BS: Boeing 747 Turns Fifty!

Subject: BS: Boeing 747 Turns Fifty!
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 03:25 PM

Apparently the Boeing 747 first flew fifty years ago in FEBRUARY, so we both have the same birthday month.

A book came out a couple-three years ago by Joe Sutter, who was one of the chief engineers involved in the project. I read it with great interest as the engineer's view of projects usually covers interesting details you won't find anywhere else.
Among them:
At one point in the project Joe inherited a bunch of engineers from another project that had lost its funding. He put 'em in a room, kept them from complicating his project, they burned up money and accomplished nothing. I'll bet this has been happening since before the pyramids.
At another point as a production cost savings, he was directed to stop engineering the two outer main landing gears from turning when the aircraft turns. As an engineer he knew these needed to turn or the plane wouldn't work so he continued the design undercover.
One main design characteristic was whether or not the plane should be built double-decker. The Boeing studies indicated that more than one level would make de-plaining too lengthy. They 747 had a top 'bulge' with a capacity for an upper deck but it was used more as a cocktail lounge not as a main passenger area. His book came out before the Airbus A380, a double decker first flew, and I saw him interviewed and bringing up this subject. Indeed, the A380 appears to be a technical triumph, but not a sales success.

I have flown in one of the earliest flights of a 747. My family flew to London with Pan American. I remember how excited everyone was, but I also remember that a lot of the electrics weren't working, the passenger illumination lights were blinking on and off. Some years later I was in one of the first long distance 747s, I think the model was 747 SP from LA to Auckland direct, a damn near 12 hour flight. It was also Pan American, and once again the lights was a-blinkin'.

It is probably prejudice on my part, but I've always felt more comfortable in Boeing transports than in other brands, with the exception of DeHavilland, makers of the fantastic Twin Otter.

Alaska Airlines has standardized on the Boeing 737, which is I think as old a design as the 747 but much less heralded. This model has gone through many upgrades and modernizations. In Alaska they used to fly cargo in the front half, passengers in the rear in special models that were made to land on primitive runways in the Alaska bush. They had special ducted air nozzles to blow down in front of the turbine inlets to keep gravel from being sucked into the spinning blades. As of this time, those specialized jets have been retired as facilities have modernized.

Subject: RE: BS: Boeing 747 Turns Fifty!
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 03:58 PM

That's so interesting robomatic! I remember when Boeing jets first began to appear at London Airport (I could see the control tower from my classroom window, and watch all the take-offs and landings when I should have been paying attention to the teacher!) The jets were much louder than the propeller planes we were used to.
My first ever flight was in the sixties, in a Boeing 707, London Airport to Montreal, with BOAC. (The airport wasn't called 'Heathrow' in those days) That was sixty years ago.
As a small child my father often took me to watch the planes (anyone could get into the airport in those days - no terrorism and hardly any security!) Queen's Buildings had a viewing gallery on the roof, and there was a little toy train called the Peter Pan Railway for children to ride on.
We lived quite near London Airport, and my father helped me to identify every plane that flew over our house. He'd been in the RAF during the War (so had my mother) and we were all flying mad!

Subject: RE: BS: Boeing 747 Turns Fifty!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 04:50 PM

We had recently moved to the city where they were built and saw them being tested, they literally flew over the house.

Subject: RE: BS: Boeing 747 Turns Fifty!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 05:14 PM

My grandmother who lived in Colindale used to take me to "London Airport" on the 140 bus from Burnt Oak. I also enjoyed going on the roof of the Queen's Building. There were very few jet airliners at that time, possibly the Comet was the only one.

Subject: RE: BS: Boeing 747 Turns Fifty!
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 05:35 PM

My friend Susan lived on the Bath Road in Harlington, literally opposite the runway, and could see the planes take off right in front of their sitting room window. Her family's house was built in Victorian times, and incredibly had no electricity, a coal fire, gas mantles for lighting, and an outside toilet. Her father serviced the aircraft.

My flight to Montreal took seven hours, and passed over Newfoundland. Flying in those days was 'posh', and many of the lady passengers wore fur coats and hats with a little veil at the front. My ticket was paid for by my aunt and uncle in Ontario. I went all alone, and wasn't a bit scared. (And I certainly wasn't a bit 'posh' either!)

Subject: RE: BS: Boeing 747 Turns Fifty!
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Apr 18 - 06:02 PM

Jet turbines have undergone massive development and improvement over the periods before and after the 747. Of course, the British and Germans pioneered the development of turbine aircraft engines prior to WWII and the Germans pioneered the revolutionary ME262 during the war itself, too late to do the Nazis much good, and hampered by Der Fuhrer's micro-managing. The British had centrifugal type compressors in their early jets, which were probably more durable than the German design but not as advanced in development.

Then came the very unfortunate debacle with the deHavilland Comet. It is a very important development in aviation history, where they pioneered a beautiful jet passenger aircraft but did not allow for stress fractures in the airframe due to the repetitive pressurization cycles of high altitude flight. I believe they had rectangular windows, for instance, a major no-no in pressurization and stress accomodation. The fuselages literally burst. This resulted in several horrific accidents with high loss of life, pioneering recovery and research work in analyzing the shards of wreckage, discovery of the problem, and the American 'snatching' of the technical lead since the Comets took time to be re-engineered and manufactured while Boeing came out with the 707 and Douglas came out with the DC-9.

In a way, the crashes of the Space Shuttles were a kind of 'echo' of this sad fact of engineering: You do something new and there are new gremlins out there to bite you.

In former times jet transports sounded not unlike rockets when taking off. Due to the optimizing of the engines to make the inlet blades function as fans, they have become far quieter and more efficient in fuel use.

Subject: RE: BS: Boeing 747 Turns Fifty!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 02:22 AM

Coolest plane I ever saw, was a 747 with a space shuttle on its back at Edwards Air Force Base. Wish I could have seen it fly.

Subject: RE: BS: Boeing 747 Turns Fifty!
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Apr 18 - 04:12 AM

I remember both my parents running outside, pointing at the sky and shouting, "It's The Comet!" I imagine it was the only one around flying out of London Airport in those days. I soon got to know it, and would shout from the garden, "Dad! The Comet!" Even the neighbours would come outside to look at it.

I was extra lucky because RAF Northolt military airport was quite near, and we got all kinds of aeroplanes from there.
Not only that, but Ruislip Airfield, about five miles away, had been passed over to the Americans, and we had the added bonus of American planes going over our heads.
Ooooh Joe, I'd love to have seen that space shuttle on the back of a 747!
Norwich Airport has an Aviation Museum in an adjoining field, and there's a Vulcan B2 and a Nimrod V2. Drool.....

Subject: RE: BS: Boeing 747 Turns Fifty!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 02:20 PM

Joe,

The 747/shuttle flew a "victory loop" around the DC beltway, when the shuttle was being brought in to Dulles.


Went right over Goddard Space Flight Center, and of course we all went out to see it.

I recall there had been an earlier flyby a number of years ago, near the start of the STS program ( I was on console here at GSFC for the first four flights.)

The five on-board computers of the Shuttle were slightly less capable than an IBM PC ( first generation). But then, my TI SR-52 outpowered the one on the LEMs (Lunar Excursion Module).


The XB-70 is the one I wish I could have seen in flight. That would have made a good first stage for orbital launches.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargazer_%28aircraft%29

Subject: RE: BS: Boeing 747 Turns Fifty!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 02:27 PM

(closed early

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuttle_Carrier_Aircraft

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuttle_Carrier_Aircraft#/media/File:Space_Shuttle_Discovery_Transport.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Boeing 747 Turns Fifty!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 02:34 PM

OK, here is the Valkyie:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_XB-70_Valkyrie#/media/File:North_American_XB-70A_Valkyrie_on_the_taxiway_with_a_che

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_XB-70_Valkyrie#/media/File:North_American_XB-70_Valkyrie_at_Wright-Patterson_USAF_M

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_XB-70_Valkyrie#/media/File:North_American_XB-70_in_Flight_EC68-2131.jpg


"A thing of beauty is a joy for ever:
Its lovliness increases; it will never
Pass into nothingness;"
                                    Keats

Subject: RE: BS: Boeing 747 Turns Fifty!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 02:40 PM

OK, the first two pictures have too long an address. Go to

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_XB-70_Valkyrie

and go through pictures

Subject: RE: BS: Boeing 747 Turns Fifty!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Apr 18 - 02:47 PM

50...

The 747 might find it's fuselage becoming decreasingly rigid and dependable as when it was 18...???

Subject: RE: BS: Boeing 747 Turns Fifty!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 01:27 AM

Hi, Bruce - I saw the XB-70 at Dayton when I went to visit Catspaw, but I never got the chance to see one in flight.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Boeing 747 Turns Fifty!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 08:17 AM

Few have- only flights were 1964-1968, at high speeds and altitudes. At Mach 3+. blink and it is past.

But is would be able to put a moderate payload into orbit with a single stage (From Mach 3 at 70,000 feet). We presently use two stages from 40,000 feet at less than Mach 1.

Subject: RE: BS: Boeing 747 Turns Fifty!
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 10:24 AM

BeardedBruce

I had an TI SR-52 - I even found a bug that TI totally disowned. If I remember it right it involved a calculation followed by something like a goto (it was a long time ago) The was no work-around you just couldn't program that sequence. It was infinitely quicker working out the parameter sequence for a digital filter than our own ICL computer dept. With its hand writing, lady punching the tape, one week later, you found yer mistakes.

Never specified a TI product after that. Same guy was the liaison, he knew he'd blown it! Couldn't rely on them, specified Intel, they were more honest with faults.

Subject: RE: BS: Boeing 747 Turns Fifty!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 12:14 PM

I had the SR-51 first ( non-programmable). Useful, but I was not allowed to use it at work- the use of calculators was forbidden in the Cyclotron lab (University of Maryland Sectored Isochronus Cyclotron Lab, UMSICL http://accelconf.web.cern.ch/accelconf/p69/PDF/PAC1969_0438.PDF), as the radiation levels would supposedly fry them. Had to use a slide rule there.