Closure of Folk Festivals

Subject: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 05:01 AM

Beverley has closed and Alcester has closed.
The closure of Beverley is reminiscent of the closure of Pickering a few years ago, is this the result of business entrepreneurs trying to make a quick buck?
Perhaps, the UK Folk Revival, needs to give more support and realise the importance of the enthusiast who runs the weekly guest folk club, who is running a community based operation.
And at the same time be more wary of trusting entrepreneurs who take over what had previously been an established well run Festival,I suspect many unfortunate people had been duped not realising the management had changed at Beverley Folk Festival, as there was no change of name.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 05:34 AM

Those are both rather small and remote places - there is no way a major festival somewhere like that could be an outgrowth of the local community, let alone the local folk club.

Does Whitby Folk Club take any part in organizing Whitby Folk Week? In several years of going I've seen nothing to suggest it. It's really a Bradford and Sheffield Folk Week that uses Whitby as a venue. Nothing wrong with that, but the event doesn't stand or fall with the fortunes of the local folk club.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 05:43 AM

In answer to your question, Dick, I do not believe Beverley was closed due to 'business entrepreneurs trying to make a quick buck'. There is an ongoing thread about it and I believe that was explained on there.

I don't know about Pickering.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 06:06 AM

One problem, I believe, is that the number of folk festivals has grown to such an extent that the market is saturated and for the smaller events even to break even requires some comparatively hefty subsidy or sponsorship - lose that and the event is no longer viable. The demise of a Folk Festival is almost never to do with rapacious "entrepreneurs" or people being "duped".

I don't know who the "UK Folk Revival" is nor how to contact it for support.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 12:33 PM

Morrisey, perhaps you should investigate Pickering folk festival and look further into Beverley and the fact that IT HAS BEEN STATED they had a debt from last year, What ever themotives of the organisers it appears, as i understand it that people paid for tickets and have not been refunded and booked performers have not been paid.
Morrisey, do you think this is morally right?
and might i suggest that instead of having a go at me for accidentally starting two threads on the same subject, that you should be more concerned about performers who have lost work and potential income and customers who have bought festival tickets and who have lost their money ,you need to get your priorities right , or do you have some personal agenda against me?

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 12:53 PM

Not a folk festival..
but I just read that Bristol Totterdown community street festival has been closed down by the Police...

Why police have pulled the plug on the Totterdown Music Festival

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 01:27 PM

Dick

My issue is that you have a monochrome view of the world where any festival that fails is due to money-grabbers, rip-off merchants, and crooks.

Are you saying that the organisers of Beverley are crooks? Are you saying the same about Pickering?

If so, I suggest you tell the Police of the evidence you have.

While we are here, you have said that if your festival failed you would reimburse everyone form your own funds -can you prove that you have sufficient funds to do so and is that promise in the terms and conditions of sale of tickets?

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 02:27 PM

"Does Whitby Folk Club take any part in organizing Whitby Folk Week? In several years of going I've seen nothing to suggest it"
Whitby Folk club did used to be part of the whitby folk festival, Jack I was going there in 1976 and was booked throughout the 1980s and again occasionally in the nineties, and Iremember clearly that it was part of the festival.
Jack, you see you are wrong in your statement , I will give you the example of Towersey village festival, this festival was started by denis manners[ a socialist] and was a community based village festival[ hence its name] that grew gradually in to the present Towersey festival.
Then we have festivals such as Sidmouth.. founded by the EFDSS
Sidmouth Festival was founded as a folk dance festival in 1955 by the English Folk Dance and Song Society (EFDSS), but gradually expanded to cover ceilidh dancing, music and song, as well as related folk crafts.[2] Over time, the scope also broadened to include performers from abroad, and the festival was renamed the Sidmouth International Folklore Festival.
Jck Campin the reasons the festivals were started by EFDSS ARE STATED BELOW, they were not intened originally as commercial exrcises money making was not number one priority, they slowly evolved and grew
The English Folk Dance and Song Society (EFDSS, or pronounced 'EFF-diss'[1]) was formed in 1932 when two organisations merged: the Folk-Song Society and the English Folk Dance Society.[2] The EFDSS, a member-based organisation, was incorporated as a company limited by guarantee (no. 297142) in 1935 and became a registered charity (no. 305999) in England and Wales in 1963.

The Folk-Song Society, founded in London in 1898,[3] focused on collecting and publishing, primarily folk songs of Britain and Ireland although there was no formal limitation. Participants included Lucy Broadwood, Kate Lee, Cecil Sharp, Percy Grainger, Ralph Vaughan Williams, George Butterworth, George Barnet Gardiner,[4] Henry Hammond, Anne Gilchrist and Ella Leather.[5]

The English Folk Dance Society was founded in 1911 by Cecil Sharp. Maud Karpeles was a leading participant. Its purpose was to preserve and promote English folk dances in their traditional forms, including Morris and sword dances, traditional social dances, and interpretations of the dances published by John Playford.

One of the greatest contributions that the EFDSS made to the folk movement, both dance and song, was the folk festival, starting with the Stratford-upon-Avon Festival in the 1940s and later festivals in Whitby, Sidmouth, Holmfirth, Chippenham and elsewhere.
PLEASE NOTE
Its purpose was to preserve and promote English folk dances in their traditional forms, including Morris and sword dances, traditional social dances, and interpretations of the dances published by John Playford.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 02:39 PM

You missed the point I was making. I was saying that a local folk club makes no difference to the continued existence of a large festival in the same area - it will always be run by people who have nothing to do with the club. So supporting the club won't help the festival.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 02:44 PM

Dick doesn't need to provide evidence, the evidence is held at Companies House, and some of it has been placed in the public domain on the other thread. Trading while insolvent is actually a criminal offence, but it is unlikely that the police will be involved, if the liquidator thinks that this has happened they will file a report with the Department of Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, who will take it through the courts if this is justified. The outcome may be that the Directors are disqualified from acting as company directors, which probably won't matter to them, and that they may be held personally liable for some or all of the company's debts, which will.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 02:45 PM

Morrissey, I have all the money required to pay everybody, I do not have to prove anything, but i can assure you that after my event, I will be asking for an apology for your impertinence.,
it is not me, but the organisers of Beverley festival that have collected money and not yet refunded it, it is the organisers of Beverley festival that have cancelled performers and as far as i know not paid them.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 02:48 PM

there is a thread about pickering and here is one of the posts of many
Subject: RE: Pickering Folk Festival: Tickets Online
From: GUEST,julie - PM
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 11:47 AM

Having waited for the rearranged folk festival to occur in May and then August 2009, I have recently discovered that the event has again been cancelled. Upto now I have not tried to claim a refund (paid via a debit card for 2 tickets + camping). I have read the many mails and links and would ideally like to attempt to try and claim my money back now, but think it is too too late. Any ideas and who do i write to ?? is the Events and Exhibitions Ltd in Leeds address (on a correspondence from last December any use?) Do trading standards respond. It looks like i will have to write this one off?

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 02:54 PM

a local folk club makes no difference to the continued existence of a large festival in the same area - it will always be run by people who have nothing to do with the club. So supporting the club won't help the festival.

An exception. Irvine's Marymass Folk Festival now in its 51 year as part of the town's Community Marymass Festival. The Folk Festival is organised, and run entirely by the Irvine Folk Club. Over the years things have changed and the Club has modified the shape and duration of their folk festival to accommodate those changes (Started off as being one week long, then gradually shortened in. It now only runs over three days) largely brought about by reduction in sponsorship. It used to be a festival where "folk music" was played, but over the years it has the music has become more eclectic this change no doubt brought about by changing tastes and preferences (Irvine Folk Club appears to be very well supported and they, unlike many, book many different styles of Guest artists throughout the course of the year).

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 03:05 PM

I am saying that the organisers of Beverley have collected festival ticket money and have not refunded it and that Beverley organisers have cancelled all guest artists and as far as i know have not paid them, is that morally right Morrissey?
I am also saying that the Pickering organisers went to the wall and as far as i know have still not refunded everybody, is that morally right Morrissey.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 03:08 PM

Breaking News: BEVERLEY FOLK FESTIVAL CANCELLED

It is with immense sadness and regret that we have to announce that this year’s festival cannot go ahead.

Beverley Folk Festival is a non-profit-making organisation, run by a dedicated team of volunteers. Unfortunately we have recently discovered that we have lost our primary source of funding so we simply do not have the money to pay for either the infrastructure or the performers.We know that there will be a lot of people who are as disappointed as we are but we hope you will understand that, under the circumstances in which we find ourselves, it is not possible to run the event.

Unfortunately the company is unable to refund those people who have bought tickets in advance of the festival.

The directors, who are also volunteers, have taken the steps to place the company into a creditors’ voluntary liquidation as the company is insolvent. The directors have instructed a firm of licensed insolvency practitioners to assist them with this process and if you are owed money or have bought a ticket in advance then they will be in touch with you shortly.

If you have made a deposit for or paid for goods or services by credit or debit card and the goods or services are not going to be received by the due date, you may be able to get your money back by claiming a refund from your card issuer. Please contact your card issuer as soon as you can if this may apply to you. Further information including on time limits that apply is available from the UK Cards Association Credit and Debit Cards: A consumer guide

The directors would like to thank all those who have supported Beverley Folk Festival over the years, especially the sponsors, funders, East Riding of Yorkshire Council, Beverley Town Council and the hundreds of wonderful volunteers and artists.

In addition, whilst thanking the thousands of loyal festival-goers who have made the event a joy, the directors also offer their deepest and most sincere apologies to all those who are owed money by the company.

This has been an incredibly difficult and heart-breaking decision for all involved. However, the directors acknowledge that for almost 35 years Beverley Folk Festival has brought something special to the town, which was loved and enjoyed by so many people from far and wide.

Please note that the company has ceased to trade with immediate effect and any voicemail / messages will not be read or dealt with.

Our corporate recovery licensed insolvency practitioners:

Redman Nichols Butler, The Chapel, Bridge Street, Driffield, East Yorkshire, YO25 5DA Tel: [phone]

Simon Care: 23rd Apr 2018 11:22:00",
   So is it true that Simon Care was involved as an organiser?

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 03:08 PM

Subject: RE: The Improper Folk Festival (PickeringUK)
From: GUEST,OldNicKilby - PM
Date: 07 Aug 08 - 05:05 AM

I have done many of this organisers Model Engineering and Wood Shows and every one has been really well run with great staff and the RIGHT attitude. I think that we can be sure that Simon will do his very best to make sure that this event will be a cracker. The venue is new clean and light and has a really good feel to it.
I reckon that this could end up being a very proper do.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Acorn4
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 03:12 PM

One of the problems is the fact that many of the organisers are getting into their seventies and there is a lack of younger volunteers willing to take things on.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 03:14 PM

So was Simon Care involved in either Pickering or Beverley?
or is the Simon mentioned in the 2008 Pickering above, somebody else completely, these are questions, it may be that Simon Cares name on the Beverley Festival statement is a mistake, and it may be that the Pickering organiser who appears to be called Simon was completely different were completely different

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 03:37 PM

Is Simon Care who appears to have put his name at the bootom of a statement regarding Beverley festival have any connection to any other Simon Care, there appears to be an organiser called SimonCare who is involved with Bromyard festival, is this a different person? these are questions not accusations , it may be a complete coinicidence

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: GUEST,Simon Care
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 03:52 PM

Hi Guys,

Simon Care here. Just to clear up any confusion. I have not, and never had any connection to Beverley Festival. I am the membership secretary for the Association of Festival Organisers, and we were asked to share the news that Beverley Folk Festival had ceased trading to our members. The reason my name is at the bottom of the news item is because i shared the news item on our website.

I would be very grateful if you could remove any comments that might lead people to believe that i have, or have ever had, any involvement with Beverley Festival

Kind regards
Simon Care

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 03:57 PM

Simon, I was asking for clarification, I am pleased that you are nothing whatsoever to do with Beverley Festival.
The wording on the statement was unclear,I thought it was unlikely to be you, but in print it looked as if there was a connection
please accept my apologies

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: GUEST,Simon Care
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 03:59 PM

No need for apology.
Take care
Simon

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: GUEST,Brenda
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 04:13 AM

Just to clarify a point. Alcester folk festival was never run by a big committee but manfully run by Marj Stanley and the only reason she has had to give up is because the camping field has been sold and some of the venues have also closed down. Not being able to find replacements she has regrettably had to throw in the towel.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 04:50 AM

Marj Stanley did a good job.
The problem lies with festival such as Pickering and Beverley, that took and have taken money from customers, and have not refunded. that is immoral.
I understand Alcesters problem with venues, The Festival that I organise has lost a venue resulting in reduced sponsorship, that i had not anticipated, however IF NECESSARY i will have to cover that myself.    2017 Alcester was charging 55.00, 2018 Beverley was over 100.
Has there been any statement regarding refunding., from Alcester.
In my experience as an organiser the major up front payments are Festival insurance.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 04:54 AM

Sidmouth does not make money per se. It does pay people to do things, AFAIK like ticketing.

Steve Heap mortgaged his house to pay off debts for the year it was rained on heavily. Had his business acumen not paid off he would not have been recompensed. I didn't go in the years he had control of it because of misgivings about the business model. But I support it now, and ironically (now) Towersey festival which is moving away from folk, so much so that the headline artists masquerading as folk (because their pop career has dried up) are paid individually more than ALL the dance bands for the whole festival. If Jordy is reading this, be assured, when the dance bands are neglected I can easily neglect the festival.

There you have a clue to the demise of festivals. If they serve a market niche, they need to continue serving that niche. And rely on that niche surviving. And be alive to other nice niches that can be served as a back-up to the demise of others.

FWIW I happen to know that Upton upon Severn FF 4-7 May & "not for profit" survives on the goodwill of the committee, and the town. See ya there.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 05:48 AM

Really theres two sorts of folk festivals - the ones that are about booking big name guests, and ones that are a sort of community effort.

The second type has to reflect what the locals want, and generally it depends on strong minded local individuals who pragmatically do what they can.

The first type has got kudos for those artists deemed important enough to rate one of these prestige bookings. But in a way its a symbiotic thing. Really it depends on how active those artists and their agents/record companies are. I think it behoves them to at least mention the gig on their gig listing, maybe for the less popular artists - e-mailing a press kit to local press and folk programmes, if there are any left. Costs nothing except the effort these days. No postage costs etc as there used to be. If you have a following - they shoulsd at least have the option not to come.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 08:18 AM

Is anyone, anywhere actually making a quick buck from running a folk festival?

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 08:43 AM

that is not the point Howard, the point is that two festivals have closed, Pickering and Beverley, owing money to customers and cancelling guest artists, it appears Beverley owed a debt from the previous year, should they have cancelled the festival after 2017,instead of taking customers money for season tickets? if they were in debt,
Howard how would you feel if you had paid 130 and lost your money?Howard it may be in the caso of Pickering that the organiser thought he could make money[ or as you put it make a quick buck, who knows . The fact is cuistomers who bought season or festival tickets were not refunded, is that morally right,Howard?

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 09:25 AM

I think a point worth making is, there seems to be a pattern of minor localised commercialised 'community' festivals springing up
that fail to reappear in following years...

The one's I've noticed in my area book hopeless hasbeen pop acts, and covers bands,
then look stupid promoting them in the local papers
as exciting famous chart topping pop/rock/folk acts..
These festivals are a joke...

Prebook ticket prices are just silly amounts... especially the 'VIP' packages...

Another one has had to call it off this year after problems with venues..
Don't know how they are dealing with refunds because frankly I don't care, and wish they'd stop and go away for ever...

Genuinely good local community music events in parks here used to be excellent,
giving opportunities for local bands and solo singers to perform on real stages with good PAs.
But Council funding was cut as tory austerity bit in, [and the park toilets closed down...]
and now there's nothing but these poxy wannabe promoter's festivals of hoplessness..

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 02:13 PM

I don't know the exact circumstances around Beverley, but if they had reasonable expectations of receiving sponsorship which would have allowed them to meet their debts then they were not acting irresponsibly in planning another festival. Presumably the racecourse, having apparently not been paid for last year, would not have accepted their booking for this year unless they thought the money would be there.

Yes of course it's unfortunate that people who have paid for tickets will not be refunded, but once a company goes into liquidation it's out of the directors' hands, and any assets have to be distributed between all the creditors in accordance with insolvency law.

Is it morally right that volunteer organisers who devote their time to putting on a festival for nothing more than the love of it should face financial ruin if things go wrong? The festival owes tens of thousands, and why should ticket holders be any more entitled to a refund than other creditors? Yes, I would be disappointed if I had paid for a ticket and lost that money, but I would be more disappointed if the organisers were to lose their homes as as result.

None of this, so far as I can see, is due to anyone trying to make a "quick buck" as you put it, and I'd again ask if anyone is managing to make a quick buck from running folk festivals? I very much doubt it, most seem to be run by hard-working volunteers for little or no reward.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 02:30 PM

The reason "folk" is on the wane, is that it has reached the depths of very bad and very boring pop music.
There is little inspiration and no presentation, I listened to the folk programme on BBC radio last night and it was frighteningly bad.
Fusion of musical styles, the all pervasive introspection in the new writing, warbling tuneless voices singing about nothing in particular.
No Balls, no inspiration, no participation!.....Folk music is supposed to bring people together, to inspire, to make them FEEL something.......I fear the music is beyond help in this country.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 03:36 PM

Oh, ffs. It is coming to something when even old fogeys on Mudcat are complaining that folk isn't like it was in the good old days. There are times I think I have opened a Monty Python sketch!

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 03:44 PM

DtG - if you look at Heavy Metal [or Djent as some kids call it's modern version] websites..

You'll see 14 year old metal headz moaning it's not as good now as it was in their youth 2 weeks ago...!!!

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 04:16 PM

:-D

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 04:17 PM

Interestingly I thought it was one of tgebest Radio 2 Folk Programmes for a while. Young Uns, Calan, The Turbans to mention just three excellent bands

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 06:24 PM

Howard, I have not said anything about making a quick buck in this thread.
ticket holders are morally entitled to a refund if you think otherwise you are without morals

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Apr 18 - 06:27 PM

Howrd I cannot find any posts where I used those words, you owe me an apology.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:14 AM

I think you have made your personal preferences clear Joe, but that does not address the on going demise of folk music.
I feel ordinary people(not the members of an elite little club)are thoroughly bored by what is presently produced and served up as folk music.
The pop process is in fact producing a lot of much better material.
and better performers.....Bands like Ardcade Fire and performers /writers like Adele.....are more "Folk" than folk.

Nice to see you Dave, but you may find it more difficult to indulge your interests in this section.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: GUEST,Akenaton.
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:15 AM

Last post by me

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Mr Red
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:25 AM

It is the job of old fogies to complain how it is not like it was.

In fact the complaints about it not being as good as it was........... are












not as good as they used to be when I was part of that movement when it really was the good old days (despite what the old fogies were saying about us then)

Tradition eh? What is it like?

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:43 AM

Nostalgia ain't what it used to be. Even the arguments are not as good as in the old days :-)

There is no demise of folk music. There may be an evolution or shift in perception but folk music has, is and always will be with us. It is only the idea of what folk music was or should be that is affected and that is a purely personal view.

This thread is about the closure of folk festivals though so a sortee into the realms of what is folk is probably the wrong direction for it.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 04:16 AM

Sandman: Howard, I have not said anything about making a quick buck in this thread.

Er, I think you did, right at the top of the thread:


Sandman: Beverley has closed and Alcester has closed.
The closure of Beverley is reminiscent of the closure of Pickering a few years ago, is this the result of business entrepreneurs trying to make a quick buck?

So:

Sandman: Howrd I cannot find any posts where I used those words, you owe me an apology.

Nope, I don't think he does.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 04:22 AM

It was a question not a statement, do you not understand the difference a question is an attempt to discuss, a statement is presenting it as a fact.
I asked a question.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 04:30 AM

Back on the actual topic:

Yes, festivals are closing, but new ones are also opening. I spent some time late last year approaching festivals just in the south-west of the UK (basically Devon, Dorset, Somerset and parts of Cornwall)on behalf of a friend who was looking to perform at some of them. I was amazed at how many there are in just that small corner of the UK. Many of them are very local, and "not for profit". Several (like Bridport, now in its second year, and only a stone's throw from Sidmouth)are run in support of a named local charity (Air Ambulance in the case of Bridport).

One reason for some failing may in fact be the sheer number running now. On any one summer weekend that I looked at over those 4 counties, there were likely to be between 3-6 festivals labelling themselves as folk festivals, or incorporating significant "folky" elements. Many appear to be run on a shoestring, and teeter on the edge of viability. Those relying on a main sponsor or significant grant funding are definitely exposed financially, given how quickly and ruthlessly funding bodies can change their priorities.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 06:10 AM

RIP Burnham on sea Folk Fest...

That was one festival I made special effort to attend over the years it ran
[ok - a bonus having family and a free place to kip near the town..]

Very well run free festival, across several pubs & clubs in town, in the street, and the park.
Nothing at all pretentious or gratingly alternative hippy upper middle class
[like some other SW folk fests...]

A damn good fun weekend of very varied folk[ish] music and activities...

Closed down a couple of years ago while it was still seemingly on top..
The official reason given was if I recall,
less funding available to maintain the quality,
but most significantly, the volunteer organizers were getting older and exhausted running it...

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Howard Jones
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 07:24 AM

Dick, with respect your very first post which started this thread said:

Subject: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman - PM
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 05:01 AM

Beverley has closed and Alcester has closed.
The closure of Beverley is reminiscent of the closure of Pickering a few years ago, is this the result of business entrepreneurs trying to make a quick buck?

Be that as it may, I think the problem is that some festivals get caught up in a vicious circle where they feel that they have to become bigger and better to compete with other festivals so the costs rise, so they have to spend even more to bring in more paying visitors. And, without implying criticism of any individuals whether at Beverley or elsewhere, they are often being run in their spare time by people who perhaps don't have much other experience of running a business. The other problem is that they are often far too dependent on external funding as ticket sales aren't sufficient, which makes them vulnerable.

On the other hand, there is no shortage of folk festivals of all sizes and many seem to be running successfully. It is disappointing for all concerned when one fails, especially for those who will lose money, but overall the festival scene looks fairly healthy.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 07:50 AM

Yes, festivals come and festivals go.
Here in Scotland, the majority are run by unpaid volunteers.
Some enjoy the benefit of local business sponsorship or Council grants, but none of these sources can be relied upon to go on for ever.
Some have died because of "fallings out" of one sort or another (e.g.disagreements, or just people wanting to hand on the job of organising, but no-one to take it on.)
Some have down-sized considerably to continue as lower budget gatherings.
And some have been re-incarnated, e.g Killin Festival: Ceilidh Culture, followed by Tradfest in Edinburgh, after a longish gap after the former Edinburgh Folk Festival had its demise.
A good number are organised by folk clubs, others are not.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Johnny J
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 08:19 AM

I could tell stories about several now defunct festivals but much of the information would be based on gossip. Also, it would be unfair to revisit their woes here.

However, I'd suggest issues arise when festivals grow too big and too quickly and the correct machinery and "checks" aren't properly in place. There shouldn't really be an excuse for getting into a position where creditors are disadvantaged whether they be ticket customers, musicians, venues, or whoever. The list could go on.

Before moving to the next stage, organisers should be sure that they have sufficient funding or will have to cover all their outlays. If in doubt, do nowt.

The majority of festivals which cease to function do so with the organisers still able to holfd their heads high. Unfortunately, there have been one or two exceptions over the years.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Johnny J
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 08:32 AM

Further re the "local folk club"..

In Scotland, the majority of festivals are run by volunteers as TB suggests but not necessarily by the local club or even local enthusiasts.

That's not to say they aren't "au fait" with the local area and music, of course. They may be based in nearby towns or connected with a particular genre of music, have specialist skills and so on.

For instance, much of the organisation of Girvan Folk Festival over the years was by members of Kilmarnock Folk Club although local folkies have also been involved too.

The Trad on The Tyne festival was actually organised by The Haddington Pipe Band but it was by no means a piping Festival.

I believe Newcastleton now has a folk club and their organisers "may"(?) have some input but it was originally started by the local fiddle and accordion club. However, various people and factions have been involved in its organisation over the years from the locality itself and further afield.
I could think of other examples.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 08:58 AM

At Swinton we always ran within the budget of funding. Ticket sales were a minor part of the budget and an added bonus. When we got fed up of jumping through the funding hoops we dropped it to a low key festival in the club and when 2 of the three organisers left for pastures new someone else took up the baton. I don't think it runs any more but that had nothing to do with commercialism.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 09:39 AM

Howard it was a question not a statement, do you not know the difference.I have never stated
"The closure of Beverley is reminiscent of the closure of Pickering a few years ago, is this the result of business entrepreneurs trying to make a quick buck"
I ASKED A QUESTION please not the question mark, this is what i posted "the closure of Beverley is reminiscent of the closure of Pickering a few years ago, is this the result of business entrepreneurs trying to make a quick buck?"

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 09:47 AM

FFS Sandman you asked "the closure of Beverley is reminiscent of the closure of Pickering a few years ago, is this the result of business entrepreneurs trying to make a quick buck?"

And Howard replied

None of this, so far as I can see, is due to anyone trying to make a "quick buck" as you put it.

A "make a quick buck" is exactly as you put it in your question.

Just move on.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 09:48 AM

But Dick, you went on to say that you have never used the words "make a quick buck". Whether it was a question or not is irrelevant as you had, obliviously, used those very words. Which is what was stated.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 09:52 AM

Has The Sandman never heard of rhetorical questions?

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 10:07 AM

for goodness sake, not for the first time[Pickering]people have lost 130 if they bought a ticket and you only care about scoring points.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 10:25 AM

Whatever.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 12:33 PM

whatever ? no , BEVERLEY FESTIVAL owed a debt to Beverley racecourse, it is a criminal offence and immoral to continue trading while insolvent, people bought tickets in good faith costing 130 sterling, they will not be refunded, and you say whatever, this is disgraceful and will lead to people having a lack of faith in buying tickets in advance for festivals, also guest artistsa could have found alternative work and now ill be out of pocket.
and you say whatever, and appear to think scoring points more important.
What should have happened was that the 2018 festival was cancelled tthe end of 2017,before any money for tickets was taken, and a singers based festival was organised instead

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 12:58 PM

I might be misunderstanding the accounts posted in another thread and could be wrong otherwise but I doubt they could do that. Current assets and current liabilities are around the same in 2017 but net worth plummeted towards -£50K starting in 2012 (building up for the move to the bigger venue, big loans???) and I'd guess they had to try to continue running as they were because of that?

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 01:11 PM

Dick, it seems, has no understanding of limited company liability.

I doubt that big folk names will find it difficult to find other venues to play at.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 01:17 PM

No points to score, Dick. No point in your tirade either. A pretty pointless exercise all in all. What do you propose to do or want anyone on here to do about it?

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:14 PM

Actually Dick does Morris-ey, and I am not convinced that you do. The penalties for directors of a company trading while insolvent are severe, and it makes little difference whether they are unpaid volunteers or not.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:16 PM

Common mistake GUEST, when the gig is up its time to shut up shop. They should definitely have shut up shop after the 2017 festival if they couldn't pay the racecourse bill, and probably earlier. Just keeping going as if nothing is wrong has landed people in debt, prison or worse.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:24 PM

Not sure you do either David. Trading whilst insolvent is, ultimately, a matter for the Courts and the directors of a not for profit organisation will almost never be taken to court and, if they were, would, at worst, be disqualified from directorship for a year or so.

Do you believe the Directors of Carillion will face severe penalties?

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:27 PM

depends who can afford the best lawyers...??

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Mr Red
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 03:09 AM

[Pickering]people have lost 130 if they bought a ticket

Yer pays yer money and takes yer Pickering.

It is a fact of life, even big companies try it on. One look at BTs service. They charge for a barely acceptable service knowing and admitting it is not fully viable at other junctures. And they can't find water on the line**, after 14 days, having promised 3 days. I think they have found something and assume they have found all instances. Classic mug bet.

** there is an ongoing problem with the GFs line, I am an electronic engineer and have experienced this exact problem before. Do they listen? They don't have to believe someone they don't know, but it behooves then to pass on the information, and do they?

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 03:21 AM

Don't know about Carillion, if there is a case brought by the department of business, then the issue will be whether the directors did or should have known that the company was insolvent, and still took money from customers such as hospital trusts. If the answer to that is yes, then they will face severe penalties. In the case of the folk festival the disqualification is irrelevant, but the issue is that directors can be made personally liable for the debts.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Howard Jones
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 09:03 AM

What Dick appears to be saying is that a festival shouldn't begin to plan the next year's event before it's paid off the debts from the previous year. That is an ideal position which I suspect is not realistic in practice, and under those conditions I doubt many festivals could go ahead. Organising any event, but especially a large and complex one like a festival, means entering into obligations and incurring costs up-front in the expectation that in time there will be sufficient income to cover them. That is not in itself immoral or illegal, and is the financial model for a great many businesses which can't rely on a steady income stream but are dependent on a single event to bring in income.

The debts are really a matter between the festival and its creditors. In Beverley's case the racecourse appears to have been willing to extend credit, not only for the previous year but to allow this year's event to go ahead. The problem has not been caused by debts being called in but by the loss of anticipated income because funding has been withdrawn. This is something to which many festivals are vulnerable.

In my opinion the organisers would only have been acting immorally if they had sold tickets when they should have known there was a good chance that the festival would not go ahead. If the funding was always uncertain but the decided to go ahead in the unreasonable hope that it would materialise, then they may well have been acting irresponsible, and possibly were trading unlawfully and could face sanctions. If not, then they took the only course open to them once the funding was withdrawn, by going into liquidation.

Everybody loses out when a festival is cancelled. Actually I feel lesat sorry for the musicians (despite being one myself who has had gigs cancelled). They are not out of pocket, and although they have lost future income they had expected to receive they have a chance to get other gigs. Ticket-holders who paid by credit card may be protected under under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act

However most festivals are operating on a financial knife-edge and it is not surprising that from time to time they go under.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Allan Conn
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 09:13 AM

In Kelso we had out first festival last year and it went well and we just made a bit of a profit - so we are repeating it this year. It is a risk putting things on but we did it the other way round though in that we built the funds up over several years so we had plenty to cover everything should we not manage to sell tickets etc. The club members play in the Cobbles Inn every week after out floor spot session which is in a nearby hotel. The tin goes at our early session plus later round the pub for donations towards bringing music to the town and it is amazing what is collected through the year.

http://www.kelsofolkfest.org/

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 09:55 AM

Howard Jones:What Dick appears to be saying is that a festival shouldn't begin to plan the next year's event before it's paid off the debts from the previous year. That is an ideal position which I suspect is not realistic in practice, and under those conditions I doubt many festivals could go ahead. Organising any event, but especially a large and complex one like a festival, means entering into obligations and incurring costs up-front in the expectation that in time there will be sufficient income to cover them. That is not in itself immoral or illegal, and is the financial model for a great many businesses which can't rely on a steady income stream but are dependent on a single event to bring in income.

The debts are really a matter between the festival and its creditors. In Beverley's case the racecourse appears to have been willing to extend credit, not only for the previous year but to allow this year's event to go ahead. The problem has not been caused by debts being called in but by the loss of anticipated income because funding has been withdrawn. This is something to which many festivals are vulnerable.

In my opinion the organisers would only have been acting immorally if they had sold tickets when they should have known there was a good chance that the festival would not go ahead. If the funding was always uncertain but the decided to go ahead in the unreasonable hope that it would materialise, then they may well have been acting irresponsible, and possibly were trading unlawfully and could face sanctions. If not, then they took the only course open to them once the funding was withdrawn, by going into liquidation.

Exactly this! A sensible précis of the situation, rather than the emotive bluster we've been getting from some quarters. So I thought it would bear re-quoting.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 10:15 AM

An excellent summary from Howard. I recall being told that a major festival takes something like 18 months to set up with the booking of top-line acts and large venues.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 11:16 AM

Thank you for that excellent post above, Howard. However, would it not therefore have been more honest of the organisers, certainly in this particular case - and any other festivals which may be "operating on a financial knife-edge" - to state from the outset that there may be an element of financial risk in purchasing tickets in advance ?
Apart from sympathising with those who bought tickets in good faith and have lost their money, my concern is that this one instance could have a "ripple" effect, and spread to other festivals, where customers may be reluctant to part with their hard-earned up-front, thus perhaps putting other events in jeopardy.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 01:13 PM

David Carter

The only circumstance in which the directors of a not for profit company limited by guarantee would be held liable personally for debts would be if there were some fraudulent activity.

Are you alleging such?

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 01:44 PM

"
Howard Jones:What Dick appears to be saying is that a festival shouldn't begin to plan the next year's event before it's paid off the debts from the previous year. That is an ideal position which I suspect is not realistic in practice, and under those conditions I doubt many festivals could go ahead."
Simply, bad business practice, and well wide of the mark,

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 01:52 PM

Do Pter and Howard Jones have anty experience of running Festivals?
I do, and that is not how it should be done or in my experience is done.
If Howards business idea was common practice more festivals would have gone to the wall, and the customers faith in purchasing tickets in advance would be very little.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 01:53 PM

I've good mates, who have a lifetime actively organising grassroots community events..
But their positive enthusiasm outreaches their grasp of, and patience with, bureaucratic accounting/tax/insurance/etc regulations..

They started off back in the 70s when you could just slap an event together spontaneously, with scant regard or respect for 'officialdom'...

Sometimes I feel anxious what would happen to them if a spiteful local tory busybody
decided to investigate their well meant pro-community activities...

The local elderly tories used to constantly try to shut down our teenage music events
until some of the greedy buggers relised they could make money themselves from gig promotions of 'approved' music..

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:07 PM

I forgot to type "FREE events"...[but donations on the door to help cover costs gratefully accepted..]...

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:15 PM

Folk club organisers in my experience,generally speaking, budget carefully , they do not promise fees they cannot produce,that has been my experience., this is also the casewith 98 percent of Folk Festival organisers.
My Ex perience of festival organisation is 9 years involvement on committee of Ballydehob Jazz Festival from its beginning [although Iam no longer involved], and 7 years experience in www.fastnet Maritime.com.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:22 PM

What concerns me is the small minority eg Pickering and Beverley, who take folk enthusiats money and do not refund it, there is an organisation called the Association of festival organisers, I believe Beverley was a member? is that so? and if Beverley was a member do they have any power to prevent this from happening again?

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Mr Red
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 04:18 AM

Probably not

But it may be a wake-up call for them.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 05:34 AM

You are making sound like the organisers of these festivals deliberately set out to rip people off, Dick. I am sure that they are mortified that they cannot refund the money and I am equally sure that it was just a series of unfortunate events coupled with poor management that caused the issue. No one has the power to prevent it happening again but, as Mr Red says, it could be a wake up call. Maybe more organisers should consider insuring their events against such circumstances? 25+ years of helping to run Swinton folk club and festival has taught me that you cannot foresee the unforeseen!

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 05:51 AM

I'd agree with the saturation. Folk Festivals used to be a spring to autumn season.
Now there's probably more than one to choose every weekend, thinning out punters at festivals and thinning out club going too.
Beverley already folded in the past and was reborn. So did Durham. Sidmouth was restructured. Cleethorpes was variously rehashed then folded. (First festival I ever went to) What ever happened to Crewe & Nantwich? (for example)I've no idea. I went every year but that was long ago.
Festivals folding isn't new.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 06:18 AM

Festivals do not always fold because of financial reasons. I was involved with organising Crewe and Nantwich festival 1976 to 1980, and it continued for a few years after my involvement. Then it returned in the 1980s with new organisers. Certainly, in its first phase, it ended because the organisers had other things to do - such as families, careers etc. Nantwich now hosts an annual Jazz and Blues festival at Easter time, and a Words and Music festival in October. Things change.

Derek

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 06:24 AM

Where can you get insurance for running out of money?

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 06:45 AM

I'm sure insurance companies would love a new way to take your money off you and then make up new excuses why they should not pay out :-)

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Howard Jones
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 07:44 AM

Dick, you're right that I've never run a folk festival (although I have run smaller events), and if you're saying that doing so should put me under a moral obligation to be personally responsible for repaying customers out of my own pocket, while getting no personal benefit if it makes a profit, then you can be sure I never will.

Personally I don't believe that volunteer organisers should be expected to repay tens of thousands of pounds themselves should things go wrong, especially for something which may be outside their control such as a withdrawal of sponsorship. Neither do I think it morally right to favour repaying ticket-holders (who may at least have some protection under consumer law) ahead of other creditors, who may be suffering greater financial loss and actual hardship. That is why there is insolvency law, to try to repay the company's debts in a way which is fair to everyone.

Paying for something in advance is always a risk, whether buying tickets, booking a holiday, or buying something on-line or by mail-order. There are advantages from doing so, but if the company goes bust you could lose your money. These recent failures are a reminder to pay with a credit card where possible, as this may provide some protection.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Johnny J
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 08:16 AM

"Paying for something in advance is always a risk"

It many cases, that's the only option.

e.g. Travelling by air is not the same as getting a taxi. You don't just take the journey and pay the pilot on arrival.... and I realise that's an extreme example.

More seriously though, the options for purchasing tickets in advance or even otherwise of tickets are becoming much more restricted these days. Far fewer outlets where you can do this directly without web sites or third parties and just "turning up" isn't ideal either.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 10:18 AM

You are making sound like the organisers of these festivals deliberately set out to rip people off, Dick"
noDave that your interpretation, Iam stating facts two festivals have not refunded ticket purchasers, i said this

What concerns me is the small minority eg Pickering and Beverley, who take folk enthusiats money and do not refund it

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Howard Jones
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 12:56 PM

Dick, what are you actually suggesting they should do? I don't know the circumstances at Pickering. Beverley Folk Festival is in liquidation, and it is now out of the directors' hands. They cannot refund ticket sales, and the liquidator appointed to administer it will have to go through the proper legal process to try to repay all the creditors.

Are you suggesting the organisers should refund them out of their own pockets? And are you suggesting that ticket holders should take priority over other creditors? Please be clear what you are saying should be done.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 01:06 PM

It still sounds like the organisers, in your words 'take folk enthusiats money and do not refund it' on purpose but if you say that is not what you mean, I accept that.

So, what would you have them do? They don't have the money to refund it and, even if they did, they are now legally bound by the receivers to not trade. That includes giving refunds.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 01:11 PM

Saying this as someone who has never been involved with a festival. I think in hindsight the only thing you can say is they shouldn't have run but, going by the comments here and what I can make out, I think that if I had no reason to believe the sponsor would drop out, I'd have ran the festival.

Whether I'd have got in to the position of heavy debt that, rightly or wrongly, I'm attributing to over ambitious expansion in the first place is another question. I suspect that depending on outlook, I'd have been too cautious or lacking in ambition for that. (That and, selfishly, I've more interest in what's happening in the pub than in a main stage headline act).

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 03:23 PM

From the point of view of folk enthusiasts having faith in festival organisers it would be better if festival ticket holders were refunded, that would also be the correct moral thing to do.
however Howeard if you think it more important that other creditors are paid first ,
I will ask you one question how would Howard Jones feel if his ticket was not refunded,what do you suggest Howard?

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 04:00 PM

I am not alleging anything Morris-ey, because I do not know whether the directors were aware that the company was insolvent when they sold tickets for the 2018 festival. I believe that in their position I would have known this, given access to the companies house website and a pocket calculator, but I am not in a position to say whether of not the directors knew.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Andy7
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 08:02 PM

The important questions are, whether there was ever criminal intent, and whether the organisers ever personally pocketed and kept ticket money, despite a festival being cancelled.

The Law is there, rightfully, to protect innocent and vulnerable people from injury and loss. But there always needs to be a sense of proportion.

If the organisers of a cancelled festival are enthusiastic and well-meaning volunteers, giving their time for free just for the love of the music ... and if the only cash that ticket purchasers lost was the price of their tickets (sad though that obviously is) ... is anyone seriously going to suggest that those volunteer organisers should be financially ruined to recompense hundreds/thousands of ticket purchasers, if it all goes wrong?

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 02:51 AM

From the point of view of folk enthusiasts having faith in festival organisers it would be better if festival ticket holders were refunded, that would also be the correct moral thing to do.
however Howeard if you think it more important that other creditors are paid first, Dick Miles

It would appear that Dick Miles cannot recognise, or simply ignores, the fact that when an independent business venture (Which is what a Limited liability Company is in law) goes into receivership there is a strictly enforced procedure put in train. So with reference to your words quoted above Dick, it does not matter a jot what Howeard [sic] thinks is more important, what happens is governed by law. HMRC gets first dibs on any cash or assets held and they get their due in full, there then exists a strict pecking order of who gets paid what and when.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: r.padgett
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 02:54 AM

The wider issue is why Festivals are closing? Beverley folk club had a good following and started the festival led by Chris Wade ~ and encompassed all aspects in dance, music sessions and concerts based city centre venues and a decent campsite (with basic showers) ~ Leisure centre came on board at some point too.

The folk club lost out to brewery policies on Music (Sam Smith ~ who seem to feel that beer quality was an issue and the true purpose that pubs are meeting places for ppl!and banned music!!

However fb has a page for Beverley fringe where in fact likes of Derek Waudby have been meeting for years during the now defunct Beverly folk festival ~ it really is down to people having big ambitions and not being aware that a folk festival is a participation venture and not a rock concert!!

Ray

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 03:58 AM

Dick. The organisers cannot give refunds. The festival is in receivership bound by the rules of bankruptcy. They must already feel awful about that and I am sure they would rather it had not happened. But it did and there is nothing they can do about it now.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 05:08 AM

If I had bought a ticket then obviously I would be disappointed that the festival won't be taking place. I would of course like to get a refund, but I would realise that this is unlikely and that I must take my place in the queue along with all the other creditors. If I'd paid by credit card I would try to get a refund from my bank.

What I would not want is for the organisers to face financial hardship and perhaps personal bankruptcy by making refunds, which could amount to many thousands of pounds, out of their own pockets. That is an unfair and, in my opinion, unreasonable expectation to put upon volunteers who put a lot of time and effort into organising these events for our enjoyment and for no personal reward.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: henryclem
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 06:15 AM

Had the organisers opted to refund advance ticket buyers before going into liquidation then it is very likely that they would then have rendered themselves personally liable for those amounts, especially as the receiver would interpret their decision to refund as evidence of their realisation that there was enough of a financial shortfall to necessitate cancellation.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 08:07 AM

There are too many folk festivals, so it is inevitable that some will fall by the wayside.
I also think that this over supply contributes towards the death of folk clubs

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Johnny J
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 08:33 AM

The bigger ones also are responsible for "skewing" people's perception of what actually is folk and traditional music and/or what is popular.

For example award winners will often be those artists who are booked for the large festivals and, therefore, likely to be seen by the largest audiences while those performers who continue to play folk clubs, smaller concerts and festivals are more likely to be overlooked by the "mainstream" media and population in general.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 08:51 AM

Folk clubs: Struggles with venues and internal splits are among reasons I've been aware of.

On the latter, I do know of one town where last time I read, there are 2 clubs with different aims running on the same night with both apparently claiming the true lineage from the original club which had hit a bad patch.

Sadly, these things can happen. Years ago, I was involved in a new start up where shall I say there wasn't universal good will towards an existing club in the next nearby town. We had to have a vote as to whether or not it should run on the same night. In that case, different nights to enable people to support both won.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 09:18 AM

People are confusing organisers with directors here. There are three current directors listed at companies house. I suspect there are many more organisers.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 03:56 PM

Yes, apparently the volunteer organisers were as much in the dark as everybody else and fell foul of what happened, having actually asked people to perform. The directors must at least take the brunt.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Apr 18 - 04:36 PM

"There are too many folk festivals, so it is inevitable that some will fall by the wayside.
I also think that this over supply contributes towards the death of folk clubs"

Nail, head.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 May 18 - 03:23 AM

Too many folk festivals? A bit like village fetes were, the mobility of the car sorted that - too many other unrelated attractions, easily reachable, these days.

The consequence is that people are defined by their tribe which is increasingly less geographical.

There must be a similar effect going on with the types of Folk entertainment provided, the world changes and events have to reflect that or disappear. Sad but inevitable. It is just a gamble if you want to predict who/what/where/when. Was it ever thus?

In political changes there are always innocent loosers, and not ones that even the Left can be proud of. Ask me for an instance - I can tell you.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 May 18 - 03:40 AM

Directors not volunteers would have made the bad business decision of continuing the festi8val on a high budget when in debt, instead of running a festival bases on singarounds and music sessions, ther result isd customers who in good faith lost 130 will not be refunded, a replay of Pickering which is geographically close in Yorkshire

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 May 18 - 03:50 AM

the last comment is a fact, were the directors the same people?

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 01 May 18 - 05:02 AM

Something that just occurred to me after reading the above. Would the 3 directors have been paid ?

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 May 18 - 05:52 AM

I can't see any evidence in the documents on the companies house website that the directors have been paid.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 May 18 - 07:08 AM

The original statement about the closure of Beverley referred to the directors as volunteers, that suggests to me that they were not paid. There were no doubt other people involved in organising it, but the directors are the ones who are formally responsible.

There may well have been some poor decisions, but that is easy to say with hindsight. It is possible that the seeds were sown when the festival moved out of town to the racecourse. I don't know the reasons for that (perhaps Sam Smith's opposition to live music had ruled out too many venues), but the move towards larger and perhaps more concert-based festivals may carry greater financial risks without necessarily being more attractive to customers. Personally, I would stay away from that sort of festival as I prefer smaller and more participatory ones.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 May 18 - 08:38 AM

By contrast A Festival that has been run by the same oraniser for over 50 years Saltburn which was poreviously at Redcar is an example of a well directed festival

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 May 18 - 08:42 AM

here is my original statement, at no point do I or mention that directors were volunteers, or are you referring to some other statement made by someone else on a different thread, if so, Howard,pleasec make that clear
,.Subject: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman - PM
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 05:01 AM

Beverley has closed and Alcester has closed.
The closure of Beverley is reminiscent of the closure of Pickering a few years ago, is this the result of business entrepreneurs trying to make a quick buck?
Perhaps, the UK Folk Revival, needs to give more support and realise the importance of the enthusiast who runs the weekly guest folk club, who is running a community based operation.
And at the same time be more wary of trusting entrepreneurs who take over what had previously been an established well run Festival,I suspect many unfortunate people had been duped not realising the management had changed at Beverley Folk Festival, as there was no change of name

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 May 18 - 07:18 AM

I am referring to the original announcement issued by the festival that it would not be going ahead.

Beverley Festival cancelled

This clearly states that the directors are volunteers.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 03 May 18 - 03:40 AM

And, just to correct a couple of earlier posts, without naming names.
HMRC do not get "first dibs" on any remaining funds. This has not been the case since 2002.
HMRC are now grouped with all other 'unsecured creditors'.
For fuller details see 'Begbies Traynor' - Who gets paid first?

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 May 18 - 04:59 AM

Howrd, every festival has a CEO, the person or persons that made various financial decisions to continue when they should not have done or should have continued as an amateur [non paid enthusiasts]singers based festival.,
NOT TO BECONFUSED WITH Volunteers who assist in importasnt and necessary jobs ,but have no say in financial direction.
Howard please stop these semantics, you know very well that somebody made a decision , the Ceo may be no paid or may be paid it is irrelevant , they made a bad financial decision

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 03 May 18 - 11:51 AM

Semantics are crucially important in matters of Law.

Many festivals, as not-for-profit organisations, are Companies Limited by Guarantee.

The Directors are, generally, unpaid and gain no personal finacial advantage if the Festval is a huge success. Equally, they are protected from personal ruin if things go tits up.

If the powers that be determine these Directors have behaved fraudently (in a legal sense, not a moral sense) then they might be held personally liable.

I doubt either of the examples you quote fall into that category.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 May 18 - 03:06 AM

Dick, it is entirely relevant whether festival directors are unpaid. You started this discussion by asking about festival failures "is this the result of business entrepreneurs trying to make a quick buck?" This is your usual trick, you start a thread by making a provocative statement framed as a question, and when it is disputed you deny that you meant any such thing.

If the directors were unpaid volunteers then there is no question of them making any bucks, quick or slow, and any mistakes which may have been made cannot be blamed on personal greed. Legally they are not personally responsible for the debts and, in my opinion anyway, being volunteers with no financial interest also means they do not have a moral responsibility.

This is meant to be about festivals in general but it keeps coming back to Beverley. If the directors were trading unlawfully, that will no doubt emerge during the administration. However it is not necessarily unlawful or immoral to trade whilst in debt, if there is a reasonable expectation that the income will be generated in due course to meet those debts. This is how a great many businesses are funded, especially where the income is largely generated some time after costs have been incurred. We don't yet know if the directors at Beverley were acting reasonably when they believed that they would get the funding which has now been withdrawn, but no doubt that too will emerge in time.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 04 May 18 - 06:27 AM

Howard Jones: However it is not necessarily unlawful or immoral to trade whilst in debt, if there is a reasonable expectation that the income will be generated in due course to meet those debts. This is how a great many businesses are funded, especially where the income is largely generated some time after costs have been incurred.

Yes, that's exactly how a lot of businesses operate. When I ran my own business, I had to operate that way for quite a while before I was able to build up a sufficient financial cushion. I was buying air tickets, hardware, software, paying for hotels and other transport for my staff, and paying my staff and consultants monthly (30 days after invoicing for the consultants). Clients (often FTSE 100 listed companies) rarely paid me on 30 days....most strung out payments to at least 60, and in some cases longer, which meant I was continually in actual debt, though with a "reasonable expectation" that the income would appear later. In fact, several years later I was forced to liquidate the business after a large client suddenly went bust owing me several hundred thousand pounds, which I had "reasonably expected" would be forthcoming.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 11 Aug 20 - 05:00 PM

Was scrolling through this looking for some information on Beverley FF hen I came across Dick Miles posting from April regarding Whitby Folk Festival / Whitby Folk Week and the supposed involvement of Whitby Folk Club.
I can state categorically that Whitby Folk Club was at no time involved in the running of the annual festival. There was a good relationship between the two and the Folk Club details were listed in the Festival programme each year.
Juxst putting the record straight - yet again!

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 11 Aug 20 - 06:34 PM

Hi Malcolm, I can think of at least a couple of other places where there is both a Folk Club and a Folk Festival, each with their own management, constitution, bank account, Committee, etc. On the whole they work in harmony, and a good few people are involved in both, and support each other.
I remember this thread from when it came out in 2018, but who would have ever predicted then that we might be where we are now in 2020, with pretty well all festivals and folk club gigs cancelled? Let's just hope that the majority survive once we can safely get back to having such events again.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 11 Aug 20 - 07:12 PM

Doubtful if our Folk Club will reopen.

Two Festivals relied on fund raising through the Folk Club, they are cancelled this year and I doubt if they will be resurrected.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Aug 20 - 02:20 AM

Those festivals with a core of grass roots volunteers that can run on a shoestring will probably the first ones to emerge from the wreckage.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Aug 20 - 02:33 AM

Howard jones, i kmnow somebody who has still not received a refund for payment of tickets bought from pickering, that is not morally right.
   Malcolm Storey, you ran the festival in a business like way.
i am aware that whitby folk club did not take part in the organising of festival events,apart from theclub night during folk week.

in the last 2 years the situation has changed drastically due to the virus, it is doubtful a that entrpreneurs of the pickering kind who have still not repaid a ticket, will have the opportunity to rob people of their ticket money.
Malcolm Storey, please note, the post that initially mentions whitby folk club and whitby folk festival was not from me it was from jack campin
WHITBY FOLK FESTIVAL wad run by EFDSS and graham binless did a good job,and was honest, and in my experience always payed any promised fee, as far as i know Whitby folk club was not involved in organising the festival during his time., or Malcolms.
Malcolm did a good job too, and has stated that whitby folk club was not involved in organising anything other than the folk club night which occurred during the festival, i do recall that booked festival guests were asked to appear as special guests on the folk club night but as far as i am aware Whitby folk club never involved itself in any other aspects of the folk festival organisation. However Whitby folk club was involved as part of the festival in accomodating guest artists from the festival in to their folk club night during folk festival week, but that was the total extent of involvement.
I am not sure [it was a long time ago whether this was during EFDSS OR MALCOLMS time or both] i think it was both.
When the EFDSS ran the festival, i always received any promised expenses.
Malcolm took over the festival and it ran successfully for a long time.
What is far more important is that Pickering have still not paid for a refund of a ticket for their cancelled festival.

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Aug 20 - 03:44 AM

Steve, i agree

Subject: RE: Closure of Folk Festivals
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Aug 20 - 05:00 AM

there is a yorkshire saying , never do owt for nowt.
I do not think this is a trait to be proud of
Graham Binless was a gentleman and always paid my minimal expenses and i have met some other very decent yorkshire people
however i resent people that take advantage of other people.Festival organisers or anybody else.
no names no pack drill but those people know who they are, they are a very small minority on the folk scene but they do exist