BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion

Subject: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 11:36 AM

This is a very stupid catholic decision, because ladies will simply go to either Uruguay or Chile where they can get an abortion!

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 11:49 AM

Thousands of women have died in Argentina because of unsafe abortions. Thank you, Pope Francis, for your illegitimate interventions in the debate. Thank you, Catholic priests who campaigned for this rotten decision from the pulpit. Thanks to you, thousands more women will die.

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Thompson
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 11:59 AM

3,000 women have died from illegal abortions in Argentina since 1983.

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 12:03 PM

THe ludicrous position in Ireland is that despite the North's refusal to consider abortion, The Republic has thrown open its facilities to Northern women
Despite Bozo's 'Catholic' poke it's the Prods who are the dinosaurs here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Thompson
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 04:29 PM

The Republic of Ireland has thrown open our facilities to Northern Ireland women who need abortion… and are not in a hurry. There's a waiting list of a million for various treatments including children with scoliosis and elderly people needing joint replacements.

I love my country, but in the three essentials of life, education, health and housing, we're failing badly.

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: rich-joy
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 09:28 PM

As I understand the situation,
Down Under, in the southern-most island state of Tasmania, access to abortion since December has only been gained by travelling “overseas” to Melbourne in the mainland state of Victoria, after the recently available Hobart govt clinic was closed down.   (However, it now seems that the situation is still an “on again off again” one.)   Mind you, it was only in 2014 that the legislation moved it from the Criminal Act (women and doctors facing prison terms) to a Health Act!

Yes indeed, “This Is Aust-ral-ia”!!!

The LP “Beat Your Breasts” by Tasmania’s Ovarian Sisters can be heard on YouTube – 13 tracks with folk-based music - and still worth a listen!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otJ-SUmWCdI


“ …… Feminist and political band The Ovarian Sisters started out in 1977 in Tasmania as a large amorphous group. They sang songs by Malvina Reynolds and Pete Seeger or took old tunes and wrote lyrics to them. In 1979 the band was trimmed to six members and they began to write their own material.

Local citizens of Hobart found their music obscene as they sang about wife bashing, abortion, The Miss Tasmania Quest and the Prime Minister of the day. They were eventually banned by the local newspaper. They toured extensively and played at most university campuses in Melbourne and Sydney.

Members : Sue Edmonds (vocals, banjo, guitar, drums, mouth organ), Mary Azdajic (violin), Susie Tyson (bass, guitar, mandolin, tambourine), Tina Bain (vocals, mandolin), Lian Tanner (vocals, guitar)
Penny Sara (vocals, washboard) ….. ”

http://historyofaussiemusic.blogspot.com/2016/10/the-ovarian-sisters.html

Cheers, R-J

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Aug 18 - 10:21 PM

Now, I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the most extreme opposition to abortion comes from lay people within churches, not from the leadership of churches. While church leaders may question the morality of abortion, it's the lay extremists in churches that take an absolutist position - to the point of bombing clinics and shooting doctors. Church leaders have a higher level of education, and generally don't take absolutist positions.

I certainly wouldn't expect Pope Francis to take an absolutist position, and I'm be interested to know what prompted Steve Shaw to say, "Thank you, Pope Francis, for your illegitimate interventions in the debate." To my mind, Pope Francis has been very moderate on the issue, and does his best to calm the extremists down. I expect Mr. Shaw won't accept anything less than a rah-rah pro-abortion stance from the Pope. Does Francis have no right to express his opinion in the country of his birth?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 04:56 AM

Jim, "prods" is a term of sectarian abuse.
Please try to keep your mad sectarian divide off this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 06:38 AM

"Now, I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the most extreme opposition to abortion comes from lay people within churches, not from the leadership of churches. "
You most certainly are Joe
The Bishops in Irelland have been organisation to oppose the decision of the referendum here and they have been said to be recruiting help from Trumpites on your side of the water
There is a move for Catholic run hospitals to refuse to carry out terminationions which will put them on the wrong side of the law when it is passed

"Jim, "prods" is a term of sectarian abuse."
No it isn't Keith it's in wide use both sides of the divide
You are the last to be preaching against sectarianism with your track record
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 07:17 AM

The Pope is a head of state. He actively intervened to persuade the senators to reject the bill. That is indefensible interference in the affairs of a foreign state by a head of state. Now where have we heard of and disapproved of that before? The Catholic clergy were extremely active in calling for opposition to the bill from the pulpit. That is a gross misuse of the platform they have been afforded. Now, Joe, some of us utterly reject the notion that abortion should be treated as a religious issue. It's a very good bet that religious intervention in Argentina played a massive if not decisive part in causing the bill to fail. You can't deflect away from that rather obstinate fact. No-one in Argentina voted for the Pope or any of their priests. Wrong, wrong, wrong, and the Catholic Church is now likely to have the blood of thousands more young women on its hands. If I were still a Catholic (I suppose I'm still counted as one in the stats), this disgraceful episode alone would have me leaving the Church and I wouldn't be going quietly.

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 09:46 AM

If I were ever a catholic, no way would I be one now. Queer catholic priests get away with murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Thompson
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 11:49 AM

Pope Francis compared abortion to Nazi eugenics only "with white gloves" in June, in the run-up to the Argentinian vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 12:05 PM

His Nazi comments are utterly despicable. Women who seek abortions are never intent on maintaining the purity of the race. That is never why women have abortions. He's a liar. In other contexts, comparing people with Nazis would have you vilified, suspended, expelled. Who the hell does this unearthly befrocked man, a man whose chosen career has guaranteed that he never had to raise a child, think he is? Another no-hope Pope. Ho hum.

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 01:21 PM

No it isn't Keith it's in wide use both sides of the divide

Yes, as a term of sectarian abuse.
Do not bring it here please.

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 03:15 PM

Try not to be so sanctimoniously silly, Keith, as well as so irrelevant to the thread. You're so transparent. Just tell us what you think about the Pope and his intervention.

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 07:51 PM

"Try not to be so sanctimoniously silly, Keith, "
Diversive, you mean
I made the point I did because Bozo, while making a valid point, chose to use it as a sectariian attack on Catholics - Keith forgot to mention that, although it was not as widespread, clerical and physical abuse was happening among the PRODS institutes
(I have heard this term used by Catholics and Protestants since my childhood and it is still common among Northern friends - anybody who objects to it should maybe stop referring to "brainwashed Irish schoolchildren)
Nor are these cases CONFINED TO IRELAND

More details here (can't blue clickie)
https://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/victoria-white/protestant-abuse-history-has-been-swept-under-the-carpet-199687.html

The fact that only Catholic clerical abuse has hit the headlines doesn't men thay they are the soole culprits
So far, the Nothreern Ireland Government has refused even to enquire into the matter
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 08:56 PM

Coming back to this:

"I expect Mr. Shaw won't accept anything less than a rah-rah pro-abortion stance from the Pope."

I have never met anyone in my whole life who is pro-abortion. How many times do I have to say that, Joe? Like any fair-minded liberal soul, I want to see women having the right to choose, untrammelled and free from the strictures of the men of cloth and their brain-dead followers. At the same time I want to see fantastic education for relationships in schools that teaches boys and girls about how to respect themselves and others and (of course) all about sex, and it would be very nice if religious-minded idiots would keep their oars out of it. And I want to see totally free, including moralising-free, access to contraception and information about contraception. It would also be very nice if that was tied to a drive towards equality and an end to poverty. Unfortunately, your Church militates against all that. Your Church prefers to keep people in ignorance. You've just sainted an extremely evil, rich woman who told the poor to celebrate their poverty and who wanted young women to be kept in ignorance and guilt. If my approach was adopted, abortion would be reduced to a vanishingly-small problem. Your Church is actually the champion of abortion. Mostly of the kind of back-street abortion that maims and kills young women the world over. What a pity you can't confront that. I'm a damn sight more anti-abortion than you are, pal.

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 18 - 02:46 AM

The Pope is due toi visit Ireland in a couple of weeks time - itt is hard not to believe that this is a propaganda exercise to revive the flagging fortunes of The Catholic Church here
If it is, them upstairs (temporal - that is) are going about it in the wrong way
Thanks to Vulture Capitalism, which is allowing firms like Goldman Sachs to buy up rented homes here Ireland, vacate them and re-sell them to those who can afford them, cities like Dublin are facing a growing homelessness crisis.
Many of the ejected families are being housed in temporary accommodation, hotels included.
During 'Is 'Olinesses stay, these families will be bussed out of Dublin to temporary temporary accommodation to make room for those who wish to pe part of this Holy Knees-Up
If the hierarchy of the church had a shred of humanity (or the slightest grasp of P.R.) they would roar out in protest at such an inhuman act - nothing so far.
We shall see.

Unfortunately for them upstairs, this viit follows fairly closely on the heels of the revelations that, when the clerical sexual abuse scandals began to hit the fan, a Papal representative was sent to Ireland to request (unofficially) that the Vatican should be exempted from paying compensation to the victims of abuse.
Last March, it was announced that the religious groups still owe €1.3 billion to victims

I seriously believe that these scandals, along with the Church's attitude to homosexuality and, more recently (and still running) family planning and pregnancy termination, have rung the death knell to the power of the church in Ireland (short of Divine Intervention)
I am no friend of the church, but I believe it should be allowed to die with a shred of dignity, for the sake of the genuinely faithful, if for no other reason
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Aug 18 - 02:59 AM

The last two posts (by Steve and Jim) are absolutely excellent and I agree with every word.

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 18 - 07:54 AM

I have always been pro-choice, and have nothing to add to that debate.

My only concern here is Jim using terms of sectarian abuse, and it should be challenged.
Do you think it acceptable Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Thompson
Date: 13 Aug 18 - 08:07 AM

They've asked for volunteers for seven-and-a-half hours of ironing (bring your own iron and board), and are being much mocked with answers like "Unpaid laundry work? That has a familiar ring to it."

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 18 - 08:14 AM

"My only concern here is Jim using terms of sectarian abuse, and it should be challenged."
But you allow yourself to use terms like "cultural implants" and "brainwashed Irish children"
Give us a break Keith - your protests are an attempt to divert the discussion
Please don't mention it again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 18 - 08:56 AM

Ignore him, Jim. You know it makes sense!

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Aug 18 - 10:10 PM

I know the term "Prods" is still widely used, but I think I'd agree with the people who say it's a divisive term and that it's better not to use it. Like Jim, I sometimes use terms that I know are not Politically Correct, so I can't question him on that. I get exasperated about the effort it takes to keep up with what's the right thing to say these days. I work with two guys who are what I'd call "mentally retarded," and I really enjoy them and they like me. One of them is my godson. But I can't bring myself to call them "developmentally disabled" - although my friend their caregiver is legally required to use that term.

But Jim and Steve are right that Keith's protests tend to divert the discussion. Still, I disagree with their comments about how evil the Pope is for expressing his viewpoint. Please note that the Pope does not use any of the tactics of coercion that one might expect from their papal stereotype. He says what he thinks and says it strongly - and without any threats attached. Pope Benedict did the same, as did Mother Teresa (despite the Hitchens demonization of this woman).

And while Steve Shaw himself may be open-minded as he claims on the subject of abortion, he can't accept the Pope's gentle expression of opposition. I think my statement holds true: "I expect Mr. Shaw won't accept anything less than a rah-rah pro-abortion stance from the Pope." Too bad Mr. Shaw saw fit to apply my statement to himself, and not the Pope. Mr. Shaw does tend to twist things to his own advantage.

And please note that it was the Argentine senate that voted against abortion, not the Argentine clergy and not the Pope.

That being said, I'm glad I live in the United States, where women have the right to make their own choices - even though I question the morality of abortion.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 18 - 05:03 AM

You should be questioning the aspects of society that drive women to have abortions - rotten sex and relationships education (or none at all), major religions moralising about sex incessantly to young people, routinely emphasising the "sinful" aspects of it all, deliberately keeping young people ignorant and denying access to contraception and advice on contraception and social deprivation and inequality. That's where the true immorality lies, and the utter failure of the Church on those matters is why the Church is actually the champion, the perpetrator, of abortion. You have no more clue than I do as to how much the Vatican leaned on the bishops and clergy in Argentina (they certainly organised the lobbying of senators) but I note your comments about his merely expressing his views without coercion, etc. I suspect that you're being a little kind to him. And if you regard comparing young abortion-seeking women to Nazis with white gloves on, intent on maintaining the purity of the race, as "gentle expression of opposition," well I honestly don't know what you're thinking. One more time: the Pope is a head of state, but on this occasion he exempted himself from the protocols that excludes heads of state from interfering in the internal politics of a foreign country. You don't like it when Putin does that, do you?

You're in denial, Joe. Just as you are concerning Mother Teresa. Seems to me that you won't see evil because you turn your back when it's being exposed. The lady was a friend of Papa Doc and an admirer of Ceausescu, allowed hundreds of people to die in filth and squalor without medical attention and used the millions she received in donations to expand her convents rather than tending to the sick and needy. She told young women in Ireland that abortion was the biggest threat to world peace and she told the desperately poor not to fight but to celebrate their poverty. All these things are on record, are checkable and are undeniable. You keep her as your saint. She isn't one of mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 18 - 05:34 AM

The word perpetrator there is not what I intended. I meant "perpetuator."

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 05:47 AM

I know this isn't on-topic but I really don't want to open up another thread on the Church here - there'll be plenty of opportunity for that after 'is 'Oliness's visit

A new load of clerical abuse klarts has just hit the fan with an announcement that PENNSYLVANIA has just discovered over 1,000 cases of clerical abuse having been covered up.
It really is time the church as a body got out of making political pronouncements and interfering in peoples' lives
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 06:11 PM

Well the Church certainly played a major role in the debate in Argentina. Whilst I'd defend the right of the Argentinian clergy to state their view, I don't feel the same way at all about the Pope's intervention (which was far more than simply stating his view as an outside observer). The fact that he's Argentinian by birth is completely irrelevant. He is head of state of a foreign country and should keep his nose out of the politics of another country. That is not what he did in this case. And I also don't like the various assumptions here, for example that abortion has anything AT ALL to do with religion, or even that abortion is a "moral issue" that the Church should have some special input about. Abortion is a practical and a social issue, but most importantly a private issue belonging to the woman who wants to make the choice. The moral dimension surrounding this issue concerns the lack of education, the obstacles put up to getting contraception and non-moralising advice about contraception, social inequality and disrespectful attitudes leading to the pressurising of young women fomented by social media and the free availability of online pornography. The male-dominated Church all too readily focuses its attention on young women "doing the wrong thing": you've just sainted a woman who told young Irish women that abortion is the greatest threat to world peace, and your Pope has compared women seeking abortions with Nazis with white gloves on. If you really want to address morality, you'd better look to the issues that Jim has once again highlighted. I'm not going to listen to any Catholic moralising when you saint the likes of Mother Teresa or a Pope who oversaw decades of sexual abuse of children but did next to bugger all about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 06:32 PM

Well, I'm still having a hard time understanding why it's so important to Steve and Jim that popes and Mother Teresa be silenced. It's like they're saying those poor, ignorant sheep in Argentina don't have the ability to think for themselves, so it's important that Enlightened Europeans protect them from the words of evil popes and nuns who belong to a church that has some members that were child molesters.
Just sayin'....

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 06:43 PM

Just sayin' rubbish, Joe. Neither Jim nor I has EVER said that Mother Teresa or the Pope should be silenced. I've been civil enough to put my points in a careful and measured manner, whether you agree or not, and it would be progress if you could try the same approach without misrepresenting what we say.

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 07:23 PM

So, Steve, if I'm not interpreting your wishes correctly, please explain what it is that you think should be done. Seems clear to me that you think it is inappropriate for the Pope to express his church's positions to members of his church. Seems to me, that's the same as wanting him to be silenced.

And it seems to me that no matter what the Pope says, Catholics have complete freedom to make up their own minds. Most of my life, I have disagreed with the official Catholic position on abortion, birth control, ordination of women, and the handling of the sex abuse scandal - and you know, nothing bad has happened to me.

I'm a big boy, and I can think for myself - no matter what the Pope says.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 08:07 PM

You are an articulate, educated man living in a country that values democratic priciples and freedom of expression. You are able to freely rail against the undeniably authoritarian sentiments of your Church. There are many millions of Catholics the world over who are not in your privileged position. And your Church knows that and exploits it to the full. Speaking for yourself is fine, but your situation is unrepresentative of hundreds of millions of Catholics. The point about Argentina for me is not sour grapes. I don't know the place, have little interest in it and will probably never go there. But the people there are human beings just like me, and the polls confirmed that the senate made a decision that went against the wishes of a large majority of the people. I'm glad they have democracy after the horrors of recent decades. But nobody in Argentina voted for the Pope, yet this foreign head of state was pretty certainly backing the heavyweight clerical lobbying of the senators before the vote, and his input quite likely swung the vote. Can't prove that, of course, but it's a bloody good bet. That amounts to interference in the internal politics of the country, adding an unwarranted extra authoritarian religious dimension to what was properly an internal political matter. I'm going to say what I think, Joe, and you can ignore it, address it properly or go all silly and defensive. It would be disappointing if you continued on the latter course.

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 08:15 PM

I guess I ought to add some clarification to this statement from Jim Carroll: A new load of clerical abuse klarts has just hit the fan with an announcement that PENNSYLVANIA has just discovered over 1,000 cases of clerical abuse having been covered up.

The Grand Jury report just released covers 6 of the 8 Catholic dioceses in the state. Previous reports covered the other two dioceses, so now there have been thorough, independent studies of the sex abuse scandal in all of the dioceses of Pennsylvania. I hope that these rigorous investigations are done nationwide, so the matter can finally be put to rest.

But how many of these cases are newly-discovered offenses? And when did these offenses occur?

No doubt, it is a horrible scandal - but we've known of this scandal and we've been dealing with it nationwide since it was reported by the Boston Globe in 2002.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Argentine Senate votes against abortion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 18 - 08:38 PM

I'm not especially fixated on the sex abuse scandals in the Church. My view has always been that a minority of the clergy have abused their position. What's up is that the Church has been reluctant to deal with it, in many cases sweeping things under the carpet, and has failed signally, and with blatant lack of Christianity, to put the interests of the victims first. When the Church has demonstrated such a deficit of morality, in my view it ill-behoves it to moralise about abortion. It's fine, of course, to have a view and to express it forcefully and honestly. But in matters sexual the Church has a lot of bad form and has exercised a lot of misjudgement. The recent intervention in Argentine politics was not only improper but also betrays the lack of judgement, so predictable in matters of sex and relationships, as to when religion should keep its big nose out of things.