby groups should be illegal. They should be part of that rich tapestry of democracy, inspiring debate, challenging politicians openly and honestly, making the case for the cause but not leaning on our leaders. That becomes a dangerous subversion of democracy, to be guarded against. It thwarts good, progressive policy-making via the illicit grabbing of power. Standing outside embassies with placards is one thing. Briefing against politicians, as the NRA did against Hillary Clinton, should be indigestible for the American people.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 09:29 PM

Old Dude, I'll tell you how bad it is.

Today in Congress the moment of silence for the dead Florida students WAS CANCELED because they were too busy abolishing the ADA American Disabilities Act - that allow rights to the disabled.

A stand alone law by Senator Grassley to allow sales of all guns to the mentally unstable was signed by Trump. It also makes it illegal for the FBI to track guns sold to the insane.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 09:52 PM

Steve, Organized Government Crime , as you quaintly put it, indeed has a RICH historical tapestry. Reserve legal bribes to your Parliament Politicians and leave our Congress out of it.

It is a self evident truth that bribery and extortion are wrong in a democratic republic.

You are just jaded and accustomed to crime. "Not for a second" indeed.

To belabor my point, Zeus has a rich tapestry regarding rape, and does not see anything wrong with it.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: frogprince
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 10:24 PM

Donuel, you're misrepresenting, or misreading, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 11:37 PM

Steve:

I share some of your frustration regarding the power of lobbies, but the reality is not so much that they are a cabal as that they can guarantee votes and money. I know some of those votes,I've worked with many of them. But the lobbies you mention can be beaten. Obama's administration led an agreement with Iran, flouting the Israel lobby. Limiting offshore drilling may have been a successful challenge to the oil lobby (then again it may not have). Some lobbies lose their relevancy. The gun lobby/ NRA is the product of successful promoting (Wayne LaPierre and his use of powerful words such as "jack-booted thugs" "good guy with a gun"). And a truly American obsession with firearms has been subverted by it. It can be changed, but not overnight.

Don'l, I have no idea of what you mean by meaning or not meaning out of black or white lips. I think it's nonsense of the non-sequitar kind that you do so well. I had a friend who liked to send postcards that read like an alien learning English from a Swahili jokebook. Many of your posts are almost word-for-word like my friend's.

Two-guns Robo

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Hrothgar
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 03:24 AM

Has anybody yet said, "Now, if all the kids in that school had assault rifles, they could have defended themselves."

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 03:56 AM

All done by a 19 year old who apparently used a legally-held rifle.

This in a country where he can't legally buy himself a beer until he's 21. Priorities anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 04:17 AM

"Mental health"
Trump has now used this as a cop-out, saying that they will tackle mental health rather than weapons control
Utterly insane.
Earlier this week I watched an incredibly moving programme about a Jewish Holocaust survivor from Croatia speaking about the mass-murder that was on the rise in Europe "after what happened to us Jews"
This has nothing to do with "mental health" - it is about a shift in society towards an attitude that you can solve your differences with weapons - from governments to individuals
America has the added problem that the sale of personal weapons is big business, just as the West has created a massive industry in the trade of arms - death is now built into our economies as a viable asset to be profited from
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 05:05 AM

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Senoufou - PM
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 03:09 PM

I agree Jeri. It's not an 'excuse' but I'm trying to work out the 'reason'. Loner types with a grudge or an obsession with some deeply-held and bizarre belief obviously represent a grave danger to the rest.

Anyone with any red flags against them (criminal convictions, violence, mental health issues, instability, drug addiction etc ) should never be allowed to carry guns.

That isn't enough. You need laws that make purchasers prove they will never have a red flag against them ever in their lives, and prove that they will never have children that will have a red flag. You need legislation forcing people in possession of a firearm to report to a police station every day to prove they are still in possession. You need to ensure that gun owners never leave their homes in case they are burgled.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 05:35 AM

So if Trump is blaming mental health does that mean that America would find a T-4 programme more palatable than gun control? If you don't know whatT-4 was - look in the history books.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Ed.
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 05:52 AM

Wow, SPB-Cooperator! You do spout a lot of crap.

Go back to blaming Microsoft and Google for your lack of ability to utilise current technology effectively. You're less dangerous there...

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 05:56 AM

That's very true SPB-Cooperator. One could hardly monitor gun-owners throughout their lives. I believe here in UK the licence-holder can have his arrangements inspected by the Police at intervals (in other words, to make sure the locked cabinet is still kept secure, and the ammunition is locked away separately from the firearm) But guns can and do end up in the wrong hands.

However, it's also wise to examine this youngster's mindset, to better understand how all this happened. His father had died a while ago and his mother fairly recently, so he was an orphan. He was behaving oddly and was seriously disturbed judging by his social media postings. With all the publicity awarded to school shootings (naturally) it's a way for an isolate to make his/her point.

Please don't think I'm excusing this evil, I'm not. But there were several warnings about this man which were not addressed.

I wasn't going to post this, but - my uncle (many, many years ago) blew his brains out with a sports gun one morning as his children were getting ready for school. He and my aunt were crack shots in a gun club. The children (my two cousins) ran into the bedroom hearing the explosion and...well, one can imagine. My aunt was arrested for a while as she was a suspect until the children verified that she had been in the kitchen when he pulled the trigger.
No-one ever discovered why he did it, there were no signs of depression and no suicide note. It definitely wasn't an accident.
Guns are terrible things. Guns kill...

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 06:39 AM

Even in the old 'Wild West', there was an unwritten code of honour amongst gunmen. Now it seems there is no honour. Allow a man to possess a gun (or guns) .... you must expect him to use them.... maybe for evil. I am so glad I live in the UK. Although there is a current trend for the nasties to throw acid in peoples faces.... At least our government is doing something about it.... or say they are!.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Iains
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 06:55 AM

There seems to be a feeling that more legislation will take care of the problem. Legislation is ignored by criminals. Sometimes legislation and guidelines are ignored by those responsible for enforcement.
An example:
The Dunblane school massacre took place at Dunblane Primary School near Stirling, Stirlingshire, Scotland, on 13 March 1996, when gunman Thomas Hamilton killed 16 children and one teacher before committing suicide and injuring 15 others.

A CLEAR and unequivocal call for Thomas Hamilton's firearms certificate to be withdrawn was made by a detective sergeant to his superiors almost five years before the Dunblane massacre.
His impassioned, written plea included warnings that Hamilton was an unsavoury and unstable character, was scheming, devious and deceitful - and had an extremely unhealthy interest in boys.
But the Central Scotland Police depute chief constable responsible for signing the certificates and renewals dismissed the plea.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 07:38 AM

The plain fact is that there is not a single good reason why any ordinary citizen should own a firearm. Firearms that are used for legitimate purposes - beyond the police and the armed forces, I can't think of many - should be locked away in places away from home and released to the user by an authorised person only, as is done by the police. Legislating for people who already have guns is useless. There's a chap round here who is employed by local farmers to shoot deer, which have become a major nuisance. He is fully licensed to carry the guns he uses. That seems fine to me. The local farm lads round here go around randomly shooting at rabbits and crows for fun with shotguns. That is not fine.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 07:45 AM

There is new Trump legislation about mentally ill gun buyers
Trump words on gun tragedy ring hollow given past legislation
Rachel Maddow points out that the first significant piece of legislation Donald Trump signed was to give mentally ill people easier access to guns, so his concern that the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School shooter was mentally ill and shouldn't have been allowed a gun doesn't carry much weight
20% into video


I knew I would hear "If it took Nixon to open China it could take Trump to ban AR15s

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 08:46 AM

Steve I think lobbyists and their $ should be illegal - you don't.

There is no misrepresentation or misreading involved.

Its rare when I disagree with you, but when I do I am not being mistaken, elliptical or calling you egotistical.
Oh wait, I do consider you to be egotistic, but in an inoffensive smooth lofty affectionate manner. !:^/

They say silence is consent/agreement. So I silently agree with your other points.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 09:21 AM

I think we may be somewhat at odds when we use the word lobbyist. I agree with you when you say lobbyists and their dollars. There are legitimate ways of putting your message across as a group to politicians and they do not include bribery, threats to withdraw financial backing and briefing against.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 09:29 AM

Has anybody yet said, "Now, if all the kids in that school had assault rifles, they could have defended themselves."

Not as yet in so many words, but wait for it - it WILL come. Several Republicans have come close by recommending that the answer is more guns in schools. No joke.

Legislation is ignored by criminals

I see you're a disciple of Wayne LaPierre, Iains.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 09:35 AM

Oh, yeah, it's already been said.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Iains
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 09:52 AM

No Greg. Some things are self evident. Some are not clever enough to work this out. Is that why you commented?

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 10:17 AM

has anyone seen that tv programme American Guns?

Its about this shop of really skilled gunsmiths who make ornate guns for people with a few thousand dollars to spare.

I can't see these people giving up the guns they've paid so much for.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 10:49 AM

That is one of the fallacies - nobody is asking anybody to give up their guns. We just want them not to shoot people with them.

Now why would that be a problem... oh, maybe because guns are made to shoot people?

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 11:01 AM

It's a mindset thing.

The mindset in the US is that everyone is that people are 'safe' because there are lots of guns. The mindset in the UK is that people are safe because there are very few guns.

US - c.325m population, c.12,000 shooting-deaths p.a.
UK- c. 65m population, c. 70 shooting-deaths p.a.

It's not rocket-science, just simple math and a bit of logic.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 11:09 AM

Not a reason for levity, but I'm reminded of this Song Challenge

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 11:15 AM

Thanks Iains we needed the skewed disruptive Russian POV.
You don't know the jeopardy you face in becoming the ire of an enraged mother who has lost a child to a legislative shooting of their child.
Live and learn, die and forget it all, easy come easy go.

20% into video
Here is your Trump Grassley legislation.

That law Trump signed is tantamount to murder.

Iains beware Greg. He is more than your polar opposite. After all you are an active Trump supporter and you will learn like many in Congress will learn that co conspiracy can even lead to Conspiracy murder. You better know the law regarding murder and causation before you further commit to Trump in any way.
You may find an ocean is not the barrier you think it is.

Take a free law lesson on me;

INTENT is key to Felony Murder. Failure to prove intent may be what saves Trumps hide or possibly your own. Or Intent may be what finds co conspirators guilty.

Under the felony murder rule if D is committing a felony and accidentally kills an individual, the killing will be deemed a murder. The justification for the felony murder rule is that the defendant had the requisite intent to commit the felony and thus should be liable for the natural consequences of his actions. Thus, his intent to commit the felony transfers automatically to the murder.

Although the felony murder rule varies greatly from one jurisdiction to another, most courts have limited the application of the rule to serious or inherently dangerous felonies such as arson, assault, burglary, kidnapping, rape, and robbery. In other jurisdictions the court may examine the facts of each case to determine if the felony was actually dangerous. The rationale behind this approach is that a defendant should only be liable for the natural and probable consequences of his actions. Other courts might use a foreseeability standard.

Causality
Direct Causation - Defendant's gun on 5th Avenue accidentally shoots and kills victim during a botched street crossing attempt. Here, the defendant's bullet is both the "but for" cause and the "proximate cause" of the victim's death.

Indirect Causation - During extortion attempt, victim fires at defendant, accidentally killing a police officer who arrived at the scene. Some courts would hold that the defendant is guilty of felony murder, even through the defendant did not fire the fatal bullet.

So Iains have you anything to say regarding the intent of your remarks? Weigh your words carefully. Perhaps you have already said some regretful things.

This Republican Congress will hang together or hang separately along with co conspirators but it is still too soon to say who and how much.

What you think is fair is different in real courts but don't let me confuse you, just go right ahead with your willy nilly comments about the cost of freedom and why you say what you do. You're just having fun Right?

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 02:59 PM

My hypothetical murder indictment was in the style of David Kelly of Boston Legal fame.
I know a case of this sort would find no standing except in Broward County Florida.
First of all the charges would have to be a denial of civil rights to have a prayer.
If we only could indict politicians and CEO's for indirect causation felony murder.
But times they are a'changin.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 03:07 PM

Becoming the focus of the ire of an enraged distraught mother or father and their supporters is a terrible place to be, so mind your words Iains.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 04:41 PM

From today's Guardian.

In 2017, the NRA spent at least $4.1m on lobbying. In the 2016 US elections, it spent $14.4m supporting 44 candidates who won, and $34.4m opposing 19 who lost, according to CRP. But "the real source of its power comes from voters", said Adam Winkler, a UCLA professor of constitutional law. The 145-year-old organisation claims 5 million active members and Prof Robert Spitzer of the State University of New York at Cortland said it has "a very powerful ability to mobilise a grassroots support"

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: bobad
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 05:11 PM

This isn't a mental health issue, every country has mentally ill people. The US is the only country that arms them.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Iains
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 06:25 PM

Donuel.The problem goes way beyond possession of firearms. What other country would turn a blind eye to 1100 deaths caused by police shootings last year. How reliable those figures are I have no way of telling. To an outsider it indicates a very violent society.

In 2016 7100 were killed by handguns
3000 by firearms type not stated
1600 by cutting instruments or knives
400 by hammers and clubs
600 by rifles and shotguns.

Superficially a complete ban on handguns would seem sensible.
banning knives beyond a specified blade length in a public place
A complete ban on automatic/semi automatic weapons.
Restricting the magazine size of rifles.
Stringent regulations covering ownership and storage of weapons.
Since the turn of the century 9 males between 14 and 15 have shot and killed people in schools. For thus to happen the controls must be inadequate.
   Trying to weed out lunatics will never be 100% efficient. Banning guns only has impact on the good guys. The solution to me would seem to be along the lines of security(gun safes bolted down) and far tighter controls on having firearms in a public place.
   If a person needs to jump through hoops for a car license it would follow that as a gun is potentially far more dangerous then the jumps and hoops for ownership should be of a far greater magnitude.
The second amendment may allow the bearing of arms but cannot society insist that those wishing to bear arms clearly demonstrate that they are fit and proper persons to have this right? Does society not have rights as well?

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 06:36 PM

Lets all say

"THANK YOU REPUBLICAN PARTY AND YOUR CONGRESSIONAL REPRESENTATIVES"

Repeat as necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 07:33 PM

Iains I daresay dead kids at school, as you say, goes beyond the possession of firearms. I never said anything about possession of anything. That is your straw man tat you argue about on your own.
That is your deliberate attempt at intentional discord.

I wrote about legislated legal sales of AR15s to the mentally ill and conspiracy to felony murder lawsuits and how causality may include indirectly even people like yourself all the way to those directly involved.
By including charges as low as 2nd degree manslaughter we could even prosecute gun makers with culpability for the death of children.

Do not address me with your fake claims regarding my actual post again.
It reminds me of what Russian bots do.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 03:45 AM

be careful getting off that horse. You might hurt yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 11:38 AM

Speaking of not hurting yourself, you should realize your VPN# will provide no masking or diversion any longer.

Today I informed the manager of a supermarket that I was performing a simple act of civil disobedience. After requesting for 2 years that they stop ordering the huge quantity and variety of AR 15 magazines. Some I understand... but 100 kios a month! compared to 2 kilos of science magazines is excessive. Loading a cart with 1/2 the gun mags , I parked it at the exit and I hide the others throughout the store. I asked him to take what ever action he could because I will continue to be a thorn. As for the now Russian owned Enquirer mag, I removed the covers. I will escalate with signs at other chain stores and eventually arrest and media attention to equate Giant with supporting mass shooters. The gun manufactures and NRA currently enjoy a massive distribution of their expensive gun ordering mags in food stores across the country, usually next to the children books/

The maximum goal is too keep the extreme gun violence promoting wish books (these are not hunting magazines) far away from kids, schools and food shoppers in our country. Today I planted an acorn.

I'll take a high horse over being low down even in trivial matters Iains.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Iains
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 12:28 PM

Donuel I cannot see what your problem is. I suggest you read my post again. Your legislation concerning automatic/semi automatic weapons varies between states and is shambolic. Why would any civilian need a semiautomatic weapon anyway? The most dangerous animal in the US for causing fatalities is the whitetail deer.(check it!) You certainly do not need a semi automatic for hunting that. There are many steps that could be taken to reduce the wide variety of weapons and many steps that could be taken to make those weapons in circulation more secure. Other countries allow weapons but do not have problems on the scale of the US.
Perhaps the society need to be transformed as well as the gun law legislation.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 01:34 PM

A changing culture is always chasing old habits until it catches up to old habits and bites it in the ass. The change in habits and culture look rapid but the chase and bite took a long time.

Change is said to be incremental but it always needs that big substantial bite to make it happen. One correct change in gun policy doesn't even deserve partial credit.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 05:24 PM

VP Pence is dealing with serious mental illness
to eliminate gun violence .

He has made a small change to this old canard;

"guns don't kill people, the mentally ill kill".


does that mean we should still kill the mentally ill
until we've had our fill of no frill thrill kills
with our beloved
AR
15
?

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 07:51 AM

We have this debate with monotonous regularity. The fact is that America as a society seems to be content with this state of affairs and willing to accept a high death rate. The rest of the world finds this utterly baffling. Of course a considerable number of Americans feel the same, but apparently not enough to swing the balance.

Among the reasons given for needing guns are that many Americans live in remote areas, a long way from law enforcement and among dangerous animals, and also that there is a culture of hunting for both sport and food. All good reasons, but ones which apply equally to Canada which nevertheless manages to have gun control and a much lower homicide rate.

The one I find really puzzling is that despite Americans being justifiably proud of their system of constitutional democracy they feel the need to arm themselves against their own government.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 08:58 AM

Howard, the USA is in the midst of losing its constitutional democracy to a policy of "money talks and the will of 90% of the American people walks"

The monotony you reference serves the NRA, not the future victims of gun violence. The United States of Amnesia is a result of the natural function of the human brain and programing. There are means to reverse that but folks here hesitate to believe it.

Armed resistance against the Government has always been a fringe hate group phenomena but Trump has emboldened them. Criminals like Trump are brainwashing the public to see law enforcement, like the FBI, as the real criminal enemy.

|||| I say we future victims should become as Creative, Innovative fresh and competitive As the NRA .||||

EXAMPLE
Did you know the NRA is selling murder insurance if you shoot someone?


Why implement better laws to regulate guns when someone can shoot first and show their "murder insurance" card later?

The NRA is thinking ahead, so should we. We are fighting for our lives, they at fighting for money. We should b twice as clever.


Info Guns Down America / www.youtube.com
The NRA-backed insurance policy will be sold by Lockton Affinity and will be underwritten by insurance giant Chubb. According to the NRA’s website, the insurance will cover the upfront lawyer fees attached to both civilian lawsuits and criminal charges of the policy holder. It will pay for "bail, bonds, legal retainer fees, and legal referrals." It also offers "payment for the lawful replacement of your seized firearm, property restoration for your primary residence, loss of earning while in court and psychological support."


There are currently four plans that gun owners can choose from — Bronze, Silver, Gold, and Gold Plus — which range from $250,000 to $1 million for civil defense and $50,000 to $250,000 for criminal charges. The website also featured a video of radio host and NRA spokesperson Dana Loesch saying, "The truth is, right behind your firearm, your second most important self-defense protection is a rock-solid carry policy."

If you think about exactly what the NRA has birthed through its partnership with Lockton Affinity and Chubb, it's infuriating.
Offering this type of insurance policy will not only make it easier for "stand your ground" shooters to settle and even win the lawsuits they may face, but it could reasonably stand to embolden gun holders to shoot first and think later.

At least, that is the belief of Guns Down America, a "bolder, broader movement calling for dramatically fewer guns in America." The group released a video last week featuring Sybrina Fulton, mother of Trayvon Martin, describing anyone needing to purchase the insurance as the real problem in their communities, and a danger to people like her son, who was fatally shot in Florida by a self-proclaimed vigilante who escaped a prison sentence because of Florida's "stand your ground" law.



"Armed intimidators roam our communities. They wave their guns like children playing dress-up, barking threats and upsetting the peace. They insist they should be allowed to bring their guns everywhere, into our schools, our parks, and even our churches and schools.

The most striking point is that the NRA spends millions of dollars to lobby for laws that allow them to "stand their ground."

"That just makes it easier to get away with murder," she says. "Now they’re selling insurance that covers the cost."

Almost 2,000 people have been injured and nearly 900 killed by gun violence in the U.S. since the deadly Las Vegas shooting at the beginning of October.

According to Everytown's statistics on gun violence in the United States, there are nearly 12,000 gun homicides a year. On average, 93 Americans are killed with guns each day; 50 women are shot to death by intimate partners each month; and black men are 14 times more likely than white men to be shot and killed with guns.

"The reason I call it murder insurance is because if you look at the way this is marketed, it’s really sold in the context of 'There's a threat around every corner, dear mostly-white NRA member,' and that threat is either a black man or a brown man or some other kind of person of color," said Guns Down director Igor Volsky.

Trayvon Martin was just one of the many black men and women who’ve been murdered in the last few years by people claiming self-defense. Millions watched Philando Castile die in his car in front of his daughter and girlfriend during a Facebook live stream after he was shot by a police officer. Clarence Daniels walked into a Florida Walmart only to be tackled by a white man who just assumed he was up to no good. Alton Sterling was shot dead by police in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, while pinned face-down on the pavement, his gun in his pocket. Mike Brown was shot in Ferguson after being accused of stealing a pack of cigarillos.


In an effort to have the Carry Guard insurance tossed out, Guns Down America is encouraging viewers to contact Lockton Affinity and Chubb and insist that the coverage be pulled. The group also took one step further by creating a petition that reads, "We fear that your insurance product for gun owners who shoot first and claim 'self-defense' later will contribute to this devastation and encourage more people to use deadly force.”


Have you signed this petition urging insurers @Chubb & @lockton to stop selling @NRA's #murderinsurance? http://stopmurderinsurance.org

STOP MURDER INSURANCE
Tell Chubb and Lockton to cut their ties with the NRA and Stop Selling Murder Insurance.

stopmurderinsurance.org

"I’m an American — it’s time to put the guns down," Fulton says in the video. And while we whole-heartedly agree, it’s clear not everyone feels the same. While neither Lockton Affinity nor Chubb have yet issued an official statement, we do hope they’ll see the light sooner rather than later, although statistically, that’s unlikely to happen before the next preventable gun-related tragedy occurs.

Obama's response to the Florida shooting is exactly what Trump *should* have said

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 09:04 AM

There are 2 potential tourists in our house who will NEVER set foot in the usa again thank you very much, and I dare say many others!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 11:08 AM

Some survivors might say the US is safe to visit
but they are still alive and as-so are probably biased.

Our Republican lawmakers did this which is tantamount to murder; give mentally ill AR 15s law

then the Senator talks about giving mentally ill names to an FBI database while his law did the opposite. (such a clever duo faced politician)

You can bet the Russian enhanced digital socialmedia (REDS) is on the side of the NRA.

This 2018 election the suburban mothers will speak in one voice against guns.

Those who are rural or identify their strength and confidence with their AR 15s collection will give money to the NRA like never before.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 12:50 PM

As a Christian, I have prayed often for peoples losses of family or friends through violence, including those where people are cruelly shot. I would rather be praying for the people who have lost their guns than those who have lost family and friends....... Take guns.. NOT lives!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: peteglasgow
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 01:44 PM

'pray for people who have lost their guns'? could anyone tell me how much it might cost in medical fees if you are shot and injured in school? who would the victims sue? i hear there is talk of a school strike in the usa until congress can pass meaningful legislation on gun control. seems a very positive idea to me - young people could learn some very valuable lessons on the picket line

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Tunesmith
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 03:02 PM

Well, Gore Vidal once said that all American Presidents - on the way to the White House - are bought and sold a number of times by powerful groups.
And, of course, it would appear the NRA have bought Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 04:02 PM

That was exactly my point, Tunesmith. The trouble is that the yanks somehow think they live in a democratic land of the free.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 04:21 PM

"The trouble is that the yanks somehow think they live in a democratic land of the free."
Spreading that sort of negative message merely reinforces, for some, the need for the second amendment.
Rather counterproductive I would have thought.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 04:21 PM

Lobbying on the Senate floor with cold hard cash packets prior to voting was practiced by Boehner, the previous Speaker of the House.

There is much truth there my friend.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Thompson
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 04:30 PM

What needs to change isn't the law on guns. It's Americans' baffling desire to own the nasty things.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 04:35 PM

"The problem goes way beyond possession of firearms. What other country would turn a blind eye to 1100 deaths caused by police shootings last year. How reliable those figures are I have no way of telling. To an outsider it indicates a very violent society."

So that isn't a "negative message" then, Iains? It isn't "counter-productive" to tell it as we see it. It's a good, honest starting point for discussing what we can do about it. So stop being a complete arse.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 05:16 PM

Personally I would have thought any suggestion that American Democracy was suspect would make the case for possessing arms. The aim of most contributing here is to drastically reduce the number of arms in circulation.
1100 alleged deaths by police shootings would seem a very different issue to me. There is obviously a problem with the recruitment and enforcement of acceptable behaviour. Uniformed thugs with guns springs to mind. Undoubtedly a minority, but enough to taint all.
Nothing to do with civilian possession of arms.
The case with the police in the uk is different but there are numerous armed police(especially noticable in airports)
The Police Service of Northern Ireland (formerly the Royal Ulster Constabulary), Northern Ireland Security Guard Service, Ministry of Defence Police, Civil Nuclear Constabulary, Belfast Harbour Police, Belfast International Airport Constabulary, and most of the Specialist Operations units of the Metropolitan Police are all issued firearms as a matter of routine. Every force also has a Force firearms unit, with armed response vehicles.

In the US there are around 800k law enforcement officers.In the UK about a quarter of that number. Last year in the UK 5 people were killed by the police. That is a huge difference and takes some explaining.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 05:32 PM

So what's your point? In this country every police officer who carries a gun has been through intensive training and has had to sign out and sign back in the gun every single time. It has diddly-squat to do with what's happening in the US. Discussing a democratic deficit is generally a discussion of what's to be done about it, not an acceptance of arming civilians. You dredge up ridiculous arguments just for the sake of it. You really haven't got a clue about any of this and you are singularly unable to focus.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 05:59 PM

The old point that America is an open society so we need more guns more private prisons moor/more police is a terrible racist conclusion.
But now terrorists bolster that conclusion even though we make it legal for terrorists to buy guns but not plane tickets.

This Sunday the American Church of the Firearm has 3 holy readings from the book of the NRA: Colt:45, AK 47 and M 16

Church attendance is down however due to all the funerals.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 06:22 PM

INTERMISSION

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 10:43 PM

Trump and Pence both made strong statement about the need to control people with mental health problems. It was very noticeable that they made no statement about guns at all, and seemed to be trying very hard to divert the discussion away from any talk of gun control or a ban on assault weapons.

And then there's Trump's silly claim that the FBI is wasting time on investigating the Trump Administration, implying that was what made the FBI miss the two advance clues about the shooter. I'm sure those investigating the Trump corruption, are people who would have nothing to do with tracking the high school shooter.

Newspaper reports say Trump plans to hold a "listening session" with students from the high school on Wednesday. The students have been quite militant about demanding gun control. I wonder if there's any chance Trump will listen to them.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: olddude
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 11:55 PM

It's no secret I do competition shooting, I also hunt and trek in dangerous bear Country. But I think our laws are insane. Every state should have ny restrictions. No Fucking assault weapons period. And fix the loopholes, full fbi and bg check for even hunting and maybe some difference will occur. However, don't hold
your breath

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: olddude
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 12:14 AM

The only reason for owning an assault rifle is to kill people, they have little use for hunting and not good at all for competition shooting.. Excellent for killing people.. Ugh

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 02:22 AM

Thanks for that, Dan. Most of us who have served in the U.S. military have used an M-16, the automatic version of the semi-automatic civilian AR-15. These guns aren't much good for hunting, because hunters want to be concealed and shoot from a greater distance and with greater accuracy.
The M-16 and AR-15 are built for combat - mostly for killing people at a relatively short distance. Hunters have no need for them, and even target shooters would be better off with single-shot rifles with better accuracy.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Iains
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 05:18 AM

Shaw I know you like to stalk and comment on my every post to try to show what a clever little shit you are. However you are trying to wreck a very serious thread on a very major issue.

My point of introducing the disparity between police killings in the US and UK is that American society shows no outrage over the statistics.
If the kill tatio in the UK was the same, government would fall, I am sure. The resulting furore would make the ban the bomb marches a total insignificance in comparison.
There are major differencse between the two societies and gun control
attitudes are but one of them. The US has always had guns and changing attitudes will not occur overnight. The link between smoking, cancer and inflicting the smoke on others took 60 years before a ban on public smoking in confined or designated areas became common.
   The right to gun ownership is enshrined in American Law.
Realistically overturning this right will not occur overnight. More security, more vetting, more restriction on gun type allowable, all these things most would accept, and more importantly, recognize the necessity. Over time perhaps a ban could be achieved, with broad acceptance by the vast majority.
   As a total outsider with less than a year in the States, it seems to me that the attitude of society towards weapons needs to be changed. This needs to occur in tandem with progressively tighter controls. Should guns be hung on a rack in a pickup or inside a secured container bolted to the bed?

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 06:06 AM

Stigmatizing people with mental health problems as the cause of gun violence is incredibly foul, kicking people when they are down and can't kick back.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 07:31 AM

Stigmatizing people with mental health problems as the cause of gun violence is incredibly foul, kicking people when they are down and can't kick back.
Unfortunately some of them can, and do, kick back. And if they possess firearms it can be horrifying.

That is not to say that mental health is the sole, or main, reason for US gun death statistics.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 07:55 AM

Whatever the truth of it, one thing is certain - Americans have to sort this out.

I suppose there are some people saying it doesn't need sorting out and all those gun deaths are acceptable price to pay for the right to bear arms.

I think Americans probably resent our commenting. I can't blame them.We have stuff wrong with our country. I don't we'd like them giving simplistic answers to complex problems.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 09:07 AM

Nigel: "That is not to say that mental health is the sole, or main, reason for US gun death statistics."

I think we're using two different conceptions of mental illness: I'm thinking of the people I see on the street mumbling their conversations with the deity or whomever, not narcissists with anger management issues who slay their faithless spouse, their children, and then themselves.

The former poor souls have enough trouble tying their shoes, much less getting the money together, making the necessary connections to purchase a weapon and ammunition, and planning and carrying out the deed.

Generally, the mentally ill are much more likely to be victims of violence--by "normal" people --than vice versa.

Unless one wants to stipulate "Anyone who would kill a bunch of people is by definition deranged," even the sane mass murderers outnumber the psychos: Tim McVeigh, Dylan Roof, Syed Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik, the 9/11 pilots--they had clearly thought-out reasons for what they did, planned it (more or less) soundly, and carried it out successfully.

Even Nikolas Cruz--I will lay odds there are people walking amongst us who are clinically way further off the beam and absolutely non-violent, while there are others who are much more stable who will kill a bunch of people sooner or later.

Scapegoating the putative violent psychotic is a practice with a long history. It lets everyone off the hook; it dehumanizes the problem by laying it on a perceived non-person.

Nigel, I don't think we really disagree, and I apologize for the rant, but when the eminently sane Donald Trump starts . . . . oh, I can't go on.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 09:19 AM

but when the eminently sane Donald Trump starts
yes, and Corporal Nobby Nobbs (Discworld) has a letter signed by the patrician confirming he's human.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 09:47 AM

I think Jackaroodave makes sense.
The people I've heard about doing the shootings weren't mentally ill. They weren't depressed, or bi-polar, or schizophrenic, or anything we're used to thinking of as mentally ill.
They might very well be psychopaths, or regular folks who just "snapped". I don't know enough to be aware of the criteria, but there are undoubtedly experts who would know what to look for.

And average citizens shouldn't have assault weapons, period.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 10:42 AM

And now President Shithole - when he can tear himself away from twatting, is quizzing his Mar-A-Lago customers anbout whether he should support gun control......

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 11:54 AM

Years have passed, even decades, are spent trying to profile the shooter. What shooters share is basically feelings of anger and unfairness combined with an obsession with guns. Otherwise shooters can appear to be normal all the way to obviously deranged.

That one factor about an obsession, yeah that one, it kind of stands out doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: leeneia
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 12:36 PM

It would be interesting to know what drug and alcohol tests of Nikolas Cruz showed.
============
Here's one thing we could all do. Stop making anti-heroes of them. They crave publicity. Most of Cruz's victims were freshmen girls - the smallest, most vulnerable kids in the school. As a former senior in a large school, he had probably never even met any of them.

Why not point out his cowardice, his immaturity, his school-boy meanness? He was probably a reluctant virgin; mention that as well.
If enough people did this, foolish boys might stop thinking that the mass shooter earns the world's attention.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 01:04 PM

Sex shaming falls into the causative category of shootings with feelings of anger and unfairness leenia. Feelings of retribution against shooters are perfectly normal, especially in mobs. I would still agree shooters deserve a badge of dishonor that outweighs the badge of notorious rage and vengeance.

Sex is a ccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc - 366666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666mycat
didthat+++++++

factor in murder.

There are many false dead end factors in causing shooters to go ballistic like; video games, peaceful drugs, rock and roll, heavy metal etc.
They all rank up there with 'guns don't kill people' as NRA lies go.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 03:24 PM

Now is not the time to
talk about your murder !

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: leeneia
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 04:35 PM

1. A letter to the editor in my newspaper today wonders if Russia is supporting the NRA. Another interesting idea.

2. The family that was giving Nikolas Cruz a home says that he could not do laundry or operate a microwave. Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

Not that I am excusing him, but it makes me think that we are far from seeing the whole picture at this point.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 05:21 PM

From: Donuel - PM
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 11:08 AM

You can bet the Russian enhanced digital socialmedia (REDS) is on the side of the NRA.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: olddude
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 05:43 PM

The Russians have a great business making ak-47s for the US... Bet they are big supporters

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 06:00 PM

One is allowed to buy 33 AR15s per month which is needed for collectors and gun runners. In an effort to maximize sales there is a version of AR15s that snap together in groups of 4,6 and 8 in single or double stacked configurations.

"The special waave automatic trigger pulls only one trigger at a time in blindingly fast Gatling gun fashion. It mounts on a convenient sturdy duo axis swivel mount.
The balance and aiming response is effortless from a stationary blind or urban location. While no two weapons fire simultaneously there is no significant increased recoil. It is like having 8 simultaneous bump stocks in real time.
ALL YOU DO IS AIM, the waave trigger function is finger print proof and enjoys an electric push start and stop button." They even hav an attachment if you are handicapped- wavev2.com/index?route-beabea10ms21hlltouchless_trigger-XoUeAS

Waave goodbye to your targets.
For all your mass shooting needs there is nothing better than 'The Waave' unless you have twin 50 cals..ha ha ha.


The gun manufacturer world is a strange and threatening place.
Where there is a will, there is a way.
Have you the will to stop the madness?

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 08:02 AM

This from todays Portland [Maine, US] Press Herald:

'Suzanne Hanvey may be "just" a freshman, but she isn't waiting around for adults to figure out what to do in the wake of Florida's deadly school shooting.

She and students attending at least five Maine high schools plan on walking out of school for 17 minutes on March 14, one minute for each person who died last week. It's part of a nationwide student-led series of protests, spurred by the passionate calls for gun control from student survivors of the mass shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida.

"I want change now," said Hanvey, a 14-year-old who attends Thornton Academy in Saco. "I'm not going to wait for it. I'm not going to wait for some adult to make change."'
=========================================================

As in other progressive movements, young people are taking the lead.

I would not be surprised if candidates in even moderately red districts can gain state or national office by running against the NRA and their lap-dogs:

"My folks taught me to shoot when I was X years old, and I've owned a gun ever since. I've spent hours with my own kids teaching them gun safety, and I want them to grow up to teach their kids, not get mowed down by some jerk with an assault rifle. Like a lot of us, and unlike my opponent, I think it's high time we started putting the safety of our children ahead of the profits of the gun companies.

"I own a blah-blah-blah deer rifle, which I bought after a background check, and which I keep locked away from my kids. I don't own an assault rifle because I don't kill people. But every fall, in the deer season I go out, and when I know I have a clean shot, I bag my buck and bring it home for my family to eat.

I never go out on the first day of the season, because that's when any fool who can buy a gun is out there blasting away at anything that moves. No training, no skill, and no sense. Like a lot of us, I'm outraged that it's easier to buy a gun than get a driver's license.

I used to belong to the NRA, but, unlike my opponent, I quit when they stopped supporting responsible ownership and became paid stooges for the gun companies.

Putting gun profits ahead of our kids is disgusting, and it has to stop. Now."

Something like that, only not so windy and not scrawled on the back of an e-envelope. It would be a second step.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 08:45 AM

Virtually all the High schools in DC and Montgomery county are having a walk out at 10AM today. The mega high schools of Richard Montgomery, Georgetown and more, are going to the nation's capitol to demonstrate their sentiment.

The Florida legislature did pass a gun control law yesterday by making it illegal to pass any legislation against AR15s.
State Representatives smirked and laughed as kids cried.



I too used to shoot up until a fellow student acquaintance propped his gun against a barb wire fence when it went off, removing all trace of his being a male.

Russian bots are busily calling Florida Parkland high school students actors for the left to ban all guns.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 11:47 AM

DEAD CHILDREN ARE THE PRICE OF FREEDOM

The new N.R.A. motto. Wait for it.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 12:03 PM

The Republican mindset: you just can't make this shit up:

An aide to a Florida legislator claimed that two survivors of the mass shooting at a Parkland high school were ?actors? and not really students, echoing a conspiracy theory that has gained traction on social media following the deadly attack.

In his note, Kelly claimed that Emma Gonzalez and David Hogg, students at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, were actually ?actors that travel to various crisis when they happen.?

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 01:01 PM

Greg, that sounds like terminal flop sweat to me.

If I were a parent worried about my kid, whatever my politics, that sort of nonsense would be absolutely counterproductive.

As we've seen, it's very easy for a few dedicated automata to create a striking web presence, with a heavy proportional endorsement, but it doesn't necessarily mean anyone's mind is changed by it.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 01:25 PM

a few dedicated automata to create a striking web presence, with a heavy proportional endorsement, but it doesn't necessarily mean anyone's mind is changed by it. [Emphasis mine]

I think that Robt. Mueller investigating Russian interference, might beg to differ    ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 02:19 PM

Yes and no Greg.

   1 good lie can be taken up by 30K more trolls just to be vengeful and diabolically argumentative whether or not they themselves believe it.
Then there are the unwitting who really are believers.

The kryptonite to a democratic democracy is simply a loss of trust;
in one another our institutions and our collective reasoning.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 03:50 PM

"I think that Robt. Mueller investigating Russian interference, might beg to differ    ;>)"

Mueller and I wouldn't differ about the criminality of the interference and the need to nail the perpetrators.. I have no idea whether we'd differ about the effect of it. To my mind, the gerrymandering engineered by the founding fathers (sic), and its extension up to the present, played a role in Clinton's defeat more important by an order of magnitude.

But this is drifting.

I have no basis for this, other than my feelings, and my recollection of what happened before when students across the nation started walking out, but it seems that the circumstances are just right for a precipitating action like the response of the students at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School. I feel something has changed:

Support for stricter gun control legislation was already at an all time high. Also, significantly, in 2014, I believe, US homicides hit their lowest point since the mid-60s. There's been a slight uptick since then, but NO ONE wants to go back to where it was 15-20 years ago. The fear of loss is always stronger than the hope for gain, so the fact that gun homicides are at a relatively low point actually improves the prospects for meaningful legislation.

I think that people will now be more receptive to other facts: the plague of gun suicides, double the gun homicide rate, the smaller but still unacceptable accident rate, and beyond the various deaths, the immense physical and mental damage resulting from non-fatal injuries. Before, those non-homicides didn't seem to carry much weight. Libertarian gun ADVOCATES made the point that most gun deaths were suicides, a matter of individual choice, of our precious liberties. if you will.

I don't think that will fly anymore.

Maybe I'm just delusional; maybe even if there is a groundswell, it won't affect legislation nationally. But it feels very different, thanks to those students and the real, not robo, response to it.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 05:18 PM

By all means drift. Its refreshingly true.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm just sayin
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 08:06 PM

There comes a time
When guns have killed enough
When the kids must come together as o
There are people dying
Oh, and it's time to lend a hand to life
The greatest gift of all

We can't go on
Pretending day-by-day
That someone, isn't planning to shoot us
We're all a part of life's great mystery
And the truth, you know, love is all we need

We are the kids
We are the parents
We are the ones who choose a better life, so please stop shooting
There's a choice we're making
We're saving our own lives
It's true we'll live a better life, for you and me

send them some hope
So we'll know we won't be murdered
And our lives will be stronger and free
As the world has shown us turning guns to bikes
And so we all must pass a helpful law

We are the world
We are the children
We are the ones who make a brighter day, so let's start giving
Oh, there's a choice we're making
We're saving our own lives
It's true we'll make a better day, just you and me

When you're down and out, there seems no hope at all
without AR 15s we won't be shot and fall
Well, well, well, well let us realize
Oh, that a change can only come
When we stand together as your kids and parents.

We are the kids
We are the parents
We are the ones who choose a better life, so please stop shooting
There's a choice we're making
We're saving our own lives
It's true we'll live a better life, for you and me

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 09:16 AM

I can't find the article now but it was about the real issue being "toxic masculinity" and the idea that it's not just OK but *right* to shoot people who bother you if you're a *real* man.

More men own guns, more women have mental illnesses, more men do the shooting, why is it mental health?

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 09:20 AM

Did I really hear that Trump has suggested arming each teacher.

Guns are a problem, so lets issue more guns to solve it ?????

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 09:25 AM

Mrrzy: "why is it mental health?"

Good question, Mrrzy.

I think it has something to do with power and profits, and the difference in possible responses;

"If you say people like me are responsible for gun violence, I get even more withdrawn and depressed."

vs

"If you say people like me are responsible for gun violence, I'll shoot you."

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 09:45 AM

That, Jack, is a good editorial cartoon.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 10:28 AM

Right. Toxic. Masculinity?

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 12:55 PM

Did I really hear that Trump has suggested arming each teacher.

Absolutely, yes!

That's been the NRA position for some time. President Shithole is just saying what he's been told to say.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 04:30 PM

Just remember, kids, this can't be said often enough:

"Guns don't kill people. People kill people.



Guns just make it really, really EASY!"

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 04:56 PM

But Principal Skinner, I would swear on a sack of bibles I set the safety to off...

B A R T !

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 04:57 PM

Imagine a country so fucked up, the idea of a teacher carrying a gun in school is actually an idea!

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 05:03 PM

YaHooo It must have been timing but my crusade for Giant Food stores to stop selling GUN MAGAZINES has worked. They no longer sell gun catalogs, books and magazines.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 05:13 PM

"Imagine a country so fucked up, the idea of a teacher carrying a gun in school is actually an idea!"

Well it was Trump's um utterance Bonzo, so maybe you're giving it too much credit by calling it an idea.

I have to admit, the image of my 7th grade English teacher, Miss Pincus, holstering a .45 on her immense right hip gave me a hollow laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 05:21 PM

"YaHooo It must have been timing but my crusade for Giant Food stores to stop selling GUN MAGAZINES has worked."

Take your bow, Donuel, it's a positive feedback mechanism. Your act helps create the timing for the next one.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 07:29 PM

it is amazing to hear these young people expressing so clearly and passionately how to change their society and the warped attitudes that are the very reason for the appalling massacres that continue to happen.
That schools in America have 'gun drills' in the way we (Scotland) have fire drills leaves me gobsmacked.
The young are a tide of change arising and I hope will continue to sweep away the dinosaurs of the past and make a new community of their country.
It feels like what was happening in the '60s and '70s with ending the Vietnam war, marching and singing against nuclear weapons, the movement for racial equality with Martin Luther King, boycotting South Africa / apartheid, the rise of feminism /women's liberation and so many more causes.
Wonderful songs, speeches and alas sacrifices - I hope so much this generation of the young will go down in history for what they are doing, what they will achieve!

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Thompson
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 04:12 AM

Have to agree with leeneia. The bizarre American practice of bringing people (presumed innocent?) to court chained up and in weird orange prison coveralls has become a way for them to appear heroic to would-be teen rebels.
Courts should be calm, and people should be normally dressed when appearing before them.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 05:01 AM

"Imagine a country so fucked up, the idea of a teacher carrying a gun in school is actually an idea!"

Anywhere else it would be deranged, but if you can not get rid of the guns it is a pragmatic if desperate way to reduce the carnage in schools.

Obama promised to solve the gun problem after Sandy Hook but found it impossible.
Do you expect Trump to succeed where he failed?

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 05:22 AM

Trump is excelling himself in trying to turn America into a cesspit - talking about teachers shooting the hell out of people. Makes me want to vomit, and I hope you never imposed that revolting piece of filth on this country, and you will keep your excrement to yourself. Trump is a piece of garbage - anyone in the UK who wants to allow trump to come here or votes for someone who wants to allow trump here is garbage too.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 07:04 AM

Kieth,at least you chose the correct gun thread for your opinion.

I feel a definite difference this time on a visceral level.
Many Huge Corporations and private businesses are boycotting the NRA and its promotions. The list is growing.


ps the orange jump suit in jail signifies the prisoner is accused of a violent crime. Blue jump suits are for victimless crimes.

In court it may be impractical to wear nice outfits and perky sweaters at arraignment. Later you can wear what you think besy.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 07:50 AM

No, all prisoners in our jails wear orange, it is the only color.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: keberoxu
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 02:46 PM

Has anyone asked Frank Hall for his opinion?
Remember Frank Hall?
His story was the cover story for an issue of Sports Illustrated magazine.
Sports Illustrated went back to Frank Hall for an update
after Parkland, Florida;
he made history at Chardon High School, Ohio, some six years ago.

"They can't let evil win"

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 02:57 PM

good post keb


Orange Alert
When did prisoners start dressing in orange?
By Christopher Beam


Pretty recently. Back in the 19th century, prisoners commonly wore black-and-white stripes. Prisons started abandoning this design in the early 20th century, citing its association with chain gangs. For a while, more demure colors were in vogue. New York state abolished prison stripes in 1904, switching to jackets and caps made of gray cloth. North Carolina kept the stripes until 1958, when it replaced them with a color system based on custody levels: Gray uniforms for high-security prisoners, brown for medium-, and green for low-. It wasn't until the 1970s or so that jails started putting some prisoners in orange uniforms—but usually only in special detention situations (like in a temporary facility) or in transit. In California, for example, prisoners must wear orange or red when they're being transported.

While orange may be more popular than in the past, it's actually not ubiquitous. The state of California outfits its male prisoners in denim jeans, blue chambray shirts, and denim jackets. The federal maximum security prison in Florence, Colo., issues khaki trousers and shirts. New York state actually bans the color orange among prisoners: It issues uniforms that are "hunter green," and lets them wear their own T-shirts, as long as they're not blue (the color of prison-guard uniforms), black (too hard to see), gray (other officials wear it), or orange (the color worn by the Correctional Emergency Response Team, or riot control).
Orange might seem more pervasive than it is because prisoners often change into orange when they go out in public. Sheriffs sometimes put prisoners in orange during perp walks in front of reporters, and prisoners often wear orange in court. Movies such as Con Air—in which a group of convicts clad in orange hijacks a plane—have also helped spread the impression that orange is the new black-and-white. And then there's Gitmo. Pictures of Guantanamo Bay prisoners wearing orange have gotten a lot of attention in recent years

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Iains
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 05:18 AM

I wonder why US schools do not introduce security gates and metal detectors. Having spent sometime working in a high rise office block
with De Beers, the security there was so tight the zipper on your jeans was liable to automatically incarcerate you as you attempted entry. No way you were going to force the stainless steel turnstyles, and the huge loops of razor wire on top made climbing a non event. By the time you got inside you were squeaky clean, having passed through metal detectors, a pat down and separate search of all you were carrying. It was very quick and extremely thorough.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 06:08 AM

Donuel, in normal countries people come to court in their own clothes. In fact, come to think of it, this sometimes happens in America; an American woman on trial with her father in relation to the killing of her husband turned up every day very stylishly dressed.

Usually people don't arrive very well dressed, since it's mostly the poor who are prosecuted; court occasions tend to involve poor people in track suits and sneakers and baseball caps, police in uniforms and lawyers in suits, or if it's an important trial, gowns and wigs.

If it's a white-collar crime, of course, the accused dresses in a suit. There's a pair of Dublin jokes: "What do you call a northsider in a three-piece suit? The accused. What do you call a southsider in a three-piece suit? Counsel for the accused." (Basied on the notion, not universally accurate, that people from the part of Dublin north of the River Liffey are poor, and people from the southern part are rich.)

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 06:15 AM

In UK prisons (of which I visited many, about fifteen years ago) inmates used to wear a heavy cotton, good quality, blue and white striped shirt (small narrow stripes) and blue denim jeans. They had grey jumpers, and those who worked outside (in the D Cat prisons) were issued with donkey jackets, gloves and boots. All underwear, socks, pyjamas, bedding and towels etc were provided and laundered. The shirts were so valued that many prisoners pinched one or two to take out with them - they were rather proud of having been 'inside'. Even more prized was the 'escapee outfit' in green and yellow (to be quickly identified) in a sort of harlequin design. Escapees were revered by the others. I never saw any orange uniforms.

Many prisons now allow inmates to wear their own clothes, especially the D Cat ones. I've been in Parkhurst ('Parko') an A Cat prison, and there security was very tight.
All the prisons had the metal-detector arch and searches with hand-held detectors, plus sniffer dogs and a pat-down search too for all visitors, even church ministers and volunteers such as myself.

Schools in USA might do well to implement such stringent searches (and some areas here in UK where knives are now becoming a problem)