BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 11:27 AM

"They claim the Israelis have no claim on the land because the Jews were driven off "
And Golda Meir said "there is no such person as a Palestinian", Netanyahu described them as "crocodiles" and the Father of Israel admitted way back that "we have stolen their land - if I were an Arab I wouldn't deal wit the Israelis"
This can take as long as your "your atrocity is worse than mine" exchange idf that's what you wish - but you can d it on your own
Your refusal to discuss what is happening and why is a perfect example of why this killing is taking place
The Jews I grew up with and mixed with must be sick to the back teeth of all this - I know some who have said as much - but they are probably "self haters" (surely that term, in itself is an indication of how sick this all is)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 11:23 AM

So, Israel is fighting for the ONLY Jewish state as a home, and the Palestinians are fighting for a "Pure Nation" free of Jews.

I can agree with you on that.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 11:18 AM

"So, Mr Carroll, you are basically saying that if the casualties are not equal, the side with the lower deaths is at fault"
No I am saying that there is a war on, that war has atrocities committed by both sides as does every war - so instead of throwing "my atrocity is not as bad as your atrocity" bombshells at each other we need to come to terms with the rights and wrongs
Not so long ago I watched the documentary firm 'The Gatekeepers", wher six former heads of Israeli security compared the lenghts they went to with the of the Nazis (since oyu choose to mention them) - one describd the present regime as a "bunch of Nazis"
Around the same time I watched a CBS history programme using archive footing of Israeli soldiers during the Six Day War describing how selected prisoners were chosen to execute their fellow-combatants, without trial, then were taken off and shot themselves
You can't beat horses-mouth evidence like that
This is a dirty war - as far as I am concerned, one side is fighting for their homes - the other for a 'Pure Nation'
The world has been here before
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 11:15 AM

A significant problem is that the backers of the Moslim Palestinian side have a fundamental flaw in many of their arguments:


They claim the Israelis have no claim on the land because the Jews were driven off ( debatable, but that is the claim.) by later groups. But the Israelis should not be allowed to drive off the Palestinians, because Palestinians had possession of the land ( again, debatable ( See history of Ottoman Empire)) in the past.

So the Israelis have to give the land to the Palestinians because the Palestinians were there before ( sort of like the Jews were, but never mind),but after the Jews had been.

The previous owner has the right to the land, except if the owner was Jewish.


BTW, the Palestinians I know and grew up around were members of one of the 6 founding families of Ramallah- ALL ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN. Seems that the Palestinians in place now are NOT the same ones who were there before 1948 - SO WHO are the Israelis supposed to give the land to?

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 11:07 AM

bob - In a perfect world, we could all enjoy the luxury of unlimited time to read up on all sorts of things.
Right now it's a matter of prioritising and balancing day to day domestic commitments and problems,
and concentrating on more immediate UK political concerns that can affect my family and future...

Believe it or not, that's why I settled on mudcat as a convenient source of condensed information and debate...

... that's sad...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 10:59 AM

I need to learn far more
from both sides to construct an informed opinion...

The information is out there, inform yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 10:55 AM

So... bitter held grudges from the past aren't exactly achieving much towards peace settlements then...???

But if bob and Bruce can at least consider discussing possible options for peace in a thread like this,
then there is some potential hope for constructive debate,
rather than the usual two way trading of insults between the 'pros and antis'...

After all perpetual point scoring for the sake of it get's us nowhere...[as much fun as it might be...???}

As for me, I don't hold a position either way, I need to learn far more
from both sides to construct an informed opinion...

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 10:49 AM

So, Mr Carroll, you are basically saying that if the casualties are not equal, the side with the lower deaths is at fault?

So you support the Nazis against Britain (Bombing of Germany killed far more Germans [CIVILIANS!] than German bombing of Britain), and the Russians against the Finns in WW II?


Or are you only saying it applies to Jews?

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 10:45 AM

..and you do tend to give off vibes that you are in no hurry to see an end to violent conflict in this region under discussion...

I support the side that has repeatedly made proposals to end the conflict only to be continuously rebuffed by the other side. I'm not the one who is in no hurry to see the end of the conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 10:43 AM

"usual persona as an antagonistic old point scorer, habitually dismissive of other points of view... "

Unlike Mr Shaw and Carroll?





"No-one is quite so blind..."



As for a peaceful resolution, as long as one side ( the Palestinians, in case you don't know) have committed to the entire removal of the other side, there will be no peace. As long as the Moslim side insists that all the Jews must be removed (after losing in Arab military attacks the areas they had previously removed Jews from,) there can be no peace as long as even one Jew is there. The Palestinians have stated so.


Too bad the Mandate Palestine ARAB MOSLIM homeland (TransJordan, 77% of Mandate Palestine, with NO JEWS permitted to settle) did not accept the 640,000 Moslim refugess from 1948, as the Mandate Palestine JEWISH homeland ( less than 33% of Mandate Palestine) accepted all of the 820,000+ Jewish refugees ( who wished to settle in Israel- some went to other nations driven from Arab nations. It was the Arab League that kept the Palestinians in camps, and would not allow them to immigrate to Arab countries.

The PEACE TREATY between Israel and Jordan specifically states that Jordan DOES NOT include the West Bank- THAT was part of the Jewish Homeland portion of Mandate Palestine.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 10:39 AM

"The Palestinian favorite is to place a tire filled with gasoline around the neck of the victim"
Go caount the casualty list Bruce and then come back an tell us who has slaughtered the most and who has the most efficient at it
There is no need for any of this slaughter so, in order to understand it you need face its causes and not just blame one side
White florescence was acknowledged to be "chemical weapons" when the Israelis finally agreed to end its use - under pressure from the photographs of children with their faces burned away
The ineffectual rockets (go compare the casualties to one day of any of the military incursions) do not match up to the flechette fragment bombs found to have been used during the last invasion of Gaza
Killing civilians became a blood sport when the Isreali death squads went out mopping up survivors amid the rubble of their homes (reported by Israeli soldiers and ignored)
How long do you want to go on with this Bruce - this war is about land seizure and ethnic cleansing, and their ain't no Palestinians doing that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 10:38 AM

simply referring to your usual persona as an antagonistic old point scorer, habitually dismissive of other points of view...

Well, the same can be said for most of the posters here including yourself, if you want to go that route.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 10:35 AM

..and you do tend to give off vibes that you are in no hurry to see an end to violent conflict in this region under discussion...

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 10:27 AM

Bob - nope.. simply referring to your usual persona as an antagonistic old point scorer, habitually dismissive of other points of view...

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 10:07 AM

This your opportunity to show your human side...

BTW Punky, are you implying because I support Israel and its right to defend itself against terrorism that makes me somehow inhuman or less human than you?

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 10:03 AM

"tanks, heavy artillery, anti personnel missiles and chemical weapons"

The Palestinian favorite is to place a tire filled with gasoline around the neck of the victim ( hands tied) and light it on fire. Sure makes their elections festive, changing peoples' hearts and minds.

Sorry, it is Hamas that has (and uses on civilian populations) the anti personnel missiles.

NO-ONE has used chemical weapons, unlike the government side in Syria. But I guess if Arabs use chemical weapons on other Arabs, you are ok with that.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 09:49 AM

"But Bobad, if they are being shot at they MUST be civilians-"
Why not - Isral has a long record of taking part in MURDERING CIVILIANS - especially unarmed one - with a neat twist of disemboweling pregnant women for good measue
"If it was an Israeli crowd, throwing stones and firebombs at a Palestinian area, they MIGHT have a different viewpoint. "
The Israelis settle for trained troops, tanks, heavy artillery, anti personnel missiles and chemical weapons for that Bruce
Wouldn't like to experience either, but given a choice..... !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 09:29 AM

But Bobad, if they are being shot at they MUST be civilians- Jut ask their supporters here.


If it was an Israeli crowd, throwing stones and firebombs at a Palestinian area, they MIGHT have a different viewpoint. Is that really what they want to see? ( re the David and Goliath talk.)

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 09:19 AM

those civilians instigating violence or attempting to breach the border wall.

Calling members of the terrorist groups Hamas, Fatah’s Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, Islamic Jihad, and a salafist group civilians is a misnomer.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 09:09 AM

"Take, for example, the recent events in Gaza. This past Friday, before the first night of Passover, the Palestinian-Arab terrorist group Hamas launched a series of protests on the Gaza Strip near the Israeli border. Over the course of the afternoon, the protests turned violent, as Palestinian-Arabs heaved rocks and firebombs towards the border fence and sent tires engulfed in flames towards Israeli soldiers. The Israeli Defense Force (IDF) responded in kind by targeting those civilians instigating violence or attempting to breach the border wall. "


http://thefederalist.com/2018/04/03/western-media-scrub-mention-hamas-headlines-israeli-clash/

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 09:01 AM

Are you going to back up your claims of an vilolent protest Bodbad?
No?
Thought not
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 09:00 AM

Ok Punkster, how about a liberation movement by the citizens of Gaza and the West Bank against those who are oppressing them - Hamas and Fatah. Once their freedom is gained and the dictatorship replaced with moderate leaders whose priority is the welfare of it's citizens rather than the destruction of Israel only then will peaceful coexistence be achieved.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 08:45 AM

Bob - start by picking one you think could start the peace train rolling...
This your opportunity to show your human side...

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 08:41 AM

Bob - so then, what's your recipe for a peaceful resolution to this never ending conflict...???

What conflict are you referring to? Gaza is not occupied by Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 08:34 AM

Remember how at Orgrieve the miners were accused of starting the violence by attacking the police, who then responded by having a mounted charge and in other ways? When in fact it was later proved that it had been the other way round?

In any large protest there are liable to be those who respond violently, throwing missiles and so forth. That can happen even when those organising wholly oppose that, as here. It happened in the Civil Rights campaigns in America, in Gandhi's campaigns, in Northern Ireland and in many other situations. That is likely to be welcomed by the authorities, since it undermines the protest. Sometimes it is even carried out by infiltrators.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 08:29 AM

Bob - so then, what's your recipe for a peaceful resolution to this never ending conflict...???

Come on, be constructive - you do want peace, don't you...???

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 08:27 AM

You should know by now, Jim, that the first casualty of war is bobad's analytical ability.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 08:17 AM

" "non violent" protestors attacked the Israeli defense forces with stones from slings, "
After it had been announced that Israel were sending in 100 snipers
Theere was no gunfire reported and no guns evident - that is a lie
The events swere filmed and attended by neutral witnesses
Catapults - there goes that David and Goliath analogy again
"Israel, like every other sovereign country, has the right to defend itself from those who would do it harm."
And Israel has the duty to answer to teh shooting down of protesters - or did we gravely misjudge thos besmirchech thos Sharpville sharpshooters
Once again Israel and her supporters are blaming the victims for getting killed
Sick

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 07:44 AM

Conveniently overlooking the fact that the "non violent" protestors attacked the Israeli defense forces with stones from slings, fire bombs, burning tires and gunfire and attempted to infiltrate Israeli territory by cutting the border fence and planting IEDs. This is nothing but a deliberate attempt to provoke a violent confrontation with Israel.??? Hamas bears sole responsibility for the violence. Israel, like every other sovereign country, has the right to defend itself from those who would do it harm.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 06:56 AM

Last week Hasan Al-Kurd said in an interview:

“We will start the march of return on March 30, but the idea is to keep going, and gather more and more people. Within one week, we’re hoping to have at least 50,000 people close to the border. After that, we will advance 100 meters closer to the border.”

He stressed repeatedly that that the protest would be completely nonviolent, contrary to how it was being described in Israeli media.

“We want families. We want to send a message that we want to live in peace — with the Israelis. We’re against stone throwing or even burning tires. We will make sure the protest doesn’t escalate to violence — at least from our end.”

Organizers were fearful that because the Israeli media was portraying the return march as a Hamas-organized event, and considering the increasing number of border incidents in recent weeks, that the Israeli army would mete out deadly force on their nonviolent initiative.

That was of course what has happened. That comes from this source: https://nedhamsonsecondlineviewofthenews.com/2018/03/27/

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Apr 18 - 03:38 AM

"The headline mentions Israel, but it hits Palestinians, too:"
That seems to be a fairly even handed description of what's happening Robo - thanks
"I must say that is the stupidest false equivalence ever seen her"
It would to someone who has claimed that the Paletinians have no right to live where they have lived for over a thousand years Bobad
"They tried suicide bombers - that didn't work, they tried rockets"
Just count the casualty figures - it has always been a David and Goliath battle
The Heroes of the Warsaw Ghetto in 1943 fought with petrol bombs, sniper rifles, barricades and in the end, tunnels - they didn't work either - they ended up in the extermination camps
We still recognise them as heroes - not terrorists
"That was to bobad."
That's a relief - thought you might have caught something off Keith!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 10:56 PM

FWIW today's New York Times Editorial. The headline mentions Israel, but it hits Palestinians, too:

Israel Courts Catastrophe

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 10:11 PM

I must say that is the stupidest false equivalence ever seen here, and there have been plenty.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 10:04 PM

I suppose there were some people said that kind of thing about Martin Luther King, and actually convinced themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 09:32 PM

They tried suicide bombers - that didn't work, they tried rockets - that didn't work, they tried tunnels - that didn't work, this is their latest gambit and make no mistake about it their goal is to kill Jews and it won't work this time.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 09:23 PM

The March for Return is not organised by Hamas. Of the 20 organisers two are members of Hamas, the rest have various left backgrounds. Here is an article with an interview with Hasan alKurd, a chief organiser who has no Hamas connections, but a history of commitment to nonviolence as the only way forward. The article comes from "972 magazine" which was set up in Israel a few years ago by some Israelis who disagree with their government's policy and practice.

In it he repeatedly emphasises the intention of organisers to avoid the use of violence by those involved.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 08:59 PM

That was to bobad.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 08:58 PM

Absolute rubbish. It's impossible to have any sort of rational discussion with you. You are utterly blinkered and obsessed and desperately filled with blind hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 08:56 PM

"I am just stating facts. Do not accuse me of supporting anything or anyone."
Course not Keith - would you do such a thing?
"Hamas is recognised as a terrorist organisation."
So what Keith - Hamas is the party elected to lead the Palestinian people so in fact the Israelis murdered statesmen
Hamaas is the only organisation that stands between Israel and total ethnic cleansing
Israel came into being thanks to terrorist organisations like Hagannah, The Stern Gang and IRGUN ZVA’I LEUMI and those ACTS OF TERROR are still celebrated
Menachem Begin was a terrorist who later became Prime Minister, Moise Dayan was a member of Irgun and later became a statesman
I have little doubt that, should the Palestinian people survive Israeli ETHNIC CLEANSING, many now regarded as "terrorists will be accepted as statesmen
There is a war taking place Keith - every nation at war uses terrorism - incliding Britain and (especially the United States
Beside the point
When Israel conducted their massacre *(which they have refused to hold an enquiry over) they fired indiscriminately into an unarmed crowd - just as the South African Apartheid regime did at Sharpville
One more you are defending teh indiscriminate slaughter of unarmed civilians - your forte, I think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: bobad
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 08:45 PM

This was planned and organised as an essentially non-violent demonstration.

Planned and organized by a terrorist group committed to killing Jews. If you believe that you may be interested in a good deal I can get you on a bridge.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 08:12 PM

In spite of the fact that Israel will not hold an enquiry, suspicious in the extreme, expect two of our local residents to rush in to defend these atacks. And round and round and round we go...

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 08:05 PM

The relevant thing in any case would not be whether those killed were members of this or that, but whether they were engaged in terrorist activity when they were killed.

This was planned and organised as an essentially non-violent demonstration. The fact that all those killed and virtually all those injured were Arabs is evidence that those taking part stuck to that pretty well. No doubt there will have been many members of Hamas and other organisations who will have taken part in it. I am reminded of Bloody Sunday when the IRA issued strict orders that guns should not be taken by any IRA supporters who took part.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 07:51 PM

When did they identify them, Keith? Before or after they summarily slaughtered them?

Beats having to apply the death penalty via the justice system any day. None of that expensive trial-by-jury crap and all that adverse publicity that always comes with having to hang people, etc., not to speak of tbe expense of keeping them on death row for months or years. Much easier to kill the bastards in cold blood first then bleat that they were terrorists anyway...

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 07:08 AM

The Israeli military on Saturday night identified 10 of the 15 people reported killed during violent protests along the Gaza security fence as members of Palestinian terrorist groups, and published a list of their names and positions in the organizations.

Hamas admits that five were theirs.
Hamas is recognised as a terrorist organisation.

I am just stating facts. Do not accuse me of supporting anything or anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 18 - 06:55 AM

Israel has refused to hold an enquiry into this massacre of unarmed dmonstratiors - no surprise there
They have decided that ten of those murdered were "terrorists" based on the figure claimed by Shinn Bet five hours after the killings took place
Israel should be congratulated for the miraculous ability of its marksmen in identifying and identifying and taking out so many terrorists among so many thousands of demonatrators
"Another massacre for old Israel" as the song nearly said!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 11:42 PM

Robo - There are definitely some extremely shit people ruling countries...
Religion and ethnicity are the least factors...
shit people are just shit people...

the arse of the world needs to be wiped.....

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 11:16 PM

Y'mean the condemation of Russia/ Bashar Assad for the destruction wrought on Syrian civilians?

The condemnation of Russia for the destruction wrought on Ukraine (and Dutch) civilians?

The condemnation of Saudi Arabia /Yemen (or Iran /Huthies) for destruction/ starvation of Yemeni civilians?

The condemnation of People's Republic of Congo for the destruction of Congolese institutions and infrastructure?

The condemnation of Sudan/ South Sudan for the depradations on Sudanese/ South Sudanese?

The condemnation of Eritrea for depradations on Eritrean people and ethnic minorities in that sad state?

Oh, and there's always been North Korea? Let's give them a break becuase that's all gonna get sorted out real soon!

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 08:26 PM

Drink to that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 08:00 PM

Well said, Iains.

Subject: RE: BS: G A Z A Demonstrations March-May 2018
From: Iains
Date: 01 Apr 18 - 04:12 PM

I suspect that if it was any country other than Israel then the international condemnation, of what we see taking place,
would be overwhelming.
But having carefully created a situation where any criticism of Israeli government action is considered antisemitic, they have free rein to carry out activities most people despise.
It is long past time thus cloak was obliterated and the actions can be clearly seen for what they are.
It is significant that The United Nations General Assembly has adopted a number of resolutions saying that the strategic relationship with the United States encourages Israel to pursue aggressive and expansionist policies and practices.
,