BS: Irish referendum

Subject: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 18 - 03:11 PM

Can we continue this without the slanging match please
My apologies
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 May 18 - 05:24 PM

My understanding from reading the closed thread, Jim, was that both you and the o/p were pleased with the result of the referendum. Also, that that you both thought that the church's influence was weakening and that was a good thing.

I'm easily confused but, if my interpretation is correct, why were you taking pot shots at each other?

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 18 - 06:24 PM

Theresa May is in big trouble over this. She has failed to broker a reconciliation that would revive a Stormont assembly. She is now saying that we urgently need to get it restored whilst at the same time "asserting" that local politics should decide the abortion issue in the six counties. Yet, de facto, her government is running Northern Ireland. But she daren't make the right decision about abortion there because she's running scared of the anti-abortionist DUP. Well who'd have thought that democracy in this country could take such a nose-dive. This could actually finish her. I hope that Sinn Fein and the other parties with humanitarian instincts will keep up the pressure. Why, even a bunch of Tories are putting the pressure on...

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum"
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 18 - 06:42 PM

I think she'll rely on a do nothing policy and ride it out at this time. But I think that the Northern Ireland border issue is going to be the one that wrecks her.

It's been suggested that setting in motion a Northern Ireland referendum on abortion could be a more likely option than imposing a law, but I doubt if that would be any more acceptable to the DUP, and she can't afford to lose their support. In a sense the Tories are the junior party in the Westminster coalition, with the DUP holding the whip hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 18 - 07:01 PM

An abortion referendum in the Six Counties would scupper the anti-abortionists and the DUP know that. They would regard the calling of a referendum by May as a sellout. Therefore, May will not sanction one. We live in very interesting times...

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 18 - 07:34 PM

"why were you taking pot shots at each other?"
No idea Doug - probably a long standing issue
For my part, I apologise that it did - I'm somewhat relieved that the subject survived
"I think she'll rely on a do nothing policy and ride it out at this time."
She's already stated that this is exactly what she will do - she says it is an "Irish" problem
As Stormont is non operational it means the DUP will have its way - the future of Arlene Foster still hangs in the balance due to a mis-spending issue, and the whole thing is complicated by the Brexit/border issue
It is quite possible that this will only be resolved by a United Ireland, which is not a million miles away as things stand
Very much a case of 'Watch this Space'
Again - my apologies fro my part in the last thread closure
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 18 - 07:54 PM

Not sure she's going to get away with batting it back to a non-existent Stormont assembly. With no prospect of that being reinstated, she's in charge. She's being cowardly, running in fear of the DUP. Democracy comes a very poor second.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 18 - 08:30 PM

Incidentally
Are people aware that new practices decided on by the government now the amendment is to been scrapped are to be named SAVITA'S LAW ?
Very fitting
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 May 18 - 09:07 PM

My friends and relatives in Ireland are on the whole pleased with the outcome. They also expect a lot of cross-border traffic both as a result of the Referendum and Brexit. Those born in Ulster are also citizens of the Republic of Ireland:

It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland.

Of course, citizens of the Republic aren't also citizens of the UK (what a mess THAT would cause!).

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 18 - 05:04 AM

She has failed to broker a reconciliation that would revive a Stormont assembly

So has everyone else. She is not to blame for their intransigence.

She is now saying that we urgently need to get it restored whilst at the same time "asserting" that local politics should decide the abortion issue in the six counties. Yet, de facto, her government is running Northern Ireland.

That would be Britain imposing its will on the Irish again. We can not sort this out for them.

The NI assembly voted against abortion reform in 2016 by 59 votes to 40.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 18 - 05:26 AM

"59 votes to 40."
Time to give the people a go rather than leave it to a bunch od sectarian religious bigots with terrorist connections
That's what the Republic has just done
Religion should have no say in these matters
There is talk of tackling the education system in the republic now - not before time
The Irish Times devotes six full pages to the 'Savita' referendum - I don't think I've ever witnessed such elation since England won the World Cup in the sixties
Donegal was the only one of the 26 counties to get a (narrow) 'NO vote
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 18 - 06:51 AM

I agree with all that Jim, but abortion is a devolved issue and Westminster should not interfere.
I think that they are wrong, and a bit mad, on abortion and gay marriage but it is up to them not us.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 18 - 07:10 AM

So the DUP can permanently block abortion reform as long as they refuse to form an administration? That's just wacky. The UK is still ensuring that Northern Ireland can run. Included in running a country is having the ability to change laws that need changing. You can't devolve issues to a non-existent government. If May had any backbone she would enable a vote in Westminster. But we know that (a) she has no backbone and (b) she's running scared of the DUP. Oh, democracy, where art thou!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 May 18 - 07:21 AM

let's face it.

we're like a spare prick at a wedding. Ireland doesn't need us.

Even if Ireland doesn't want to unite. They're united about the fact they want to stay in in the EU.

We just add a layer of miasma and confusion. Not May's fault , or Jeremy. Its a bloody mad situation.

FFS - lets's bugger off home out of this party. No one wants us here.

The band's shit anyway - who wants to listen to jigs and sodding reels all night?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 18 - 07:30 AM

So the DUP can permanently block abortion reform as long as they refuse to form an administration?

Blocking it how Steve?
And why do you suggest it is DUP refusing to form an administration? It was Sinn Fein that walked out.

You can't devolve issues to a non-existent government.

There was one in 2016 when they refused the most minor abortion reform.

If May had any backbone she would enable a vote in Westminster

We have no right to impose our will on them on this.

FFS - lets's bugger off home out of this party. No one wants us here.

If only that was true, but they keep voting to stay in UK.
Hopefully Brexit will finally convince them to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 18 - 08:13 AM

Last time I heard, Northern Ireland was part of the United Kingdom. I don't moan (much) when Westminster imposes its will on Cornwall. De facto, NI is being run by the Westminster government. "Imposing our will" on them don't come into it. Brexiteers are imposing their will on me, all 38%. That's how running countries works and I have to put up with it. We have a situation here in which the DUP can prevent abortion law reform by not forming an administration. That is simply wrong. Life has to go on. Perhaps if we "impose our will" a little by introducing perfectly justified human rights reforms, minds will be concentrated and the administration will be restored. Until that happens we have "every right." You can't devolve things to a government that doesn't exist. Fannying around muttering "it's a devolved issue" simply perpetuates human rights abuses and you shouldn't be defending that.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 18 - 08:28 AM

"So the DUP can permanently block abortion reform as long as they refuse to form an administration?"
They are already doing so
Their politicians are now appearing on television saying there will be no change in the abortion laws
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 18 - 08:32 AM

Without the support of the DUP the Tories don't have a majority in Westminster. That isn't affected by whether Theresa May, Boris Johnson, or Jeremy Rees-Mogg is Head of the Tory Party.

If Tory rebels got together and forced her hand, or forced her out, there'd be no way to avoid a General Election.

The legal situation in Norther Ireland over abortion is significantly different from in the Republic. Before the referendum no Irish government could legalise abortion even if it wanted to, because of the Constitution. Now we can expect it to legislate to change the law. However a Northern Ireland government can already do what it wants to change the law, without any need for a referendum - but of course, there is no Northern Irish government to decide one way or another.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 28 May 18 - 10:08 AM

Every Spern is Sacred

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Thompson
Date: 28 May 18 - 01:26 PM

The DUP asked for a No vote in the Republic, a country they don't acknowledge. They're more right-wing than the most right-wing of arch-Catholics, and that's saying a lot. Their main cultural outlet is building gigantic bonfires made of tyres and pallets on which to burn Irish flags and effigies of Irish people, and having parties around them singing a mix of deliberately offensive songs and hymns, and playing fifes and drums and the gigantic Lambeg drums while the flames of their witch-bonfires rise into the night. They're wonderfully wacky, and the most Irish thing on the island.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 May 18 - 06:16 PM

You say Keith that May has no power to impose her will.

legally I would doubt that. She's the boss of the Uk. she could enact the necessary acts to do what she bloody likes.

whether she should is another matter.

Nevertheless I would imagine that is the case and if NI don't like it. They know where the out door is.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 18 - 08:58 PM

This has nothing to do with May needing "to impose her will." Last time I heard she was the prime minister of a territory that fully includes Northern Ireland. For the last sixteen months there has been no devolved administration in the Six Counties. Yet that part of our nation still has to be administered. Westminster parliament has every right to legislate to change the law in NI. I'd go a lot further than that and say that May has a DUTY to the women of NI to give them the same human rights as women elsewhere in the EU. She can't escape this. Ireland has utterly turned the tide, and she has to act despite the DUP, and if that leads to an election, then that's how it should be. Whatever happens, the DUP shitbags are doomed.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 May 18 - 12:46 AM

DUP shitbags...?

name calling won't help. lot of people vote for this party.

nonetheless if they want to be part of the UK, they should abide by the laws that the rest of us observe.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 29 May 18 - 02:26 AM

"Whatever happens, the DUP shitbags are doomed."
Intemperate language kills threads, jimmie holds the only exemption.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 18 - 03:08 AM

Plenty of things kill threads. Insults. Abuse. Idiots. 'Intemperate language' is not one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 29 May 18 - 03:54 AM

So Dave you do not think that abuse and insults show a lack of control?
You perhaps think such tactics are premeditated? If such terms as racist and nazi are hurled about with gay abandon do you think such terms are carefully thought out before posting, or simply a thoughtless lashing out to provoke a response?

OED Intemperate Having or showing a lack of self-control; immoderate.
SYNONYMS

immoderate, excessive, undue, inordinate, unreasonable, unjustified, unwarranted, uncalled for

extreme, unrestrained, unrestricted, uncontrolled, unbridled, uncurbed

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 18 - 04:04 AM

So Dave you do not think that abuse and insults show a lack of control?

What makes you say that? My post was only short so you may have missed it.

Plenty of things kill threads. Insults. Abuse. Idiots. 'Intemperate language' is not one of them.

I have emboldened the bit where where I said Insults, abuse and idiots kill threads. The very things that you mention. Whether it show lack of self control or not is completely irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 29 May 18 - 04:11 AM

Just the kind of facile   response to be expected.
The case rests M'Lud!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 18 - 04:15 AM

Can we stop this before it closes another thread
If anybody objects to the way people express themselves (hardly credible considering...) take it up with those upstairs
Do not close this thread
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 18 - 04:45 AM

Steve,
Last time I heard, Northern Ireland was part of the United Kingdom. I don't moan (much) when Westminster imposes its will on Cornwall.

Cornwall has yet to achieve devoved status. Like Scotland and Wales, NI is a devolved principality and Westminster has no power to interfere on devolved issues like abortion. They take the bare minimum of decisions to keep NI running until the assembly reforms.

We have a situation here in which the DUP can prevent abortion law reform by not forming an administration

The "administration" easily voted down the most limited reform in 2016, so it probably would again.
Also, it was Sinn Fein that walked out over a different issue, and neither side are "forming an administration" because it requires both.

legally I would doubt that. She's the boss of the Uk. she could enact the necessary acts to do what she bloody likes.

Not without reneging on devolution. That would not be considered acceptable by anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 29 May 18 - 04:53 AM

Irish Times may 26th:
In the next few months the Supreme Court in London is expected to make a ruling on a case considering whether Northern Ireland abortion law breaches women’s rights.

In addition, the case of a mother being prosecuted for buying abortion pills for her daughter will be heard in September.

Last year British Labour Party MP Stella Creasy proposed an amendment to the Queen’s Speech calling for Northern Ireland women to have access to free abortions in England, where the 1967 Abortion Act allows for abortion up to 24 weeks.

The new provision was subsequently introduced by the British government but does not go far enough, campaigners have said.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 29 May 18 - 04:58 AM

Nonsense from the DUP

"“Verified research has shown that the impediment of the Irish Sea has encouraged pregnant women to think again and as a result 100,000 lives have been saved in Northern Ireland.

“The referendum decision will mean that Northern Ireland and Malta will remain the only parts of Europe where the unborn child will have a high level of protection.

“The ray of hope is that our neighbours in Co Donegal voted to protect the unborn child,” he continued.

Mr Wells said the pro life movement must now redouble its efforts to prevent any change in law in Northern Ireland. “I remain totally pledged to all that I can to help them achieve this”.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 18 - 05:01 AM

There is no administration to devolve anything to. As things stand, devolution doesn't apply. We may not call it direct rule (yet) but there is currently direct administration from Westminster. There is the constitutional right to amend laws in NI and there is now the moral imperative, following the Irish vote, to get the NI abortion regime in line with other EU countries. Getting all hands-tied-technical-can't-do-anything about human rights abuses is disgraceful. Yes we can do something and we should do it now by allowing the Commons to vote on it. The DUP have the same right to vote in the Commons as everybody else. They have no right to obstruct the changes that are urgently needed to allow women in NI their human rights.

Yes, DUP shitbags. The DUP holds this government to ransom, opposes abortion completely and opposes gay marriage. They have been involved in the sectarian repression of the large Catholic minority in Northern Ireland. My term is mild. And it's amusing to see the sanctimonious pouncing on that remark by people who themselves have a sorry record of abusing members of this forum. At least I didn't do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 18 - 05:02 AM

Marie Stopes clinics in mainland Britain offer free abortions to women from anywhere.
NI people could not be denied NHS treatment either.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 18 - 05:10 AM

The DUP holds this government to ransom, opposes abortion completely and opposes gay marriage.

Yes they do, and they have a lot of support in NI for their mad views. A referendum could well go their way, and who are we to impose our values on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 18 - 05:36 AM

I don't give a monkeys about what a referendum might produce, though I'd say it's a rock-solid certainty that it would go the same way as the Irish vote. Calling a referendum would simply be a delaying tactic that would ensure that NI women would continue to suffer for many more months, or longer, to come. We have parliamentary democracy in this country and government by referendum comes in a bloody poor second. If May doesn't give Parliament a vote on this she deserves to be brought down. Well, she deserves that anyway. And no abortion provided by another country is ever free. Last I heard, Ryanair and co. were not providing free flights and accommodation for young women to travel, many of whom are already on their uppers. Fine if you're wealthy, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 18 - 05:41 AM

Irish Government to act on referendum decision withing six weeks
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 18 - 05:54 AM

Steve, like the vast majority on the mainland, I agree with you on abortion and gay marriage.
Inside Ireland, especially in the North, they think differently.

I don't give a monkeys about what a referendum might produce

So you have no respect for the will of the people, and seek to impose your values on them against their will if necessary.

That makes you undemocratic at best, and fascist at worst.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 May 18 - 06:11 AM

Its quite simple keith. They are unionists. union with England. They claim to be part of the united Kingdom. They have to obey the law.

how can that be wrong?

Anyway , doesn't that EU they all want to be part of, say they have to grant citizens rights to their subjects?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 29 May 18 - 06:16 AM

" If May doesn't give Parliament a vote on this she deserves to be brought down."
Northern Ireland, like Wales and Scotland has a devolved Parliament. To impose any solution from Westminster would inflame feelings and likely lead to sectarian violence. Do you really want to wish that on a country simply because of your views?
The DUP it is the party with the most seats in the Northern Ireland Assembly and the fifth-largest party in the House of Commons.
It is right-wing and socially conservative, being anti-abortion and opposing same-sex marriage. The DUP sees itself as defending Britishness and Ulster Protestant culture against Irish nationalism. The party is Eurosceptic and during the UK European Union (EU) referendum it supported the UK's withdrawal from the E

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 18 - 06:20 AM

The people of Northern Ireland do not think differently - they have never been invited to vote on the issue - this is pro Loyalist crap
It is the bigoted redneck government who "think differently"
It is well within Britain's remit to intervene on this issue, especially as, at present The Northern counties have no government
Britain has interfered in Northern Ireland politics whenever it has suited them to do so - now they are refusing to intervene because it suits them not to
Thanks to a crass Prime Minister taking a crass decision to hold a crass general election, Britain is now in hock to a bunch of dinosaur bigots who have so far cost a billon of the taxpayers money and are now robbing the British people of their dignity
In less than a week there are large protests in the North demanding the same rights as Irish Republic women have
Looks like the 'End of Days' for the last outpost of the British Empire - and possibly for the now Disunited Kingdom   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 29 May 18 - 06:44 AM

Despite your unwarranted criticism you cannot dispute that they are the majority party. Everyone that voted them in totally disagrees with you.
With your anglophobia you conveniently overlook the impact of the UK arbitrarily imposing a change in the law in Northern Ireland, in direct conflict with the majority party.
Far better to wait for the outcome of the human rights trial alluded to above. If there is a clear breach of human rights modifying the law cannot realistically be disputed.
A far more sensible approach!

From yesterdays Guardian:
A supreme court judgment on whether abortion law in Northern Ireland is incompatible with international human rights is expected this year.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 29 May 18 - 07:00 AM

Not without reneging on devolution. That would not be considered acceptable by anyone.

It would be considered acceptable by me.

Devolution is the worst of both worlds. If the UK is one country then there should be one set of laws for all from the Isles of Scilly up to the Shetlands, from East Anglia to County Fermanagh. If any the constituent parts want to go their own way by democratic means, with their own laws, either as independent countries or by choosing whichever alliances they wish, that would be OK by me.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 18 - 07:10 AM

The Supreme Court is going to rule only on the matters of fatal foetal abnormality, rape and incest, not on the broader issue of the right to abortion. "Waiting for their decision" is a red herring.

Northern Ireland does not "have a devolved parliament" and has not had one for sixteen months. The abortion issue is highly likely to disincentivise the DUP to getting back round the table, what's more. So more delays for the abused women of Northern Ireland. The moral imperative is for the government to act by giving the Commons a vote on the issue. If you deny that, it's tantamount to your saying that the human rights of thousands of women must play second fiddle to Tory party interests.

Interesting that I get shouted at for calling the DUP shitbags, when, as far as I know, none of their MPs post here. Yet, because I oppose referendums in parliamentary democracies, I get called undemocratic and possibly a fascist. You really couldn't make this stuff up. It confirms the strong feeling that we should not engage with Keith in the slightest in future.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 29 May 18 - 07:11 AM

Doug Chadwick
I presume from your post that you are a staunch supporter of brexit.
After all devolution flies in the face of the centrist platform of the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 18 - 07:38 AM

"Despite your unwarranted criticism you cannot dispute that they are the majority party. "
They have no overall majority now and can be outvoted if the opposition parties combine, which they are threatening to do if Stormont ever crawls into existence again
In the next few years it is quite likely that the Protestant/Catholic gap will have all but disappeared
Britain is laying taxpayers money on a dying donkey
This issue should never have been taken to Europe in the first place - that's a last resort
Their Courts can be as ponderous as any, and should they rule against interfering. the Six Counties will remain dinosaurs refusing the right of the people to vote on this issue.
Not only a waste of time and money (not to mention women's health and lives), but in the long run, totally unnecessary as, thanks to Brexit, and now this, a United Ireland is not too far away - every cloud... and all that
Let's hope all this pissing bout in Britain's Jurassic Park doesn't bring about an outbreak of sectarian violence
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 29 May 18 - 07:41 AM

I presume from your post that you are a staunch supporter of brexit.
After all devolution flies in the face of the centrist platform of the EU.

You seem to have got that the wrong way round. Surely, if devolution flies in the face of the centrist platform of the EU, then I would be a supporter of devolution if were a supporter of brexit? I am not a supporter of either.


DC

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 18 - 09:34 AM

Al,
They claim to be part of the united Kingdom. They have to obey the law.

how can that be wrong?

Anyway , doesn't that EU they all want to be part of, say they have to grant citizens rights to their subjects?

EU leaves some things to nations to decide for themselves. Malta is also out of step, and so is Ireland for a few more weeks
Within UK the devolved nations, Scotland, Wales and NI, are empowered to decide such things for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 May 18 - 10:08 AM

Most of this is nonsense. So long as the government is dependant on DUP support, it cannot carry through any legislation that the DUP opposes. The only way to escape that would be a General Election, and that can only happen if there is a significant Tory backbench revolt.

"If the UK is one country then there should be one set of laws for all from the Isles of Scilly up to the Shetlands, from East Anglia to County Fermanagh." The suggestion that it would be conceivable for any Westminster government to renege on devolution, and resume a power to legislate for the whole of the UK on all matters is totally unrealistic, even if there was any possibility of getting a parliamentary majority for it. The It would almost certainly lead to escalating trouble not merely in Northern Ireland, but also very probably in Scotland and Wales, very likely to take violent forms.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 May 18 - 10:48 AM

The suggestion that it would be conceivable for any Westminster government to renege on devolution, and resume a power to legislate for the whole of the UK on all matters is totally unrealistic, even if there was any possibility of getting a parliamentary majority for it. The It would almost certainly lead to escalating trouble not merely in Northern Ireland, but also very probably in Scotland and Wales, very likely to take violent forms.

There again, if put to the people in the devolved areas the results might be surprising.

There appears to be a good support for reversing devolution for Wales. It is just an additional level of bureaucracy and cost.
The original vote in 1997 was carried on a vote of 50.3%, on only a 50.2% turnout so less than 26% (of the Welsh electorate) actually voted for devolution.

In contrast, the Scots had a 74.3% vote in favour on a 60.1% turnout, so almost 45% of the Scots electorate.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 18 - 10:50 AM

"so is Ireland for a few more weeks"
PIE IN THE ******* SKY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 May 18 - 11:41 AM

Something I've been pondering in recent days.

I wonder if those same people who are anti abortion are in favour of the death penalty.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 18 - 11:46 AM

" anti abortion are in favour of the death penalty."
Or war ?
\\\\\\jim

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 29 May 18 - 12:16 PM

What puzzles me in all this is that the existing David Steel Abortion Act of 1967 came about long before there was any devolved government, and yet the Act applied to England Scotland and Wales, but not Northern Ireland, so how come? Was it political and religious opposition then?
However, Scotland has always had a different legal system for some things from that of England and Wales, and yet was also covered by the Act. There have been some amendments to the Act since, but these again affected England, Scotland and Wales. But we are talking about over 50 years of N Ireland doing things differently from the rest of what is supposed to be the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 18 - 12:20 PM

NI had a degree of self government from 1922.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 18 - 01:55 PM

The salient point is that Northern Ireland has no form of government at all save government from Westminster. Arguing about whether devolution is a good or bad thing is for another time. Though we could argue about whether deciding on women getting their basic human rights or not should ever be "devolved." But you can't devolve a matter to a non-existent administration. Keeping basic public services afloat in NI is essentially the responsibility of Westminster as things currently stand. I'm waiting for someone to tell me why legislating on human rights should be any different.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 29 May 18 - 03:24 PM

" I'm waiting for someone to tell me why legislating on human rights should be any different."
If you cannot appreciate the pitfalls of Westminster imposing legislation that flies against the will of the majority party there is no real point in discussing it further with you. Surely you can understand the way that a court determining the need for abortion on the basis of human rights abuses smooths the path of future legislation as opposed to an arbitrary decision to impose legislation from outside.

As far as I am aware the UK has always modified legislation to comply with human rights determinations.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 18 - 04:45 PM

Sorry, mate, but you're not listening. The Supreme Court is not going to be considering the big picture, which is whether NI women can access abortion on the same terms as other women in the self-same nation. It's going to be about incest, fatal foetal abnormalities and rape. That's all. Calling for a delay until they sit is a tactic that simply perpetuates the abuse of women in NI. And, de facto, there is no "majority party" because there is no devolved administration and there hasn't been for the last sixteen months. There is no evidence for the oft trotted-out received wisdom that Westminster voting to liberalise the abortion laws in NI would be "going against the will of the people." The people have seen what has just happened, amazingly, in the Republic. The vast majority of DUP voters already disagree with the hard line on fatal foetal abnormalities, incest and rape. You can look that up. The writing is on the wall for the DUP stance and the only way they can (temporarily) resist a change in the law is to continue to refuse to sit round the table with Sinn Fein.

And don't be so bloody rude, by the way. Get your facts straight first, then at least you won't look quite so daft when you enter excoriating mode.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 May 18 - 04:46 PM

The Irish always have Astronauts!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 18 - 06:57 PM

The Irish Government have offered the women of Northern Ireland to cross the border to obtain pregnancy terminations when legislation is in place
Bit of a turn-up for the book and another step towards a United Ireland, I think
"NI had a degree of self government from 1922."
People tend to forget that partition only gave a voice to two-thirds of Ireland, the Catholic minority had no say in their lives
The times they are a-changing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 18 - 07:02 PM

Absolutely they are. I have a feeling that the DUP dinosaurs simply don't get it.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 May 18 - 03:31 AM

At long last ,moving forward, despite catholic priests lecturing voters from the pulpit that repeal of 8th amendment was a mortal sin.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 18 - 03:42 AM

"The vast majority of DUP voters already disagree with the hard line on fatal foetal abnormalities, incest and rape."

I cannot find anything to support that assertion. Perhaps you would like to substantiate the claim, before you start claiming people are rude?
Is that a tactic to stifle argument?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 18 - 04:14 AM

Steve,
to continue to refuse to sit round the table with Sinn Fein.

They are not refusing, and it was Sinn Fein that walked out.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 18 - 04:21 AM

The abandonment of Northern Irish women by May's Government has now extended to the new bill on domestic violence going through Parliament at present
MPs from both parties and some Tory ministers are demanding that it should cover the Six Counties
It will be interesting to see if he who pays the piper is still calling the tune.
A Catholic Bishop has said publicly that all Catholics who voted "Yes" should ask forgiveness at confessions for having done so
As if the latest revelations concerning a Home run by Nuns having carried out unofficial secret adoptions of their inmates wasn't enough...
Perhaps priests made redundant by an ever-shrinking church might seek employment as coffin-nail drivers!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 May 18 - 05:28 AM

devolved countries are empowered to decide such things...

'such things'.....such things as what Keith?

surely we are talking very basic human rights. what a woman does with her own body.

where would it stop?

would we concede the right to beat your wife....the right to shit in the water supply...the right to dance a jig on the M1?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 May 18 - 05:46 AM

From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 18 - 04:21 AM
The abandonment of Northern Irish women by May's Government has now extended to the new bill on domestic violence going through Parliament at present
MPs from both parties and some Tory ministers are demanding that it should cover the Six Counties
It will be interesting to see if he who pays the piper is still calling the tune.

For someone who seems to want a united Ireland (separate from the UK), you seem to also wish to disregard the extent of self-governance that the North has already achieved.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 18 - 07:05 AM

However, Nigel, there is currently no Northern Ireland government. So its self-governance, regrettably, is in abeyance.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 18 - 07:09 AM

Sorry, I notice that Steve made that point yesterday, but he seems to have been ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 May 18 - 07:42 AM

Is that a reason for the UK government to take over though?
No matter how valid we might think the proposed changes, do we have the right to impose them?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 18 - 07:44 AM

Before it went in abeyance the NI Assembly easily voted down the most minor reform on abortion.
I think they were wrong and a bit mad but before we impose our will and values on another country (albeit within UK), do we have that right?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 18 - 07:46 AM

Who else? Republic of Ireland? EU? UN? Has to be someone.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 May 18 - 07:57 AM

Who else? Republic of Ireland? EU? UN? Has to be someone
Why does it 'have to be someone'?

I think this is a throwback to Imperialism. "We don't like the way you run your country. We'll impose our laws instead."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 30 May 18 - 08:27 AM

Dedicated to those who made no issue of NI & Abortion before the referendum

Rome wasn't built in a day and it bastions will not be demolished in a day either

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 18 - 09:28 AM

It isn't "your country." It's a part of "our country," and it our business because they are currently powerless and because it's human rights were talking about here.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 18 - 10:17 AM

Edited version.
The Assembly has only been down 18 months and will be back any time.
Meanwhile Westminster makes decisions for the day to day running of the place but nothing contentious or of lasting consequence.

The situation on abortion has existed on both sides of the border for centuries.
We could jump in and change their laws for them but what a precedent that would be setting!
Do you trust the Tories and DUP not to follow with a string of changes that they think worth rushing through before the Assembly is back and running, with Sinn Fein marginalised?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 May 18 - 10:23 AM

a precedent of goodwill to a neighbouring nation, and an indication that we approve of their burgeoning separation of state and church.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 18 - 10:35 AM

Nigel, its not someone else's country, it is part of the UK. The Northern Ireland assembly is a devolved administration, powers are devolved from the UK government to that assembly. As that assembly is not functioning, those powers have been returned to the UK government. The UK government is duty bound to exercise those powers in the interests of the people of Northern Ireland, note first, not its politicians. Note second, in the interests of the people, not in accordance with their views.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 18 - 10:37 AM

Keith, not I don't trust the Tories and the DUP an inch, they are proceeding with Brexit which is far more damaging to Northern Ireland than anything else they could do, short perhaps of setting off the entire UK nuclear arsenal in Belfast.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 May 18 - 11:03 AM

Nigel, its not someone else's country, it is part of the UK.
The United Kingdom is a sovereign country. It is made up of 4 smaller countries.
As a resident of Wales I get a say in what happens in the UK, and in what happens (for devolved matters) in Wales. I do not expect to have a say about devolved matters in Northern Ireland, just as I would not expect them to have a say in any matters which are devolved to the Welsh Assembly.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 18 - 11:06 AM

But if the Welsh assembly could not form a government Nigel, they would do.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 18 - 11:08 AM

Actually it sounds Nigel as if what you really want is independence rather than devolution. Which is a reasonable thing to want, and maybe you should campaign for it. You could always blow up some reservoirs.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 May 18 - 11:46 AM

From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 18 - 11:08 AM
Actually it sounds Nigel as if what you really want is independence rather than devolution. Which is a reasonable thing to want, and maybe you should campaign for it. You could always blow up some reservoirs.

That has been tried in the past, and as such, sounds like a racist comment. It could even be seen as an incitement to action.

I would just as soon we didn't have devolved authority, but am commenting on things as they currently stand, not as I would like them to stand.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 18 - 11:49 AM

I make no judgement as to whether blowing up reservoirs in the cause of freedom is justified or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 18 - 11:56 AM

David,
Keith, not I don't trust the Tories and the DUP an inch,

Then do not give them a free hand to run NI by themselves.

The UK government is duty bound to exercise those powers in the interests of the people of Northern Ireland,

And they have been on day to day issues, but avoiding anything contentious or of lasting consequence. The people of NI approve of that.
They do not want a power grab because of a passing spat inside Stormont.

The abortion laws have been in place for ever on both sides of the border. In a few weeks NI women can cross the border for treatment.
Ireland has huge and unfathomable (to us) sensitivities.
Do nothing in haste.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 18 - 12:26 PM

You are not commenting on things as they stand, Nigel. As things stand, there is no administration in NI to devolve anything to. Talking about devolved matters is nonsensical. Life must go on, and we are talking about human rights denial here. Second, you opponents of change are constantly talking as though NI is a different country. Well it just isn't. In the current vacuum Westminster has a duty to keep running NI in all aspects. The fact that the one issue you are focussing on which you don't want dealing with is a matter of human rights and bringing the abuse of women to an end is doubly disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 18 - 01:10 PM

Steve,
Well it just isn't. In the current vacuum Westminster has a duty to keep running NI in all aspects.

A Westminster dominated by Tories plus DUP.
Sinn Fein does not even have a voice there.
Most NI people would be likely to prefer continued caretaking until Stormont gets over its spat.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 18 - 01:26 PM

"It isn't "your country." It's a part of "our country," and it our business because they are currently powerless and because it's human rights were talking about here. "

Cue pantomime response: Oh no it is not. See below. I believe the definitive answer from the court has yet to be issued.
It ain't 'uman rights til the court says so. Right?




https://fullfact.org/law/abortions-court-northern-ireland/

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Tootler
Date: 30 May 18 - 01:28 PM

Steve,

While you may be right in theory, practical politics says the the Westminster government has to tread very carefully given the divisive nature of NI politics. While I have no truck with May's Tory government, I suspect they would have been reluctant to act even if they were't in thrall to the DUP.

If there was strong and compelling evidence that the NI people would welcome an intervention to legislate for abortion, then the Westminster government should go ahead, but first they need to have that strong amd compelling evidence which at the moment they do not have. It's possible that NI's people would welcome such an intervention but we don't know if that's the case and it may not be so until they have such evidence, they should tread carefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 18 - 01:28 PM

"Most NI people would be likely to prefer continued caretaking until Stormont gets over its spat."
You people have no idea wghat the Northern Ireland people want - you never have had
Thanks to English misgovernance nobody even knows what the elected representatives want othat than in the main they want sfa to do with Brexit

"The Assembly has only been down 18 months and will be back any time."
A year and a half without a Government is that all !!!!
Bloody insane to allow it and even more insane to pass it off as unimportant
"you seem to also wish to disregard the extent of self-governance that the North has already achieved."
I do Nigel - but while that isn't happening I want Irish women to have the same rights as Englishwomen and not have to go to a Human Rights court to get them
What kind of a bucket-shop is your government running and why are you defending it ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 18 - 01:34 PM

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/30/tory-deputy-chair-attacks-mps-over-northern-ireland-abortion-law

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 May 18 - 01:47 PM

A GREAT STEP FORWARD FOR REP OF IRELAND

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 18 - 02:04 PM

Should the court hearing determine human rights have been breached in the matter of women and existing abortion law it then becomes easier and less contentious to pass amending legislation. In these circumstances the present law could go beyond the raw findings of the Court and come closer in line to existing English legislation.

You cannot have an argument to keep out of N. Irish Politics and also argue for a change in the law to be arbitrarily imposed. The majority party is against a change, therefore there would be an obvious reluctance to challenge them. Realpolitik in action. Not desirable but in the morass of N. Ireland politics is there any viable alternative, without wholesale mayhem?
Most people would agree the present Abortion law needs to be changed.
The best possible way to change the law is after the upcoming court case, assuming the verdict is positive. The UK has always been quick to legislate when found in breach of human rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 18 - 02:14 PM

There is no majority party in the NI assembly.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 18 - 02:15 PM

"You cannot have an argument to keep out of N. Irish Politics and also argue for a change in the law to be arbitrarily imposed."
Britain is already IN Northern Ireland politics and while it is it bears a large part of the responsibility of what happens there
It is a bit more specific than "Britain's" responsibility
The ruling Party in Britain (just) is The Conservative and Unionist Party
The barrier to Northern Ireland getting the same rights as Britain are The Unionists - placing the responsibility firmly in Maggie May's lap
On the one hand we have some litle Englishman telling the Itish what they want, on the other, you have a couple of Tories saying "nuffin' to do with us guv"
What an utter shower between the lot of you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 May 18 - 02:25 PM

It's pointless arguing that the Westminster government "ought" to legislate to change the law in Northern Ireland. It doesn't have the ability to do that, because without DUP support it ceases to exist.

It would of course be a good thing for this government to cease to exist, so in a sense that is what "ought" to happen, but that's another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 18 - 02:40 PM

"because without DUP support it ceases to exist."
There you have it in a nutshell Mac
This crowd have put Britain in hock to a bunch of bigots
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 18 - 02:59 PM

Yes. They call it realpolitik! That is the world we live in and it ain't going to change overnight. You can wish all you like but practicalities dictate the reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 18 - 03:30 PM

"
There is no majority party in the NI assembly"

Who said there was?

I said majority party. In the UK election DUP 10 seats, Sinn Féin 7 seats, Independant !

Majority = A majority is the greater part, or more than half, of the total. It is a subset of a set consisting of more than half of the set's elements

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 18 - 03:43 PM

Majority party in the UK, sadly, is the Conservative party. The fact that the DUP has more seats than Sinn Fein (sorry, can't do the accents) has no bearing on NI legislation. Either its an assembly function or its a Westminster function.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 May 18 - 04:04 PM

The Conservative Party is not the majority party in the House of Commons, it’s just the largest party. That's why it had to buy in the DUP to give them a majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 18 - 04:18 PM

DC The context is northern Ireland. Do I have to spoonfeed everything?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 18 - 04:41 PM

You yourself certainly need to be spoonfed the remit of the Supreme Court. Any ruling it reaches will not settle anything you think it may settle. Do your homework.

"It's pointless arguing that the Westminster government "ought" to legislate to change the law in Northern Ireland. It doesn't have the ability to do that, because without DUP support it ceases to exist."

Incorrect. Yes it does have the ability. The Commons can vote to change the legislation. And almost certainly would. Were the government to facilitate such a vote, the DUP (against its own interests, but let's not forget what idiots they are) would probably bring down the government. But that prospect doesn't mean that the government doesn't have the ability. Yes it does. The only thing stopping it would be their putting Tory party interests first.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 May 18 - 04:52 PM

Northern Ireland has an assembly which has equal numbers of DUP and SF members, and can't form a government.

Westminster has a composition which has the conservatives as the largest party.

That subset of Westminster MPs who hail from Northern Irish constituencies has no mandate to do anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 18 - 04:59 PM

"Do I have to spoonfeed everything?
You don't know enough
to be arrogant about anything Iains
Stop trying to close this thread - if you have no decent response you have no reponse - insulting doesn't hack it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 May 18 - 06:49 PM

The only thing stopping it would be their putting Tory party interests first.

And that is precisely what the Tory Party exists to do.

But I cannot see how parliamentary procedure and parliamentary arithmetic could work out the way you suggest, Steve, even if there was a revolt by Tory backbenchers. Legislation to change the law in Northern Ireland could only have any effect if it was government legislation. A motion by the opposition, or by backbenchers of any party, even if it passed, would be merely an expression of opinion.

If this was treated as a vote of confidence, and the government fell, Jeremy Corbyn would be invited to form a government. Unless a significant number of Tories supported a vote of confidence for him, he would be unable to do so. A new leader of the Tory party might be given a chance to form a government, but they would need DUP backing to form a government. If they could not, parliament would be dissolved for a fresh General Election.

I can see no circumstances in which it is possible for the present parliament to make the legislative changes you suggest, even if a majority of members might wish to do that. Unless there was to be a breakaway group of Tories willing to support Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister, which I do not see as a credible scenario. (It is theoretically possible that an alternative Tory leader could seek allies from other parties to replace the DUP - but I find that highly improbable. Can we envisage the LibDems or SNP cut their throats by doing that? Or even a bunch of Blairites?)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 May 18 - 12:31 AM

"Majority party in the UK, sadly, is the Conservative party."
it did not have a majority of votes, the labour and lberal parties had more votes, they just had more seats because of the electoral system and gerry mandering [altering boundaries to suit their party

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 31 May 18 - 03:07 AM

"Do I have to spoonfeed everything?
You don't know enough
to be arrogant about anything Iains
Stop trying to close this thread - if you have no decent response you have no reponse - insulting doesn't hack it
Jim Carroll

Making your usual nonsensical observations I see. What a clown!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 31 May 18 - 03:26 AM

Especially when what you claim to be spoonfeeding is irrelevant, and has ben stated before. Keep the discussion civil Iains, and reply instead to my post at 04:42. What remit to the Northern Irish MPs at Westminster have to do anything? This goes back to the West Lothian question, and the attempts of the Tories to fudge it. Difference is that the number of Northern Ireland MPs is very small.

McGrath makes a more serious point, which is that May is beholden to the DUP, she won't face them down and she won't resign. She is, in Scottish parlance, frit.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 May 18 - 03:29 AM

"Majority party in the UK, sadly, is the Conservative party."
it did not have a majority of votes, the labour and lberal parties had more votes, they just had more seats because of the electoral system and gerry mandering [altering boundaries to suit their party

The Labour & Liberal parties may have had more votes between them, but neither had 'more votes' than the Conservative party: Electoral Commission 2017 Election Conservatives had 42% of the total vote, labour 40%.
As for claims of gerrymandering, proposals put forward by the coalition government have not been implemented, and the previous bias (in favour of Labour) remains. See The Guardian

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 31 May 18 - 03:41 AM

May is beholden to the DUP, she won't face them down and she won't resign. She is, in Scottish parlance, frit.
Welcome to realpolitik! That is why I feel that legislation will only occur after the court determination - providing it is positive. Even then the outcome would be contentious.


Personally I think May is toast. Another Election is required because in my opinion she was only shoe horned in to fill the void created by Camerons gross miscalculation. She has no mandate and a very iffy future.

A Fresh election would clear the air over brexit and the dominoes need to fall where they will fall. Whatever course of action is then subsequently followed would hopefully be less divisive than the present situation, where quislings are encouraging the EU to stall and impose totally unreasonable conditions. Remainers may not like to see it stated in these terms but that is the reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 May 18 - 04:12 AM

The very large majority of the population who did not allow themselves to be bamboozled by sound-bites, racist slogans on vans, lies on buses, xenophobic rhetoric, a mindlessly-repeated ad-nauseam 'Take Back Control', and a daft, airy-fairy idea of returning to the 1960s and prior, to vote 'Leave' can not, by any stretch of the imagination, be described as 'quislings'. These are people who believe they have the very best interests of the UK at heart, as part of an established, co-operative bloc of nations who trade together and in the wider world, and take advantage of a homogenised tax/tariff system.

We have been sold down the river by the Brexit-Boobies - that's fact - but, the last time I checked, this is a democratic country, anyone and everyone who so wishes has the right to challenge the status quo, provided they do it by peaceful means. Before the Referendum, Old Haddock-Face declared that, if there was a small majority, say three or four percent, in favour of 'Remain', he would challenge it and do everything he could to get a second referendum.

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 18 - 04:21 AM

"That is why I feel that legislation will only occur after the court determination "
If people have to turn to courts (and the expense and time that implies) then the system is no longer fit for purpose
Your abusive behavior is not only an indication that you haven't a clue of what you are attempting to discuss
If you can't behave like an adult without using your usual childish rhetoric then leave the subject to those who can

For general Ireland is about to enter yet another major debate regarding Church behaviour
It has been found that a home run by nuns adopted the practice of unofficially fostering out children without registering their birth parents and so depriving them of ever discovering their real identities
It was thought the number was around 150, it is suggested that 15,000 adoptions need to be examined
IRELAND IS TRYIN TO CLEAN UP HER ACT
It's about time Britain made the same effort
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 18 - 05:11 AM

The Supreme Court will decide on the matters of abortion in the cases of fatal foetal abnormality, rape or incest. Anyone who still thinks that it is likely to overturn the ban on abortion simply isn't listening. Even a favourable ruling will not see NI women stopping travelling abroad for abortions. Waiting for their decision is therefore a red herring. A delaying tactic even, depending on your motivation. It's the answer to nothing. And while we wait fruitlessly for their decision, the vast majority of NI women who need abortions for reasons other than those very restricted circumstances will continue to suffer.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 18 - 05:12 AM

Waiting for the Supreme Court decision, obviously.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 May 18 - 05:18 AM

The very large majority of the population who did not allow themselves to be bamboozled by sound-bites, racist slogans on vans, lies on buses, xenophobic rhetoric, a mindlessly-repeated ad-nauseam 'Take Back Control', and a daft, airy-fairy idea of returning to the 1960s and prior, to vote 'Leave' can not, by any stretch of the imagination, be described as 'quislings'. These are people who believe they have the very best interests of the UK at heart, as part of an established, co-operative bloc of nations who trade together and in the wider world, and take advantage of a homogenised tax/tariff system.

And, unless you can show that all those who didn't vote would have voted to remain: An even larger 'majority' did not allow themselves to be bamboozled by the false predictions of 'Project Fear'. Those who voted leave (except if for purely personal financial considerations) also had the best interests of the UK at heart.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 31 May 18 - 05:28 AM

I will take no lectures in patriotism from brexiters Iains. You have voted to stuff my country, and this will be pointed out to you forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 31 May 18 - 05:33 AM

""Majority party in the UK, sadly, is the Conservative party."
it did not have a majority of votes, the labour and lberal parties had more votes, they just had more seats because of the electoral system and gerry mandering [altering boundaries to suit their party "

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvPV4xy_Ebo&feature=youtu.be


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Periodic_Review_of_Westminster_constituencies
I suspect the accusation of gerrynmandering is taken from one of the guardians "away with the faeries allegations". The reality is the proposal is to reduce the number of seats and reflect changing demographics in order that, with limited exceptions,(the islands of nw scotland and isle of wight for example) The numbers of voters in each constituency are roughly equal.

The electoral reform body is non partisan and anyone is welcomed to contribute.

I presume no proof will be offered to support the wild allegation of gerrymandering by the tories.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 18 - 05:43 AM

Whatever the Supreme Court decides will make no difference whatsoever in this matter. That would be the case even if it were to decide that the law needed to be changed. Undoubtedly the response to any such decision would be for the British government to insist that any such action was the responsibility of the Northern Ireland government, and must be deferred until that was in a position to act.

Theresa May will do nothing, and wait for the next crisis. You can't move an object by pulling or pushing on a rope of sand.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 31 May 18 - 05:56 AM

Your abusive behavior is not only an indication that you haven't a clue of what you are attempting to discuss
If you can't behave like an adult without using your usual childish rhetoric then leave the subject to those who can

Mirror mirror on the wall who is the most abusive of them all? Would jimmie like some of his examples?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 18 - 06:04 AM

Keith's suggestion is that blank Iain's serial abuser behavior
All in favour?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 18 - 06:19 AM

Seems to me the only way to stop threads getting closed is to remove the serial offenders ourselves
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 18 - 06:34 AM

I haven't been able to fathom what Iains is on about most of the time. That is not a request for him to explain what that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 18 - 07:32 AM

Keith's suggestion is that blank Iain's serial abuser behavior

Not my suggestion.
I just reminded all members of the pack to obey their Gruppen-Fuehrers.
Free thought is not permitted.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 18 - 07:38 AM

Wouldn't it be a good idea if we turned our attention to the topic rather that batting back and forth insults?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 31 May 18 - 07:45 AM

AN admirable idea.
My sole point about the impending court decision is that it would ease the pain of imposed legislation. There is no epidural equivalent for making such legislation pain free, given the present state of governance in northern ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 18 - 08:27 AM

Northern Irish police have threatened to arrest women who accept free abortion pills at an organised rally
Interesting to see if this reaches the civil disobedience level

(my suggestion on the other matter still stands until the two people it is aimed at clean up their act, otherwise no thread is safe from their behaviour)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 May 18 - 08:42 AM

For more on Jim's claim see Belfast Telegraph

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 18 - 08:58 AM

Thank you Nigel
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 18 - 07:40 PM

Interesting development revealed in an interview with a Labour MP tonight
Apparently the law making abortion illegal in Northern Ireland is not Irish but a 150 year old redundant British one
In Britain it has been superseded by laws making abortion legal, but the old law has never been removed from the statute books
When the PSNI threatened to have the protesters who took (or pretended to take) abortion pills at the rally today arrested they did so using a 150 year old British law that applies only to the Six Counties
The MP interviewed is attempting to get the law repealed, thus allowing women who wish to to end unwanted pregnancies without fear of prosecution
Bit of a dilemma for a Government in hock to the DUP; they can only agree to repeal the law at the risk of losing DUP support; if tey refuse, they have blown the gaff on why they are really refusing to support Irish women
Interesting to see how Maggie may or her supporters talk their way out of this one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 18 - 08:00 PM

The way they'll deal with it is not to do anything. Legislation to change the law can only be initiated by the government, and they won't do it because without DUP support they aren't a government.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 18 - 08:45 PM

A free vote in the Commons would not represent government diktat.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: robomatic
Date: 31 May 18 - 09:05 PM

What has been the frequency and outcomes of abortion in Eire prior to this period? NYT has article on performance of abortions where abortions are illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 03:11 AM

"The way they'll deal with it is not to do anything."
That is not an option any more Mac
If a member of Parliament attempts to introduce a motion to repeal the law which only effects Northern Ireland, the Government has either to agree to let it go to a vote or to refuse to do so
Either way cannot be described as "doing nothing"
Thirteen Conservative women MPs have already voiced their support for the Government intervening to introduce abortion into the Six Counties, there are undoubtedly more who have not yet stuck their head over the parapet
Transfer this to a less controversial option of repealing an old law irrelevant to most of Britain...
I don't think May can risk a Parliamentary defeat at present - do you ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 03:39 AM

"What has been the frequency and outcomes of abortion in Eire prior to this period? "

THIS WAS THE SITUATION IN THE SOUTH PRIOR TO THE REFERENDUM
Only 88 illegal abortions were registered as having taken place since the 8th Amendment was introduced
There is no record of cases being tried, but the penalty for taking an abortion pill prior to the referendum was fourteen years imprisonment

THESE ARE THE LEGAL CONSEQUENCES OF HAVING AN ABORTION IN THE NORTH
Jim Carroll

There are no figures on how many illegal abortions are carried out in the North, but it is significant that many women demonstrating yesterday were carrying coat-hangers!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 05:30 AM

Apparently the law making abortion illegal in Northern Ireland is not Irish but a 150 year old redundant British one

There was no devolution then so it applied to GB and Ireland.
Mainland GB decided on abortion reform, but Ireland North and South decided not to.
RI has only just decided to and it has yet to be enacted.
NI has yet to decide.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 06:11 AM

The law still applies to Britain as a whole Keith and will nontinue to do so until it is repealed
That is the only law available to the PSNI to prevent women taking the abortion pill
Do you wonder why people don't wish to talk to you !!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 06:13 AM

PLEASE READ THIS for C o L
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 06:22 AM

Okay Jim. We take your word for it. People in NI are no different to us. They want the same kinds of freedom that we do.

So WHY in god's name do they vote for these very intemperate people?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 06:26 AM

The law still applies to Britain as a whole Keith and will nontinue to do so until it is repealed.

NO! it has been superseded in the Englands by superior statutes.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 07:24 AM

what's a superior statute?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 07:32 AM

A statute is an Act of Parliament. After legislation has been proposed it begins life as a bill, passes various readings in both the House of Commons and the House of Lords before receiving Royal Assent and becoming law
A superior one is a later one that modifies/replaces/repeals previous legislation/statutes

""Law" refers to the entire body of statutory, administrative, and common law provisions that regulate our society. A "statute" is the specific, codified statement of some law that has been approved by the legislative body (and often endorsed by the executive body) of a government."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 07:40 AM

"So WHY in god's name do they vote for these very intemperate people?"
Because England gerrymandered an unequally divided State where property ownership was a deciding factor in whether or not you had the right to vote - disadvantaging the third Catholic minority - one of the early actions after independence was to abolish the existing Proportional representative system
The inequality led to nearly fifty years of sectarian violence (still displayed on the "Glorious 12th") and eventually The Troubles
Gradually, the gap has been lessened, both between the different communities and in the rights which were fought for - the "only one and a half years" of having no Government has brought that to a screeching halt (hence the present stalemate over abortion)
Brexit and issues such as this have made a United Ireland almost inevitable - till then, we're stuck with the "interpenetrates"
Arlene Foster says she will not live in a United Ireland - interested to see where she will choose as her new home to suit her politics
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 07:43 AM

To be really boring.

Only Parliament may enact Acts of Parliament. Any such Acts are superior to all other sources of law
and may not be challenged in the courts. Although Parliament passes the legislation it is the task of
the judges to interpret it - this is known as Statutory Interpretation

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 07:47 AM

I don't believe that any of this alters May's dilemma one iota
The PSNI are using a British law to prevent the use of the abortion pill and it lies within the remit of the Government to remove that law from the statute books
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 08:29 AM

The law still applies to Britain as a whole Keith and will nontinue to do so until it is repealed
That is the only law available to the PSNI to prevent women taking the abortion pill

The British changed the law on abortion but the Irish, North and South, chose not to.
Not our fault. Their choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 08:36 AM

The current spat between NI parties is not our fault either.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 08:36 AM

"Their choice" is to deny choice and continue with the repression of women. Some choice. I seem to remember that Pontius Pilate shrugged and said "their choice" too. That didn't go down well with you Christians, so why should this?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 08:45 AM

I don't believe that any of this alters May's dilemma one iota
The PSNI are using a British law to prevent the use of the abortion pill and it lies within the remit of the Government to remove that law from the statute books
But as (due to subsequent law changes applicable only to 'Great Britain') that law is now only effective in Northern Ireland, and Northern Ireland has achieved a measure of self-determination, it is not a matter in which Theresa May can easily act.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 08:49 AM

"Their choice" is to deny choice and continue with the repression of women. Some choice. I seem to remember that Pontius Pilate shrugged and said "their choice" too. That didn't go down well with you Christians, so why should this?

'Their choice' could just as easily be said to be one of the final hold-outs for the rights of the unborn child.

As for Pilate, he 'devolved' his choice to the Jews, not the Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 08:59 AM

"So WHY in god's name do they vote for these very intemperate people?"
Because England gerrymandered an unequally divided State

Not true.
2017, DUP got the biggest vote fair and square, slightly ahead of Sinn Fein.
Add in UUP and Unionists still well in front.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 09:01 AM

So what? His shrugging has gone down badly with Christians. What I said, what I meant. And this is about arguing for the same rights for women in Ireland, Northern Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales. If you want to start a pointless debate about the rights of the unborn child or the moment when life begins, etc., start a new thread. You won't find me in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 09:25 AM

"Their choice' could just as easily be said to be one of the final hold-outs for the rights of the unborn child."
And it could be described as the last stand of a bunch of prehistoric bigots
You appear not to have a great deal of time for either the British and the Irish people in the other counties
Nor does it show much respect for the people of the six counties who, it would seem., you refuse to give the right to decide for themselves rather than leave it to that same bunch of prehistoric bigots
Maybe it's time to start demanding a repeal of the British laws on abortion - waddya think Nigel?
If not, why not?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 10:44 AM

Im might have added, the same prehistoric bigots who refuse to recognise same sex marriage, refuse to launch an investigation into clerical abuse and who introduced the gun into twentieth century Irish politics to back up their bigotry (but I won't bother as everybody already knows that already)
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 11:18 AM

"Their choice" is to deny choice and continue with the repression of women.

Yes. Few here think like them, but it remains their choice.
Should we have reoccupied RoI when they did not follow us immediately on abortion and gay marriage?

I have no doubt that NI will see sense eventually, but they would hate us all the more if we imposed it on them before they were ready.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 11:20 AM

Im might have added, the same prehistoric bigots who refuse to recognise same sex marriage, refuse to launch an investigation into clerical abuse and who introduced the gun into twentieth century Irish politics to back up their bigotry

No. The Catholic Church has much less influence in the North.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 11:36 AM

It's the Prods who have backed sectarianism, have held out against same-sex marriage, and who are quite likely to have been just as prolific at raping Children as were the Catholic clergyman
I can't think of a Southern counterpart to Paisley or Peter Robinson
Nothing to choose between either of them
The difference is that the Republic is shaing off the Christian demons clinging to their back - the North has yet to start, https://republican-news.org/current/news/2017/07/scottish_clampdown_on_orange_s.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 11:36 AM

It's the Prods who have backed sectarianism, have held out against same-sex marriage, and who are quite likely to have been just as prolific at raping Children as were the Catholic clergyman
I can't think of a Southern counterpart to Paisley or Peter Robinson
Nothing to choose between either of them
The difference is that the Republic is shaing off the Christian demons clinging to their back - the North has yet to start, https://republican-news.org/current/news/2017/07/scottish_clampdown_on_orange_s.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 12:37 PM

Whoops loops
Go do 100 lines

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 12:37 PM

I do not think you should use your sectarian language on here Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 01:51 PM

The phrase "two cheeks of the same arse" comes to mind here.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 01:56 PM

PROD the language of a bigoted,,racist, inflammatory fool.

I believe the mods should delete the post Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 11:36 AM

Such language has no place on a public forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 02:14 PM

From earlier, but uncommented on: "I just reminded all members of the pack to obey their Gruppen-Fuehrers."

Think I'd rather be called a prod any day.... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 03:44 PM

Well I don't think Prod is inflammatory. Its what my catholic cousins grew up calling me. its what I am - a proddy dog. woof!

But I do think it gives the lie to Jim's argument that the people of Northern Ireland want all the personal freedoms we on the mainland enjoy.

'It's the Prods who have backed sectarianism, have held out against same-sex marriage, and who are quite likely to have been just as prolific at raping Children as were the Catholic clergyman'

well that's half the people who don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 01 Jun 18 - 03:45 PM

"It's the Prods who have backed sectarianism, have held out against same-sex marriage, and who are quite likely to have been just as prolific at raping Children as were the Catholic clergyman

Care to give some proof for that scandalous statement? or is it a totally unwarranted slur? I suggest you substantiate your allegation or publicly apologize on this forum.

"A REPORT INTO institutional abuse at children’s homes in Northern Ireland has found that there was ‘widespread abuse’ at such facilities between 1922 and 1995.

The Historical Institutional Abuse inquiry had looked into allegations of abuse at 22 such children’s homes across Northern Ireland.

The largest number of complaints stemmed from four different Catholic-run institutions.