BS: Irish referendum

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 18 - 04:21 AM

The abandonment of Northern Irish women by May's Government has now extended to the new bill on domestic violence going through Parliament at present
MPs from both parties and some Tory ministers are demanding that it should cover the Six Counties
It will be interesting to see if he who pays the piper is still calling the tune.
A Catholic Bishop has said publicly that all Catholics who voted "Yes" should ask forgiveness at confessions for having done so
As if the latest revelations concerning a Home run by Nuns having carried out unofficial secret adoptions of their inmates wasn't enough...
Perhaps priests made redundant by an ever-shrinking church might seek employment as coffin-nail drivers!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 18 - 04:14 AM

Steve,
to continue to refuse to sit round the table with Sinn Fein.

They are not refusing, and it was Sinn Fein that walked out.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 30 May 18 - 03:42 AM

"The vast majority of DUP voters already disagree with the hard line on fatal foetal abnormalities, incest and rape."

I cannot find anything to support that assertion. Perhaps you would like to substantiate the claim, before you start claiming people are rude?
Is that a tactic to stifle argument?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 May 18 - 03:31 AM

At long last ,moving forward, despite catholic priests lecturing voters from the pulpit that repeal of 8th amendment was a mortal sin.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 18 - 07:02 PM

Absolutely they are. I have a feeling that the DUP dinosaurs simply don't get it.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 18 - 06:57 PM

The Irish Government have offered the women of Northern Ireland to cross the border to obtain pregnancy terminations when legislation is in place
Bit of a turn-up for the book and another step towards a United Ireland, I think
"NI had a degree of self government from 1922."
People tend to forget that partition only gave a voice to two-thirds of Ireland, the Catholic minority had no say in their lives
The times they are a-changing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 May 18 - 04:46 PM

The Irish always have Astronauts!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 18 - 04:45 PM

Sorry, mate, but you're not listening. The Supreme Court is not going to be considering the big picture, which is whether NI women can access abortion on the same terms as other women in the self-same nation. It's going to be about incest, fatal foetal abnormalities and rape. That's all. Calling for a delay until they sit is a tactic that simply perpetuates the abuse of women in NI. And, de facto, there is no "majority party" because there is no devolved administration and there hasn't been for the last sixteen months. There is no evidence for the oft trotted-out received wisdom that Westminster voting to liberalise the abortion laws in NI would be "going against the will of the people." The people have seen what has just happened, amazingly, in the Republic. The vast majority of DUP voters already disagree with the hard line on fatal foetal abnormalities, incest and rape. You can look that up. The writing is on the wall for the DUP stance and the only way they can (temporarily) resist a change in the law is to continue to refuse to sit round the table with Sinn Fein.

And don't be so bloody rude, by the way. Get your facts straight first, then at least you won't look quite so daft when you enter excoriating mode.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 29 May 18 - 03:24 PM

" I'm waiting for someone to tell me why legislating on human rights should be any different."
If you cannot appreciate the pitfalls of Westminster imposing legislation that flies against the will of the majority party there is no real point in discussing it further with you. Surely you can understand the way that a court determining the need for abortion on the basis of human rights abuses smooths the path of future legislation as opposed to an arbitrary decision to impose legislation from outside.

As far as I am aware the UK has always modified legislation to comply with human rights determinations.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 18 - 01:55 PM

The salient point is that Northern Ireland has no form of government at all save government from Westminster. Arguing about whether devolution is a good or bad thing is for another time. Though we could argue about whether deciding on women getting their basic human rights or not should ever be "devolved." But you can't devolve a matter to a non-existent administration. Keeping basic public services afloat in NI is essentially the responsibility of Westminster as things currently stand. I'm waiting for someone to tell me why legislating on human rights should be any different.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 18 - 12:20 PM

NI had a degree of self government from 1922.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 29 May 18 - 12:16 PM

What puzzles me in all this is that the existing David Steel Abortion Act of 1967 came about long before there was any devolved government, and yet the Act applied to England Scotland and Wales, but not Northern Ireland, so how come? Was it political and religious opposition then?
However, Scotland has always had a different legal system for some things from that of England and Wales, and yet was also covered by the Act. There have been some amendments to the Act since, but these again affected England, Scotland and Wales. But we are talking about over 50 years of N Ireland doing things differently from the rest of what is supposed to be the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 18 - 11:46 AM

" anti abortion are in favour of the death penalty."
Or war ?
\\\\\\jim

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 May 18 - 11:41 AM

Something I've been pondering in recent days.

I wonder if those same people who are anti abortion are in favour of the death penalty.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 18 - 10:50 AM

"so is Ireland for a few more weeks"
PIE IN THE ******* SKY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 May 18 - 10:48 AM

The suggestion that it would be conceivable for any Westminster government to renege on devolution, and resume a power to legislate for the whole of the UK on all matters is totally unrealistic, even if there was any possibility of getting a parliamentary majority for it. The It would almost certainly lead to escalating trouble not merely in Northern Ireland, but also very probably in Scotland and Wales, very likely to take violent forms.

There again, if put to the people in the devolved areas the results might be surprising.

There appears to be a good support for reversing devolution for Wales. It is just an additional level of bureaucracy and cost.
The original vote in 1997 was carried on a vote of 50.3%, on only a 50.2% turnout so less than 26% (of the Welsh electorate) actually voted for devolution.

In contrast, the Scots had a 74.3% vote in favour on a 60.1% turnout, so almost 45% of the Scots electorate.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 May 18 - 10:08 AM

Most of this is nonsense. So long as the government is dependant on DUP support, it cannot carry through any legislation that the DUP opposes. The only way to escape that would be a General Election, and that can only happen if there is a significant Tory backbench revolt.

"If the UK is one country then there should be one set of laws for all from the Isles of Scilly up to the Shetlands, from East Anglia to County Fermanagh." The suggestion that it would be conceivable for any Westminster government to renege on devolution, and resume a power to legislate for the whole of the UK on all matters is totally unrealistic, even if there was any possibility of getting a parliamentary majority for it. The It would almost certainly lead to escalating trouble not merely in Northern Ireland, but also very probably in Scotland and Wales, very likely to take violent forms.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 18 - 09:34 AM

Al,
They claim to be part of the united Kingdom. They have to obey the law.

how can that be wrong?

Anyway , doesn't that EU they all want to be part of, say they have to grant citizens rights to their subjects?

EU leaves some things to nations to decide for themselves. Malta is also out of step, and so is Ireland for a few more weeks
Within UK the devolved nations, Scotland, Wales and NI, are empowered to decide such things for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 29 May 18 - 07:41 AM

I presume from your post that you are a staunch supporter of brexit.
After all devolution flies in the face of the centrist platform of the EU.

You seem to have got that the wrong way round. Surely, if devolution flies in the face of the centrist platform of the EU, then I would be a supporter of devolution if were a supporter of brexit? I am not a supporter of either.


DC

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 18 - 07:38 AM

"Despite your unwarranted criticism you cannot dispute that they are the majority party. "
They have no overall majority now and can be outvoted if the opposition parties combine, which they are threatening to do if Stormont ever crawls into existence again
In the next few years it is quite likely that the Protestant/Catholic gap will have all but disappeared
Britain is laying taxpayers money on a dying donkey
This issue should never have been taken to Europe in the first place - that's a last resort
Their Courts can be as ponderous as any, and should they rule against interfering. the Six Counties will remain dinosaurs refusing the right of the people to vote on this issue.
Not only a waste of time and money (not to mention women's health and lives), but in the long run, totally unnecessary as, thanks to Brexit, and now this, a United Ireland is not too far away - every cloud... and all that
Let's hope all this pissing bout in Britain's Jurassic Park doesn't bring about an outbreak of sectarian violence
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 29 May 18 - 07:11 AM

Doug Chadwick
I presume from your post that you are a staunch supporter of brexit.
After all devolution flies in the face of the centrist platform of the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 18 - 07:10 AM

The Supreme Court is going to rule only on the matters of fatal foetal abnormality, rape and incest, not on the broader issue of the right to abortion. "Waiting for their decision" is a red herring.

Northern Ireland does not "have a devolved parliament" and has not had one for sixteen months. The abortion issue is highly likely to disincentivise the DUP to getting back round the table, what's more. So more delays for the abused women of Northern Ireland. The moral imperative is for the government to act by giving the Commons a vote on the issue. If you deny that, it's tantamount to your saying that the human rights of thousands of women must play second fiddle to Tory party interests.

Interesting that I get shouted at for calling the DUP shitbags, when, as far as I know, none of their MPs post here. Yet, because I oppose referendums in parliamentary democracies, I get called undemocratic and possibly a fascist. You really couldn't make this stuff up. It confirms the strong feeling that we should not engage with Keith in the slightest in future.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 29 May 18 - 07:00 AM

Not without reneging on devolution. That would not be considered acceptable by anyone.

It would be considered acceptable by me.

Devolution is the worst of both worlds. If the UK is one country then there should be one set of laws for all from the Isles of Scilly up to the Shetlands, from East Anglia to County Fermanagh. If any the constituent parts want to go their own way by democratic means, with their own laws, either as independent countries or by choosing whichever alliances they wish, that would be OK by me.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 29 May 18 - 06:44 AM

Despite your unwarranted criticism you cannot dispute that they are the majority party. Everyone that voted them in totally disagrees with you.
With your anglophobia you conveniently overlook the impact of the UK arbitrarily imposing a change in the law in Northern Ireland, in direct conflict with the majority party.
Far better to wait for the outcome of the human rights trial alluded to above. If there is a clear breach of human rights modifying the law cannot realistically be disputed.
A far more sensible approach!

From yesterdays Guardian:
A supreme court judgment on whether abortion law in Northern Ireland is incompatible with international human rights is expected this year.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 18 - 06:20 AM

The people of Northern Ireland do not think differently - they have never been invited to vote on the issue - this is pro Loyalist crap
It is the bigoted redneck government who "think differently"
It is well within Britain's remit to intervene on this issue, especially as, at present The Northern counties have no government
Britain has interfered in Northern Ireland politics whenever it has suited them to do so - now they are refusing to intervene because it suits them not to
Thanks to a crass Prime Minister taking a crass decision to hold a crass general election, Britain is now in hock to a bunch of dinosaur bigots who have so far cost a billon of the taxpayers money and are now robbing the British people of their dignity
In less than a week there are large protests in the North demanding the same rights as Irish Republic women have
Looks like the 'End of Days' for the last outpost of the British Empire - and possibly for the now Disunited Kingdom   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 29 May 18 - 06:16 AM

" If May doesn't give Parliament a vote on this she deserves to be brought down."
Northern Ireland, like Wales and Scotland has a devolved Parliament. To impose any solution from Westminster would inflame feelings and likely lead to sectarian violence. Do you really want to wish that on a country simply because of your views?
The DUP it is the party with the most seats in the Northern Ireland Assembly and the fifth-largest party in the House of Commons.
It is right-wing and socially conservative, being anti-abortion and opposing same-sex marriage. The DUP sees itself as defending Britishness and Ulster Protestant culture against Irish nationalism. The party is Eurosceptic and during the UK European Union (EU) referendum it supported the UK's withdrawal from the E

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 May 18 - 06:11 AM

Its quite simple keith. They are unionists. union with England. They claim to be part of the united Kingdom. They have to obey the law.

how can that be wrong?

Anyway , doesn't that EU they all want to be part of, say they have to grant citizens rights to their subjects?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 18 - 05:54 AM

Steve, like the vast majority on the mainland, I agree with you on abortion and gay marriage.
Inside Ireland, especially in the North, they think differently.

I don't give a monkeys about what a referendum might produce

So you have no respect for the will of the people, and seek to impose your values on them against their will if necessary.

That makes you undemocratic at best, and fascist at worst.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 18 - 05:41 AM

Irish Government to act on referendum decision withing six weeks
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 18 - 05:36 AM

I don't give a monkeys about what a referendum might produce, though I'd say it's a rock-solid certainty that it would go the same way as the Irish vote. Calling a referendum would simply be a delaying tactic that would ensure that NI women would continue to suffer for many more months, or longer, to come. We have parliamentary democracy in this country and government by referendum comes in a bloody poor second. If May doesn't give Parliament a vote on this she deserves to be brought down. Well, she deserves that anyway. And no abortion provided by another country is ever free. Last I heard, Ryanair and co. were not providing free flights and accommodation for young women to travel, many of whom are already on their uppers. Fine if you're wealthy, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 18 - 05:10 AM

The DUP holds this government to ransom, opposes abortion completely and opposes gay marriage.

Yes they do, and they have a lot of support in NI for their mad views. A referendum could well go their way, and who are we to impose our values on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 18 - 05:02 AM

Marie Stopes clinics in mainland Britain offer free abortions to women from anywhere.
NI people could not be denied NHS treatment either.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 18 - 05:01 AM

There is no administration to devolve anything to. As things stand, devolution doesn't apply. We may not call it direct rule (yet) but there is currently direct administration from Westminster. There is the constitutional right to amend laws in NI and there is now the moral imperative, following the Irish vote, to get the NI abortion regime in line with other EU countries. Getting all hands-tied-technical-can't-do-anything about human rights abuses is disgraceful. Yes we can do something and we should do it now by allowing the Commons to vote on it. The DUP have the same right to vote in the Commons as everybody else. They have no right to obstruct the changes that are urgently needed to allow women in NI their human rights.

Yes, DUP shitbags. The DUP holds this government to ransom, opposes abortion completely and opposes gay marriage. They have been involved in the sectarian repression of the large Catholic minority in Northern Ireland. My term is mild. And it's amusing to see the sanctimonious pouncing on that remark by people who themselves have a sorry record of abusing members of this forum. At least I didn't do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 29 May 18 - 04:58 AM

Nonsense from the DUP

"“Verified research has shown that the impediment of the Irish Sea has encouraged pregnant women to think again and as a result 100,000 lives have been saved in Northern Ireland.

“The referendum decision will mean that Northern Ireland and Malta will remain the only parts of Europe where the unborn child will have a high level of protection.

“The ray of hope is that our neighbours in Co Donegal voted to protect the unborn child,” he continued.

Mr Wells said the pro life movement must now redouble its efforts to prevent any change in law in Northern Ireland. “I remain totally pledged to all that I can to help them achieve this”.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 29 May 18 - 04:53 AM

Irish Times may 26th:
In the next few months the Supreme Court in London is expected to make a ruling on a case considering whether Northern Ireland abortion law breaches women’s rights.

In addition, the case of a mother being prosecuted for buying abortion pills for her daughter will be heard in September.

Last year British Labour Party MP Stella Creasy proposed an amendment to the Queen’s Speech calling for Northern Ireland women to have access to free abortions in England, where the 1967 Abortion Act allows for abortion up to 24 weeks.

The new provision was subsequently introduced by the British government but does not go far enough, campaigners have said.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 18 - 04:45 AM

Steve,
Last time I heard, Northern Ireland was part of the United Kingdom. I don't moan (much) when Westminster imposes its will on Cornwall.

Cornwall has yet to achieve devoved status. Like Scotland and Wales, NI is a devolved principality and Westminster has no power to interfere on devolved issues like abortion. They take the bare minimum of decisions to keep NI running until the assembly reforms.

We have a situation here in which the DUP can prevent abortion law reform by not forming an administration

The "administration" easily voted down the most limited reform in 2016, so it probably would again.
Also, it was Sinn Fein that walked out over a different issue, and neither side are "forming an administration" because it requires both.

legally I would doubt that. She's the boss of the Uk. she could enact the necessary acts to do what she bloody likes.

Not without reneging on devolution. That would not be considered acceptable by anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 18 - 04:15 AM

Can we stop this before it closes another thread
If anybody objects to the way people express themselves (hardly credible considering...) take it up with those upstairs
Do not close this thread
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 29 May 18 - 04:11 AM

Just the kind of facile   response to be expected.
The case rests M'Lud!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 18 - 04:04 AM

So Dave you do not think that abuse and insults show a lack of control?

What makes you say that? My post was only short so you may have missed it.

Plenty of things kill threads. Insults. Abuse. Idiots. 'Intemperate language' is not one of them.

I have emboldened the bit where where I said Insults, abuse and idiots kill threads. The very things that you mention. Whether it show lack of self control or not is completely irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 29 May 18 - 03:54 AM

So Dave you do not think that abuse and insults show a lack of control?
You perhaps think such tactics are premeditated? If such terms as racist and nazi are hurled about with gay abandon do you think such terms are carefully thought out before posting, or simply a thoughtless lashing out to provoke a response?

OED Intemperate Having or showing a lack of self-control; immoderate.
SYNONYMS

immoderate, excessive, undue, inordinate, unreasonable, unjustified, unwarranted, uncalled for

extreme, unrestrained, unrestricted, uncontrolled, unbridled, uncurbed

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 18 - 03:08 AM

Plenty of things kill threads. Insults. Abuse. Idiots. 'Intemperate language' is not one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 29 May 18 - 02:26 AM

"Whatever happens, the DUP shitbags are doomed."
Intemperate language kills threads, jimmie holds the only exemption.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 May 18 - 12:46 AM

DUP shitbags...?

name calling won't help. lot of people vote for this party.

nonetheless if they want to be part of the UK, they should abide by the laws that the rest of us observe.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 18 - 08:58 PM

This has nothing to do with May needing "to impose her will." Last time I heard she was the prime minister of a territory that fully includes Northern Ireland. For the last sixteen months there has been no devolved administration in the Six Counties. Yet that part of our nation still has to be administered. Westminster parliament has every right to legislate to change the law in NI. I'd go a lot further than that and say that May has a DUTY to the women of NI to give them the same human rights as women elsewhere in the EU. She can't escape this. Ireland has utterly turned the tide, and she has to act despite the DUP, and if that leads to an election, then that's how it should be. Whatever happens, the DUP shitbags are doomed.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 May 18 - 06:16 PM

You say Keith that May has no power to impose her will.

legally I would doubt that. She's the boss of the Uk. she could enact the necessary acts to do what she bloody likes.

whether she should is another matter.

Nevertheless I would imagine that is the case and if NI don't like it. They know where the out door is.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Thompson
Date: 28 May 18 - 01:26 PM

The DUP asked for a No vote in the Republic, a country they don't acknowledge. They're more right-wing than the most right-wing of arch-Catholics, and that's saying a lot. Their main cultural outlet is building gigantic bonfires made of tyres and pallets on which to burn Irish flags and effigies of Irish people, and having parties around them singing a mix of deliberately offensive songs and hymns, and playing fifes and drums and the gigantic Lambeg drums while the flames of their witch-bonfires rise into the night. They're wonderfully wacky, and the most Irish thing on the island.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Iains
Date: 28 May 18 - 10:08 AM

Every Spern is Sacred

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 18 - 08:32 AM

Without the support of the DUP the Tories don't have a majority in Westminster. That isn't affected by whether Theresa May, Boris Johnson, or Jeremy Rees-Mogg is Head of the Tory Party.

If Tory rebels got together and forced her hand, or forced her out, there'd be no way to avoid a General Election.

The legal situation in Norther Ireland over abortion is significantly different from in the Republic. Before the referendum no Irish government could legalise abortion even if it wanted to, because of the Constitution. Now we can expect it to legislate to change the law. However a Northern Ireland government can already do what it wants to change the law, without any need for a referendum - but of course, there is no Northern Irish government to decide one way or another.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 18 - 08:28 AM

"So the DUP can permanently block abortion reform as long as they refuse to form an administration?"
They are already doing so
Their politicians are now appearing on television saying there will be no change in the abortion laws
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish referendum
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 18 - 08:13 AM

Last time I heard, Northern Ireland was part of the United Kingdom. I don't moan (much) when Westminster imposes its will on Cornwall. De facto, NI is being run by the Westminster government. "Imposing our will" on them don't come into it. Brexiteers are imposing their will on me, all 38%. That's how running countries works and I have to put up with it. We have a situation here in which the DUP can prevent abortion law reform by not forming an administration. That is simply wrong. Life has to go on. Perhaps if we "impose our will" a little by introducing perfectly justified human rights reforms, minds will be concentrated and the administration will be restored. Until that happens we have "every right." You can't devolve things to a government that doesn't exist. Fannying around muttering "it's a devolved issue" simply perpetuates human rights abuses and you shouldn't be defending that.