are very long folk songs boring?

Subject: are very long folk songs too boring?
From: Andy7
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 05:08 PM

Yes, they very often are, imho!

I do love, and value, the fact that the old, traditional songs are kept alive in our folk clubs.

And yet, if they have way too many verses, and go on and on and on, I start to find that I'm a little bit less in favour of perpetuating those wonderful old songs, and a little bit more in favour of the concept of a '3-minute pop song'!

Although maybe it's just that my attention span, like that of most people these days, has become a lot shorter than it used to be?

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 05:22 PM

Mega tragedia, mega kakon.

Long songs aren't boring, it's the singers. You prefer the 3 minute pop song? What do you prefer in bed?

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 05:30 PM

are story tellers, boring?
3 minute popsongs are often tedious IMO, EVEN IF THEY ARE ONLY 3 M8INUTES LONG THEY ARE OFTEN 3 MINUTES TOO LONG.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Stower
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 05:54 PM

Is a 90 minute film boring? Are 30 second adverts better? Are books boring? Are short newspaper columns better? Is a big painting boring? Are miniatures better?

These are irrelevant questions. Films and adverts do different jobs, as do books and columns, and large paintings and miniatures, as do short songs and big ballads. Big ballads are written that way for a purpose. They build, they create drama. They take as long as they take, like a good novel, like a gripping film.

Whether a big ballad is any good depends entirely on the quality of the verses, the durability of the melody, the performer and the performance - and indeed the audience. It has nothing to do with the length, any more than The Lego Movie (100 minutes) is better than Gone With The Wind (238 mintes) because it's shorter.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST,Rigby
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 06:04 PM

I haven't been lucky enough to go to many folk clubs where people are keeping long traditional ballads alive. Please tell me where I can find them!

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 06:12 PM

If you're conscious of the length of a traditional song, the singer has failed. It's about engagement. If the singer/song fails to engage the listener, it will seem too long. If it succeeds - they'll wonder where the time went!

Regards

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 07:06 PM

Sadly mostly yes - unless there is a particularly talented singer who can inject life into such a song. Sadly these are rare beasts indeed. In fact usually the worse the singer the longer the song......I know of quite a few people who go to the bar when a certain singer of such songs gets up. I am usually too slow ;-)

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 07:17 PM

More down to the singer in my experience.

But
some songs do make me groan. Modernish ones with choruses along the lines of
I love you, why did you go, I love you, why did you go,
I love you, why did you go, I love you, why did you go,
(repeat)
Love you, love you, love love love you
Why...... oh....... why.........
Did........ you ..........go....o.o.o......o.o.o.

Can any singer drive any interest into those songs?

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: meself
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 07:46 PM

If you find them boring, then they are boring - to you. If you don't find them boring, then they are not boring - to you. Rocket science.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 07:52 PM

The singer of whom I spoke earlier also had the habit of stringing two shorter (but still very long in his hands) songs together so the escape to the bar after the first one was thwarted. It was clear that audiences were being driven away so action had to be taken.......

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 08:00 PM

Do you consider Stan Rogers' material tedious? What of the Child ballads? Good songs are not dependent upon length but upon quality. A one verse piece can be delightful or preachy. I depends upon content and presentation.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 08:34 PM

Most of the longer songs are ballads, telling a story: if you can keep focussed on the story, then they can work, especially if the singer injects some life and expression, eve body language, facial expression, dynamics, light and shade, into the song.
However, if sung in a monotone to (sadly often) a fairly non-descript tune, it is easy to lose the plot and/or fall asleep!
And the joiny-in lines can be a double-edged sword: e.g. everyone waiting to sing "down by the greenwoodsidey-o" and forgetting what the story of the song is.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 01:04 AM

When I was 18 with my whole life ahead of me
I had time and patience to sit through extremely long foreign art house movies,
without needing a single toilet break...

Now I'm soon to be 60, with far fewer unknown limited number of years left,
I need on average two toilet breaks per shorter 90 minute movie...

Long movies have become something of an endurance test,
which I've become disinclined to commit to watching..
and there's no guarantee I'll stay awake through even a short loud frenetic paced action movie...

So, I'd think a fair compromise for senior audiences would be to take long ballads and speed the BPM tempo up significantly..
just to be on the safe side...

Similarly, if I make it over 70, I'd resist the temptation to start watching new TV series
that run to more than 20 episodes per season,
with potential for being renewed year after year...

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 01:08 AM

In short, speed 'em up, and keep a metronome on stage...!!!

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: michaelr
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 01:32 AM

Speed up the BTM tempo? That will just make you frantic and degrade the experience.

The Cliff Notes approach will boil the story down to its essentials. I seem to remember Richard Thompson doing it with Hamlet. Three minutes is a long time.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 01:33 AM

Have a listen to some of Martin Carthy's stuff. He injects life into the longest ballads, in my opinion. Other traditional song singers are available :-)

I concur with the comments above. It is as much the presentation as the material.

DtG

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 01:55 AM

Frankie Armstrong could sing a half-hour ballad, and I'd be spellbound. Same with Judy Cook, or Art Thieme, or a number of others who know that to sing a long song properly, you have to be a storyteller. They lasso you in, and hold you in thrall for as long as they like - and then you beg for more.
If a long song is boring, it's the singer's fault. Well, it could be the song's fault, but then the singer should not have chosen that song.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 02:12 AM

Some years back I mentioned that while I generally love long ballads and songs I find "The Prickly Bush/Hangman Stay Your Hand" a boring song because it is essentially the same verse over and over and over. Someone replied that they had sung it at a school and all the children were enthralled and on tenterhooks wondering how the story would turn out.

See? As has been said above, it is a complicated mix of personal taste, the skill of the singer and the audience, familiarity and unfamiliarity, and many other more subtle effects. The actual length of it is one of the less important factors.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 02:39 AM

This quote from John Cage seems apposite... 'If something is boring after two minutes, try it for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen. Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it is not boring at all.'

I always appreciated his argument that if people claimed to find his music boring, it wasn't because of the music itself, rather that those people had simply found a way to be bored.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 02:56 AM

"If you're conscious of the length of a traditional song, the singer has failed."
Says everything to me
A three verse song badly sung is is two verse too long - boring
The longest ballad you can name, well sung is not long enough - riveting
Our literary classics - Dickens - Hardy, Mrs Gaskell - boring?
not to me - I enjoyed reading all of them and was sorry when they ended.
Walter Pardon once summed up the length of songs in his inimitable brilliant "simple countryman" (as a folkie one described him) way
Talking about his version of Van Dieman's land, he said, "It's a long old song, but it was a long old journey" - a perfect description of a good singer at ease with his art
Those who judge songs by their length need to ask if the problem doesn't lie with them rather than the songs
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Acorn4
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 03:50 AM

Anachie Gordon in the right hands can be spellbinding.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 04:12 AM

I know I am in a minority here, but I find a story boring if I already know the outcome. So yes, I often find folksingers who consider themselves storytellers boring. What makes the folk song interesting to me is the musical arrangement.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 04:15 AM

attention span is declining. Blame the internet.

But like all song, it depends on the delivery. A comic song can keep your attention with jokes along the way and the payoff being the best.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 05:31 AM

like Frank Carson used to say - its the way you tell 'em!

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 05:42 AM

"attention span is declining. Blame the internet."
I agree totally
Unfortunately our folk songs are narratives with tunes so if you find them boring they are not for you
Musically, their four or eight line (at most) structure is difficult to take after a couple of hearings unless you vary it racially - doing so draws the attention away from the narrative and it loses it raison d'être and becomes something else (fine if you prefer that "something else")
Kerry Traveller, Mikeen McCarthy told us, "Make a song or story work for yourself and others will like it as well"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 06:45 AM

Yes, Jim, I think many of the story-ballads work well precisely because they are carried by simple tunes that don't distract from the narrative.

If anything, it's over-arranged songs that get me fidgety - you know the kind of thing: an eight-bar musical introduction, a four-bar musical break between verses, a 16-bar noodly bit in the middle, and the last line developed into a climactic eight-bar ending. The whole song can take twice as long as it otherwise might. Unless it's really well done, this kind of thing can seem self-indulgent, and have me looking at my watch and the empty glass in front of me.

(You did mean "radically" and not "racially", didn't you? Predictive text strikes again!)

Marje

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 08:12 AM

So Nic Jones' arrangement of Canadee-i-o, which I think has a 16 bar introduction, is that self-indulgent?

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Johnny J
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 08:42 AM

Depends on the song and singer.

Even a good song can sound boring in the wrong hands(or should I say voice?). Particularly so in large singarounds where the singers realise that they may only get one or two songs at the most. So, it's a case of "I'm only getting one song, so I'll make the bloody most of it" attitude.
:-((

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Will Fly
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 09:07 AM

MCs/comperes of clubs will recognise the occasional phenomenon of the floor singer who, when told it's one number per performer and that time is short, will either (a) say, "Oh, could I do two very short ones?" or (b) ignores the time constraint and sings an inordinately long song. The two short ones, inevitably, are not short. Such people concentrate only on their own needs and ignore the feel of the whole evening.

My action, when that happens, has been to exclude them from future floor spots - which is actually less drastic than some MCs I've heard in years gone by, who shouted out something like "Get a move on!" in the middle of a number!

There's absolutely nothing wrong with performing a long ballad, but context and ability are everything.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 09:25 AM

"which I think has a 16 bar introduction, is that self-indulgent? "
Yup
Unless accompaniment accompanies it is intrusive - in my opinion this includes most of Nic Jones singing (but he's not the only one by any means)
"racially"
Most certanly mend radically

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Elmore
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 11:23 AM

Never found Elizabeth Laprelle, Eric Bogle or the late Eva Cassidy boring.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Acorn4
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 11:29 AM

With apologies to Pete Morton although I have actually showed him this:-

Another Verse

If the beginning was now, you’d have made the break,
But you managed to miss your chance, that was your big mistake,
And now you’re stuck here bursting for the loo,
When you heard those words “Child Ballad” it should have been your cue

But there’s another verse, there always is,
Tho’ you’re desperate for a leak we could still be here next week,
Another verse there always is, maybe the next one’s the last,
But hope is fading fast, yet another verse.

You hope it’s done , but there’s no such thing,
You’re in the grip of Musgrave, Lord Bateman or Tam Lin,
Squinting at their ipad, they bumble through the words
How you regret your mistake of not escaping while you could.

But there’s another verse, there always is,

You try crossing your legs, try to hold on
Imagine a parallel universe where the ballads are not long,
Now they’ve lost their place , as it staggers on;
There should be something like a driving test
To sing this sort of song.

But there’s another verse, there always is,

Though we like to show respect, pretend to be enthralled
We all know who will be to blame for hat puddle on the floor
When you heard “Child Ballad” I imagined that
You’d be listening to Bob the Builder, Firemen Sam or Postman Pat

But there’s another verse, there always is,
Add
But you won’t get to the loo as we’re not yet halfway through another verse.
.and on a minute wait, I’ve just seen the fire escape..


(I think something akin to a driving test is the answer)

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 11:34 AM

I've heard live performances, and seen Youtube videos, where the musical noodling at the start or in the middle goes on for something like a minute without a word being sung. I find myself saying (very quietly to myself if it's a live performance) "Get on with it". A song consists of words and tune. Neither should eclipse the other.

A ballad takes as long as it takes, but any musical breaks making it even longer should be avoided entirely or, at most, applied in moderation at points where there is a natural break in the narrative.

As for the length of the song itself, I agree with most of the comments above.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 01:00 PM

If you look at the folk traditions of Eastern and Southern Europe, music and dance play a more important role relative to lyrics, than in British and Irish tradition. And even in British and Irish tradition it varies.

Jim, I thoroughly disagree with you, though I concede that it is only that our tastes differ. Nic Jones produced many original arrangements, Canadee-i-o is one of the best. Original arrangement, superb guitar playing, and a sensitive setting of a traditional song.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 01:02 PM

Excellent Acorn4!

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 01:20 PM

I was hoping to avoid taste
To me, the main job of a singer is to communicate a narrative - very singer we have ever recorded has told us that the story is more important than the tune - I accept that totally
We have a long talk on accompaniment given by Peggy Seeger way back in 1969
Her words still ring in my ears - "The first thing you ask yourself about accompaniment is, is it necessary?" - not a bad statement from a musician with her skills
As impressive as much of the Nic Jones, Martin Carthy school of accompaniment may be, I find it isn't.
The acid test for me is when you find yourself listening to the tune rather than the words and then having to run to catch up with the plot
Our song song structure is so tight (especially the ballads) is that if you miss even a couple of words, you've lost the plot altogether
I found clever-clever accompaniments very entertaining way back when, now I just find them intrusive

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 01:29 PM

One of the reasons I tend to prefer European Folk to 'ours'..
is for me they have a better sense of musicality in both instrumentation and voice..
and it doesn't matter if the words are shite because I don't understand them...

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 03:09 PM

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: David Carter (UK) - PM
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 08:12 AM

So Nic Jones' arrangement of Canadee-i-o, which I think has a 16 bar introduction, is that self-indulgent?"
it might be self indulgent but it happens to be a very good bit of music, it is an introduction so imo it does not interfere with the story l;ine if iot was half way through the song it might

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Andy7
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 07:32 PM

"I found clever-clever accompaniments very entertaining way back when, now I just find them intrusive"

Yes, I do agree that 'clever' instrumentation can, on occasion, detract from the content of the song; especially if the performer seems to be giving more attention to the intricate fingerwork on their instrument than to the words, the story and the emotions in the song that they're performing.

It's such a delicate balance, though! Skilful playing, on whichever instrument is being used as accompaniment, can also really support and enhance a song.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 07:45 PM

It has been a while since I listened to Nic Jones's Canadee I.O. - I'd forgotten why I disliked it
I've made a point of listening to as many of our our older singers as possible over the years - you might say I've made a study of it.
Even the oldest of most pat their prime them, with all the problems that age brings, had a narrative grasp of their songs in common - in the West of Ireland they referred to "telling a song" rather than "singing" it.
Most of them sang in their natural speaking tones, as if they were telling a story.
They sang as they spoke, putting in the commas and full stops where they belonged, and usually, they chose a speed that suited the narrative (dragging our a song too slowly is probably the greatest contribution to the idea that long songs are boring - the narrative of as song should be the decider of the speed it is sung)
Listening to Nic Jones again brought back all the memories of self-indulgence and lack of of any interpretation that related to the contents of the song - a pleasant blandness and total lack of emotional tension.
Jones follows the accompaniment rather than making it a canvas on which to paint your song
You could go to downstairs for a pint and a pee in the time his musical runs take - at least a quarter of the whole song - ridiculous!
Instead of running lines together where the plot calls for it, he leaves gaps in the action - he almost makes it an eight line poetic structure rather than a four like one - one word strikes me in listening to his singing - "gappy"
I am not against accompaniment by any means - when I was singing regularly well over half of my large repertoire was accompanied (by a friend)
When I lost my accompanist (through moving) I abandoned many of my songs - no problem, my interest in collecting and research didn't leave me the time I once had
Now I've started to sing again I find that, while I miss accompaniment for some songs, it is not essential
I have revived around two thirds of my 300 + songs nd so far I have not found one I can't sing unaccompanied - English language folk songs are like that
While I've lost much of my singing "edge" (what I had of it), I can't remember enjoying singing as much as I am doing now - but there again - I'm a sucker for a good story
Peggy Seeger again on accompaniment: "The sure sign that accompaniment is doing its job with an audience is when they only hear it when it stops or it goes wrong"
Sorry - didn't mean to go on for so long but I'm off to Galway for a few days tomorrow to pig out on films that never make it to this part of the world
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 02:19 AM

"I have revived around two thirds of my 300 + songs nd so far I have not found one I can't sing unaccompanied - English language folk songs are like that"

Not just folksongs. Most English people know the tunes of about half The Beatles and Elvis Presley's body of work.
Re- songs with a narrative. Similarly most people of my generation could tell you the story of Marty Robbins El Paso, Mickey Newbury's In the Ghetto, Kenny Roger's Lucille, Bernard Cribbin's Hole in the Ground.

I doubt if the layman would remember a single detail of the accompaniment.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 03:09 AM

Its odd that Peggy Seeger should say that, as on some of her recordings the accompaniment provided by her sons is absolutely crucial to the emotional impact of the song.

Jim and I clearly are listening for different things. Mikeen McCarthy, mentioned above, I could only find one of his songs freely available on youtube, which was The Herring. It was just a bit over 4 minutes and I really found it very hard going. Very repetitive. And also very difficult to make out the words. Canadee-i-o is two minutes longer, and you don't want it to end.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 03:16 AM

I partly agree with Jim Carroll,I do not find Nic Jones a good interpretative singer, however he does have a good voice which is pleasant to listen to but Canadeeio and many of his guitar arrangement are spell binding and worth listening to as instrumental music much as a music afficianado might listen to classical music or jazz, he was a phenomenal insturmentalist.
next point,imo there are some traditonal singers who also are not good singers, either there voice was knackered or thsy had no idea about interpretation and sang in a dead pan way.
Ewan MacColl imo was not any better singer than Nic Jones, but for different reasons his approach was theatrical not natural he lacked any spontaneity.
a matter of taste, but neither MacColl or Jones would be singers that inspire me, however I could listen to Jones purely for his instrumentasl ability and to MacColl for the high quality of his songwriting

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 03:23 AM

so my point above was , that people listen to music or songs for different reasons some listen for the singing interpretation some listen [as i might listen to classical or jazz] for good instrumental playing for some its poetry for some its words for others its the musicality of the voice for others its for instrumental virtosity, for others instrumental sensitivity and for some allof the above qualities

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 03:31 AM

on the subject of Peggy Seeger and accompaniment, yes, very true , however some of peggys accompaniments from way back are not good, listen to a couple of the tracks accompanying ALLloyd on his australian songs, the recording that has drovers dream as one of the tracks ,there is one track that has a couple of banjo accompaniments that are a destraction from the song and at the same time do not have the virtue of NicJones in that they are not good instrumental peices, they are just bizarre

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 03:32 AM

"Make a song or story work for yourself and others will like it as well"

Hmmmm. As one musical wife of a musical duo said to me "He's taken up the banjo, and you know people fall in love with a new instrument"

And I have heard that in someone singing a song they have just discovered and they clearly have fallen in love with it.

It is the way you tell 'em.

Frank also added I Tell 'em Better

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 03:35 AM

I think it's much the same with many (most?) new performers. They have one or two really good songs, and often quite beautiful voices, but their vocal and musical style lack the breadth to be entertaining for a 90min show without it quickly becoming tedious.

It's too easy to produce a CD these days - essentially vanity publishing comes to music. The odd decent song on them gets picked up by the likes of Folk Radio UK and you think "that's good". But, when you try listening to the performer for 70mins . . . . . ????

I don't think it's attention spans that are getting shorter. I believe it's the quantity of mediocre shite we're bombarded with.

Of course people switch off.

In every field of human endeavour, genuine talent is a very scarce commodity.

Bob

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 03:40 AM

"The acid test for me is when you find yourself listening to the tune rather than the words and then having to run to catch up with the plot" jim carroll.
yes, fair point, but much worse is when you are distracted by bizarre accompaniment that appears to have no instrumental virtue[ on its own] and is reminscent of an annoying insect that should have been hit with a fly swotter and put out of its misery, as are two of Seegers banjo accompaniments on Lloyds Australian songs cd.[ THE CD is the one that has tracks such as drovers dream and bluey brink, although i seem to remember that the worst track might have been the very first track on the cd.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 03:58 AM

"however some of peggys accompaniments from way back are not good, "
Of course they are not - Peggy has said so herself
Ewan told us once in an interview that he couldn't bear to listen to recordings he made in the early days
I hope nobody ever judges me on what I was doing and what I knew fifty or sixty years ago
It needs to be remembered that We are talking about English/British songs - the American tradition after the 20s/30s became far more instrumentally based
There are two distinct traditional approached in the US - go listen to the Harry Smith collection and compare it to the Dillard Chandler/Texas Gladden type of interpretation
Personally, I love both as a listener - but an I said, I don't want to discuss taste - each to his/her own
I've tried to lay out my interpretation of how the older singers approached their song - we have loads of interviews with some of them talking about this - especially Walter Pardon
The Traveller I mentioned, Mikeen McCarthy, had his father's songs printed on ballad-sheets and sold the around the fairs and markets in rural Kerry in the forties and fifties
He didvided the singing he grew up with into three distinct parts for ballad selling, pub singing ans fireside singing - three different styles for three different situations
You can hear the street style of singing (with accompaniment) in the recordings of Davy Stewart chalk and cheese compared to, say The Stewart's or Jeannie Roberson
Our old singers sang unaccompanied - Walter Pardon playd the fiddle and malodeon, yet he never considered it necessary to accompany his songs - neither did Harry Cox
We recorded songs in Ireland from some very fine fiddle and concertina players yet none of them used their instrumental skills to accompany their songs
Accompanied singing in England, Scotland and Ireland is a revival addition, unlike many Europe traditions - not a criticism, just an observation
Must go - Galway calls
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 04:25 AM

imo if anyone is interested in listening to traditional singers they should listen to phil tanner and joseph taylor.
Jim",Accompanied singing in England, Scotland and Ireland is a revival addition."
no, not entirely correct again, more correct to say big majority, examples can be found to prove your statement incorrect, why do you always exagerrate your points