BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.

Subject: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:26 PM

I really think it's time the term "conspiracy theory" was retired. We should just talk about "theories".

Virtually everything that happens in public in fact is a "conspiracy" insofar as it involves people talking together and planning together out of public view.

So all explanations from outside the magic circle are conspracy theories. Speculating that what a government says is false is no more a conspiracy theory than speculating that it might be true. The assertion by Russia that the British government might have responsible for the Salisbury events is clearly a conspiracy theory - but so is the assertion by the British government that the Russians were responsible. So are all the other suggestions as to what happened.

I'm not suggesting that we should throw our hands up about stuff like that and say all theories are equal, and no one can ever know the truth. Some theories stand up to scrutiny a lot better of than others. But what matters is that scrutiny; the facile use of the term "conspiracy theory" to dismiss some out of hand is sleight of hand.

Doing that can readily lead to stuff being accepted uncritically. Like the notion that one country can be assumed not to be guilty of foul play when that suits it, and that another can reasonably be assumed to be guilty.

What's important is to follow the actual evidence, and examine it as dispassionately as possible.

Subject: RE: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:27 PM

To BS please! I was sure I put that in my heading.

Subject: RE: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 12:46 PM

McG - Maybe it also applies equally up here in heated music disagreements
about behind the scenes decisions - BBC / Festivals / promoters / Record Labels etc....

Just send a duplicate thread down below into BS...

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 01:14 PM

Oy, one thread at a time on the subject, please. I moved this one downstairs.

I guess the term "conspiracy theory" may be used more often than it should be. But hey, it's a good term that describes a real phenomenon.

I guess I'd define "conspiracy theory" as a preposterous story that is widely accepted without legitimate proof. I mentioned sedevacantism in the current thread about a song about the pope(s). There is a very vocal group of Catholics who claim there has not been a valid Pope since the death of Pius XII in 1958, because the mainstream church has been heretical. Over the years, that whole thing has blown up into a pretty good conspiracy theory.

All the New World Order stuff is a good example of conspiracy theories.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 01:46 PM

And of course, there's a Wikipedia article on conspiracy theories that will give you some good ones. Talk radio shows in the U.S. are good brewing post for conspiracy theories. One of my mother-in-law's favorite radio hosts, Art Bell, died a couple weeks ago. He broadcasted from his home near Area 51 in Nevada.
In my travels, I once visited the Area 51 Truck Stop and Cathouse. No, I did not patronize the cats, but it's the closest gas station to Death Valley and I was very glad it was there.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:07 PM

Possibly the real issue is the overuse of the term "Conspiracy" and the unnecessary addition of the word 'theory' because it is an overshoot and confuses the issue. After all, when you say "conspiracy theory" is it the conspiracy that has the theory, or do you have a theory that there is a conspiracy?

Also, there is H.G. Wells' invention of The Open Conspiracy

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:14 PM

The trouble is that it gets used sometimes to imply that the official version is more than just a theory, which often is not the case.

The official version about Saddam's Weapons of Mass Destruction was very much a Conspiracy Theory, and one which was a lot further from the truth than theories of the time that disputed it. I think that's also quite conceivably the case in a number of current matters.

Under Trump I am afraid we can anticipate that a lot of official versions are going to be false, and that the actual truth is going to be denigrated as a conspiracy theory.

Pretty well always there is one conspiracy theory that actually is true.
..................
I wouldn't really regard the sedevacantists as comprising a conspiracy theory. I'd see them as a conspiracy. It's not so much that their ideas are daft, but that they are just wrong. Of course the people who hold them tend to be daft, but that's another matter. I get the impression they are more visible in the USA than they are here.

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:26 PM

And then, what's the difference between a conspiracy theory and an urban legend/myth? The Area 51 stuff is both - a conspiracy by Government to conceal from us the truth about all those Space Aliens. Hmmm. I wonder if the cats in the cathouse wear Space Alien catsuits.

And then there's the stuff about the black-uniformed United Nations troops arriving in black helicopters, and the moon landings that were faked by NASA.

Conspiracy theories can be very entertaining...in a scary sort of way.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 02:51 PM

Whatever you call them daft ideas can be fun, that's true. I wouldn't be without having a few Flat Earthists, so long as they aren’t in charge of navigation.

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: meself
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 03:11 PM

Joe, the way you're using 'conspiracy theory' is exactly the way that McGrath is complaining about. The term 'conspiracy theory' should just refer to speculation that there is a certain conspiracy - for example, there is a 'theory' that trump has conspired with Russia: it is, therefore, a 'conspiracy theory'. However, as soon as it is called that, it can be dismissed as wild nonsense, on the same level as the notion that lizard-men are running the world ... (well, there is a similarity there, come to think of it) ........

Similarly, if you are skeptical of the 'lone nut' explanation of the Kennedy assassination, then you "believe in conspiracy theories" - and you are the nut.

I agree that the term should be retired; it's too easily used to denigrate legitimate speculation/explanation as to who's doing what.

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 03:25 PM

The paradox is that the theory that Oswald killed Kennedy as a completely lone killer is virtually unique in that it does not allege any conspiracy, since you need at least two people to have a conspiracy.
............
Not so sure about that lizard man stuff - there seem an awful lot of reptiles in positions of power these days. Though Trump seems more of a slug-entity, like Jabba the Hutt.

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: Iains
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 03:35 PM

Any story gaining traction, that disputes the government line, is automatically labelled a conspiracy theory. We should really have wised up to this little trick by now!

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 07:04 PM

Who put you up to this Mac!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 07:53 PM

Meself, Wikipedia defines "conspiracy theory" as "an explanation of an event or situation that invokes an unwarranted conspiracy, generally one involving an illegal or harmful act carried out by government or other powerful actors. Conspiracy theories often produce hypotheses that contradict the prevailing understanding of history or simple facts. The term is often a derogatory one."

In other words, a conspiracy theory is a preposterous story of how some unseen force is taking us to hell in a handbasket. It does seem that in Internet forums, the term is being expanded to mean just about any explanation of things that the speaker thinks is stupid.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: meself
Date: 28 Apr 18 - 10:11 PM

Yes, but it is well known that I regard myself as a vastly superior authority to Wikipedia, though just slightly superior to the OED in matters lexicographical (that is a word, right?).

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: Iains
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 05:41 AM

I wonder if the mainstream or alternative media are spreading conspiracy theories about novichok?

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 06:52 AM

Latest conspiracy in Murdoch's bumwipe 'Sunday Times
Russia got Corbyn elected leader
Doncha love it!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Apr 18 - 02:57 PM

And that Wikipedia definition is what I distrust. It excludes the situation where the official version is itself a conspiracy theory, and implies that it cannot be wildly at odds with reality.

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 18 - 08:12 PM

The classic case was the Iraq War, where the official line was that there was a massive conspiracy involving Saddam and Weapons of Mass Destruction. Opponents of the war argued that that theory was fake, and that Western Governments were involved in a conspiracy to bring about a war.

And in the end it turned out that the conspiracy theory about Saddam, which sounded very plausible to many, was a fake, and the conspiracy theory about Western Governments, which on the face of it sounded crazy to many people, was the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: Donuel
Date: 02 May 18 - 09:27 AM

McG Point well taken

Let me tell you a story about fake news in TEXAS

In 2015 Russia put bot fake news on the internet something about Obama using martial law in Texas, when the truth was - there were regularly scheduled military exercises.

Russia used bots to explode a conspiracy bomb and put out fake news one both sides of the issue of ;martial law vs. the Constitution. THEN the right wing echo chamber mirrored the Russian bots and added something about UN troops in Texas.
Bannon chimed in with additional fake news injecting a powerful racial element beyond the regular crazy conspiracy claims.
It reached private militias who issued a 'call to arms' when the broadcast networks began covering the story. A cycle was created where everyone had their own interests covered, the base had it Fox version, the Russians to mess with our heads, the alt right conspiratorial beliefs and the networks for ratings all going in the same direction to undermine America.
Everyone

The Governor of Texas was impelled to call out the National Guard to assure people armed to the teeth to defend against a fake invasion.

Texas had a million guns locked and loaded on all sides.

Public confidence had broken down. Like the poem about 'for lack of a nail a war was lost - for a Russian rumor Texas lost its mind.

Trump regularly uses his HOAX CRUTCH like a horcrux.

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 18 - 10:12 AM

Iains,
I wonder if the mainstream or alternative media are spreading conspiracy theories about novichok?

Russia has, claiming that British agents were responsible for the Salisbury poisoning.

Jim,
Latest conspiracy in Murdoch's bumwipe 'Sunday Times
Russia got Corbyn elected leader

The story is that Russian bots supported Labour in the run up to the general election, and there appears to be some truth in it.
Independent,
"Researchers say they do not know who was behind Russia-linked Twitter “bots” that churned out messages supporting Jeremy Corbyn and attacking the Conservatives in the run-up to the general-election.
Matt Hancock, the digital and culture secretary, expressed concern over the suggestion that state actors were behind automated accounts that shared praise of Labour policies, details of rallies and urged Mr Corbyn’s supporters to turn out on polling day.
Responding to analysis by Swansea University and The Sunday Times, the Tory minister said it was “absolutely unacceptable for any nation to attempt to interfere in the democratic elections of another country” "
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-russian-twitter-bots-election-sunday-times-labour-conservatives-hancock-a8328031.html

Anyone else watching the current Homeland series? Spooky.

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 May 18 - 10:26 AM

ahem.. Russian bots... pro brexit... won by less than 2% margin..... hmmmmmm....??????

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 02 May 18 - 10:43 AM

Matt Hancock is a conspiracy theory all on his own. From Wikipedia:

"Hancock is the first MP to launch his own smartphone app in 2018. The head of privacy rights group Big Brother Watch called the app a 'fascinating comedy of errors', after the app was found to collect its users' photographs, friend details, check-ins, and contact information."

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 May 18 - 12:40 PM

I reckon this thread is deliberately designed to stop us believing in conspiracy theories ............... is this a conspiracy theory ?



I'll get me coat ..........

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 May 18 - 12:45 PM

But is it a coat...????

what if it's really.....aaagggghhhh..

[writer suddenly silenced by unknown chemical agent...]

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 May 18 - 01:10 PM

Who typed (writer suddenly silenced by unknown chemical agent ...)

Was it us, the Russians or perhaps the USA .......


aaaggghhhh .......... it.... was ... the ......

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: Donuel
Date: 02 May 18 - 01:16 PM

This is not a test - This is real - Nuclear Missiles are headed to Honolulu in 15 minutes.

People believed their phones but the 'new Honolulunukes' were a hollow fluke and were found to be fake.

I guess this is a case of 'real' fake news.

Categories of new truth:

fake fake news - satire
fake news - spun propaganda
real fake news - actual blunders
news - with a grain of salt
real news - highly suspicious
real real news - rare things that can't be faked but are challenged anyway.

Spin the wheel and find your truth.

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: Donuel
Date: 02 May 18 - 01:35 PM

Raggytash, I think it was a double agent counter intelligence mole in the Corbin campaign or just the opposite.

In Britain;
Between those who stoop to dupe and folks willing to believe sleaze, there is a never ending poop loop.

In America;
People say shit, people eat shit, then we tax shit

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: Donuel
Date: 02 May 18 - 02:07 PM

We used to say the bigger the lie, the more believable.
Twain said a lie is off like a shot halfway around the world before the truth puts it socks on.


is it true

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 May 18 - 11:15 PM

OK, so Merriam-Webster, which is descended from Noah Webster and is thus considered infallible within the boundaries of the United States, defines Conspiracy Theory as "A theory that explains an event or set of circumstances as the result of a secret plot by usually powerful conspirators."

In the U.S., sez Joe, the perpetrator is usually the Government or the United Nations. Americans would rather trust Putin or large corporations, than the Government or the United Nations.

Now, how is the definition of Conspiracy Theory different in the UK?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: Donuel
Date: 03 May 18 - 06:44 AM

The alt right uses a catch all phrase; The Deep State.
It refers to unelected career civil servants, as in "Joe was part of the Deep State".

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 May 18 - 08:58 AM

As we believe in free speech, perhaps someone would explain how foreigners churning out messages in support of Corbyn, if indeed that's what happened, is wrong. Before Trump was elected I churned out plenty of anti-Trump messages here, as did a number of others, and I'm a foreigner. If you wish to criticise someone for churning out messages, thereby crying foul, you'd better be able to point to what was underhand, dishonest or illegal about the churner-outerers. Easy enough to call them "bots" rather than get to the nitty-gritty, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 18 - 09:11 AM

Real people are fine.
When a foreign state agency sets up automated devices to make it look as if real people are doing it when they are not, they are creating a deception to interfere with normal democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 May 18 - 09:27 AM

Since when has 'normal democracy' not been tainted with some form of low or high tech
manipulation and rigging - and outright fraud...???

WE don't need foreigners to do it for us when it's something we are already pretty good at..

obviously, when I say 'we' I mean tories...

I read there is some discussion about reorgnising my region SW England's
councils and/or constituencies...

I can't somehow see that as being intended to help Labour's odds of ever winning here in any fair way...

Back to the thread topic....

I see tories dismissing any ideas they object to as 'conspiracy theory'
with the added implication that the proponent of those ideas is not quite right in the head
and should be regarded as a laughing stock, or even an extremist enemy of normal democracy...

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 18 - 01:09 PM

If Russia is attempting to subvert and/or destabilise our democracy and others, I think we should be concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 May 18 - 04:03 PM

A theory that explains an event or set of circumstances as the result of a secret plot by usually powerful conspirators."

That's a fair description - note that it leaves it wide open as to whether in fact it might actually be true in a particular case. While most theories about conspiracies are rubbish, and frequently pernicious rubbish, I think it’s fair enough to assume that an enormous amount of what happens in public life does involve our rulers concealing significant facts and misleading the public - in effect, involved in a conspiracy.

So many times a few years on, when the fuller version comes out, we learn about that kind of stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 May 18 - 11:27 PM

I have to say that at first, I thought the idea that the Russians were interfering with U.S. elections was preposterous, a bona fide conspiracy theory. I've since come to believe that the Russians did a lot to interfere with our elections, using Facebook and other media in an attempt to influence people to vote for Trump. And although I think that campaign was very effective, I think that the people who voted for Trump are so stupid that they would have voted for Trump anyhow.
So, was was it worth all that money Russia spent to affect the U.S. election? Nope, they wasted their money. Americans are perfectly capable of being stupid all on their own.
Although I still wonder how Trump got 3 million votes fewer than Clinton and still won the election. I have to conclude that the Republicans have some pretty clever gerrymanderers.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: meself
Date: 05 May 18 - 01:05 AM

"Although I still wonder how Trump got 3 million votes fewer than Clinton and still won the election."

Shades of Catch-22: "Yossarian still couldn't figure out how Milo Minerbinder could sell supplies to the enemy for less than he had paid for them and make a profit" (paraphrasing). Probably trump could figure it out ......

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: gillymor
Date: 05 May 18 - 07:20 AM

I don't know, Joe. Trump won with about 72,000 votes in 3 swing states,there were other factors involved like Comey's statement on the Hilary email investigation just before election day but I've no doubt the Russian interference was part of a perfect storm that gave us the orange buffoon. At any rate Mueller's investigation needs to go forward, if it damages Trump so be it, but we need to know the extent of the Russian tampering and it's mechanics so we can take additional measures to prevent it in the future. If people's votes don't count for something we won't have a country worthy of the name before long. Of course, many Republicans seem to be just fine with Russian interference as it helped deliver them the White House.

Subject: RE: BS: No more 'conspiracy theory' talk.
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 May 18 - 12:52 PM

I quite enjoy seeing 'conspiracy' theories debunked. I see these as conjecture whereas a theory is an argument backed by peer-reviewed evidence which, cannot at the present time be stated as an irrefutable proof (ie QED)- so for example, the current view that the escalation of detrimental climate change is due to man-made impacts is a theory as society is not yet ready to end all man-made contributions to measure the alternative. However, climate change denying is just conjecture. Same applies to the nature vs nurture theory as it is unethical to deny nurture to observe behaviour in a control population.