BS: The short way to kill threads...

Subject: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 May 18 - 05:17 PM

The insults are getting personal. Thread closed.
-Joe Offer-

And with that succinct explanation, another thread spiralling down into toxicity was closed down.

I tend to assume that when people do something which they know will produce an effect, that is the effect which they wish to produce.

So it is reasonable to assume that people who go in for trading assaults in threads, though they may appear to disagree on many things, are at one in wishing to cause the threads in question to be closed.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 May 18 - 06:07 PM

Well, usually by the time the "usual suspects" start insulting each other, the rest of us have already got bored and left the thread. And by the time a thread gets closed, all semblance of intelligence has been gone from the thread for days.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: robomatic
Date: 03 May 18 - 06:42 PM

I usually conclude the poster who goes into personal observations, insults, and obscenities has yielded the point.

There is another frequent habit that folks get into, that is being the last to post, sorta like " says you!" followed by "says you, too!".

It is childish but hard to resist.

Says me.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Jeri
Date: 03 May 18 - 06:53 PM

The problem here is that people troll, and some idiots can't self-censor and have to reply, and they KEEP DOING IT. So you can blame it on trolls and obnoxious people, but it's many of the same responders that keep them going. It's usually a small number of the regular trolls' bitches that enable all the shit.

Try pointing that out to THEM sometimes...

(And this thread undoubtedly has a short shelf life, as it's just another sort of bait.)

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 May 18 - 07:00 PM

I had absolutely no wish for that thread to be closed. I did, however, wish for one particular member to desist from the trolling, thread-wrecking, and racism for which he has a well-earned reputation on this forum.

I don't regard pointing out to a blatant racist that he is a racist as being an insult, especially when there is evidence of his racism aplenty in his posting history. It's simply a statement of fact.

If I had called him a racist unreasonably, I would understand the disapproval here, but I was merely saying what many others believe (and many have said it also, in the past).

And your barely-concealed attempt to take the side of someone who apparently is, or has been, your crony, and stoke the fires in your OP, is beneath contempt and unworthy of you, Kevin. It's school-yard stuff. I had thought better of you.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Jeri
Date: 03 May 18 - 07:03 PM

Backwoodsman tries to get THIS thread closed.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 May 18 - 07:09 PM

All too often the school playgrounds insults start flying back and forth while a real and potentially interesting discussion is still taking place. As the thread starts to turn toxic there is a drift away from the thread, until soon enough the name-callers have it almost entirely to themselves, and it gets closed.

I'm impressed much of the time how patient in Joe and Co are in holding off turning off the light, maybe hoping the thread can recover, as can happen,

But I do get tired when people who clearly do have a real interest in discussing an issue they care about seem to lose any sense of self control and screw up a discussion in that way.

I am beginning to wonder if it might be intentional.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 May 18 - 07:34 PM

It's quite possible to expresses the strongest disapproval of someone’s views without throwing insults. It's easy enough, for example, to explain why you believe that something they have said has racist implications, or give reasons why you question the sincerity of something they have said.

As for "And your barely-concealed attempt to take the side of someone who apparently is, or has been, your crony, and stoke the fires in your OP, is beneath contempt and unworthy of you, Kevin. It's school-yard stuff. I had thought better of you. - I have to say that you completely misunderstand my intentions in this thread Backwoodsman, I really am not making any attempt, semi-concealed or not "to take the side of someone who apparently is, or has been, your crony, and stoke the fires". My hope (and a faint one at that) would be to damp down fires.   And I am very sorry that what I have written clearly gave you the wrong impression.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 May 18 - 07:48 PM

What impresses me, at this particular moment,
is how fine and nuanced the moderator's distinctions are.

One BS thread still going has lost the Mudcat member who opened the thread.
And I would be wrong, wouldn't I, to say the thread has been hijacked.
The majority of posts on that thread are from a different member.
And because the posts stay more or less on topic,
the thread is not hijacked.

No, it's just being dominated by one person
and the others who post,
including the person who opened the thread,
have said what they have to say
and see no need to repeat themselves.

And it's my problem if I have a problem with whoever is left.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 May 18 - 07:51 PM

The phenomenon is very similar to infighting in a boxing match (boxing closer to an opponent than at arm's length). Neither opponent is at a good distance to get in a good, clean punch, and the match quickly gets boring. That's why the referees break up infighting and make the opponents start again at a distance.
Closing a thread is not the end of the world - it's just giving everybody a chance to make a new start on a rational basis.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Jeri
Date: 03 May 18 - 08:21 PM

...and another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 May 18 - 09:22 PM

I really hate to say this as I know it doesn't really help, but I know that two of our moderators, members of a team which I generally support, are very close to at least two of the worst trolls on the board. That's fine, except when those of us who are self-evidently far lesser trolls than the two people I'm referring to, are accused of being trolls by at least one of those self-same mods. I do have a habit of naming names rather than bottling things by using silly and pusillanimous expressions such as "usual suspects," etc., but on this occasion I'll refrain from doing that. I would call for a bit more honesty, consistency and even-handedness from some of the mods. It's a tough job, it's unpaid, you have your own stances on issues and you can't please everybody, and if, on occasion you're not seen to be intervening when it looks like you should be doing, well we all know how many bloody threads there are here...

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 May 18 - 09:55 PM

Actually I'm not sure it’s fair to talk about trolls in this context. Just because someone may seem a pain doesn’t merit the term. Unless my half-suspicion is right, and that there is a genuine attempt on their part to stir things up and start a slanging match in a way that gets a thread closed down, because that would indeed count as trolling.

But either way, even if someone is being deliberately and even insincerely provocative the principle "don't feed the trolls" applies, most especially when it comes to trading personal insults.

I think it is pretty well always a mistake to carry on an argument from one thread to another, or even to take into account in one thread what has been said in another. In starting this thread I had no intention of doing that or setting off that kind of thing. I wanted to raise an issue that I have noticed happening in many threads over the years.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 May 18 - 10:04 PM

I dislike several people here but, in fact, I think that only two of them are truly trolls. Being wrong-headed, argumentative and inclined to call names doesn't automatically make you a troll. These two pop up in Israel threads, always virulently pro-Israel and anti-Palestinian, and they are friendly with a mod each. It doesn't help.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 May 18 - 10:31 PM

Joe, infighting is what you get in real fighting. Unfortunately, that's not the stylized ritual of boxing and Greco-Roman wrestling. In real fighting, one or all combatants end up very injured or dead and it's over very quickly. There's no referee to enforce any rules because there aren't any. I know; I taught it.

Intelligent discussion, on the other hand, has rules. When those rules are repeatedly broken the discussion (such as it is) is and should be terminated.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 May 18 - 12:40 AM

Isn't, "So-and-so tries to get THIS thread closed" a perfect, example of the very thing this thread was opened in order to deplore - a snarky poke aimed at provoking an equally snarky response, and bring about a thread-closure?

Sorry, it ain't gonna happen.

To further clarify - an accusation was made which I felt was aimed at me (evidence - the OP's quote of Joe's comment on the most recent closed thread, on which mine was the final post), to which I responded firmly, but civilly, with my explanations. The OP then responded with his own explanation, which I accept, and with further points which give me food for thought, but to which responding would serve no purpose, IMHO, other than to fruitlessly continue an "Oh yes you did, oh no I didn't" kind of argument.

Nothing to do with 'trying to get THIS thread closed', everything to do with clarification, justification, and discussion.

End of, AFAIC.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 18 - 03:05 AM

Intelligent discussion, on the other hand, has rules.

Amen, Rap. Those rules are the rules of debate. You put up your case, the opposition puts up theirs. You refute their opposition, they answer to that. People ask questions. A vote is taken on who had the stronger argument. End of debate.

Sadly that does not happen here, as is witnessed by the threads with thousands of posts that seem to go on ad infinitum with people rehashing the same old arguments and not giving up until everyone else does! That is not how to win a debate or even how to conduct yourself in real life. Say what you want. Let other people have their say. Reply to them. Let them reply to you. Let it go.

I, and some others, have tried to help by not responding at all to certain parties. It works for me and seems to have cleaned up the threads a little.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: BobL
Date: 04 May 18 - 03:10 AM

AFAIC the problem starts when somebody (anybody) gets accused of being e.g. racist / homophobic / rabidly Tory / rabidly Socialist / a troll. Even if the accusation is true, it's irrelevant.
The point is, what does it have to do with the subject under discussion?

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 May 18 - 03:35 AM

The problem seems to me to be that some people are completely over-invested in the discussion. They post aggressively as if their very lives depended on it. The vicious passion is quite astonishing at times.It's a forum not a war.

Also, the lack of common manners and consideration is breathtaking. I can't imagine people behaving like that in a real-life setting. It would probably come to blows, brawling and the arrival of the Police!

I think the moderators are right to close threads in which certain posters are becoming nasty, although it's a disappointment for those who started the discussion, often an interesting topic which could have developed into a very satisfying debate.

Imagine someone visiting Mudcat for the first time. They might be considering joining and being a regular contributor. But having read some of the appalling, angry and insulting threads, they'd recoil in disgust and go elsewhere. I'm sure no-one here would be happy about that; 'new faces' are very important.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 18 - 03:57 AM

I have no issue at all with bad language and robust exchanges. You see that all the time in real life and it very rarely ends in violence. Go in any pub in Scotland where there is an 'old firm' game on the TV. Go to any pub vault where politics is being discussed. The language and manners are not for the faint hearted!

It is the need to win at all costs that gets me. The cheating, the mis-interpretation of other peoples words, the verbal gymnastics and resorting to semantics when the intention is perfectly clear and the outright lies.

Give me good honest abuse over dishonest machinations any day.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 May 18 - 04:12 AM

But this isn't 'any pub in Scotland' Dave. It's a forum where people from all over the world, with a variety of cultural norms, religions and political viewpoints are having discussions.

I agree that the underhand comments are very annoying, as is deliberate misinterpretation.
And surely, one can be cultured enough not to resort to bad language?
I know this isn't a monastery, but I don't move in any circles where bad language is acceptable.
(Perhaps I ought to 'get a life' as they say nowadays!)

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 May 18 - 04:12 AM

Hopefully most passing visitors will be here for music questions, and will not be drawn to the greater level of invective used in the 'BS' section.
While I like to have access to a discussion area which can include UK politics, I sometimes feel that the site would be better without the BS.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 18 - 04:32 AM

As a forum it should be a microcosm of real life.

In my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 May 18 - 04:38 AM

That's a good working definition Dave. But I feel that when one department of 'real life' dominates and excludes all the other sections, it becomes rather bullying and exclusive.

Can I just say that I always appreciate your measured and mature posts, and that you come across as a very fair-minded, kindly and pleasant person?
There are many on here that I'd really miss if the BS section were to be dismantled!

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Iains
Date: 04 May 18 - 04:44 AM

Considering the variety of nationalities and religious persuasions posting, it is a miracle the forum is generally a peaceful place.
There is a minority that post that simply cannot accept that others may legitimately hold contrary views to their own, and insist on hammering away repeatedly.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 18 - 05:01 AM

Thank you, Eliza, I appreciate that. But I think we ever met in real life you would find I am far from measured and mature :-) (Well apart from in age that is!)

Iains, we can agree on that. I can accept the opinions of others, even if I have difficulty understanding them at times. I expect others to do the same and do not expect to have to justify my opinions to the nth degree.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 May 18 - 05:38 AM

well speaking as someone who has occasionally bailed out of mudcat when faced with ignorant and hurtful comments - I'm not really sure there is an answer to this vexed problem.

mudcat is to me simply the best folk music site. On a day when we are all reeling from the impact of the news of Jed Marum's death. You have to take the rough with the smooth.

I would never have known of Jed's work without mudcat. And his music enriched my life.

Its a pity we have this unfortunate aspect to mudcat. I have a feeling it says more about the kind of people and their intransigent attitudes,
who have emptied the folk clubs and turned folk music into a minority music than is comfortable for us to contemplate.

Because what it has meant, is that those of us who started out as youngsters, when folk music clubs were to be found in every town in England - have in many ways devoted our lives to a dying artform.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 18 - 05:47 AM

"There is a minority that post that simply cannot accept that others may legitimately hold contrary views to their own, and insist on hammering away repeatedly."
I agree entirely Iains - they usually make themselves known with strings of postings of personal abuse and attempts to 'talk down' their opponents - irritating to receive but highly entertaining to compile into huge lists
There have, to my knowledge, only ever been two posters who have consistently done this - one had ridden off into the sunset, the other is now taking an "outraged from Tun bridge Wells" attitude to such behaviour which may be an indication he intends to change his ways a good thing, I suppose, though I shall miss the opportunity of compiling those lists!!!
Many of us need to get our act together if this section is going to survive, but that depends entirely on "ssein' oursel's as ithers see us"
More later
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 18 - 06:41 AM

It was me backwoodsman personally insulted with his nasty name calling.
The thread was closed with all his lies about me left intact for posterity but denying me the right of reply.

If it was so bad as to close the thread, why not delete it?
Why has he been allowed to repeat the personal lying insults on this thread?

Joe, it was not "the "usual suspects" insulting each other.
I do not insult anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 18 - 06:45 AM

Insulting someone's intelligence is, in my opinion, worse than insulting them personally.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 May 18 - 06:55 AM

In no way was my opening post aimed at anybody, nor was it particularly about any thread. I quoted Joe because I thought his comment succinctly identified a problem that bedevils a lot of threads. Any time a thread is closed some post is inevitably the last one, but I'd see it as a mistake to think that is the reason for it being closed.

Actually, in comparison with most forums where these kind of topics get discussed, the Cat is a relatively civilised place, thanks largely I am sure to Joe and Co.

My impression is that there are two traps that Internet forums tend to fall into - one is where the differences constantly turn toxic, and the clashes just become needlessly unpleasant, and pointless. The other is where everybody agrees with each other, and they just confirm each other’s views. Neither makes for interesting or productive discussion.

Most of the time the Cat manages to steer clear of either extreme, and different views can get expressed and explored.   But sometimes it goes wrong, and that could happen less often.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Iains
Date: 04 May 18 - 06:56 AM

There are none so blind as those that will not see.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 18 - 07:26 AM

The pointing of fingers was bound to happen which underlines my point
Several of US are guilty of name calling - some more than others
Unless all of us guilty ones recognise that fact it will continue - "not me guv" will do the same
I have never been a member of a debating forum before this - you're the first - I've never written much on anything other than song before this - and I've enjoyed every minute of it
I never cease to be impressed and sometimes moved by the level of knowledge of people and their generosity in being prepared to share both ideas and actual material
This forum is a great opportunity to exchange ideas and information on a myriad of subjects
Personally, I am grateful for the two sections of this forum - neither on their own interest me enough to hang around but both are a perfect opportunity to give out and learn about subjects that interest me - some deeply
I disagree with those who say this is not like a pub - a perfect analogy as far as I am concerned - and antidote to debating societies
There's no such thing as "bad language" in my opinion - only language used badly
Some of us are more passionate about some things - it shows in our contributions - it doesn't mean we resent those who don't agree with us - I wouldn't be here if I did.
I do object strongly when this forum us used as a platform for spreading hate and dissent - which has happened on several occasions (even to the extent of contravening national laws)
Can't do too much about that apart from attempting to prevent it in the strongest terms
Anger and overstatement is inevitable with some people in some matters - gratuitous insulting is not unless that's the way you're built
Instead of finger-pointing let's try a little self-examination - if you cant do that, go find a guru (I don't think the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi is still available, but he was far too expensive anyway)
Socks up time, I think
Incidentally - the BS section isn't the only place slanging matches happen - the other bit can be as much of a minefield on certain subjects
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 18 - 07:27 AM

"
Insulting someone's intelligence is, in my opinion, worse than insulting them personally. "
Amen to that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 May 18 - 08:45 AM

Insulting someone's intelligence is, in my opinion, worse than insulting them personally. "

Surely the aim should be not to insult either, but to be nice.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 18 - 08:54 AM

It should indeed, Al, but we live in an imperfect world and the Mudcat is a microcosm of that. Besides, it is very difficult to be nice to some people and there are some who, when you are nice, throw it back in your face.

Ho hum.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 May 18 - 09:20 AM

"Don't insult other people. You don't like it and neither do they. It starts fights." -- my Mother.

If your opinion is so sacred to you that you cannot civilly defend it, if you must resort to insults, perhaps your opinion isn't as well thought out as you you thought or you simply can't articulate your views well. In either case you should give your thoughts more thought.

(Sometimes I long for the days when an insult would bring an apology or a meeting with swords and/or pistols.)

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 May 18 - 09:25 AM

Since the mudcat forum coding refurb,
I miss being able to use emoticons to indicate visually when a post is intended in cheeky tongue in cheek ironic humour.
This is essential for informing certain humourless nitpicking forum pedants
who need such things spelled out for them...

Those same difficult individuals also do not understand self depreciating humour,
but instead misread it as 'weakness' they can later exploit maliciously in 'battle'...

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: CupOfTea
Date: 04 May 18 - 09:35 AM

wow.

I could have SWORN that the quick way to kill threads was for me to post something. It's not that I want the last word, no no NOOOO, but I seem to get it all too often. I feel like I inject something that induces stultifying boredom, and the thread just stops.

depressing, that.

Joanne in Cleveland

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 18 - 09:50 AM

Just for you, Joanne, here is the last word...


Zyzzyva

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Jeri
Date: 04 May 18 - 10:13 AM

When people start complaining, it usually ends up being complaining about PEOPLE, at which time it becomes personal, and goes straight to hell.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 May 18 - 01:49 PM

I keep seeing this, people calling each other "trolls," and I can't figure out what it is they think makes a troll. For the most part, I think that very few of our regular participants are trolls, because I see trolls as people who intentionally disrupt discussions for the purpose of causing trouble. To many Mudcatters, it seems that the definition of "troll" is ideological - that anyone who disagrees with the dominant ideology is a troll. In other words, our conservatives are the trolls.
But I think our conservatives, misguided though they may be, post what they post because it's what they believe. And at times they may post with inordinate vehemence because they feel they are a hopeless and powerless minority. But they're really not particularly troublesome - they just post troublesome ideas.

I found it interesting to see people in posts above, trying to speculate who were the people who were responsible for killing threads. I think that usually it's not the person who posted the last message. Maybe it's about the fourth person up from the bottom, or maybe not. But probably it's not one person - it's that the entire tone of the thread has turned angry, and there's nothing that can be done to fix it.

But anyhow, I don't really think we've had serious trolls since we began requiring membership to post in the BS forum. Greg_F was a pain in the ass; but he was just trying very, very hard to be accepted by the "in crowd," even when he had no understanding of whatever was being discussed. We have people who can get ornery, but I think they truly believe in the ideas that they are posting, and they're working hard to help their side prevail.

As for moderators having particular friendships with trolls, I just don't see that - but then, I don't see all these trolls that people are talking about. I confess that I have kind of love-hate relationships with Jim Carroll and Steve Shaw. I really like both of them, but I do argue with them regularly and vehemently. So, I don't think I'm particularly biased for or against them.

I may have my disagreements with [other moderators], but I think they're pretty unbiased.

So, that's what I think.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: keberoxu
Date: 04 May 18 - 02:27 PM

Just noted a post lamenting about:
one member is unhappy that another member's posts have not been deleted.

you know what I do?
I think about all of MY posts, and there are a bunch,
that have not been deleted,
which I ought never to have posted to begin with.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 May 18 - 02:52 PM

I am very reluctant to delete posts. To me, once a message has been posted, the damage has already been done. It usually doesn't help to delete a post. I get a lot of requests for posts to be deleted, and it usually feels to me like the requestor is asking me to punish the offending poster. [Other mederators] delete posts more frequently, but I do not believe that they believe in deletions for the purpose of punishing offenders. Our purpose is to keep the discussions going and to protect the interests of Mudcat, not to punish any wrongdoers. I think that we moderators have far less interest in the discussions then some people may think. We just want to keep the peace, and we try various techniques to do that. Sometimes, we may actually be successful.

Joe

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: robomatic
Date: 04 May 18 - 03:51 PM

I have learned over time that there are people who I really disagree with here, and have posted stuff that I deem deeply prejudicial, yet, given more proximity and a human face in front of me, I might very well share a beer with, after a minor beat-down.

What it comes down to for me in the end is does the person have a point to their argument that references items outside themselves? Can they establish a relationship to reality (or something they represent as reality)?

Also, if the abuse is at least tempered by humour or specific enough to give a frame of mind beyond mere name-calling.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 May 18 - 04:48 PM

Having thought about this for a while I have arrived at this position.

The Mudcat is a discussion forum, where hopefully, ideas can be exchanged, debated, however heatedly.

It should be a place where other peoples ideas are considered, thoughtfully, and responded to accordinly.

Although I am quite open to robust replies, we should hopefully, also retain a little decorum.

What it should not be is a place where people have to "win" or "lose"

Sadly that is what we encounter more often than not.

Just my tuppence worth.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 May 18 - 07:59 PM

Yeah, I have to say that I sometimes wonder why it is that people take discussions here so seriously. I mean, this is a discussion forum, not real life. Very few decisions are made here that will affect the fate of this world. We're just talking. And if somebody gets offensive, it's still all just talk. There really is no need for anybody to be reprimanded. If somebody offends you, get back at him with clever and humorous but withering logic. If the discussion gets out of hand, a moderator will shut it down and somebody can start a new thread. It's no big deal.

I have the annoying habit of liking most of the people on this forum, even then they're a pain in the ass. We're all actually pretty good people. We care, and that's important.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 May 18 - 08:03 PM

The thing is, largely because the Mudcat is founded on a love for folk music, it does include people with a wider range of views than is the case with many online forums. We should value this. Arguing about things we care about with people who disagree with us helps us get a clearer picture of what we believe and why we believe it, and also why other people see it differently.

It can get uncomfortable and frustrating, and very often it gets downright annoying, but it's worth trying to make it work.

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 18 - 08:34 PM

" I mean, this is a discussion forum, not real life."
Sorry Joe but shame on you
In "real life" very few of us get a chance to express our opinions and if we do, nobody listens
Coming from the background I do, many of the subjects I get involved in are very much "real life" for me - I know that is the case with others here
What Mac has just written is exactly right (I wish I could agree with him on everything as I do on this)
It is an extremely middle-class attitude to suggest that sharing opinions with those who agree and disagree is unimportant - for some of us it is as essential as reading - a way of expanding your knowledge -and your ability to do so, of course
I havn't had the opportunity to organise my ideas and add to them the way I have been able to here since I left school sixty years ago
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The short way to kill threads...
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 May 18 - 09:33 PM

I dunno, Jim. I think you need to reconsider. What is the purpose of this forum, and what effect do our posts have here?

I'm an activist in my local community, centering on the issues of incarceration, homelessness, and immigration. I'm past president and on the board of directors of a non-profit community organizing group that focuses on these issues. I attend every local public meeting that deals with these issues, and I write frequent letters to local newspapers and harass my elected representatives on a regular basis.

I use Mudcat for practice. In general, I feel I'm among friends here and in a place where I can say what I want to say, testing my arguments to see how they will work in a more public forum. Here is where I experiment with my thinking on matters, to see if my approach is workable.

This coming Tuesday, the right-wingers in my county are organizing an attempt to get the county Board of Supervisors to enact a resolution removing the county from California's "sanctuary state" law which prohibits state and local law enforcement from participating in Trump's crackdown on legal and illegal immigrants. Some California counties and municipalities have chosen to defy the state law and work to cooperate with Trump's immigration troopers.

Our county has a right-wing electorate, but the county Board of Supervisors chose not to include the anti-sanctuary proposal on this coming Tuesday's agenda. To my mind, this is a very courageous action on the part of the Board of Supervisors, but many of my colleagues don't think this is enough and want to use the Board meeting as a battleground for the immigration issue. I don't want to jeopardize what the Board has done by removing the issue from their agenda, so I find myself in opposition to many of my friends.

To me, the county board meeting is where the discussion has importance - not at Mudcat. I want a place like this to test my opinions, even if I'm wrong. And once I've tried my presentations here, I can show up at the county meeting on Tuesday and make my point in a place where it counts.

But for Mudcat to be worthwhile, it's important for us to see Mudcat for what it should be - a forum for free discussion among friends, even if sometimes people say things we don't agree with. If we are to be effective in our communities and our political bodies, we need a place like Mudcat where we can just bat ideas around, even if we're wrong sometimes.

-Joe-