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Lyr Req: Irish songs +Thomas Muir of Huntershill

Related threads:
Lyr Add: Thomas Muir (10)
Lyr Req: Thomas Muir of Huntershill (A McNaughton) (11)
Thomas Muir - Adam McNaughton (18)


Gallus Moll 01 Oct 18 - 06:29 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 18 - 04:12 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 02 Oct 18 - 07:02 AM
Thompson 02 Oct 18 - 05:41 PM
Jack Campin 03 Oct 18 - 05:28 AM
Gallus Moll 03 Oct 18 - 10:37 AM
Gallus Moll 03 Oct 18 - 10:40 AM
Jack Campin 03 Oct 18 - 11:00 AM
Jim McLean 03 Oct 18 - 01:20 PM
Jim McLean 03 Oct 18 - 01:43 PM
Jack Campin 03 Oct 18 - 01:59 PM
Jim McLean 03 Oct 18 - 02:30 PM
Jack Campin 03 Oct 18 - 02:53 PM
Jim McLean 03 Oct 18 - 03:45 PM
Jack Campin 03 Oct 18 - 07:17 PM
GUEST,Redneckred 04 Oct 18 - 12:12 AM
Gallus Moll 04 Oct 18 - 09:38 AM
GUEST 04 Oct 18 - 09:51 AM
GUEST,Jim McLean 04 Oct 18 - 09:54 AM
Gallus Moll 04 Oct 18 - 11:28 AM
Jim McLean 04 Oct 18 - 12:01 PM
Gallus Moll 04 Oct 18 - 05:06 PM
Gallus Moll 14 Oct 18 - 10:52 AM
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Subject: Lyr Req: Irish songs +Thomas Muir of Huntershill
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 01 Oct 18 - 06:29 PM

Thomas Muir of Huntershill, the father of Scottish Democracy, went to Dublin in 1792 to meet with The United Irishmen and become a member of that organisation, prior to returning to Scotland to be arrested face a totally unjust trial by the establishment, and being transported to Australia for sedition.
I have been told that there are some Irish songs that mention Thomas Muir and perhaps some of the other Scottish Martyrs, possibly also Tom Paine and others who were trying to effect changes in society?
Can anyone help me track any of these songs down please?

- I am also interested in any other political songs from or about that era when rights were being sought for the ordinary man.

Also - are there any songs from the French revolution that would mention Thomas Muir of even just the political developments in other countries? (Thomas Muir escaped from Australia and made it back to France where he died in 1799, sadly he never saw Scotland again)

I know of 4 contemporary songs about Thomas Muir . the Scottish Martyrs (by Adam McNaughtan, Jim McLean, Iain Ingram) but if anyone can point me towards any others - or older songs or poems - I would be delighted!

Is there a faint possibility of an Australian song from his time as a prisoner there?
Thanks in advance - --


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish songs +Thomas Muir of Huntershill
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 04:12 AM

Hi Tattie (do wish these chosen names didn't souns as if you are insulting people)
I'm grateful for this introduction to 'a friend I hadn't met yet' - I have to confess I hadn't heard of Muir before now
I can't find any references to him in any of the places I would have expected to, (Georges Zimmermann's 'Songs of Irish Rebellion' or Terry Moylan's 'Age of Revolution'
othing in our Australian books either - I thought there might have been something in Ingleton's (largely prose) broadsides, 'True Patriots All' but I suppose the events are too early for that
Can I suggest you try Terry Moylan at Na Píobarí Uilleann - he's done a considerable amount of work on Irish Political songs and has, I know, only published some of them - his major work on the period was the one mentioned above
If it is of any use I can pm you a contact address
Below is an entry on Muir from 'The Oxford Companion to Scottish History'
Good luck - I'll be interested if you some up with anything
Jim

Muir, Thomas (1765-99), prominent radical during the political agitation inspired by the *French Revolution. Born and educated in Glasgow, he completed his studies in Edinburgh and was called to the Bar in 1787. Energetic and earnest, he became active in the restricted reforming circles of the time. When the Friends of the People, a movement originating in London, extended into Scotland, Muir helped to found its branch in Glasgow in 1792 and was chosen a delegate to its Scottish conven¬tion. He emerged as leader of its smaller, less moderate faction. He was also in touch with the United Irishmen and he read out to the convention an ad¬dress from them. It called for a joint campaign in favour of reform by Scotsmen and Irishmen and expressed nationalistic sentiments which Muir endorsed. As a result he was arrested for sedition early in 1793. He compounded his offence by going to Paris while on bail to witness the Revolution at first hand. France meanwhile declared war on Britain and he had great difficulty in getting back. At his trial in August he faced a hostile jury and the implacable Lord Braxfield, determined to make an example of him. Muir got fourteen years’ transportation, a sentence regarded on every hand as inhumanely harsh. Yet it was allowed to stand and he arrived at Botany Bay in 1795 (see Australia). He stayed only a few months before he managed to escape on a merchant's ship. He sailed to North America, then made his way through Mexico and Cuba to Spain. The vessel on which he entered Cadiz was attacked by ships of the British blockade and Muir suffered severe wounds. He went to Paris to be greeted as a revolutionary hero, but his efforts to encourage the French to invade Scotland came to nothing, and he died in drunken obscurity.
MRGF


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish songs +Thomas Muir of Huntershill
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 07:02 AM

The best-known song about Muir is "Scots Wha Hae". Burns drops a very strong hint in the note to the song as published: he was in southwest Scotland as Muir was landed there in chains to be taken to Edinburgh for trial (though it seems, from Jim MacLean's research, that he didn't actually see Muir in transit as I had thought).


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish songs +Thomas Muir of Huntershill
From: Thompson
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 05:41 PM

There's a kind of glancing reference to Muir in the memoirs of Miles Byrne.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish songs +Thomas Muir of Huntershill
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 05:28 AM

This is the only French connection with Muir I've found so far - a French review of an art installation in Belfast in 2008.

http://laprecaritedusage.blog.lemonde.fr/2008/11/


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish songs +Thomas Muir of Huntershill
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 10:37 AM

Thanks for your interest. links and suggestions folks! (Jim, Jack, Thomson) The longer items I shall peruse in due course.

Jim -- I am Gallus Moll, no' Tattie Bogle!   And dinna worry aboot insulting us - we chose our own pseudonyms!
- I would appreciate the address for Terry Moylan, thanks.

I don't expect more than a fleeting mention of Thomas Muir or any of the Scottish Martyrs in Irish songs, but he did pass through Belfast and visit Dublin in (June?) 1792 on his journey back from France - and was inducted into United Irishmen.
Jack - I had heard that suggestion re. Scots Wha Hae /Burns witnessing two of them (I think) being taken back to Edinburgh - but I can't remember where I read it and if Jim has researched the possibility and found no evidence then alas it will be apocryphal.

Thomson - Miles Byrne's memoirs look very interesting - do you know if it is a book I could find eg Abe books or a library, or is it a limited print run? I'll read it online bit by bit - at some point!

There are several books about Thomas Muir of Huntershill available here (Scotland) but I think most of them (the ones I know of) have been published within the last 40 or 50 years? One is a novel, the rest are either accounts of his life or a collection of articles by various academics and members of The Friends of Thomas Muir of Huntershill (I'll post the titles later- -)

The annual festival is on at the moment - it is spread out over the Autumn and includes a talk in Edinburgh (past!) a concert in Cadder Church (end of November - but get tickets soon as it will sell out) a symposium in various local venues - this year Boclair School - early November, a Thomas Muir Trail walk, and art competition for school pupils -- more info, dates etc from the facebook page! (Cos I am too vague with remembering details)

If you are in Glasgow, -- even via google maps!! - go to Bishopbriggs and Huntershill Village, Crowhill Road G64 1RP - outside the place is a monument/cairn that John Watson (who along with Don Martin has been beating the drum for Thomas Muir for many years, raising awareness) placed to the Scottish Martyrs - his premises are opposite Huntershill House, Thomas Muir's home ( I think it is currently unoccupied and in disrepair,I hope very much it does not get sold for bulldozing and development, it should be a national monument to the 'Father of Scottish Democracy'
(NB the café in Huntershill Village has or had a display of artworks featuring Thomas Muir and aspects of his life)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish songs +Thomas Muir of Huntershill
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 10:40 AM

By the way - despite the thread title, I am interested in ANY songs or poems from any era /place that make mention of Thomas Muir, the Scottish Martyrs, Henry Dundas (the cheating bastard!)or related subjects regarding that era. Thanks


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish songs +Thomas Muir of Huntershill
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 11:00 AM

Look at Burns's letters. The link is as certain as anybody could want:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_Wha_Hae

He wrote the song within a day or two of Muir being landed in Scotland, a few miles from where he was at the time. I'd assumed he actually saw Muir, but from what Jim has dug up it seems he just missed him.

I have some stuff in my "Embro, Embro" pages about that period. The biggie was the King's Birthday riot in (Edinburgh's) George Square in 1792, which was directed more against the slave trade than anything else. The most explicit verse/song statement from the time is "The Tree of Liberty", which is often attributed to Burns, though I think it's equally likely that James Tytler wrote it.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish songs +Thomas Muir of Huntershill
From: Jim McLean
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 01:20 PM

I researched the story via http://www.rbwf.org.uk/digitised-chronicles/
but I can't remember the exact edition though I should be able to find it. I have a hard copy I printed out at the time I was researching and the article was headed 'Burns's Tour of Galloway'.
It gives the exact dates of when and where Burns spent his time and shows he couldn't have witnessed Muir on his way to Edinburgh.
The last paragraph "One feels considerable regret that so picturesque a story, familiar to millions through Dr Currie's narrative and James Scrymgeour's painting, cannot be accepted as true ....."
There is to much to copy but it would appear his companion Dr Syme and Currie told porkies.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish songs +Thomas Muir of Huntershill
From: Jim McLean
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 01:43 PM

I found the article in the 1938 chronicle, page 101 of 231.
It's headed "Burns's tour of Galloway in 1793 and the fable of the composition of Scots wha Hae"
rbsf.org.uk


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish songs +Thomas Muir of Huntershill
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 01:59 PM

That URL doesn't point to anything Burns-related. I think you mean this, page 60:

http://www.rbwf.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/1938.pdf

Which doesn't bear on the relevance of Muir at all. Burns's letter to Thomson makes that clear. Is there a problem with the authenticity of the quote in the second paragraph here, or the dates?

http://www.robertburns.org/encyclopedia/UrbaniPietro17491511816.871.shtml


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish songs +Thomas Muir of Huntershill
From: Jim McLean
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 02:30 PM

Jack, I just found the 1938 reference quickly but when I was researching I was looking at the dates when Burns was in Gate House of Fleet and when Muir was arrested and then transported. The dates proved Burns couldn't have seen Muir being transported.
I have just had a visitor so I put this up quickly. I'll get the dates later and show you what I meant.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish songs +Thomas Muir of Huntershill
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 02:53 PM

He didn't have to have personally seen Muir being transported to get angry enough to write a historical allegory about him. He must have known what was happening, as it happened.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish songs +Thomas Muir of Huntershill
From: Jim McLean
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 03:45 PM

I'll put the dates together later, but my point was that if you look at Burns tour of Galloway, the dates show that Burns couldn't have seen him.
I think that was what I wanted to show.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish songs +Thomas Muir of Huntershill
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 07:17 PM

It doesn't matter whether Burns saw him or not. The important thing is that the song is implicitly about Muir and his movement, as implied by that note to Thomson and the date. doubt you'd ever seen the Duke of Edinburgh shoot a tiger when you wrote your song about him). The pudding may have been over-egged but there is a real pudding there.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish songs +Thomas Muir of Huntershill
From: GUEST,Redneckred
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 12:12 AM

Dick Gaughan does a song about Muir - you can find it on his "Live at the Trades Club" 2008 CD


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish songs +Thomas Muir of Huntershill
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 09:38 AM

Thanks Redneckred,I expect it is Adam McNaughtan's song, it is posted on the other thread along with Jim McLean's and the two by Ian Ingram?
(- I will check Dick's site to check there isn't another that I don't know about!)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish songs +Thomas Muir of Huntershill
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 09:51 AM

Jack, my guest has gone now so I can concentrate!
I should have sent you the reference to the Burns Chronicles of 1937 which contains the letter from Syme to Cunningham giving the details of his tour of Galloway with Burns in 1793.
The dates are important.
They set out on the 31st July 1973, were in St Mary's Isle on the 1st August and finished in Dumfries on the 2nd August.

Thomas Muir was arrested on the 30th July in Portpatrick and taken to Stranraer where "he was kept for several days till a communication was made to the Crown Lawyers of Edinburgh, from whence a messenger-at-arms was immediately despatched for him and, in his custody, as a prisoner, Mr. Muir was taken to Edinburgh early in August 1793". (Peter Mackenzie, 1831, The life of Thomas Muir .."

Muir was "kept for several days" after 30th July by which time Burns' tour of Galloway was well and truly over. It would take time for news to get from Stranraer to Edinburgh and the for transport to get back to Stranraer.

I didn't mean to enter into the discussion as to why, where and when Burns wrote Scots Wha Hae as related in the first (1938) reference I gave, I think Burns answered that himself in his letter to Thomson.
Syme and Currie told lies as was explained in the 1938 Burns Chronicles.

I was merely pointing out that the idea Burns was in Gatehouse of Fleet at the same time as Muir passed through was incorrect.

Burns couldn't just have gone back from Dumfries later, as a trip to Gatehouse of Fleet in those days was not easy, in fact it was part of his "tour of Galloway" and anyway he wouldn't have known when the carriage with the manacled Muir would pass through.

It is a good story and a nice thought, though incorrect, but I'm sure Burns was aware of Muir and his song was definitely influenced by him and the times.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish songs +Thomas Muir of Huntershill
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 09:54 AM

Sorry, that last GUEST poting was me; I'm on another computer and didn't set my login details.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish songs +Thomas Muir of Huntershill
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 11:28 AM

Here are some of the 'Thomas Muir' books available- I think there are more, please add if you know of any? (I've read some but not all of these!)
There are display panels and a bust of him in Bishopbriggs Library and a replica in The Museum of Australian Democracy in Canberra.
Also various etchings/paintings of him - alas I think all based on his appearance after the horrific facial injuries he sustained while endeavouring to return to Europe after escaping from Australia.

2016 Thomas Muir of Huntershill Essays for the Twenty First Century
      (Friends of Thomas Muir) paperback ISBN 978-1-84622-051-7

2014 The Liberty Tree / Murray Armstrong ISBN 978-0-9927392-2-5

2012 The Democrat/Olly Wyatt historical novel ISBN978-0-9573918-0-2

2015 A Handful of Rogues / Hector MacMillan ISBN1902831896

1981 Muir of Huntershill / C Bewley

1976 History is my Witness / editor G. Menzies

1975 Thomas Muir of Huntershill 1765-99/ M. Donnelly

1969 The Scottish Martyrs / F. Clune

1912 Scotland and the French Revolution / H. Meikle


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish songs +Thomas Muir of Huntershill
From: Jim McLean
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 12:01 PM

The one I quoted from:
1831 The life of Thomas Muir ...." Peter Mackenzie.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish songs +Thomas Muir of Huntershill
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 05:06 PM

Thanks Jim -- every additional piece of information is welcome!
Unfortunately with a mind as scatty as mine I read then promptly forget things - do retain the emotion but keep having to rely on others with more disciplined minds / better memories to keep me right/correct me when I get it wrong!
- How did you come to write your song - when did you first learn about Thomas Muir? It really is shocking how little the general population knows about him and the other Martyrs, how they stood up for what was right.
Looking at political situations in my lifetime it is depressing how far we still have to go. Tho I wonder if it has ever been quite as farcical as right now?!
- I am so glad that The Friends of Thomas Muir was set up and has grown (check website and facebook page) -- and all due to the original efforts of John Watson, Davie Waterson and Don Martin, then John's son Jimmy becoming involved.

- Have just found there is another book to add to the list, by John Earnshaw (don't know date) and I've come across a poem (song?) composed in 1837... perhaps a tune cold be put to it? Might take me a while to transcribe it and post on mudcat tho----


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish songs +Thomas Muir of Huntershill
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 14 Oct 18 - 10:52 AM

still hoping to find mention of Thomas Muir or any of the other Scottish Martyrs in other songs or poems? - He was in France just about the time of the guillotining of Louis XVI, then went to Ireland /Dublin to meet with the United Irishmen, was made a member---
After his trial he was transported to Australia (near what would become Sydney? Botany Bay perhaps?)
He returned to France after the adventures of his escape, died of his injuries and was buried there
- Just in case his name appears in any songs or poems from those countries?


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