BS: Refugee Clampdown

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 10:03 AM

Jim,
No matter what you think of him, Tony Blair was voted in by the supporters of the Labour Party.
Please don't blame us for making him Prime Minister, and all that that entails.
Even having seen him as Prime Minister the Labour Party voted him in twice more.

He is totally yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 09:48 AM

Your persistent avoidance of the points being made is pathetic blustering and bullying
Your input here is devoid of a shred of humanity - you make victims perpetrators and you attempt to undermine researched information by denigrating organisations that stand between us and ignorance
If you have any real information present it - any moron can just deny facts that don't suit their twisted, inhuman outlook on life
The facts man, the facts, as Jowe Friday used to say - your denials are not convincing and they are too inevitable to be entertaining
Blair was an untried war criminal and a crypto-Tory - one of yours, so he is quite likely not to be totally indifferent to the fate of impoverished people in cages or in overcrowded boats circling countries who refuse them access - just like you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 09:03 AM

Repent ! repent!
"The Bible tells us there is more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous people who have no need to repent.

So perhaps we should rejoice that Tony Blair and Nick Clegg, who in the past resisted all checks on EU immigration into this country, have finally come around to the idea that there should be some.

As deputy prime minister and leader of the Lib Dems in 2014, Clegg said the following: ‘I want to be unequivocal — freedom of movement between EU member states is a good thing. It’s a cornerstone of European integration.’

Yet the same Nick Clegg performed a U-turn this month, without telling us that was what he was doing. He wrote in the Financial Times: ‘The belief that freedom of movement is an untouchable principle cannot go unchallenged.’"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5894441/STEPHEN-GLOVER-Blair-Clegg-seen-light-migration-shame-years-late.html

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jun 18 - 06:01 AM

all Trump has done is to stop supporting the opponents of Assad and left him and Putin to get on with the massacring

Jim your simplistic way of looking at world events would be regarded as a disgrace in a kindergarten.
What Trump says, and what the CIA and Pentagon do, are totally unconnected events I would suggest.
The solution to all the deaths and migrations is very straightforward. All the US has to do is stop interfering in other countries. For the vast majority of indigenous people life was infinitely better under gaddaffi and Sadam Hussein, and Syria was a peaceful backwater.

Curious that a convoy of white helmets are travelling to Idlib carrying munitions for bombmaking and at the same time the UK has insisted the OPCW be given the authority to name names. False flag/poison gas event coming up?
You seem to have a childlike trust in the entire content presented in media you trust. Time you became a little more discriminating.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 02:57 PM

If you read your article through to the end, all Trump has done is to stop supporting the opponents of Assad and left him and Putin to get on with the massacring
Back to square one
You seem to be quoting selectively and not linking your information deliberately to give the impression that its all the fault of those damned "liberals"
Nothing new there
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 02:50 PM

"This program was established in the mid-1990s and expanded in the 2000s."
Not sure where you are going with this Iains - you seem to be making my point for me.
According to WIKI the US has been up to its elbows in dirty tricks and coups since just after WW2

"CIA activities in Syria since the agency's inception in 1947 have included coup attempts and assassination plots, and in more recent years, extraordinary renditions, a paramilitary strike, and funding and military training of forces opposed to the current government."

Trump with Britain as his poodle is just the latest and by far the worst affront to human rights and democracy
My point exactly
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 01:18 PM

The dubious manoeuverings of the west and especially the CIA put most dictators in power. It can surely come as no surprise that the entire western world flogs them copious amounts of weaponry.
Even that den of iniquity Syria was a CIA ally not too long ago. If wikileaks can be believed The CIA used Syria as an illicit base of operations to torture ghost detainees, as part of a program known as extraordinary rendition. This program was established in the mid-1990s and expanded in the 2000s.

One target of this program, Syrian-born Canadian Maher Arar, was detained in New York and sent to Syria, where he was interrogated and tortured. Arar, a telecommunications engineer who has been a Canadian citizen since 1991, was asked to confess his connections to al-Qaeda and to terrorist training camps in Afghanistan. Arar was held for more than a year; after his release, he sued the U.S. government.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 12:47 PM

"Hmmm! Scratches head in total bafflement."
Why am I not surprised
Seems a permanent state with some people
Put it another way, if Amnesty is corrupt for accepting money for defending women's human rights - where does that leave a political who has recently bunged another political party with terrorist connections £3 billion of the British taxpayers money in order to stay in office?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 12:41 PM

Amnesty is openly disputing their right to accept money from the Irish Government for the referendum
"When Peter pays the Piper I suspect he also chooses the tune."
At no time has anybody anywhere suggested that they have used the money corruptly - perhaps, rather than alluding to it, you might show us where the have
If not, your dismissal of Amnesty as a reliable source of information remains an attempt to smear a respectable, reliable organisation with all the humanist tendencies your people lack
Like your responding to Britain's arms sales - I won't hold my breath
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 12:41 PM

Hmmm! Scratches head in total bafflement.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 12:21 PM

What have they infringes out of those?
Mybe you don't believe pregnancy termination is a Human Right
THEY DO
As coy as ever about selling arms to dictators, I see !!
Your make Keith seems to have done a runner on this one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 12:12 PM

I lost half my last post. Apologies.

Mission Statement Amnesty
Monitoring abuses of human rights;
Obtaining redress for the victims of human rights abuse;
Relieving need among the victims of human rights abuse (and in particular medical, rehabilitational or
financial assistance);
Research into human rights issues;
Providing technical advice to government and others on human rights matters;
Contributing to the sound administration of human rights law;
Commenting on proposed human rights legislation;
Raising awareness of human rights issues;
Promoting public support for human rights;
Promoting respect for human rights among individuals and corporations;
International advocacy of human rights;
Eliminating infringements of human rights, including without limitation procuring the abolition of torture, extrajudicial execution and disappearance.

When Peter pays the Piper I suspect he also chooses the tune.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 12:06 PM

"I have no idea what you are implying about Amnesty's honesty"
A fundamental tenet they claim is to not receive government funding. If this is so, was the £842000 in the link not from government, even though clearly shown in the pdf provided? Pennies from Heaven perhaps!


Like many charities amnesty also works to an agenda and sometimes ideology takes the place of "best practise". Most of what they do is admirable but they also have their less admirable traits.
Rather like the National Trust and RSPCA-mission creep by a minority is turning them into zealots.

Amnesty weasel their way around funding by the following:
No funds are sought or accepted from governments for investigating and campaigning against human rights abuses.

I am afraid they also cannot be entirely trusted.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 11:27 AM

""coo de grass""
With an accent like that, don't you mean Scotland Kenny?

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 10:50 AM

Jim
In the wild of County Clare I would have thought you would have had a "coo de grass" ?

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 10:20 AM

and you wonder why I treat you like a fool!"
And you wonder why you have the reputation of an evasive bully that you do

You still haven't answered my question

Insult away - it tells us what we need to know (even if we already know it)

I have no idea what you are implying about Amnesty's honesty

The only criticism I can find is from countries with a dodgy human rights record like Isreal

It's a bit ludicrous claing "Disparage the source and deny the content" and dong exactly that
You appear not to be into joined up thinking

"Pandoras Box"
Nah- not into mythological sex!
Enjoying every relaxing minute of it Kenny - I wish cutting the grass and painting the window-frames was as easy as this
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 09:55 AM

"I suppose it's a waste of my time asking you how you feel about Britain selling weapons to terrorist states and mass murderers (especially as you support many of our customers in their political aims"

and you wonder why I treat you like a fool!
You have been pointed to the possible motivation of the source Iains - you choose to ignore tha.

I could not care motivates an author, I am only interested in the data presented. I suggest you adopt the same approach. It would save you much of your mindless frothing. As far as I am aware the court decision on the Sorus donation has yet to be decided. Does Sorus donate anything without a political motive?

Amnesty UK accepted a grant of £842,000 (being part of a larger four year award) from the Department for International Development (DFID) This is just one example from the source you disparage. Do you deny it?
I will even make it easy for you and give the audited source.
https://www.amnesty.org/download/documents/32000/fin400072011en.pdf      page 19

Not so squeaky clean and innocent after all. I wonder what strings come attached?


Maybe after your 10 reincarnation you might realise your view of the world is simplistic twaddle, and black merges with white into shades of grey. You are hardly going to get these facts plastered all over the guardian now are you? Would you like me to illustrate a few other points made in those articles that you are so convinced must be fake?

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 09:24 AM

"Disparage the source and deny the content. "
You have been pointed to the possible motivation of the source Iains - you choose to ignore that
It is you who is disparaging sourcs, in this case, of an internationally admired and supported Human Rights organisation
Without them, we wold be at the mercy of ruthless politicians, avaricious businesses (and the Tommy Robinsons of this world
None of your links in any way deal with the subject in hand - rather they are an exercise in smear tactics

The Soros affair is interesting as it questions whether the 8th amendment referendum was a matter of politics or human rights
The fundamentalists (who were soundly trounced), claimed it to be political and so could not receive financial support from Amnesty
What isn't mentioned is that the same fundamentalists were receiving money and actual help from Trumpites and American fundamentalists politicians
It was a cross-party, non political campaign where people voted according to their conscience not their party preferences
Ti its credit, Amnesty stuck to its guns
No donor to a charity has the right to call the shots on what their money is spent on

I suppose it's a waste of my time asking you how you feel about Britain selling weapons to terrorist states and mass murderers (especially as you support many of our customers in their political aims
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 08:51 AM

Disparage the source and deny the content. Have you bothered to read the content?
Iains, the question is, why do you read it if it's propaganda and junk? That kills your case right there.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 08:46 AM

And Sorus getting amnesty into trouble again! Amnesty in defiance of decision to return donation by the Standards in Public Office body.


http://www.thejournal.ie/amnesty-international-george-soros-case-3848523-Feb2018/

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 08:28 AM

Jim
Maybe you should have named the thread "Refugee Clampdown / Pandoras Box"

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 08:24 AM

I see you are using your usual puerile tricks again, shared by others on this forum. Disparage the source and deny the content. Have you bothered to read the content? you and jack make a fine pair, you should go on the road as a latter day laurel and hardy. Most of what you post is equally comical.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 08:16 AM

If it does not sell arms indiscriminately it is deliberately selling them to terrorist states who are using them to slaughter civilians - is that what you are saying?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-arms-deals-sales-countries-human-rights-abusers-bahrain-saudi-arabia-israel-caat-bae-systems-a7853416.html
(can't blue clickie)

Can you please address your inanities at someone else Keith - you are as tiresome as you ever were
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 08:04 AM

Jim,
Britain's indiscriminate sales of arms

Britain does not sell arms indiscriminately. It has the tightest restrictions of any nation.
All the world's ills can not be blamed on us.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 07:55 AM

Iiains

NGO Monitor (Non-governmental Organization Monitor) is a non-governmental organization based in Jerusalem, which analyzes and reports on the output of the international NGO community from a pro-Israel perspective.[1] It has been characterized as being pro-Israel[4][5] and as right-wing.[6] NGO Monitor says in its mission statement that it was founded "to promote accountability, and advance a vigorous discussion on the reports and activities of humanitarian NGOs in the framework of the Arab–Israeli conflict.""

Donipress is a Ukrainian propaganda publication aimesd at “exposing fake news”
Hardly people you would discuss bias with

Attempting to denigrate the findings of w world-wide respected Human Rights organisation is somewhat ludicrous#
Are you 'avin a larf!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 07:38 AM

Amnesty again!
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/political-donations-amnesty-s-defiance-1.3328924

Oh whar a twisted web we weave.......


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/george-soros-s-amnesty-donation-was-not-for-political-purposes-1.3335146

http://dnipress.com/en/posts/who-is-behind-amnesty-international/

No smoke without fire, I say!

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 07:31 AM

So you deny In its Statute, Amnesty International fosters an image that “impartiality and independence” are core tenets of its agenda. Amnesty presents itself as unbiased, and independent of governments and their interests, and its statements are widely accepted because the media and diplomats consider the NGO as upholding the universal principles of human rights.

This image, however, is misleading. Contrary to what the NGO implies on its website and in other PR materials, Amnesty International and its local branches do in fact accept government funding.

Or do you deny the content below?
https://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/176/31407.html

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 06:59 AM

NGO Monitor is an Israeli state propaganda institution. Zero credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 06:45 AM

The last link mentioned omits to add that it was a claim by amnesty.
Another organisation like the white helmets that is not all it claims to be.
https://www.ngo-monitor.org/reports/breaking_its_own_rules_amnesty_s_gov_t_funding_and_researcher_bias/

All is not what it seems when you peer down the rabbit hole.
Al quaeda the bastard child of the CIA is still causing havoc and presently recruiting ex ISIS members.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/jan/17/yemen.islam
It would seem the CIA and Pentagon sometimes work together, other times in opposition, but whatever way they play the end result is more killing, more refugees and more towns and cities bombed back into the stone age.(That was one of the few pentagon promises made that cannot be faulted)


http://www.theweek.co.uk/90460/where-does-islamic-state-get-its-weapons


and a very intriguing article, esp. at the end.
https://www.wired.com/story/terror-industrial-complex-isis-munitions-supply-chain/

The entire story is by no means as simple as it is made out to be.
Everyone involved is a chameleon.

Quoting any one source and relying upon it's content implicitly can lead down blind allyways and lead to totally wrong conclusions.
Getting the big picture is a challenge, but without having a vague understanding of the various ins and outs, comment becomes meaningless if it is in terms of absolutes. The beast does not exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 06:35 AM

Kenny - No. Some people do it occasionally. Others make it an art form :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 06:34 AM

DTG " It is a commitment to give up trying to discus things reasonably with people who are just here to argue, fight, and twist peoples words."

I take it you are joking   "Coals to Newcastle "?

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 06:32 AM

"If you have a drink problem share it with us "
I have the same "drink" problem as does everybody in rural Ireland - having to walk the miles home because of the drinking laws
I think that as that stands, most of us are beyond help with that one

As far as Keith's asinine denials and claims of an expelled member are concerned - I would appreciate a response to both the morality and the effect Britain's indiscriminate sales of arms is having on the refugee crisis
Surely I am mistaken in my growing impression that nobody cares?
Nah - couldn't be!!!]
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 06:05 AM

It's not a drink problem, Kenny, as I am sure Jim will tell you. It is a commitment to give up trying to discus things reasonably with people who are just here to argue, fight, and twist peoples words.

Apologies to Jim if I gave the wrong impression.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 05:53 AM

I do give info but it is cherrypicked and taken out of context mostly by you to introduce your favourite topics as has happened in this thread
If you have a drink problem share it with us …. "a problem shared is a problem halved" is the appropriate adage.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 05:45 AM

"Keith's "stupid denials" can all be substantiated.

Teribus provided the hard evidence and his posts are easily found.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 04:58 AM

"Jim, you are falling for it again. Get back on the wagon"
Not really Dave
AS Keith stupid denial of reported facts (even from the Tory Telegraph) has just amply demonstrated - it was a perfect opportunity to underline that the British establishment would have to round up every Muslim in Britain and deport them before they uttered a word of criticism against them and, even then, it would probably be that they are not doing it fast enough :-)
Sycophants all

"I was convinced was the phases of the moon "
Probably explains why you never reply with information of your own Kenny!

BRITISH ARMS IN THE HANDS OF ISIS

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 04:38 AM

Dave
I didn't know Jim was "on the Wagon" but your comment explains what I was convinced was the phases of the moon …. thanks for the info

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 04:20 AM

Jim, you are falling for it again. Get back on the wagon! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 18 - 04:14 AM

You have no idea what kind of ammunition was sold - neither do I

We do not make ammunition for Russian weapons.

We sold legal chemicals used to make toothpaste and it was all accounted for.

As you say, "We've been through this interminably."

Drop your sill and ancient false claims and move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 02:38 PM

"No, because we do not supply the ammunition used by their Russian weapons."
We've been through this interminably
You have no idea what kind of ammunition was sold - neither do I
Your original claim was "all you could come up with is a few sniper rifles" - you denied any ammunition was sold until I produced a government record of the shipment
No details - just a record that sniper ammunition was sold

I seem to remember that you argued it was ok to sell him riot control equipment (I'll dig it out if you like)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/10303424/Britain-issued-five-further-chemical-export-licences-to-Syria.html
(won't blue clickie)

NERVE GAS

SOLE SUPPLIER OF THREE CHEMICALS

It really is time you and yours stopped appeasing out appalling record of arms sales to monsters like Assad and the Saudis
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 01:27 PM

Jim,
, it is possible that some of them may have trained using ammunition sold to him by Britain

No, because we do not supply the ammunition used by their Russian weapons.

Britan was internationally criticised for selling chemicals capable of being used in the manufacture of weapons

I do not remember that Jim. What international criticism?

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 12:45 PM

Incidentally
I think you sould read your "even more interesting article from Russia Today" carefully - everybody should
It lambasts all countries, particularly Europe, for doing the wrong things or nothing to ease the refugee problem
It lambasts the populist politics that have opposed supporting the refugees and scapegoated immigrants - the populism that elected the Trump administration and brought about the Brexit vote - both of which you have expressed support for.

Trump is one of the main players in the refugee crisis - America's inhuman treatment of refugees started this argument and Trump's wall is likely to add to that particular obscenity
Brexit might well create a mini-crisis for Britain if the position of the 1.2 million Brits now living and working in Europe is undermined by a 'no deal'
It was estimated in 2015 that 30,000 of those were drawing unemployment benefit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 12:25 PM

"None of that changes in any way our part in the present situation Iains
For instance, as you say, the drought in Syria took place between 2006 and 2011.
The country was impoverished anyway and repression by its regime had been reported fully by Amnesty
At the end of the drought the Syrian People had had enough and began to demand changes - they became part of The Arab Spring protests.
The demonstrations were brutally repressed by Assad using riot control equipment, armoured cars, tear gas all sold to him by Britain
When his snipers randomly started taking out civilians on the streets of Homs, it is possible that some of them may have trained using ammunition sold to him by Britain
Britan was internationally criticised for selling chemicals capable of being used in the manufacture of weapons   
THIS IS A TIMELINE of Syria's use of chemical weapons from the Arms Control Council

You can dodge and dive and point fingers at anybody you choose, but Britain and the U.S. are up to their bloody elbows in the bloodbath that is Syria

Inaction on the part of the leaders of the wealthy nations gave rise to Isis
WE owe the world big time to help sort it out

And still you refuse to acknowlede the human toll that all this is taking
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 11:35 AM

The refugee/illegal immigrant/asylum seeker, and yes a minority of terrorists likely hidden among them are all a problem of the here and now. It bears no relationship to the events of 80 odd years ago the causes are more complex and the migrants fit no single pigeonhole.
It is more useful to look at the causes of the migration rather than put labels on those moving.
1)Regime change, civil war,persecution, genocide
2)Climate change. Semi desert areas such as the Sahel have always been vulnerable to slight shifts in climate. Plant growth is already challenged and has little resilience. Global warming, constant war, political instability, burgeoning population only leads to unhappy outcomes.
3)population growth
4)Western political meddling, raw material extraction.
5)Economic migrants this also includes millions from Eastern Europe moving entirely legally to the west in search of a better life.


You may like to separate terrorism from the refugee problem but as in many cases they originate from the same countries they are both intricately linked. We also have european jihadis further complicating and compounding the problem. The presence of potential terrorists among any group of immigrants inevitably requires higher levels of security to deal with them. You may not like the idea, or even refuse to accept the reality, but the alternatives are potentially far more damaging
To demonstrate this point let us consider Syria. It is fighting a war for it’s survival. The Syrian defence forces are fighting a rag tag and bobtail soup of insurgents, many aided and abetted illegally by western forces. This has resulted in 2016, from an estimated pre-war population of 22 million, the United Nations (UN) identified 13.5 million Syrians requiring humanitarian assistance, of which more than 6 million are internally displaced within Syria, and around 5 million are refugees outside of Syria.

Another illustration is that of France in the
sahel and the increasing presence of US bases in the region.

Neatly forgotten is that Syria was in the grip of reputedly the worst
drought in 900 years before the insurrection broke out The drought caused 75 percent of Syria's farms to fail and 85 percent of livestock to die between 2006 and 2011, according to the United Nations. The collapse in crop yields forced as many as 1.5 million Syrians to migrate to urban centers, like Homs and Damascus.
The drought had displaced Syrians long before the conflict began," said Francesco Femia, president of the Center for Climate Security. "And what is frightening is that analysts who study the region completely missed it."

As a total aside: In this way the Syrian civil war and the hundreds of thousands of displaced, who are seeking refuge in Turkey and Europe, could be seen as a foreshadowing of a much more alarming humanitarian situation should nation's fail to keep global temperature rise under control.
The Pentagon has long identified climate change as a "threat magnifier," a factor that can aggravate already existing political fault lines. And the G7 issued a report in June warning that climate change "will aggravate already fragile situations and may contribute to social upheaval and even violent conflict."
An interesting article in blacklisted news further illustrates the complexity of the situation
https://www.blacklistednews.com/article/66685/ben-rhodes-admits-obama-armed-jihadists-in-syria-in-bombshell.html
Of who did what to whom and an even more interesting article from Russia today illustrates the fallout in Europe
https://www.rt.com/op-ed/430820-eu-migration-crisis-merkel/

I am afraid one paragraph submissions on the subject of refugees cannot even begin to scratch the surface. It is complex in terms of origin, outcomes and potential solutions. Of course there are those will look at the source of the links and make no attempt to verify the content, content in their smug satisfaction that they already know the reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 11:33 AM

No "if" about it Nigel - the overwhelming conflicts that have caused the refugee crisis are traceable back to oil
That doesn't mean they are traceable back to UK.

Even if none of this were true, we would have a moral obligation to assist less fortunate countries - that was the Britain I was born to and lived in most of my life

Funny, I just said that, maybe you missed it because it doesn't fit in with your world-view:

For many of these immigrants we are not part of the cause.
That doesn't prevent us providing humanitarian aid, whether we are a part of the cause or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 11:14 AM

Kenny B
Not our "forefathers", by the way "It's all happening now" as one of McColl's lesser-known songs said.
JUST ONE SMALL EXAMPLE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 11:06 AM

"If you wish personally to accept the sins of our forefathers so be it "
None of us have any control over what our Government does on or behalf beyond not voting for them, and even then, there is no guarantee that the next lot will be any better
Britain has just sold 48 fighter planes to Saudi Arabia - it is inevitable that they will be used on the famine stricken people of Yemen
At present UNCR reports that there are 22.2 million people in need, 2014,026 internally displaced people 280,629 refugees and asylum seekers from war and famine
By propping up such regimes and selling them weapons makes us up to our uxters in their problems.
"That's that niggling little word 'if' again. A small word with a big meaning".
No "if" about it Nigel - the overwhelming conflicts that have caused the refugee crisis are traceable back to oil
You have the statistics and the maps - if you disagree with them, produce your own facts.

This goes for Iain's mythical claim about the role of our army
"Your way of life is built upon the sacrifice of the armed services."
Britain hasn't fought a defensive war since 1945
- all conflicts since have been about maintaining political and financial control abroad
We "owe out way of life" to the fact that for centuries we were able to plunder and enslave weaker and less developed countries for our own interests
That exploitation continues by proxy - now we fill our shops with goods produced in semi-feudal conditions

Even if none of this were true, we would have a moral obligation to assist less fortunate countries - that was the Britain I was born to and lived in most of my life
I have no religion, but Britain struts its stuff as a Christian country - is Christianity about turning away those in need?
I find so much of this unbelievably inhuman - if this is what Britain has become, I'm glad to be out of it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 10:01 AM

"It fails to mention - as have few here, the causes of refugeeism
If we are part of causing the problem then it is our responsibility to be part of its cure"

Kind of like the Arab countries that caused the refugee problem in the Middle East, eh.

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 09:35 AM

Jim you said
"It fails to mention - as have few here, the causes of refugeeism
If we are part of causing the problem then it is our responsibility to be part of its cure"


If you wish personally to accept the sins of our forefathers so be it …. but what are YOU doing about it in reparation, apart from repeating it to the small number who read Mudcat BS.?
I would refer you to my favorite artist GOYA for inspiration

Subject: RE: BS: Refugee Clampdown
From: Senoufou
Date: 26 Jun 18 - 09:31 AM

Goodness Jack, every word of that rings true! Nibbling away at our innate morality and compassion by trialling mini-abuses, and demonising a group to encourage us all to hate.
Is there any limit to this evil? Hitler would be so proud...