Ethical question about ripping CDs

Subject: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 09:58 AM

I am currently in the process of clearing space out so I have ripped many of my CDs to digital format. Loads more to go though! I was thinking about giving the originals to a charity shop but wonder if this is OK within copyright law.

Sub question. Many are folk CDs - Would anyone on here be interested in them?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 10:21 AM

You bought the material originally, I would assume. You copied it for your own use. I don't think there is a problem with that. Or with passing on used CDs to charity shops.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: doc.tom
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 10:25 AM

But 're-selling and keeping the copies is probably illegal - but nobody seems to give a damn.' That advice is from an MCPS employee.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 10:29 AM

Ripping a CD in the UK is illegal, even if it's 'for personal use only' or as a 'backup'. But AFAIC, ripping a CD to your computer whilst retaining the original harms no-one.

Only you can decide if it's ethical to rip a CD and pass a copy on - if I found out that someone was doing that with CDs I've made/performed on, without permission, I'd be pretty pissed-off.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/12021607/Why-in-2015-is-ripping-CDs-still-illegal-in-the-UK.html

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Raedwulf
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 10:33 AM

I can't answer for copyright & law, Dave, but "reasonable use"? If you paid for the CD, the copyright holder has their cut. After that, it's yours to dispose of if you don't make a profit, or deprive them of theirs.

So, from the ethical pov, I've always recorded music I've bought for my own use. I bought it, I'm not cheating anyone. I've sometimes been given or lent a tape / etc. If I liked it, I've bought the original; if I didn't, I wouldn't have anyway. I'm not cheating anyone. If I paid for it... I can hand it over to a charity shop if I want. It's my property to dispose of, the manufacturer (be that the performer or label) has been paid the one time they're entitled to expect to be paid, and they haven't been ripped off by me seeking to profit from them.

To me, that is all perfectly ethical. I don't see any issue with recording music for your own use, and how you choose to dispose of something you paid for is entirely up to you. Provided you're not cloning whatever for your own benefit!

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Johnny J
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 10:38 AM

Personally, I feel OK about copying a CD if it's for personal use....   On my computer, IPOD, or even on a cassette tape/mini disc although the latter would be uncommon these days.

It wouldn't be right to pass these copies or the original on to someone else although they would be welcome to listen if I was present(not a public performance situation, of course).

One interesting thought..... Many CDs and vinyl albums are now sold with additional free downloads. So, it is possible to legally have more than one copy of the music for your own use I'd assume?

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 10:40 AM

I thought there was something about having to keep the original. Damn! Looks like attic storage is back on the cards.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 10:42 AM

Posted that before I saw your reply Raedwulf. Interesting points.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 10:42 AM

The 'Reasonable Use' (i.e. 'personal use/backup') clause was overruled by the 2015 High Court decision, Raed. So it's illegal - period.

But making a 'personal use' copy is harmless, IMHO, and I do precisely that for the CDs I carry around in the car - the copy goes in the car, the original stays safely at home. However I don't, and won't, copy CDs and pass them on - that's theft.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 10:44 AM

Nor do I accept copies from other people!

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 10:45 AM

Would it be theft if I did not make a copy and just gave it away? I am now thinking why bother ripping them at all. I cam stream most things through my premium Spotify account anyway!

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 10:49 AM

In fact, on reflection, if I own the CD and pay to listen to it on Spotify I am being ripped off! It is my duty as a trainee Yorkshireman to ensure that doesn't happen. :-)

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Raedwulf
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 11:07 AM

Bw - As I said, I can't answer for copyright & legal. But I doubt anyone is going to waste time & effort prosecuting Dave for disposing of something for nothing. Etcetera.

The law may well be, as you suggest, black & white. But there's always grey, however divisively B&W something might be. No-one is going to fuss about retaining a copy for personal use whilst giving the original away, surely? Those of us that still have tapes would be in serious trouble, for a start! ;-)

Dave - Don't waste your time. You're either a Yorkshireman or you aren't. If they've told you otherwise, it's because the tight-fisted bastards are trying to screw money out of you somehow… ;-)

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 11:08 AM

I have a number of precious copies of CDs sent to me by Mudcat's Art Thieme, copies of his own CDs that are out of print. There are always exceptions to the rule.

Here in the US selling used media is a thriving business, so books, LPs, CDs, DVDs, they're all in that secondary marketplace.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Raedwulf
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 11:34 AM

The point there, Stilly, is that someone paid for the original. So the artist got their cut, the label got their cut, and what happens to the LP / tape / CD / etc after that...

I took Dave's title at face value. Ethical. If you've paid for a legit copy, it's yourn, and if you don't seek to profit or to deprive the original owner, then... Etcetera. As Bw suggests, it might not be legal. But it still feels ethical to me!

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 11:45 AM

But, if you're taking a copy, then passing the original on, there are now two copies in existence. The copyright holder has only been paid for one of them.
Taking a copy for your own use (back up for damage etc.)seems fine to me. But if you don't retain the original I don't see you have the right to retain a copy.
If you donate the original to charity, but retain the copy you've made, the next person to buy it from the charity shop may do the same. there's now three copies in circulation, for which the original artist/copyright holder has been 'stiffed' for two fees. This can go on increasing ad infinitum.

It is NOT ethical. (answer to original question).
It is, however, common practice.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Nick
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 11:54 AM

>>If you've paid for a legit copy, it's yours, and if you don't seek to profit or to deprive the original owner, then...

Hmmm. Interesting.

I have an Aardvark LP that I bought in 1970. 23/6d if I remember on the Deram label. Now I have seen it listed in a book of LP values as anything up to several hundreds of pounds (example ). If I were to sell it at whatever price am I then duty bound to return the excess profit to the band or record company?

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Raedwulf
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 12:04 PM

Poor argument, Nigel. If I buy Exhibit A, I own Exhibit A. Agreed?

If I then dispose of Exhibit A without having made a copy, where does that leave your point? Is it not OK to dispose of something you have bought? Of course, that's not what you are suggesting, but you see where this is going, yes?

Sorry Dave - mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima Mudcat meander, etc! ;-)

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 12:37 PM

Indignant folks always seem to neglect a key point from this near exhausted debate...

The mega corporations who own the record lables
also tend to own manufacturers of copying equipment and blank recording/storage media...

Music industry execs, accountants, and lawyers will always prosper from the work of exploited artists
who sold their souls to be part of all this corporate profiteering...

..and a minority of singers & bands still get very rich...


There are of course exceptions in our tiny DIY cottage folk industry...


pssst... anyone wanna buy two hardly used and obsolete CD duplicators...
Burn a box of CDs to sell at a gig or car boot sale..
Guaranteed to be mostly be unplayable...

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 01:05 PM

“Ethics”

Legal? - Read the law. If no, then no. If yes,

Ethical? - Are you a member of relevant a professional body? Are you subject to a normative reference? If yes, apply the written standard. If no,

Moral? - Comfort zone; born with you; subject to change without notice until you die; then poof… all gone!

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: John P
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 01:08 PM

I'm a musician with recordings. I believe in getting paid for my work. If someone has a copy of one of my CDs that I didn't get paid for, it means I'm going to work and not getting any wages.

"Disposing" of a CD by giving it to charity, or selling it, or giving it to your friend, isn't disposing of it if you keep a copy. My interest isn't in how many copies of a CD are out there, but rather in how many people have possession of my music. Sorry, but keeping an album and giving away a copy of it is theft, even if there is no money involved. Someone gets to enjoy the fruits of my work without paying me.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 01:37 PM

Then there's the case where the 'proper' CD won't play correctly whilst the ripped copy plays properly.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 01:42 PM

I wonder if any singers of traditional songs will ever pay back the singers who gave them their material
Nobody has so far
Every time a singer copyrights a traditional song (all traditional songs are "arrangements" by definition, before somebody couchs up the old excuse) they are ripping off somebody else
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 02:15 PM

I had a habit of copying CDs in order to keep the copy in the car, for personal use. I had the 'master' CD at home. I had the copy in the car, and I could only listen to one at a time. I still have the masters and the copies but now I don't listen to either of them, I listen to mp3s I made from the masters and put on my wearable music player.

I believe that I'm on the legal up-and-up so long as I maintain the master and any personal copies I made. But have I checked the actual laws? And would I understand the legalese if I did?


Meanwhile, I still have cassettes that I made by recording off the air. Used 'em a lot, like many folks I know. Was that legal? I never thought about it. And what about cases where I later bought the album I'd initially recorded from the radio? Did I go from an 'illegal' state to a legal one?


Inquiring minds want to know (unless they are bored stiff).

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 02:24 PM

I think artists with a "how dare you listen to my music without paying for it..." mindset
are doomed to probable obscurity and a life of bitterness...

..though there are exceptions.. very miserly big name exceptions..

Allegedly suing devoted fans for many thousands £££$$$ for including favourite songs on fan websites...

most of us may have some of their CDs...

But they are exceptions because depite their unlikable personalies,
they made/make great music that multitudes of folks want to enjoy one way or another..

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Raedwulf
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 02:46 PM

Sorry, John P, but I disagree. I am... whatever I am. Whether or not I am a copyright holder in my own right is beside the point. If I buy a track or an album from you, I have paid you for it. If I choose to put it on my E-device so I can listen to it in the car, when jogging, whatever, that's my choice. You sold it to me. If I choose to give that track or album away, there is sod all you can do about it.

If I seek to profit from it, by making copies & selling them, then I am both unethical & illegal. But when I give it away... Whoever I give it to, you have no say over it. The law can say whatever the law says and, if someone cares to prosecute over the pennies & the principle, the law will win. But I am STILL not being unethical. I am not stealing from you. You sold it to me. I paid you fair pennies for it. How many times do you think you're entitled to be paid for one recording that you were happy to make for the pennies that would accrue, and how do you expect to collect?

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 02:57 PM

"I think artists with a "how dare you listen to my music without paying for it..." mindset
are doomed to probable obscurity and a life of bitterness.."

Well I'm not sure that's what people are saying here (I'm certainly not). People frequently listen to my music with out paying me for it - I perform regularly at folk clubs, open-mics etc., and do support spots for pro musicians, many times with no payment - no complaint, I thoroughly enjoy the 'live' stuff, and I give my time and talents, such as they are, freely for nothing more than the satisfaction of knowing peoople have enjoyed what I do. Apart from a gallon or two of diesel, a couple of Diet Cokes, and my time (most of which I also get to listen to other performers for nothing) it's cost me nothing. And 'listening to my music' in those circumstances is a transient thing - they hear it, then it's gone for ever into the ether - they only 'own' a memory.

But a CD is a different kettle of fish. It's involved a great deal of hard work in the making, and has cost me (and others if it's a joint effort, a band CD for instance) a substantial amount of money in terms of studio time, artwork, MCPS/PRS Royalties (for using other writers' material) and duplication/pressing costs, and it's a permanent thing - they 'own' my music for as long as the CD physically exists. Therefore I feel perfectly justified in expecting anyone taking away one of those CDs to contribute towards the production costs, and reward me for the music on it.

I've never expected to make a living from music, and I haven't been disappointed! But I think, where the production of recorded material is concerned, it's reasonable to expect a return on investment.

The usual disclaimers apply - IMHO, YMMV.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 03:11 PM

"You sold it to me. If I choose to give that track or album away, there is sod all you can do about it."

No, it's unethical, and it's illegal. You bought one copy of the track or CD, but you didn't buy the copyright to that work. The copyright is still owned by the person who published the work, and only the owner of the copyright may publish copies of the work.

"How many times do you think you're entitled to be paid for one recording that you were happy to make for the pennies that would accrue, and how do you expect to collect?"

The owner of the copyright to the CD is entitled to be paid for every copy of that recording, no matter whether it's an 'official' copy or a bootleg. Not my opinion, the law says so. And making a copy and giving it away denies the copyright owner a sale of the 'official' work.

And we're not talking about the mechanics of the application of copyright law here, merely whether passing-on copies of a recorded work - either FOC, or for barter, or for money, is legal or ethical.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 03:14 PM

Where is Richard Bridge when you need him (Richard is/was a member of this forum, and a lawyer of note in the field of copyright law).

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: StephenH
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 05:57 PM

Well, here's another interesting twist:
My local library system (I'm in Canada) lets me download 5 free songs each week.
A lot of times, only selected tracks from a particular album are
made available, but sometimes the whole album is there.
The library system pays for the original recording but, unlike with books, the library only needs to purchase one 'copy' of a recording
unlike the several copies they might purchase of a really popular book.
(As my local library also loans physical CDs, perhaps they do buy
multiple copies of those.)
So, in effect, they are giving away free copies.
I would guess this can't happen under UK law - or does it?
(When one borrows 'ebooks', they can only be downloaded for a limited
time. I wonder if something similar could be done with music?)

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 06:42 PM

As an early covert to "Nero Burning ROM"...

AND an advocate of TOR....

Once a file is released to the "Web" it is open source to everyone.

Password, profile, friends, e-mail, favorites, porn, songs, performers,...

It is a VERY simple sort of data.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Pay the fee for six-month of Lexus Nexus....The "semi-dark" web will give you serious shivers about what lies beneath....

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 07:39 PM

I used to be very strict on this eg when guests performed at the folk club would either buy their cassettes or not but would not accept copies from others or give copies. Now times have changed, so I'm told, and it's live gigs that make the money for performers so perhaps if I give someone a copy of a CD that encourages them to buy a ticket for a gig perhaps I am doing the performer a favour.

Certainly, there are many, many people releasing albums these days. Not sure how sales would have a significant impact on a performer's living.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Sep 18 - 11:11 PM

A few years ago Ricky Lee Jones came up to Anchorage to give a great show. Available to buy was a wrist wrap-around with a USB that contained all her albums. Affordable. I don't think it was even digital rights protected. I thought this was a leap forward from CDs but haven't run into it again.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Gurney
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 02:00 AM

Well, DavetG, to my mind, never mind the ethical, think of the practical.
A percentage of the CDs/tapes/LPs that I've copied have played well for a number of times, and then the sound has deteriorated. Sometimes into a total mess.
I don't know why, but it isn't because I'm doing it on one particular burner, -I've owned four, all bought new, and it isn't because I've used a particular brand of disk nor a specific burning program.

I've also had harddrives crap out and lost copies that way.

I don't think that this problem is just me. I've also bought, from the artists, self produced CDs which have descended into a hammering noise, and another where the silver recording surface bubbled off the disk.

I'm not unlucky in every aspect of my life. I got a new cartridge for the phono and the LPs play perfectly, even the very first one I bought, sixty years ago.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 02:07 AM

Thanks for your input one and all. Difficult decision but I am going to give all the major league stuff to a charity shop so it is not being wasted. As has been said, I paid for it and am still paying for it in legal streams so I think a charity benefiting from it is ethical, if not legal.

Smaller local artists, many of whom I know, are a different kettle of fish. Not many have their stuff on Spotify and I certainly would not want to injure their CD sales. However, many of them are one off limited edition pressings that are no longer in sale, so does it really reduce their takings? In addition many of them are unheard of outside the locality so sending their work to foreign climes spreads their fame. I am going, wherever I can, to ask the artist in question and abide by their decision.

Thanks again everyone.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Johnny J
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 05:34 AM

Perfect solution... Why not donate the CDs to your local Charity shop and then buy them back yourself?

:-))

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 06:09 AM

:-D

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 06:13 AM

Some interesting arguments here, but what happens to all the recordings you hang on to in cherished collections (there are still some of us left)? When I die, someone will either inherit all mine, or pick them up for free without me consciously having passed them on to someone else. Tragically, most will probably get recycled or sent to landfill, not appreciating the difficulty (and many hours) I went through sourcing them in the first place. If I can’t take them with me, I’m simply not going.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: GUEST,Rev Bayes
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 06:16 AM

I think the law and ethics have been well covered.

In terms of the discs themselves, I wonder if there are organisations that might be a better home for your CDs than a charity shop. The library at Halsway, for example.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 06:22 AM

Possibly, Rev, but the charity shop ones are primarily big names that are readily available all over the place. The rarer ones, once I get permission if possible, could well end up somewhere more suitable.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Johnny J
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 06:32 AM

"Tragically, most will probably get recycled or sent to landfill"

Unless a CD or vinyl is of sentimental value or a possible "Collector's Item", then as long as you have a good copy in a safe format are you actually losing out by just disposing of the original in "land fill"?

I know that seems a terrible waste and I, personally, would be loathe to chuck CDS out like that but maybe it's the correct and, technically, legal thing to do?

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 07:46 AM

You all clearly have nothing to do - it really doesn't matter!!!

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: GUEST,Pfr sat in the meditation room
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 07:50 AM

In an infant school my Mrs works in,
they use donated unwanted CDs to decorate trees
around the playground...

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Johnny J
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 08:29 AM

"You all clearly have nothing to do - it really doesn't matter!!! "

The same thing could be said about every thread on here, Bonzo3Legs.
:-))

Anyway, keeping a copy and donating the original to a charity shop is fairly harmless as things go. I agree.
Also, those performers who feel that they are losing out should surely realise that someone spending a couple of pounds at a charity shop would probably have never bought the original CD in the first place.
Most genuine music lovers will happily pay the full price for something that they really want.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 08:41 AM

I had an addiction to buying CDs which I curbed to the barest minimum in the last 5 years or so.
Now that I find the music of my teens is now available very cheaply on less than a fiver multi CD boxsets,
I started up again...

Last week it was Ska & Regggae, this week Northern Soul...

Yesterday when I picked up Amazon Parcels from the post office, the manager [guess he's late 30s to mid 40s]
mentioned he never buys CDs anymore, and hasn't for a long time...

I made a positive case for cheap boxset nostalgia compilations..
and left him mulling over that thought...

The other bloke in the post office, said the music of his teens was techno and rave...


101 hit songs for £4.99..
I daresay the original artists see next to no royalties on these compilations...

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 09:13 AM

..and now there's the increasing crop of expensive 50th and 40th Anniversary Deluxe re-releases...

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 09:25 AM

I have to say, old CDS also make good bird scarers if you dangle them from trees.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 10:54 AM

I once attached a load of old CDs to a waistcoat to make armour for my character in a pace-egg play. I told people it was not plate mail or chain mail but e mail :-) Honest!

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 11:09 AM

Sounds like a CD character.....21st Century sequins, huh?

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Sep 18 - 11:14 AM

earrings...???

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: BobL
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 03:20 AM

To satisfy my conscience, I've kept the originals of everything I've ever ripped - CDs, vinyl and cassettes.
I did warn my executor that his first thought on entering my loft would be to wonder how big a skip would be needed...

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Raedwulf
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 05:54 PM

It clearly does matter to some people, Bonzo, so that was a remarkably stupid comment. Par for the course, I suppose...

The owner of the copyright to the CD is entitled to be paid for every copy of that recording, no matter whether it's an 'official' copy or a bootleg. Not my opinion, the law says so. And making a copy and giving it away denies the copyright owner a sale of the 'official' work.

I refer the Honourable Bw to my earlier remarks. 1) I'm not debating legality, because I don't have the knowledge to do so. And in any case, you say that they say... And I'm quite happy to take your word for it! Ethics is another matter, and each to their own. The only thing you get to say is "Your ethics are not my ethics".

2) Your last sentence cuts both ways - there are a number of albums and, indeed, bands that I would never have got into to were it not for copies. And I will quote myself (to save you scrolling back up) I've sometimes been given or lent a tape / etc. If I liked it, I've bought the original; if I didn't, I wouldn't have anyway. I'm not cheating anyone. If I've got into a band & bought several of their albums on the strength of one copy... I don't need to belabour the point, do I? It cuts both ways. So it may well be illegal, but it ain't necessarily unethical, despite your differing opinion.

Oh, and what about the second-hand market? I presume that the '15 ruling means that 60 years of flea markets & etc are now illegal? It may be the law, but the law, as Dickens pointed out, can also be an ass...

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 30 Sep 18 - 10:00 PM

The world wide web IS...NOT....FREE.
This folk forum offers an island of sanity.

Has anyone, recently given a contribution to mudcat org?

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

I know I am light on my offerings.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 02:52 AM

I repeat - It really doesn't matter!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 03:33 AM

CDs do have a certain potential for other artistic uses.......(wearing my photo-artist's hat)

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 03:59 AM

When I began to listen to folk song albums were regarded as being a medium for sharing our music
Doesn't seem to apply anymore (unless there's money involved)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Johnny J
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 06:41 AM

"a medium for sharing our music"

Yes, and we would often learn songs, "riffs", and guitar picking patterns off them.
Were we also "cheating the composer/arist" by not buying the sheet music, their song/tune books etc?

Also, without making excuses for anyone, I very much doubt if artists are likely to make any extra money if their CDs were not made available in charity shops, car boot sales etc. Nor even in the occasional gifting a copy of a CD to a partner or friend.
The chances are that, in 99% of these cases, the recipient would have had absolutely no intention of buying the album in the first place. However, he or she might end up enjoying the music and actually buy the album or, at least, other recordings in the future.

About 30 years, a friend gave me a tape of "The New Victory Band" which I enjoyed so much that I actually bought the vinyl album. Many years later, I bought the CD version. And, of course, I also purchased other music by Pete Coe and some of the other musicians as well as attending many gigs over the years. So they did alright by me, I reckon.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 07:52 AM

Show of Hands actively encourage sharing copies of their CDs and audience recordings of their gigs because it puts bums on seats and invokes potential buyers of their merchandise.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 08:05 AM

"It clearly does matter to some people, Bonzo" - half a dozen on mudcat perhaps, which is not many!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 08:18 AM

Shall I be the one to mention how daft it is that some folkies get so angry about
other folks listening to their recordings without paying for it...

When such a sizable proportion of DIY Folk CDs are little more than vanity press,
with no hope of ever being listened to beyond friends and family...

During the 1990s / 2000s CD burning boom,
I lost count of how many bands and singers were giving away their unsold Discs free
to anyone who might want to listen to them...

At best they functioned as promotional tools...

Artists who forked out for proper mastered factory pressed CDs,
with full printed booklets,
fared no better...

If they were out of pocket, that was the risk they took to fulfill an ambition
to 'release' a CD...

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 08:27 AM

Mudcat misery syndrome!!!

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 09:05 AM

Raedwulf, pfr, et al - please read Dave's OP again. Despite the title saying he was asking a question about ethics, he actually asked about copyright law in the body of his post. Now read my several responses again please. I answered his question about copyright law.

On the subject of performers giving their CDs away, or encouraging buyers to copy them and pass them on, that's absolutely fine - the performers own the intellectual property, and they are perfectly at liberty to give permission in that way. I've done it myself, on numerous occasions, it's a nice thing to do and there's a cool feel-good factor results from it.

The question of ethics is an individual thing - I stated my own ethical viewpoint, that I only make copies of CDs for my own personal use (e.g. in the car, to avoid leaving originals where they could be damaged, or an enticement to a car-breaker), and that I neither make copies for distribution to others, nor do I accept such copies. Those are my personal views on the ethical issue, and I really don't give a flying fuck how 'daft' you think it is, or how unlikely it is that someone doing it would 'get caught' - my ethics, my decision.

I'm happy to leave it to others to decide where their views on the ethics of the issue reside.

Out.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 09:10 AM

Bwm - fair do's...

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 09:12 AM

Sorry PFR
I'm not sure that the ambition to release a CD (or any sort of album) ever featured strongly in the folk world I occupied
Folk song thrived at its best when it was based on non-professionals who were there for the songs, not the cudos or the money
I said earlier that the people who gave us our songs seldom got paid a penny but were happy to pass on what they had - now we hear talk of performers who would rather donate their music to landfill (and teh ecological damage that implies) rather than let that happen
The times certainly are a-changin'

My favourite story of collecting from source musicians and singers came from pioneering Irish traditional music broadcaster, Cairán Mac Mathuna
He was recording a veteran fiddle player in Kerry wh spent the evening giving him dozens of fine tunes
At the end of the session, Cairán said, "now there's the matter of a small recording fee".
The old man thought for a minute and finally said: "I have no money in the house at present, but I'm taking a bullock to the mart tomorrow if you wouldn't mind waiting".
Where have all those flowers gone, I wonder ?
Jim

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 09:16 AM

.. topical to debates on copyright law

the arsehole mercenary lawyers who are a blight on living breathing music culture,
are at it again on the Led Zep money trail...

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 10:01 AM

Sorry guys, yes I did ask about copyright law. It should have been a double barrelled question about both law and ethics. I should be clearer.

BWM. I can understand why you don't accept copies. Where do you draw the line though? Do you not buy 2nd hand CDs in case they have been ripped? How would you ever know?

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 10:20 AM

My simple opinion...

Profiteering Music Industry execs, lawyers, and accountants are far worse parasites and rip-off villains,
than any of us average common-sense music fans can ever be...

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 10:31 AM

"Profiteering Music Industry execs,"
If your interest in in a specific type of music, the responsibility to choose what you are prepared to donate to it is yours entirely and nobody else's
Because there are sharks around that is no reason that we should all sprout fins and teeth
Jim

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 10:36 AM

In again...

I think there's an important point that's being missed here.

I've never 'needed' to make money from music. I've had a successful career elsewhere, I've been retired on a decent pension for several years. I'm a mainly-amateur/occasional semi-pro, part-time artist. I frequently play for nothing, as does the band I'm part of - I do it because I love making music, and because I get pleasure and enjoyment from giving pleasure and enjoyment to the extent that my talents, such as they are, allow. I don't 'need' to sell CDs. I suppose, as someone alluded to above, they are an ego-driven project, and my only aim has been to cover the production costs - unsuccessfully so far! This is the nature of the 'folkie' world I inhabit.

But there are many professionals who do rely on CD sales at gigs and elsewhere to make up a substantial part of their earnings. These aren't 'superstars', travelling by chauffeur-driven car, staying in good hotels, with a road manager to handle life's necessities, and a crew to lug and set up/break down, and load for them. They are people who drive themselves around in eight-year-old cars with 250k miles on the clock, sleep in club-organisers' spare rooms or on their sofas, and give a great show for the kind of money that probably wouldn't buy Ed Sheeran a decent dinner.

I know several personally.

And every bootleg copy of a CD takes food out of those people's mouths. They need to sell them to be able to keep performing.

Someone also mentioned Streaming. I follow Roseanne Cash - a worldwide artist - who has written widely about the effects of streaming on artists, and fights for artists rights with regard to streaming. She testified before the US Congress that her earnings from 600,000 plays on, I believe, Spotify, earned her the princely sum of $114. I call that robbery on a grand scale.

It's not all roses for artists, even 'big name' artists.

Out again...

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 10:42 AM

And, to answer your question which came in while I was typing my last post, Dave, no I don't buy 2nd hand CDs. I prefer to buy brand new CDs, preferably direct from the artists themselves at gigs, or from their websites, so that I know that they are getting full value for the time and effort they put in to producing them.

If I have to buy from a retailer, I try to avoid Amazon.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 11:30 AM

Ah but I always hand tips to waiters and waitresses in cash, so that I know they get them and not the restaurant owner.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 11:32 AM

Me too.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Johnny J
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 11:55 AM

"Ah but I always hand tips to waiters and waitresses in cash, so that I know they get them and not the restaurant owner"

Things can get tricky though.
In some restaurants, you give one waiter/ress your order and another brings the soup. Someone else will ask if everything is OK while another serves the main course. Quite possibly, yet another will bring the dessert and and you have to ask someone else for the bill.
.....I haven't even mentioned the wine waiter yet!

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 01:21 PM

Pfr: "Music Industry execs, lawyers, and accountants...

KFVD - Los Angeles, 1937
Industry exec - J. Frank Burke
Lawyer - W. Maxwell Burke
Accountant - Loyal K. King

Brothers & son-in-law & partners in the Pacific Broadcasting Co. KFVD was just one of the AM radio stations and newspapers they controlled. Dirty, rotten, filthy, stinking rich, capitalist, politicians all. The very people Woody Guthrie, and you, still protest.

Talent - Woodrow Guthrie (et al)

Producer - artist - consumer. Roles to play. Enjoy the show.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 04:48 PM

I always pay with cash in restaurants and go prepared with a whole range of denominations of coins and notes. I don't want my debit card to go outside my arm's length or field of view for any transaction, anywhere, at all.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: MickyMan
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 07:29 PM

I have actually gone up to artists at concerts, handed them a five dollar bill, and apologized for previously ripping their CD from a friend.   Usually, they look confused for a second, then chuckle a bit and happily take my "guilt money".   I have yet to have anybody get angry with me about it.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: mg
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 07:51 PM

I have put together cds with various people...i always prefer non-copyrighted songs. Sometimes people have already recorded the song and I have given up asking certain ones..they are afraid I will make too much money off their songs. I usually have 20 songs on a cd and sell for $10. I can assure everyone I am not making too much money..I try to break even and make enough for the next one.

Anyway, I pay enough copyrights to cover telling some people it is ok to make copies, and most songs are either traditional or people on cd have written them and given permission. But when I was in Ireland..and you can't ship to Ireland for a reasonable price..I wanted to tell MY RELATIVES they could make a few copies. I felt stymied over this because I knew that a couple of people on the cd were adamant over this issue. I just will not put them on future cds so that I can tell people, such as my relatives with my potato famine cd, that they can copy stuff. that a fisherman/woman at fisher poets can copy stuff for his friends after some disaster in Alaska. I respect what people tell me about their preferences but from now on I will only work with people who are free and easy about this..that any cds I produce people will be able to tell their friends it is ok to make a copy or two. This would not work for many people but then they won't be on the cds and can make their own with their own rules.

And to repeat. I will not ever put a canadian song on the cd without copyright proof in hand. It is a terrible ordeal working your way through their strangled mess. I got in trouble with someone over let me fish off cape st. mary's..after I had talked with a family member, after I had paid royalties. I had to destroy a set of just run off cds right before fisher poets. I have learned my lesson about Canadian copyrights...Unless you know the person who wrote it, or experts say it is traditional, don't think you can just pay an agency and be fine. It does not work that way and I don't have the stamina or desire to do that again.

Subject: RE: Ethical question about ripping CDs
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 02:53 AM

i agree with Jim.
Show of hands have a pop approach to folk music so i am not surprised they do what they do