are very long folk songs boring?

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:32 AM

yet Jim choose to criticise nic jomes accompaniments, from pre 1982
36 years ago, you choose to judge Nic on materialfrom over 36 years ago yet do not want yourself or peggy to be judged on material from way back, why dont you cop on, one rule for PEGGY AND EWAN AND YOURSELF BUT ANOTHER RULE FOR Nic Jones

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST,Rigby
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 05:10 AM

"Accompanied singing in England, Scotland and Ireland is a revival addition, unlike many Europe traditions - not a criticism, just an observation"

That's a moot point, isn't it. We can argue about the proportions (and I'm sure Jim will), but quite a large number of songs in the English tradition are known to have originated in the pleasure gardens, in the music halls, in parlour song, maybe also in West Gallery music -- all contexts where they would presumably have been accompanied. So yes perhaps losing the accompaniment was part of the process that turned them into folk songs, but it's not like there is something sacrosanct or particularly ancient about their being sung unaccompanied.

I think Nic Jones is a bit of a special case in that both his melodies and his arrangements often have only very tenuous links to anything collected from traditional singers. As far as I can tell, for instance, his tunes for Annachie Gordon and Clyde Water are pretty much his own, and although I guess he must have got Canadee I-O originally from Harry Upton, Upton's tune is barely recognisable in the Jones version.

For the most part I think what he did was very effective, and he was very good at putting across the narrative and drama of a long ballad, but he used the tradition as a resource for developing his own style and material, not as an end in itself.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Johnny J
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 05:15 AM

I'm afraid to say that it was the guitar accompaniment and other musical arrangements which first attracted me to Nic Jones' music and that of a few other artists of the time... e.g. Dick Gaughan, June Tabor and Martin Simpson. Also with groups such as Steeleye, Fairports etc, the instrumental side of things was very important.

As a result, I actually became aware of many great songs and ballads which I may never have listened to otherwise. Of course, the more interested I became in the music over the years, I became aware of some great unaccompanied singers past and present and also developed an ear for purely vocal renditions.

Both unaccompanied song and songs with instrumental backing and arrangements are acceptable in my opinion. However, there is obviously potential for good and bad with both.

As far as musical arrangements are concerned, I prefer if they don't detract too much from the song itself. Sometimes things can get "too busy" or the style of music may not be to my taste. The length of an introduction and/or breaks aren't necessarily an issue. It all depends but as long as I'm able to focus on the song itself that's fine.

These days, some of the younger musicians tend to include some over clever musical arrangements...just because they can , it seems to me. On the other hand, others are still capable of producing very sensitive and sympathetic musical backing.
I suppose it's all a matter of personal preference.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 05:32 AM

" but quite a large number of songs in the English tradition are known to have originated in the pleasure gardens,"
You're right I would argue this (nobody knows where they originated), but that's beside the point
Our traditional singers chose not to accompany them and I believe for the readon we are discussing here
"Jim choose to criticise nic jomes accompaniments, from pre 1982"
Because they are the ones that have been put up as good - I believe they are not
Peggy and Ewan cme to terms with they youthful limitations - the intrusive over-accompaniment remains a feature of modern revival singing
abd during the "Electric folk" era turned our songs into musical soup
I don't wish to make this a Nic ones/Ewan MacColl pissing contest - everyone is entitled to their own tastes
I start from my approach to the songs not the singers - The Liverpool Spinners were my introduction to folk songs, for which I will remain eternally grateful - but I would never in a thousand years wish to sing like them
I love MacColl's singing because he interpreted each song and treated each one as an individual piece
My wife Pat told me her experience of bringing a workmate home and playing a MacColl album to here
The response was, "Interesting - which one as he?"
Didn't want to open a can of worms I wasn't gong to follow through - damn - always happens
Hopefully this will still be going on Thursday
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:01 AM

Must apologise for the persistent typos - a combination of typing too fast and an idiosyncratic keyboard with sound transcribing control facilities I am reluctant to relinquish until I can find a suitable replacement
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:42 AM

Yes I liked MacColl's singing for that reason. It reminded me of Michael Pennington's Richard II - each word was rather terrific.

I often thought the world had missed out on a great Macbeth.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:47 AM

MacColl's acting influence centered around the Stanislavski approach - very different and far more personally drawn
Bye all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:48 AM

Or as the say in the Liverpool elocution exercise "Tarra Theresa, see you Thursday"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:51 AM

Might I politely suggest two remedies, Jim?

1] Purchase a less "idiosyncratic" keyboard. Mine is a Packard Bell and it has the virtue of always recognising the keys that I press correctly. I have just seen one identical to mine on eBay. It was for sale 'buy it now' for £4 plus £2 postage. It would be money well spent. In my experience there are keyboards that make inconsistent mistakes. My old work laptop was an offender. I tried to have it replaced but the powers that be refused - so I gave up using it. This was more inconvenient to others than to me so eventually (and reluctantly) the authorities replaced it.

2] One problem with Mudcat, compared with, let's say, Facebook is that once you have pressed that 'Submit Message' button, that is it. You cannot go back and edit or correct what you have typed. That makes it imperative that we all should check very carefully before submitting. It is always wise to read what you have written by checking the preview box before submitting. Personally, I find every typo that I have missed to be galling even though the context usually means that the meaning can still be understood.

I have just checked this posting by first creating a preview. I am glad that I did. There were three small typos in it! How would I have felt playing Lord High Mighty (as I am) and then found that I was myself making errors?

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:57 AM

...and bringing myself back to the subject, I agree with those who say that it is not the length of a song that leads to boredom, it is the quality of the interpretation and the relevance to the situation that the singer(s) bring to it.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST,Mr Red at library
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 07:26 AM

(PP to video again)

As (touches forelock) Martin Carthy MBE is apt to say

You can do anything to a Folk Song, anything at all, and it will survive. Except ignore it!

So be it boring, but not silent............


runs and ducks for cover

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 07:41 AM

As long as the performer is singing the song from memory, and not reading it off a sheet of paper or an ipad, the song can be as long as it takes, IMO.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 08:22 AM

"Jim choose to criticise nic jomes accompaniments, from pre 1982"
Because they are the ones that have been put up as good - I believe they are not"
one rule for Peggy but a different rule for Nic Jones, well Jim, I believe Peggys accompaniment on two tracks was not good, and furthermore unlike Nic Jones introduction to Canadio, was not even interesting music.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 08:43 AM

I'll just say it's a very good job electricity was harnessed for the benefit of mankind.
and affordable entry level electric guitars, keyboards, and amps have never been better quality...

"Our traditional singers chose not to accompany them "

..of course, if cheap good electric guitars for the masses had be invented a century earlier...????

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 08:52 AM

Not if they are performed well, that the performer is able to invoke the imagary of the song.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 09:16 AM

btw.. we will note there were no folk singers performing at the televised BBC Queen's 92nd birthday concert...

By Royal Decree...?????

Highlight of the concert was a joyful mass proletarian ensemble performing "When I'm cleaning windows"...

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 09:45 AM

Wasn't Sting at Liz's 92nd?

He is sort of folky.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST,Pfr on mobile phone on the bog
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 10:12 AM

Nahh.. it was rediscovered reggae sting on this occasion...

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Andy7
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 01:31 PM

If you want a great example of crass musical accompaniment, try Jim Reeves's 'Distant Drums'.

Not only does the orchestration dominate the song, we also have to be treated to the sound of a drum in the 'drums' verse, and the sound of a bugle (or some other brass instrument) in the 'bugles' verse ... just in case we couldn't understand the words?

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 01:42 PM

"... Bernard Cribbin's Hole in the Ground.... I doubt if the layman would remember a single detail of the accompaniment.

Big Al - I intended posting this earlier but got distracted by a bacon buttie and chips...

Folks might be surprised just how inventive and sophisticated the backing tracks for vintage EMI [Abbey Road...???] comedy novelty songs can be...

I think they reward investigation and close listening, and are a significant influence on later Beatles recordings...???

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 02:17 PM

A great example of non intrusive accompaniment

Bob Knight Tramps and hawkers

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 02:30 PM

Kenny - interesting comparing it to the next youtube suggested playlist version...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rACb4q4Rxz0


I know which I prefer, and why... but both are very valid and listenable...

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 05:26 PM

yes, pfr , very interesting, the second is well sung too but a little fast and rigid,, however the guitarist is very competent and good but someho he impose a rythym on the song when IMO IT SHOULD BE SLOWER MORE RELAXED AND FREER,

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 05:35 PM

HERE IS ABETTER SUNG VERSION BY ARTHUR JOHNSTONE WITH GUITAR,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy36JzBl77ghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy36JzBl77g">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy36JzBl77g BOB KINGHTS VERSION AND ARTHUR JOHNSTONES ARE IMO SUNG BETTER, a matter of taste. ewan mclennans has the potential to be better , great guitar playing but he sounds as if [unlike arthur johnstone]he is following his guitar

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 03:41 AM

and are a significant influence on later Beatles recordings

that would be George Martin's influence on both eras of course.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 12:18 PM

Boring? Judge for yourself...

World's Longest Song
   (Tim Wallace, Lorain, Ohio)
    (passed away 2015)

There are some recordings of him on YouTube, but not this one)



This is the ballad of the world's longest song
Nobody can sing it because it's so long.
No one can remember how all of it goes,
So I'll just sing the first hundred verses or so.

The context is boring- it's not very deep,
And all those who hear it may soon fall asleep.
And all those who stay conscious are sure to be bored,
And all those who don't will be poked if they snore.

The melody starts here, and then it goes _low.
The next line is ^{higher, and winds up like so}.
The third line is similar, but not quite the same,
And the fourth line is just like the third line again.

It's dull and redundant, and it repeats itself,
And it's dull and redundant and it repeats itself.
It just says the same thing all over, and then
It just says the same thing all over again.

It was handed down from my great-grandfather's time.
My grandfather sang it, but he couldn't get it right.
My father added more words, but he couldn't quite get them all to fit....
Then he gave it to me, and now I'm stuck with it.

Now I'm working on it, but I'm pretty dense.
I just haven't got any rhythmical sense,
And when I pass away, it will go to my son,
Which may prove to be hard, since I haven't got one.

Nobody can sing it, though many have tried.
One fellow swore that he could, but he lied.
When four hundred eighty-ninth verse came around,
He got queasy and shaky and had to lie down.

But the once was a fellow who really could sing.
He quite nearly finished the whole bloody thing.
When he came to the last verse, he swelled up with pride,
Stammered and choked and exploded and died.

There's one verse in here that I can't quite recall.
There's one line I just can't remember at all
-----------------------------------------------------------
And part of another that I ---------------------

Now somebody said that this song is all fluff-
I should put in some socially redeeming stuff....
Some truth and high consciousness. I said,"Gee whiz
That'll make it more boring than it already is!"

Now just to be fair and put everything right,
I hummed the one verse that wasn't polite.
It was crude and profane and contained dirty words.
It was the ------ that I ever heard!

Well, the time has now come as in every dumb song,
When we all are cajoled into singing along.
But learning the chorus should not prove a chore,
'Cause it's all parts of songs you've all heard before:

REPEAT AFTER ME

Toori-li, oori-li, oori-li-aye
Toori-li, oori-li, oori-li-aye
Hey diddle diddle the dilly dally day
Hey diddle diddle the dilly dally day
Hickory, dickory fiddle lee aye oh
   Hickory, dickory fiddle lee aye oh
Chug chug, toot toot, clank clnk clank e-i-o
   Chug chug, toot toot, clank clnk clank e-i-o

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 12:38 PM

"one rule for Peggy but a different rule for Nic Jones"
Read what I wrote Dick and stop making it up

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 12:52 PM

PFR
I think it depends on your age group and whether you play accompaniment in relation to which style you prefer, probably also on which version you heard first. I'm open to other suggestions of what influences what we like.
I have been humourously berated for singing Abdul Abul bul Amir and We Never Mention Aunt Claram in an "acoustic" sessions while being complemented at a "trad?" session. I try to connect with an audience's nostalgia by playing songs they havnt heard for years.
Its a great feeling when at the end of a song your see a big smile and " I havnt heard that for years it was my xxxx favorite song"

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 12:57 PM

As a guitar player, I'm not too keen on clever dick show off guitar playing in folk..
I definitely prefers my monotonous minimalist hypnotic reed drones...

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 01:37 PM

Jim, you wrote
Listening to Nic Jones again brought back all the memories of self-indulgence and lack of of any interpretation that related to the contents of the song - a pleasant blandness and total lack of emotional tension.
Jones follows the accompaniment rather than making it a canvas on which to paint your song
You could go to downstairs for a pint and a pee in the time his musical runs take - at least a quarter of the whole song - ridiculous!
Instead of running lines together where the plot calls for it, he leaves gaps in the action - he almost makes it an eight line poetic structure rather than a four like one - one word strikes me in listening to his singing - "gappy"
I am not against accompaniment by any means - when I was singing regularly well over half of my large repertoire was accompanied"
       so you are judging him on material from 36 years ago, yet you say peggys bad accompaniment is excusable because it was 36 plus years ago.
I repeat one rule for peggy another for nic jones

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 01:55 PM

Jim's comments get more bizarre when you read them again. "Our traditional singers" sing without accompaniment? There is a whole strand of Scottish and Irish tradition which is purely instrumental, and another in which singing is accompanied by various instruments, notably fiddle, but also guitar and various keyboard instruments. Traditional singing doesn't begin and end with Joseph Taylor and Walter Pardon. There are traditional melodies which are clearly hundreds of years old. In some cases the melody is something to fit a lyric around, rather than vice versa.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 02:45 PM

"Our traditional singers" sing without accompaniment?"

..but what if their poor hard working for a pittance manual labouring forefathers
could have afforded decent musical instruments...???

..then there's another consideration...

"...has that prim starched song collecting fella from the city buggered off yet..
right then.. get out the banjos, sax, and drum kit for a proper knees up...!!!"

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 03:00 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWylhRo3UJY">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWylhRo3UJY, THIS IS WHAT I CALL MAGNIFICENT SINGING, SUCH POISE COMMAND AND BEAUTY

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 03:26 PM

Sandman   Mary Barry - the Flower of Sweet Strabane

plus a good selection with and without accompaniment

"THIS IS WHAT I CALL MAGNIFICENT SINGING, SUCH POISE COMMAND AND BEAUTY" wholeheartedly agree

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 03:45 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWylhRo3UJY

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 09:04 AM

"I repeat one rule for peggy another for nic jones"
I specified what I thought of Nic Jones singing in detail
If you can't e bothered responding to what to actually said, we have nothing to say to each other Dick
Jones represent's a style of performance which leaves no room for interpretation - his singing of narrative songs is in fact non-narrative
That's what I said and that's what I meant
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 09:16 AM

Curious how folk clubs would respond to deaf folkies performing long ballads in sign language..
Or performing arts students presenting long ballads as interpretive dance and mime...????

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 10:06 AM

Or alternatively performing Grieg's Piano Concerto in A minor on the spoons.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 12:44 PM

At a song swap at a music camp there was a guy who sang every freakin' verse of "A la claire fountain" in French. It was excruciating.