are very long folk songs boring?

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Andy7
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 07:32 PM

"I found clever-clever accompaniments very entertaining way back when, now I just find them intrusive"

Yes, I do agree that 'clever' instrumentation can, on occasion, detract from the content of the song; especially if the performer seems to be giving more attention to the intricate fingerwork on their instrument than to the words, the story and the emotions in the song that they're performing.

It's such a delicate balance, though! Skilful playing, on whichever instrument is being used as accompaniment, can also really support and enhance a song.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 03:09 PM

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: David Carter (UK) - PM
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 08:12 AM

So Nic Jones' arrangement of Canadee-i-o, which I think has a 16 bar introduction, is that self-indulgent?"
it might be self indulgent but it happens to be a very good bit of music, it is an introduction so imo it does not interfere with the story l;ine if iot was half way through the song it might

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 01:29 PM

One of the reasons I tend to prefer European Folk to 'ours'..
is for me they have a better sense of musicality in both instrumentation and voice..
and it doesn't matter if the words are shite because I don't understand them...

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 01:20 PM

I was hoping to avoid taste
To me, the main job of a singer is to communicate a narrative - very singer we have ever recorded has told us that the story is more important than the tune - I accept that totally
We have a long talk on accompaniment given by Peggy Seeger way back in 1969
Her words still ring in my ears - "The first thing you ask yourself about accompaniment is, is it necessary?" - not a bad statement from a musician with her skills
As impressive as much of the Nic Jones, Martin Carthy school of accompaniment may be, I find it isn't.
The acid test for me is when you find yourself listening to the tune rather than the words and then having to run to catch up with the plot
Our song song structure is so tight (especially the ballads) is that if you miss even a couple of words, you've lost the plot altogether
I found clever-clever accompaniments very entertaining way back when, now I just find them intrusive

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 01:02 PM

Excellent Acorn4!

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 01:00 PM

If you look at the folk traditions of Eastern and Southern Europe, music and dance play a more important role relative to lyrics, than in British and Irish tradition. And even in British and Irish tradition it varies.

Jim, I thoroughly disagree with you, though I concede that it is only that our tastes differ. Nic Jones produced many original arrangements, Canadee-i-o is one of the best. Original arrangement, superb guitar playing, and a sensitive setting of a traditional song.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 11:34 AM

I've heard live performances, and seen Youtube videos, where the musical noodling at the start or in the middle goes on for something like a minute without a word being sung. I find myself saying (very quietly to myself if it's a live performance) "Get on with it". A song consists of words and tune. Neither should eclipse the other.

A ballad takes as long as it takes, but any musical breaks making it even longer should be avoided entirely or, at most, applied in moderation at points where there is a natural break in the narrative.

As for the length of the song itself, I agree with most of the comments above.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Acorn4
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 11:29 AM

With apologies to Pete Morton although I have actually showed him this:-

Another Verse

If the beginning was now, you’d have made the break,
But you managed to miss your chance, that was your big mistake,
And now you’re stuck here bursting for the loo,
When you heard those words “Child Ballad” it should have been your cue

But there’s another verse, there always is,
Tho’ you’re desperate for a leak we could still be here next week,
Another verse there always is, maybe the next one’s the last,
But hope is fading fast, yet another verse.

You hope it’s done , but there’s no such thing,
You’re in the grip of Musgrave, Lord Bateman or Tam Lin,
Squinting at their ipad, they bumble through the words
How you regret your mistake of not escaping while you could.

But there’s another verse, there always is,

You try crossing your legs, try to hold on
Imagine a parallel universe where the ballads are not long,
Now they’ve lost their place , as it staggers on;
There should be something like a driving test
To sing this sort of song.

But there’s another verse, there always is,

Though we like to show respect, pretend to be enthralled
We all know who will be to blame for hat puddle on the floor
When you heard “Child Ballad” I imagined that
You’d be listening to Bob the Builder, Firemen Sam or Postman Pat

But there’s another verse, there always is,
Add
But you won’t get to the loo as we’re not yet halfway through another verse.
.and on a minute wait, I’ve just seen the fire escape..


(I think something akin to a driving test is the answer)

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Elmore
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 11:23 AM

Never found Elizabeth Laprelle, Eric Bogle or the late Eva Cassidy boring.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 09:25 AM

"which I think has a 16 bar introduction, is that self-indulgent? "
Yup
Unless accompaniment accompanies it is intrusive - in my opinion this includes most of Nic Jones singing (but he's not the only one by any means)
"racially"
Most certanly mend radically

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Will Fly
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 09:07 AM

MCs/comperes of clubs will recognise the occasional phenomenon of the floor singer who, when told it's one number per performer and that time is short, will either (a) say, "Oh, could I do two very short ones?" or (b) ignores the time constraint and sings an inordinately long song. The two short ones, inevitably, are not short. Such people concentrate only on their own needs and ignore the feel of the whole evening.

My action, when that happens, has been to exclude them from future floor spots - which is actually less drastic than some MCs I've heard in years gone by, who shouted out something like "Get a move on!" in the middle of a number!

There's absolutely nothing wrong with performing a long ballad, but context and ability are everything.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Johnny J
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 08:42 AM

Depends on the song and singer.

Even a good song can sound boring in the wrong hands(or should I say voice?). Particularly so in large singarounds where the singers realise that they may only get one or two songs at the most. So, it's a case of "I'm only getting one song, so I'll make the bloody most of it" attitude.
:-((

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 08:12 AM

So Nic Jones' arrangement of Canadee-i-o, which I think has a 16 bar introduction, is that self-indulgent?

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 06:45 AM

Yes, Jim, I think many of the story-ballads work well precisely because they are carried by simple tunes that don't distract from the narrative.

If anything, it's over-arranged songs that get me fidgety - you know the kind of thing: an eight-bar musical introduction, a four-bar musical break between verses, a 16-bar noodly bit in the middle, and the last line developed into a climactic eight-bar ending. The whole song can take twice as long as it otherwise might. Unless it's really well done, this kind of thing can seem self-indulgent, and have me looking at my watch and the empty glass in front of me.

(You did mean "radically" and not "racially", didn't you? Predictive text strikes again!)

Marje

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 05:42 AM

"attention span is declining. Blame the internet."
I agree totally
Unfortunately our folk songs are narratives with tunes so if you find them boring they are not for you
Musically, their four or eight line (at most) structure is difficult to take after a couple of hearings unless you vary it racially - doing so draws the attention away from the narrative and it loses it raison d'être and becomes something else (fine if you prefer that "something else")
Kerry Traveller, Mikeen McCarthy told us, "Make a song or story work for yourself and others will like it as well"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 05:31 AM

like Frank Carson used to say - its the way you tell 'em!

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 04:15 AM

attention span is declining. Blame the internet.

But like all song, it depends on the delivery. A comic song can keep your attention with jokes along the way and the payoff being the best.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 04:12 AM

I know I am in a minority here, but I find a story boring if I already know the outcome. So yes, I often find folksingers who consider themselves storytellers boring. What makes the folk song interesting to me is the musical arrangement.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Acorn4
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 03:50 AM

Anachie Gordon in the right hands can be spellbinding.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 02:56 AM

"If you're conscious of the length of a traditional song, the singer has failed."
Says everything to me
A three verse song badly sung is is two verse too long - boring
The longest ballad you can name, well sung is not long enough - riveting
Our literary classics - Dickens - Hardy, Mrs Gaskell - boring?
not to me - I enjoyed reading all of them and was sorry when they ended.
Walter Pardon once summed up the length of songs in his inimitable brilliant "simple countryman" (as a folkie one described him) way
Talking about his version of Van Dieman's land, he said, "It's a long old song, but it was a long old journey" - a perfect description of a good singer at ease with his art
Those who judge songs by their length need to ask if the problem doesn't lie with them rather than the songs
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 02:39 AM

This quote from John Cage seems apposite... 'If something is boring after two minutes, try it for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen. Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it is not boring at all.'

I always appreciated his argument that if people claimed to find his music boring, it wasn't because of the music itself, rather that those people had simply found a way to be bored.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 02:12 AM

Some years back I mentioned that while I generally love long ballads and songs I find "The Prickly Bush/Hangman Stay Your Hand" a boring song because it is essentially the same verse over and over and over. Someone replied that they had sung it at a school and all the children were enthralled and on tenterhooks wondering how the story would turn out.

See? As has been said above, it is a complicated mix of personal taste, the skill of the singer and the audience, familiarity and unfamiliarity, and many other more subtle effects. The actual length of it is one of the less important factors.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 01:55 AM

Frankie Armstrong could sing a half-hour ballad, and I'd be spellbound. Same with Judy Cook, or Art Thieme, or a number of others who know that to sing a long song properly, you have to be a storyteller. They lasso you in, and hold you in thrall for as long as they like - and then you beg for more.
If a long song is boring, it's the singer's fault. Well, it could be the song's fault, but then the singer should not have chosen that song.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 01:33 AM

Have a listen to some of Martin Carthy's stuff. He injects life into the longest ballads, in my opinion. Other traditional song singers are available :-)

I concur with the comments above. It is as much the presentation as the material.

DtG

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: michaelr
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 01:32 AM

Speed up the BTM tempo? That will just make you frantic and degrade the experience.

The Cliff Notes approach will boil the story down to its essentials. I seem to remember Richard Thompson doing it with Hamlet. Three minutes is a long time.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 01:08 AM

In short, speed 'em up, and keep a metronome on stage...!!!

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Apr 18 - 01:04 AM

When I was 18 with my whole life ahead of me
I had time and patience to sit through extremely long foreign art house movies,
without needing a single toilet break...

Now I'm soon to be 60, with far fewer unknown limited number of years left,
I need on average two toilet breaks per shorter 90 minute movie...

Long movies have become something of an endurance test,
which I've become disinclined to commit to watching..
and there's no guarantee I'll stay awake through even a short loud frenetic paced action movie...

So, I'd think a fair compromise for senior audiences would be to take long ballads and speed the BPM tempo up significantly..
just to be on the safe side...

Similarly, if I make it over 70, I'd resist the temptation to start watching new TV series
that run to more than 20 episodes per season,
with potential for being renewed year after year...

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 08:34 PM

Most of the longer songs are ballads, telling a story: if you can keep focussed on the story, then they can work, especially if the singer injects some life and expression, eve body language, facial expression, dynamics, light and shade, into the song.
However, if sung in a monotone to (sadly often) a fairly non-descript tune, it is easy to lose the plot and/or fall asleep!
And the joiny-in lines can be a double-edged sword: e.g. everyone waiting to sing "down by the greenwoodsidey-o" and forgetting what the story of the song is.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 08:00 PM

Do you consider Stan Rogers' material tedious? What of the Child ballads? Good songs are not dependent upon length but upon quality. A one verse piece can be delightful or preachy. I depends upon content and presentation.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 07:52 PM

The singer of whom I spoke earlier also had the habit of stringing two shorter (but still very long in his hands) songs together so the escape to the bar after the first one was thwarted. It was clear that audiences were being driven away so action had to be taken.......

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: meself
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 07:46 PM

If you find them boring, then they are boring - to you. If you don't find them boring, then they are not boring - to you. Rocket science.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 07:17 PM

More down to the singer in my experience.

But
some songs do make me groan. Modernish ones with choruses along the lines of
I love you, why did you go, I love you, why did you go,
I love you, why did you go, I love you, why did you go,
(repeat)
Love you, love you, love love love you
Why...... oh....... why.........
Did........ you ..........go....o.o.o......o.o.o.

Can any singer drive any interest into those songs?

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 07:06 PM

Sadly mostly yes - unless there is a particularly talented singer who can inject life into such a song. Sadly these are rare beasts indeed. In fact usually the worse the singer the longer the song......I know of quite a few people who go to the bar when a certain singer of such songs gets up. I am usually too slow ;-)

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 06:12 PM

If you're conscious of the length of a traditional song, the singer has failed. It's about engagement. If the singer/song fails to engage the listener, it will seem too long. If it succeeds - they'll wonder where the time went!

Regards

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: GUEST,Rigby
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 06:04 PM

I haven't been lucky enough to go to many folk clubs where people are keeping long traditional ballads alive. Please tell me where I can find them!

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Stower
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 05:54 PM

Is a 90 minute film boring? Are 30 second adverts better? Are books boring? Are short newspaper columns better? Is a big painting boring? Are miniatures better?

These are irrelevant questions. Films and adverts do different jobs, as do books and columns, and large paintings and miniatures, as do short songs and big ballads. Big ballads are written that way for a purpose. They build, they create drama. They take as long as they take, like a good novel, like a gripping film.

Whether a big ballad is any good depends entirely on the quality of the verses, the durability of the melody, the performer and the performance - and indeed the audience. It has nothing to do with the length, any more than The Lego Movie (100 minutes) is better than Gone With The Wind (238 mintes) because it's shorter.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 05:30 PM

are story tellers, boring?
3 minute popsongs are often tedious IMO, EVEN IF THEY ARE ONLY 3 M8INUTES LONG THEY ARE OFTEN 3 MINUTES TOO LONG.

Subject: RE: are very long folk songs boring?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 05:22 PM

Mega tragedia, mega kakon.

Long songs aren't boring, it's the singers. You prefer the 3 minute pop song? What do you prefer in bed?

Subject: are very long folk songs too boring?
From: Andy7
Date: 21 Apr 18 - 05:08 PM

Yes, they very often are, imho!

I do love, and value, the fact that the old, traditional songs are kept alive in our folk clubs.

And yet, if they have way too many verses, and go on and on and on, I start to find that I'm a little bit less in favour of perpetuating those wonderful old songs, and a little bit more in favour of the concept of a '3-minute pop song'!

Although maybe it's just that my attention span, like that of most people these days, has become a lot shorter than it used to be?