BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 11:15 AM

BBC
Sir Keir Starmer: 'All of us' should condemn Russia
Labour's Sir Keir Starmer has backed the Prime Minister in calling out Russia's involvement in the Salisbury attack.
Speaking on BBC One's Question Time, the shadow Brexit Secretary also agreed with Jeremy Corbyn that the authorities need space to do their job properly.
A succession of Labour MPs had called for their party leader to be firmer in his condemnation of Russia.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-43425911/sir-keir-starmer-all-of-us-should-condemn-russia

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 11:12 AM

I set you nothing.
Starmer did support the government.
Most here will have seen it.
I will give you a link and the relevant timings if you doubt me.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 11:09 AM

Keith - so you require us to download and watch that Question Time
just to veryfy if your interpretation of Starmer's response
is a correct reading of his position and intent, or not...

In the meantime, forgive us if we are sceptical....

Btw - How much more homework will you be setting for us over the Easter holiday...???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 10:57 AM

our glorious tory government and it's formalised anti Russian campaign...

I saw senior Labour official Keir Starmer on Question Time on Thursday.
He supported the government position and made no criticism of them.

Has any politician from any party been critical?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 10:35 AM

It gets murkier by the moment.

http://stephenlendman.org/2018/03/russia-denied-right-discovery-skripal-affair/

But the deep state stooges on here keep bleating the party line. I wonder if frontal lobotomies are contagious?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 09:59 AM

BBC mid day news today, live coverage of UK Russian Ambassador's hostile press interrorgation...

He came out of it quite well, if a little twinkle in his eye...

A Times reporter got told off by him for being an antagonistic disrespectful wanker..

Symptomatic of the polite disdain the Russian Ambasador holds for our glorious tory government and it's formalised anti Russian campaign...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 09:37 AM

The fav link of Iains is global research which is a clearing house of conspiracy theories with no in house journalists. It is a obvious a Russian fake news website as there are.

Many of the UK folks while very smart are the victims of Brexit which was Russia inspired and delivered.

In The US we were sold Vladimir Trump.

We now know how Facebook enabled the hack of democracy. Trump essentially paid only 6 million for 50 million fake news attacks.

Why would anyone persist in fouling mudcat with such links.

HE WISHES YOU ILL WILL.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 05:53 AM

"You are the constant turd in the punchbowl of any rational discussion on this forum."
Start the morning at the high intellectual level you obviously intend to continue
You really are going to convince a lot of people with that attitude Iains - maybe the friends you mix with anyway!!
Teribus was as insulting as you (only better at it) and disproved nothing - that's why he blustered and bullied the way you do
Do you really believe that Russia and Syria aren't joined at the hip !!
Screaming "thread-drift" is an old and worn-out tactic - you've been happy to participate in this until you painted yourself into a corner
Grow up and have a bit of self-respect for yourself for Christ's sake
Who do you think you are impressing by behaving like a child who can't get his own way?
You have the documented facts - deal with them if you have any balls
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 05:09 AM

The thread is entitled "If Russia didn't do it - who did ???" Why do you constantly bring in your favourite one eyed, deluded hobbyhorse Syria? Everytime you do it the thread is closed shortly after. I believe Teribus refuted much of your nonsense about Syria with well reasoned factual arguments. He had a lot more patience with you than I have. Frankly many of your assertions are insulting. You are the constant turd in the punchbowl of any rational discussion on this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 18 - 04:26 AM

2Funny how britain identifies the poison/nervegas in five minutes"
HARDLY THE FIRST TIME IT'S HAPPENED!
Just sayin'
"I can state quite categorically our politicians and business men do not have good relations with Syria."
No you can't
Up to the point when Assad was massacring the people of Homs, Britain was supplying military equipment to Assad - it is possible that sniper ammunition licensed by Britain was used to train Assad's snipers - certainly, armoured cars, tear gas and water cannons sold by Britain were used to suppress the Arab Spring demonstrations - this, despite the fact that the world was fully aware of the torture and mass murder that had been taking lace in Syria for over a decade, thanks to THE AMNESTY REPORT of Syrian atrocities.
Britain was in the position to oppose Assad with economic and snd political sanctions - it chose not to
The sanctions only came when Assad used chemical weapons on his opponents (possibly manufactured using British-sold chemicals) - the decision to impose sanctions was due to international outrage at Assad's behaviour and the rise of Isis - certainly not a humanitarian one.
When all this is over, it is unlikely that Assad will ever stand trial for his mass murder and he will return to being a "valued trading partner"
It would be nice if you actually accepted the extent of this mass-murderers atrocities rather than doing a David Irving on him
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 09:26 PM

Russia has used its veto power in the United Nations Security Council repeatedly to block action against Syria, its ally, based on the monitoring group’s reporting on chemical weapons use there. Andrew C. Weber, a former assistant secretary of defense for nuclear, chemical and biological defense programs, said this had tarnished Russia’s “extraordinary achievement” in destroying 40,000 metric tons of stockpiled weapons.

“It does take away from their achievement — frankly, it’s disgraceful — and now the Russian Federation has apparently been caught in a flagrant violation of the Chemical Weapons Convention,” said Mr. Weber, who emerged on Tuesday from a routine meeting with Russian chemical weapons experts on disarmament projects. They were “embarrassed,” he said, when Novichok came up in conversation.

“They don’t want to believe that their government actually did this,” he said.

NY Times

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 05:37 PM

Russia, China , Cuba , Venezuela, Pakistan for instance.....

You left North Korea out of your list of authoritarian autocracies.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 05:10 PM

Funny how britain identifies the poison/nervegas in five minutes and the international experts will take three weeks. Just sayin like!

https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2018/03/20/world/europe/20reuters-britain-chemicalweapons-un.html

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 05:04 PM

"We have good relations with Assad Mick - at least our politicians and businessmen do - it's good business"

Yeah right! Wots all them sanctions about then? Could not even use a windows operating system because of embargoes when I was there and it has become considerably worse since I left some years ago. Bush imposed sanctions in 2004 long before things kicked off.
I can state quite categorically our politicians and business men do not have good relations with Syria. More and more sanctions are being applied each year to the extent of depriving Syria's hospitals of essential machinery, spare parts and even drugs which is having a significant impact on ordinary Syrians. (a familiar story as Iraq knows well)

Be nice if you endeavoured to check the basic facts before posting.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 04:35 PM

We have good relations with Assad Mick - at least our politicians and businessmen do - it's good business
That fact doesn't change one iota anything we have seen on our screens or had reported by human rights organisations
We have helped provide weapons for some of the worst atrocities on the planet - does that make them any the less atrocities?
Britain has just struck a profitable deal to sell fighter planes to Saudi - they are quite likely to be used in Yemen
That's all right then - they are our mates
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 04:04 PM

Mayomick. You cannot beat a bit of reality. Congratulations on telling it like it is.
I hope you have your bunker prepared!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: mayomick
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 03:10 PM

why every Human Right organisation and most nations have Cuddly Assad all wrong
most Western nations you mean , Jim ?
Turkey , Israel Saudi Arabia condemn Assad as harshly as you do but other nations in the region as well as in other parts of the world - Russia, China , Cuba , Venezuela, Pakistan for instance - have good relations with Syria .The countries that supported the invasion of Iraq tend to take the anti-Syrian line.
I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that pro-Syrian countries have pro-Syrian human rights organizations in the same way as anti-Syrian countries have their own anti-Syrian human rights organisations!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 03:05 PM

"Pfr, There is no comparison between bullets and nerve agents."


thinking on from mismanagement....

"mismanglement"

Def: Keith's uncanny ability to misread, misinterpret, misunderstand, whilst maintaining a position of being utterly right...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 03:00 PM

I put up the best conspiracy theory right early on, PFR. Who was missing from the forum at the time of the poisoning? Who usually posts more poison than anyone else? Who is biggest get on your nerves agent that you know?

Think about it. Makes perfect sense :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 02:47 PM

Mick,
e, Putin's assertion that a military grade nerve agent would have killed the pair instantaneously should be easy enough to refute .

Yes. I quoted an expert doing just that. Did you read it?

Pfr, There is no comparison between bullets and nerve agents.

Dave,
Certainly not with most dishonest and devious poster on Mudcat.

There must be more than one person who would like to know why you hold that extraordinary view.
There were at least two of us who wanted to know what mismanagement you referred to.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 02:15 PM

"You are 'aving a larf aren't you? "]
You've promised to put my insults up numortous times Iains - as elusive as your explanation of why every Human Right organisation and most nations have Cuddly Assad all wrong
"or is it a black hole between your ears sucking everything in and nothing of note coming out?"
Now that's what I call an infantil insult
Surely even you realise the crassness of accusing somdy of insulting by insulting them!!!!
Grow up!!
Of course - some people consider being contradicted an insult - there's a psychological term for that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 01:52 PM

At the right doses, nerve agents can kill within five to 15 minutes, says chemical weapons expert Mark Bishop at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies at Monterey. But the Novichok agents are thought to be even more dangerous and deadly; Mirzayanov claims that Novichok-5, for example, can be five to eight times more potent than VX. So the fact that the Skripals are still alive means that “it must have been low dose, or impure, or not administered in a really efficient way,” Bishop tells The Verge. “Because it doesn’t take very much of a nerve agent to be fatal.”
Make of that what you will (and we still have no independent verification of the given analysis)

It has been a convention to date(pre-polonium days)that you do not go after exchanged persons, and you do not endanger the civilian population. No longer true if the sheeple believe everything they are fed.

It all makes as much sense as Assad supposedly gassing civilians when he has virtually won.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/14/17120696/russian-novichok-skripal-nerve-agent-chemical-weapon-poisoning-england

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 01:41 PM

I'll insult all of you ya bunch of warseholes...!!! [me included]

Right then, can we please try to keep personal grudges and bitch fights outside in the car park...???

I'd like to read some more wacky conspiracy theories before this thread attracts attention from the thread closing gods...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 01:33 PM

"I have not insulted anybody"

You are 'aving a larf aren't you? or is it a black hole between your ears sucking everything in and nothing of note coming out?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 01:27 PM

Are you prepared to discuss?

Certainly not with most dishonest and devious poster on Mudcat. Not this nor anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: mayomick
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 12:58 PM

Below is a link to the press conference where the Russian leader made the claim after being asked about the Salisbury incident 5 mins into the Sputnik clip . If it isn't true, Putin's assertion that a military grade nerve agent would have killed the pair instantaneously should be easy enough to refute .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3idEmJEWK8

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 12:47 PM

"I meant that if "the British claim of a military grade nerve agent being used was "absurd" " they would not risk independent analysis exposing it.

Keith - but that goes back to a corny plot premise of a recent spy movie I outlined above...

"We found a Russian bullet in his skull.. That proves the Russians did it"

Granted identifiable nerve agents might be more difficult to procur on the dark web than a bullet,
but.... if secret agent X working for the T..... is utterely determined to frame the Reds....????

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: bobad
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 12:42 PM

Bobad, do you think that Putin was wrong in saying that the British claim of a military grade nerve agent being used was "absurd" ?

WTF do you expect him to say? You really don't get it, do you.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 12:39 PM

Well... we can wonder how much better this incident would have been handled if it had happened with labour in Govt and Corbyn as PM...???

[Conspiracy theory alert...!!!] - ..but would it even have happened at all under a Labour Govt...!!!?????

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 12:37 PM

Mick,
that Putin knew what he was talking about .

He may not be being honest.

Steve,
Spot the non seq...

I meant that if "the British claim of a military grade nerve agent being used was "absurd" " they would not risk independent analysis exposing it.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 12:31 PM

Dave, you posted this on another thread.
Just when you thought that the Tories could not sink any lower than using the Russian nerve agent fiasco to mask passing legislation removing free school meals for thousands of the poorest children

Presumably you believe the government has exagerated the crime to achieve that.
That is a very extreme view. I am surprised even you could suggest it.

I wonder why you think that. Are you prepared to discuss?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 12:29 PM

"I do Mick, and UK has passed samples to OPCW for independent verification."


Spot the non seq...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: mayomick
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 12:29 PM

I’m no expert myself, Keith but would have thought that Putin knew what he was talking about .Maybe somebody from the UK’s MoD will correct him on the point .

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 12:28 PM

Russia didn't say that, pfr, because we told Russia that they'd definitely dunnit and gave 'em 24 hours to explain themselves. Now let's just pretend that you're Russia and I'm Theresa May. I tell you in aggressive tones that you've definitely done something naughty that you know you haven't done and I give you 24 hours to explain yourself. Apart from starting with "Bugger off, Maybot, and shove your accusation up your fundament..." how would you continue the sentence?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 12:07 PM

I do Mick, and UK has passed samples to OPCW for independent verification.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 12:05 PM

To my mind, the most obvious angle that's missing from this piss pot of plots
Would have been Russia calmly stating

"No, it wasn't us. But we'll do our best to help you quickly identify who did do it"

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: mayomick
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 11:58 AM

Bobad, do you think that Putin was wrong in saying that the British claim of a military grade nerve agent being used was "absurd" ?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 10:37 AM

Warsehole - Def: K....

no, sorry.. that's uncalled for.. I'm being a bit of a warsehole...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 10:28 AM

PFR ....need a definition for it to be put in the dictionary ... keeps the thread going till something concrete comes up.... ooops do I know something is in the wind?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 10:07 AM

spoke too soon... I mis spelled my own word and googled with a missing 'e'...

But 'warsehole ' only shows up once from 2010, and with an unclear useage..

So yeah why not.. I still claim WARSEHOLE for mudcatters...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 10:01 AM

btw... 'arseholes' who are also 'wankers'

ie.. what a warsole...

On impulse I just googled "warsole" and it doesn't seem to exist...????

So I claim warsole as originated in and for the exclusive use of mudcat... if you lad's like the sound of it....???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 09:54 AM

I don't like the dismissive term 'troll' - and am suspicious of folks who do overuse it.

I just feel more comfy in the belief that we are all varying degrees of 'arsehole' or 'wanker'..
some far more than others..
and any of us more or less of an arsehole or wanker at any time
depending on mood, provocations, and any other of the various behavoural modifiers...

Special mention, though, reserved for 'arseholes' who are also 'wankers'... wow..!!!

Respect.. that is an extra enormous achievement....

Now back to if the Russians dunnit or not....

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 09:01 AM

No probs, Kenny. Yes, I do rely on a little self deprecation on occasions. I tried it in this post but I suspect it was missed amongst all the shouting :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 08:54 AM

Thank you DtG for an interesting reply.
Personally, being a Libra and always looking for a balance and smiling in the face of adversity, I tend to go to the side of self depreciating humor , it doesn't always work but its more fun,
Ps the spelling error is deliberate

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 08:41 AM

Interesting piece, Kenny, and yes I have displayed some of these traits in so much as I have purposely tried to be as obnoxious as possible on this and other threads. I have since apologised and promised to moderate my language. What I found most interesting was that Ms Beard says In a comprehensive examination of their psychological profile, trolls were found to be more Machiavellian (impulsive and charming manipulators. I do find that while I can live with straight forward abuse, and dish it out, it is the incideous machinations of these trolls that I believe to be far more harmful.

I can see why others may class my behaviour as trollish at times in that it can be seen as anti-social. I will try to moderate that myself. In my defense I can honestly say that I only resort to abuse when nothing else has worked and I am frustrated by others! My bad I suppose. At least I am open and above board about it rather than devious and scheming :-)

Now, speaking of devious poisons, back to novichoks...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 08:07 AM

Now now girls handbags at dawn havnt closed threads YET

An interesting piece from Mary Beard TV historian
I'm not looking for aspersions to be cast but I am looking for some folks to take a good look in the mirror and see if they can identify themselves and make a public confession
Ps I'm not holding my breath

Have a read at Psychology of internet trolls

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 07:38 AM

"I refuse to pick up your dummy jimmie. Go away before you shut down yet another thread."
I don't know if your behaviour is down to a medical condition or simple a result of bad upbringing, but either way, you really need to learn to control it
What you are doing is cyber-bullying from the safety of anonymity and distance
If you continue to behave as you do I will formally request that you are removed -
I have not insulted anybody and it is your behaviour and attempts to silence opinions that you can't deal with that will close this thread - another scalp on your belt.
Please stop it now before somebody else has to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 07:18 AM

"Donald Trump and Jean-Claude Juncker have broken ranks with western disapproval for Vladimir Putin, issuing their congratulations to the Russian leader for his electoral success even as diplomats were flown out of the UK in retribution for the Salisbury nerve agent attack."

Non believers perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 07:06 AM

I predict that it will.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it - who did ???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 18 - 06:53 AM

Yep. Just another source, but a bloody interesting one nonetheless. As I said, the drip-feed of evidence to the public has dried up. In two weeks, all we've had is the formulaic diplomat-swap. I predict that this story will not run and not run.