Brexit #2

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 12:10 PM

"'Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion"

Now who said that Iains? Its not difficult to look up, but it was no socialist, in fact it dates from well before there was even such a thing as socialism.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 12:12 PM

Well it wasn't shit-for-brains Guido...

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 01:16 PM

May and her cronies have been found guilty of breaching parliamentary privilege for refusing to reveal the full legal advice on Brexit
It has also been decided that MPs should have a vote on the details of Brexit thanks to an alliance between the opposition and the D.U.P.
I'm beginning to change my opinion of blood-sports - beats Est Enders any day
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 01:36 PM

I think the business over publishing the legal documents is more important than the documents, or even Brexit. It was about whether, after Parliament has passed a binding motion, the government can just say "Nah, we'll ignore that." At heart it was about whether authority rests in the Commons or the government, and Rees-Mogg argued on Newsnight last night that was constitionally important.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 03:44 PM

I think its become more obvious than ever that the blokes in charge will do what they want and all our arguing and bitterness has been for nothing.

No one we know, will decide what happens. Very probably someone we've never heard of decided what was going to happen, long before the referendum.

I can't believe I'm the only one who feels totally powerless.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 03:44 PM

some excellent news from guido, the man with a finger on the pulse!

https://order-order.com/2018/12/04/brexit-britain-fdi-soaring-manufacturing-booming/






















IHS

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 03:55 PM

Edmund Burke Quotes. Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to your opinion.

“The difference between a politician and a statesman is that a politician thinks about the next election while the statesman thinks about the next generation.”
? James Freeman Clarke

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 05:03 PM

Who to believe, Paul Staines, bankrupt, drink drives and general conspiracy theorist, or the Governor of the Bank of England. Hard one.

As for James Freeman Clarke, yes thats a good quote. And the next generation, the young and educated, they are the ones above all who will benefit from continued membership of the EU, the ones to whom the loss of Freedom of Movement is a drastic blow. So yes, the representatives need to think about the next generations.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 05:57 PM

That sounds like writing the guy a blank cheque to do what he likes.

After all, Hitler was thinking about 'future generations' when he brought in capital punishment for being disabled, racially impure, or thinking differently to him.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 06:43 PM

Could I politely request that references to Germany in the 1930's and 1940's are not included in this thread.

Please refer to my opening post.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 07:32 PM

It was interesting that Theresa May chose to absent herself from the House when the crucial vote today was declared, and that it was Angela Leadsom who announced to the members that the government would obey their instructions, and publish the full advice tomorrow.

Even more interesting was the legal opinion today indicating that the European Court of Justice is likely to rule that the UK government can just cancel its withdrawal from the EU if it chooses. A clear Parliamentary vote to reject May's deal, stated by the EU to be its last word, together with a firm decision that No Deal is totally unacceptable would logically mean that the only option in town should be to do precisely that.

If it were seen as essential to hold a referendum, the predicted ruling would simplify matters. It would remove from the table arguments about whether the EU might make demands on the UK in return for cancelling withdrawal.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 07:52 PM

I'm getting an increasing feeling that the whole thing will implode before we get another referendum. I don't think we're going anywhere.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 12:22 AM

I hope that you are right Steve, I really do.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 01:57 AM

Even off all implodes and we end up withdrawing Article 50, the Brexiteers will never accept any reason for it failing apart from May and co not really fighting for interests or being prepared to 'no deal'. So come the next election there would certainly be a UKIP or similar shouting "we were betrayed." There is no knowing how successful they would be, but it a definite risk that we end up with such a party in government.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 02:56 AM

Farage has left UKIP

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 03:15 AM

"Farage has left UKIP"
Perhaps he's going after Theresa May's job
He'll have to join the queue
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 04:07 AM

I think we ned to take that risk, DMcG, but we need to face them down. As Mosley was faced down and Powell was faced down. Appeasing them will not work, the more you give them the more they want, and if you keep throwing them scraps we will have nothing left.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 04:38 AM

I agree, David. To quote a song from the 60s I think "How can you fight if you don't recognise the warning?" The risk is there, it is hopefully not great, but whatever we n3ed to face it and deal with it.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 08:16 AM

It says it all about Guido that his web page includes so-called cures for baldness. For a decent speech about Brexit, try this

https://www.libdemvoice.org/devstatingly-powerful-speech-from-margaret-beckett-59345.html

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 08:17 AM

So....any good news about Brexit? Iains? Nigs? Anybody...??

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 08:22 AM

And here's another piece demolishing the Brexiteers' WTO fantasy

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/brexit-wto-terms-rules-theresa-may-deal-eu-world-trade-organisation-peter-lilley-a8668311.html

In any case, at the G20 last week concerns were expressed about global trade problems.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 08:26 AM

Becket was particularly good on Euratom and nuclear safety, deriding May's claims that we can do it all by ourselves by pointing out a) May seems to have found a money tree to pay the added costs, and b) there is a shortage of experts so that even the EU found problems hiring suitable people.

More reading material on the WTO myth

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/What-would-trading-on-WTO-terms-mean.pdf

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 08:29 AM

Guido is claiming there would not be a hard border with Ireland on the WTO basis. Here are the arguments that this is false.

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/What-would-trading-on-WTO-terms-mean.pdf

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 08:31 AM

The stupid thing has been that so many people who favoured Remain have accepted, and even echoed the stuff about how a second referendum would somehow be undemocratic. There is nothing undemocratic about giving people an opportunity to change their minds, or to confirm their wishes.

There is no way in which either Ireland or Denmark are less democratic countries than the U K - in fact there are good grounds for arguing that their political systems are considerably more democratic than those of the UK. To suggest that in giving their electorate a second chance in similar circumstances is deeply unjust, and absurd edgy so.

In addition a fresh vote would reflect the fact that more than two years after that first vote the additional number of people who have become entitled to vote is far higher than the narrow majority that separated the two sides in 2016 - people who have not had any chance to vote on this issue, which will affect their lives and opportunities profoundly.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 08:37 AM

Not at the moment. Even the Spanish are taking the piss and being encouraged by the EU vice president. News from guido of course!

https://order-order.com/2018/12/05/eu-vice-president-applauds-spanish-warships-illegal-anti-british-stunt/
All the more reason for brexit.

Who to believe, Paul Staines, bankrupt, drink drives and general conspiracy theorist, or the Governor of the Bank of England. Hard one.
Remainiacs may find it hard, but you constantly attack the man not the message. This is not a very intelligent technique to adopt. Neither is offering a comparison between Carney and the righteous Guido.
One man offers hopelessly incorrect forecasts with a definite political bias, The other is nowt but a hack that makes no secret of his affiliations.
He presents factual arguments backed up by multiple alternative media .There is a distinct lack of logic to hold one up as an example to us all(Whose forecasts are demonstrably false) and on the other hand denigrate a man that presents facts (that are easily verified)
It does get a little tiresome pointing this out on here at regular intervals. Remainiacs must have the perspicacity and attention span of a gnat, besides being unable to appreciate that a comparison between forecasts and facts simply cannot be made. Facts are facts, forecasts largely fiction, no matter how massaged.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 08:46 AM

Facts are facts indeed. And only giving the facts from one side of an argument is known as biassed reporting. Anyone who cannot appreciate that is beyond redemption.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 09:04 AM

I've just heard a conversation between two old ladies in a Truro bus shelter.

"This Brexit...What's the point of us voting...They don't take no notice of us anyway...They just do what they want...I thought this was supposed to be a democracy...These MPs don't even pay income tax...and they don't have to use the NHS like us...and I don't like Gemany telling us what to do either...They're very dodgy, the Germans..."

Meet the people who are taking us out of the EU!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 09:05 AM

A solicitor, having examined the full text of the legal advice in full, suggests that there are only two alternatives - a new referendum or a NO DEAL BREXIT

"the man not the message."
The man is a politically devious thug committed to extremist right wing politics
His message in this case, is that the British manufacturing economy has risen recently
As it has dwindled to virtually nothing over the last few decades, it is like saying the dying man is not looking too bad this morning
If you care to check what the Economist says about the rise, it points out that it is more to do with what is happening elsewhere than being a significant rise in Britain's fortunes - a short-term blip
This is typical of your "Guru's" manipulating figures rather than reporting the facts in full
It is totally mindless to only have one source of information that has proved flawed and dishonest over and over again
Christ - even Teribus had the nouse to try to sell his bullshit
This is just laziness
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 09:24 AM

On constitutional Parliament v The Government who rules, it is The Crown in Parliament which is why the Queen calls somebody to form 'Her Majesty's Government'.

It's all well and good to discuss British manufacturing industry but we hardly have any such thing. People seem to imagine we are still in the 20th century. Jim is right.

Given the information available about Staines via Wikipedia, I think one would be unintelligent if one took anything he wrote or published at face value. Clearly, the character of the messenger is sometimes important in evaluating whether the 'message' he delivers will be fair and accurate. I note that Staines has apparently been advising the Russian embassy on how to use social media.


I didn't know that he was an Irish citizen.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 10:04 AM

Anyone else noticed that there's only one person on here who appears to set any store whatsoever by anything that 'Seaman' Staines, the Drink-Driving Criminal, has to say?

The poor sap reminds me of the proud mum watching the cub-scouts marching on St. George's day. As her son's troop passes by, she turns to her friend, beams with glowing pride, and says, "Look, they're all out of step except my little Tommy!".

QED.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 10:13 AM

Talking of facts, lovely short film here by Stephen Fry. Well worth a look.

Brexit. Facts versus Fears

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 10:17 AM

If you all continue to attack guido the man, it merely demonstrates the paucity of your counter arguments.

A fact is something that is consistent with objective reality or that can be proven with evidence. Therefore there cannot be an argument over them, unless you wish to question reality. (Something remainiacs constantly do with referendum results)

"The man is a politically devious thug committed to extremist right wing politics
His message in this case, is that the British manufacturing economy has risen recently
As it has dwindled to virtually nothing over the last few decades, it is like saying the dying man is not looking too bad this morning
If you care to check what the Economist says about the rise, it points out that it is more to do with what is happening elsewhere than being a significant rise in Britain's fortunes - a short-term blip"

OH DEAR! Nurse! Nurse! The patient lives in a timewarp and repeats the same pack of lies every couple of weeks, despite being offered constant evidence rebutting his mindless mantra.

The decline in manufacturing is shared throughout the OECD. Manufacturing employment has declined steadily in most OECD countries. since the 1970s, in particular in Germany, Italy and the United Kingdom. As the birth place of Industrialisation was in the UK the percentage employed in manufacturing from say a benchmark year of 1890, was historically high.

Here are some remainiac inconvenient truths below. No doubt some will dispute the FACTS

You will have to construct your own link:
The Changing Nature of Manufacturing in OECD Economies - OECD.org
www.oecd.org/sti/sci-tech/37607831.pdf

by D Pilat - ?2006 - ?Cited by 142 - ?Related articles

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 10:39 AM

It is a fact that Staines has four alcohol related convictions.
It is a fact that Staines declared himself bankrupt after failing as a financial broker and trader.
It is a fact that Staines is a right wing blogger.

These facts are proven and indisputable.

His blogs may contain factual information but the above facts prove him untrustworthy, irresponsible and biased toward the right wing of politics. His blogs tell only one side of the story so it is little wonder that his message is, quite rightly, discounted by those who want to more than propaganda.

Marching to a different drum can be a good thing but dancing a quickstep to a slow waltz tune does little to endear anyone to the strictly panel...

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 10:44 AM

That's far too deep for him, Dave - it'll go straight over his head.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 10:56 AM

I'll give anyone the benefit of the doubt, BWM. What they do with that benefit is up to them :-)

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 11:15 AM

More sense from guido concerning the clown at the Bank of England!

https://order-order.com/2018/11/29/economist-won-nobel-prize-trade-theory-sceptical-carneys-forecasts/

WARNING!!! contains big words and complex facts. The remainiacs may require remedial classes in order to comprehend the content.
But of course they will dismiss the man and hence the message. Attempting rational discussion with them is a waste of time.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 11:25 AM

"Look, they're all out of step except my little Tommy!".

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 11:41 AM

You may have noticed gentlemen that you are being goaded, Iains no more believes the sound bites that guido gives out than you do.

He does believe however he has found a good way to get you rattled, which is why he keeps referring to guido.

However yet again he has shot himself in the foot. Even Paul Krugman in the article Iains cites states:

"Again, I’m anti-Brexit, AND HAVE NO DOUBT THAT IT WILL MAKE BRITAIN POORER*. And the BoE could be right about the magnitude. But they’ve really gone pretty far out on a limb here.

And if anyone does believe that Mark Carney is a clown he is an even bigger fool than I already take him for.

* My capitals

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: KarenH
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 11:45 AM

Some random gibberish from Guido's site: let's all enjoy it

Having to follow EU regulations to sell goods to China, Malaysia, Kuwait and New Zealand is a perfect example of a restrictive practice. These countries don't recognise EU standards but the EU forces our manufacturers to follow them. In some industries such as digital, microbiology, AI, spacetech, fintech and others, the EU has close to zero competence yet we have to follow their rules.


More of this laugh out loud stuff please, Ians. 'Close to zero competence' in the EU, which of course, includes us ....

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 11:55 AM

"OH DEAR! Nurse! Nurse! The patient lives in a timewarp and repeats the same pack of lies every couple of weeks, "
Every time you behave like this you confirm your idiocy and your lack of understanding
Your dependency on Staines is akin to alcoholism
Respond to the points made or make some of your own - even starlings can mimic car alarms
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 12:02 PM

Guido has produces a lot of articles .Which one are you referring to?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 12:26 PM

"Guido has produces a lot of articles .Which one are you referring to?"
He has produced nothing of note
If he had anything to say worth saying you wouldn't have to rely on him - everybody would be saying it
You have the economists analysis of the present rise - your silence speaks volumes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Mossback
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 12:38 PM

That's Guido Sarducci, yes?

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 01:17 PM

Guido produces a platform to display others conclusions. Very little of what he displays is his own work. That is why I try to give links. Obviously a wasted effort for all the impact it has.

He has produced nothing of note
If he had anything to say worth saying you wouldn't have to rely on him - everybody would be saying it

What a comical lad!
If he produced nothing of note why do the pack jump on his every utterance? Do we assume your demented responses are caused by nothing?
He must say something that upsets you, or are you too lacking in integrity to admit it? Like most of your arguments, it is facile.

Answers on a postcard please.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 01:21 PM

Who's interested in what that bloke sticks on his website anyway? Shouldn’t the old adage "don't feed the trolls" apply in this case. Trolling by proxy.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 01:28 PM

But it's such good fun!

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 01:38 PM

I did not realise presenting a counter argument is trolling. How quaint!
It must be a definition unique to mudcat.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 01:40 PM

From BBC live:
Jim Pickard(@PickardJE)

Mogg just told ERG meeting that (having met Nigel Dodds earlier today) his understanding is DUP will only vote against government in a no-confidence vote IF the withdrawal agreement gets Commons approval next week - not if it’s rejected

======
Let me get this straight. The DUP are confident in May if she fails to achieve what she set out to do. On the other hand, if she succeeds they will not be confident in her.

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 01:42 PM

"What a comical lad! "
What a reticent ladf when it comes to replying
Any moron can insult, as you regularly prove - it takes intelligence and imagination to respond intelligently and imaginatively
Staines is a sordid, muckraking blogger who came to public notice with a classic piece of gutter-wading homophobia - he has never risen above that scabloid level
You have had the Economist's response to /your/Staines's latest offering on the economy - instead of responding to it you opt for childish insulting
If you can't respond to it, why not just say so?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit #2
From: Iains
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 03:13 PM

You have had the Economist's response to /your/Staines's latest offering on the economy

OH DEAR! I even supplied the link for Guidos article, and the other was referenced in the text.
Now pay attention!


https://ihsmarkit.com/research-analysis/index.html


https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/bulletins/foreigndirectinvestmentinvolvingukcompanies/2017

Both organisations better funded and far better informed than the hacks at the economist.

You are not very good at research are you? You stumble into the same holes over and over and over. You'd think it might knock a bit of sense into you or is your brain permanently addled by the impacts?