BS: Indicating (turn signals)

Subject: BS: Indicating
From: Thompson
Date: 01 Dec 18 - 04:59 AM

Drivers, at what point do you put on your indicator - how long before you turn?

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Dec 18 - 05:06 AM

Good question Thompson. If I'm approaching the junction to turn left into our village road, and someone is waiting to emerge, I indicate rather early so they realise they can come out and not wait for me to pass.
I suppose I indicate 'in good time' so as not to annoy those behind me.
This depends on the speed and the road conditions.

I think indicating far too early can cause misunderstandings.

I always indicate going round a roundabout, and indicate that I'm leaving it. This gives people the chance to enter the roundabout and not be waiting for me to carry on round.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Dec 18 - 05:33 AM

I don't believe I have any definite rules. In a built up area I try not to indicate until the road I want to turn down is the one coming up but in some areas there may be only 10 metres from one side road to the next, and then it is probably better to indicate slightly 'too early'. On motorways I typically indicate around the second countdown marker to the exit. Changing lanes indication is entirely about intention and it could be a minute before anyone lets me on. If it goes above a minute or so, I tend to cancel. However, if I am stuck in a lane queueing for an exit but I want to carry on, I will signal more or less indefinitely.

So in short, it all depends...

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Dec 18 - 06:06 AM

I never go on any motorways now (none in Norfolk thank goodness!) but years ago, while Prison Visiting, I was condemned to navigating that blooming M25, among many others. That was Hairy. Every few minutes everyone changes lanes to allow drivers to join from the left. Then drifts back again, only to perform the same manoeuvre a few miles further on.
No-one seemed to take a blind bit of notice of my indicators and just kept grimly speeding forwards. I was often nearly the meat in a sandwich of two huge container lorries.
Never again!

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 18 - 06:51 AM

I indicate only when I judge that my change of direction will affect someone. Otherwise, I don't do it. On motorways, there's generally no point signalling to move back in if you've just overtaken someone. You're going faster than them so your move back in won't affect them. At roundabouts I signal if it isn't clear from my position that I'm turning right. There's little point in signalling to turn left, and signalling that you're leaving the roundabout can be confusing, unless it's at one of those great bit big horrible ones such as the one at Exeter services.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating
From: Jos
Date: 01 Dec 18 - 07:56 AM

As a pedestrian, I often find it doesn't occur to drivers that I might find it useful to know if they are going to turn and, if so, in which direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating
From: Charmion
Date: 01 Dec 18 - 08:41 AM

I always signal when changing lanes, even if I think I have the whole motorway to myself — I could be wrong. It’s habit, based on the assumption that any safety measure should be automatic so you do it correctly when under stress. (There’s a military maxim for this: “Train as you will fight, because you will fight as you trained.”)

When turning, I signal about 50 metres from the turn, or as soon as my turn is the next opportunity, whichever is closer.

When backing out of a parking space, I signal to show which way I intend to swing the arse end of the car.

I signal left (right in Britain and Ireland) when leaving a parallel parking spot to pull into traffic.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Dec 18 - 08:53 AM

Lack of indication is indicative of lack of concentrtion

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Dec 18 - 09:09 AM

I have driven a little this morning since reading this thread, so was perhaps more alert to how people signal than I would otherwise. It was surprising how often at roundabouts you could not tell whether the person on the roundabout was intending to exit immediately or carry on to the second or third exit.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Dec 18 - 10:27 AM

Hope y'all don't mind that I made the thread title bilingual.

We Americans are quite religious about our right to save electricity by not using turn signals. We prefer to use extended middle fingers after-the-fact, if another driver does not respond as we expected. I'm usually pretty good about using turn signals to indicate I'm going to turn or change lanes. I usually shoot for five or ten seconds, whatever is necessary to let other drivers know what I'm planning to do.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: DaveRo
Date: 01 Dec 18 - 10:46 AM

Charmion wrote: ...any safety measure should be automatic...

A good principle. I was taught that on a 'defensive driving' course once. (My employer was taken over by a US oil services company who were - creditably - very safety conscious and they made it a condition of having a company car.) If you only indicate when you think someone will be affected, you may be wrong.

My last couple of cars (that covers 15 years) had a feature whereby if you started signalling left, say, to change lanes, and aborted the move, you couldn't cancel the signal before 3 flashes - except by signalling right. I think this is dangerous: you can alarm the driver into whose lane you intended to move by continuing to signal, or the driver who is overtaking you. I always disable this feature.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 18 - 10:58 AM

If you don't KNOW exactly how your driving is affecting other road users, it's your defective driving that you need to address. The commonest manifestation of this is the driver who dawdles along for miles, causing a convoy to build behind him, unaware of the issue because he never looks in the mirror. Another manifestation is the driver who, on waiting to turn right, does not pull into the correct position so as to allow traffic to pass on the inside.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: DaveRo
Date: 01 Dec 18 - 11:03 AM

You cannot know how your driving will affect a vehicle that you haven't seen. You cannot know the intentions of the drivers of the vehicles you have seen.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 18 - 11:28 AM

No, but but we should be aware of everything that's around us. We can't see round corners but we have a 360-degree view of what's going on, what with our mirrors and eyesight and neck muscles. One of the best driving defence mechanisms is to maintain a good distance from other road users. If you're being tailgated you can either let the idiot pass or you can open up the gap in front.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Dec 18 - 12:25 PM

If you are in a BMW you never need to indicate :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: Iains
Date: 02 Dec 18 - 07:54 AM

I would have no problem with all drivers requiring a defensive driving course every 5 years. Professional qualifications increasingly require continuing professional development, skilled machinery operators require their skills to be revalidated at regular intervals. Labouring on a building site requires a safety certificate in many countries. A car is a lethal weapon in careless hands, and don't get me started on 17 year olds driving a tractor and trailer with a MAM of 31ton on public roads. Compulsory retraining should be accompanied by a medical and eyesight test. The issue of indicating is akin to the issue of daytime driving lights. It is exclusively for the benefit of other drivers around you. The regulations concerning indicator use is quite clear. You owe a duty of care to other road users to obey them.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Dec 18 - 08:54 AM

How do I know who needs to see my turn signal? so my rule is that I use turn signals for those I can not see. 6-8 seconds of duration is enough with an occasional 3 blink forewarning.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 18 - 08:58 AM

I agree about regular retesting. But it should be the whole driving test, including the theory, and it should be expected that increased experience and confidence would be demonstrated. The eyesight criteria should be tightened up, too, and night driving could be included (admittedly not easy in summer!)

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: Thompson
Date: 02 Dec 18 - 10:25 AM

The Sandman is right that lack of indications suggests lack of attention.

But I also think it could be added to the list of signs that you’re a psychopath. After all, not indicating - or indicating so late that it’s meaningless - is surely utter self-centredness.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Dec 18 - 12:05 PM

My Bro-in-Law was a traffic cop in Cambridgeshire Constabulary, covering the A1, A14 and M11 much of the time, before he moved to Canada and joined the Toronto PD, where he drives a Police Cruiser during the winter and is a 'Chips' Harley-rider during the summer. His professional opinion is that, far from drivers not signalling sufficiently, there is generally far too much of what he calls 'signal-clutter', with drivers signalling inappropriately, causing distraction and confusion for other road users.

He's a strong proponent of 'defensive driving' (which, of course, traffic-officers are trained in in the UK) and, like Iains and Steve, he's a believer in periodic re-testing of all drivers, as well as restrictions on newly-qualified drivers.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Dec 18 - 12:20 PM

I try to use indicators whether or not there is anyone around, to maintain it as a habit. As a rule I try to signal three 'clicks' before I make my move. I observe whether other drivers use theirs and judge them by it, along with whether or not they wobble between lanes.

Yesterday I was parking in the Costco lot and observing how many cars have their back-up lights on without moving. One Subaru just sat there with backup lights on but no motion. Sometimes this is a sign of remote starting but not in this case. The 'driver' was just sitting there. By the time I'd found an open spot to park and was out and navigating the icy pavement, this man had backed out and approached the area where he had to turn into moving exit flow, but he paused and just sat there. As I walked past him I could see that he was looking into his lap and punching onto a typepad. He was calculating or texting.

So it is important to me that folks are using their automobile controls and if they are not I wonder what they are using.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 02 Dec 18 - 06:26 PM

I live in a small country town in Scotland) where it is wise not to act on anyone else's signal - as they often do something different! eg if I am waiting at a junction to turn left onto the main drag and another car is approaching from the right, indicating that they are about to turn left into the road I am exiting -- they might not actually do this but continue on the main drag! And it would be my fault if I pulled out in front of them -- -
You get similar situations with people indicating to go right - then turning left, or continuing on -- -
So - NEVER assume the signaller will do what they are indicating!
(some locals stay on our side of the water, only drive in our peninsula / country area - never cross by ferry to the 'mainland' which has traffic lights, roundabouts, motorways and worse - bus lanes and worst of all - a bus gate in Glasgow that has made an absolute fortune for the city fathers catching people out with automatic fines via the cameras!
-- We do have a couple of mini roundabouts in our town - - and it is so funny to see three or even four cars sitting one at each   entrance, none of them understanding who should go/or who should have gone!
Mind you we do get our own back on you sophisticated city drivers when it comes to night driving in the country - no street lights, or single track roads- - country folk are pretty cool about those scenarios!

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Dec 18 - 06:39 PM

I was driven in a modern Mini where the indicators would turn off if the wheel hadn't turned after three flashes, or it had turned but the car was stationary, or because the designer had some other algorithm that couldn't read the traffic.

That's the problem with so called refinements, the real world is a damn sight more complex than even a team can come up with.

And drivers become inured with the features until they are not there. Then the problem compounds. Like self-driving cars. The attendant behind the wheel cannot react fast enough to analyse the situation, and anyway after a mile or so their attention wanders way more than if they were really in charge. The Uber death, and the Tesla death demonstrate that all to succinctly.

And the average drive ain't that clever with simple things like indicators. Ask any perfect motorists..............

like me...............

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 18 - 07:43 PM

I'm with Gallus Moll when it comes to confusing signalling and routinely mistrusting others' signalling. And wot John sez chimes with what I believe to be advice to police drivers, which is to reduce signalling to an absolute minimum. It is far safer to challenge other drivers, thereby keeping them alert, by cutting down signalling than it is to signal excessively and confuse everybody. The worst bad signalling I see is at roundabouts and on motorways during lane-changing manoeuvres.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Dec 18 - 08:11 PM

There was a Tesla that suddenly braked on a highway because it predicted an accident between the two cars ahead of it. This technology is already being abused by people who want their cars to drive them while they are busy, drunk, or both.

The autodrivers will take over in the not-too-distant future and it will become more expensive to drive a vehicle because one will need special insurance which costs a lot more. And then it will get more difficult to find a car with a steering wheel.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: Gurney
Date: 02 Dec 18 - 10:07 PM

I seem to remember from when I skimmed the Road Code before setting off here in NZ that the suggestion was 'At least six seconds.'

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: BobL
Date: 03 Dec 18 - 03:01 AM

I remember being asked during my driving test, would I indicate before pulling out to overtake a stationary vehicle. My answer was "not necessarily": a driver behind me might think I was about to turn right, and prepare to pass me on the nearside - which would guide them into the back of the parked car. The examiner just nodded, so I guess I gave the correct answer, or at least one that showed I was thinking. Anyway, I passed the test.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: Thompson
Date: 03 Dec 18 - 03:24 AM

Three clicks is in no way enough. On my bicycle I’ve been dangerously T-boned by three-clickers who swerved into my path.

For drivers, of course, the most monstrous psychos of selfishness are those who wait in a lane that can be either a turn or straight ahead, not signaling so it appears they’re going straight, then when the light changes, turn on their indicator, leaving the drivers queued behind them weeping with rage.

I was driving a few days after changing cars, some years ago, and signaled left when I was going right. When my passenger told me I explained that the indicator stick was on the opposite side of the wheel and I couldn’t remember which way it went. “It always goes the same direction as you’re going to turn the driving wheel,” he said. Eureka!

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 18 - 03:28 AM

In the UK the highway code is quite clear as to the use and minimum duration of signals.
Rule 103: Drivers and riders should make proper Highway Code signals to warn nearby traffic that you are intending to change course or direction. This includes providing directional information of your intended motions to other road users and pedestrians. Motorists should always:

    Give clear signals and use direction indicators in plenty of time.
    Check it is not misleading to signal at the time.
    Use signals to advise other road users before changing course, direction, stopping or moving off.
    Cancel the signalling devices after use.
    Apart from using direction indicators, there are other ways you can give signals. Use an arm signal to other road users to emphasize or reinforce the signalling from the vehicle if necessary.

and
Lane discipline
133
If you need to change lane, first use your mirrors and if necessary take a quick sideways glance to make sure you will not force another road user to change course or speed. When it is safe to do so, signal to indicate your intentions to other road users and when clear, move over.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: Senoufou
Date: 03 Dec 18 - 03:47 AM

I was very lucky to have had an excellent driving instructor. He had been an RAF driver of huge military vehicles before resuming civilian life after retirement.

He told me never to trust anyone's signal, but to wait a split second longer until their road position verified their indication. So if, for example, someone is indicating they are about to leave a roundabout, one should watch their road position and only join the roundabout when their front end is obviously heading off to their left.

He always reinforced the 'all round awareness' rule, as Steve explains above. One should always 'know' who/what is in front, behind and to the side before indicating a manoeuvre.

My old father (here we go again!) used to maintain that everyone's character comes out in their driving habits. One sees impatient people, bullies, timid mice, indecisive folk, show-offs and risk-takers everywhere on the roads. And there aren't all that many steady, calm, confident, considerate, tolerant, responsible people about.

I'm really proud to state that my lovely husband is all of those things and is a superb, safe driver.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Dec 18 - 04:52 AM

I taught a lass to drive 25 years ago. She had a couple of lessons with a driving school before taking her test. They advised speedier decisions/getaways at junctions, the modern thinking being to get traffic moving. My thought was the interpretation was too swift, even if the intention was more appropriate to today. And the test proved me right.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: Senoufou
Date: 03 Dec 18 - 06:30 AM

Do you know Mr Red, my husband failed his first driving test due to being 'overly cautious'. His instructor was furious. I'm no expert, but there's a vast difference between 'hesitant' and 'prudent'.

His second test was a great success, no faults whatsoever and praise from the examiner.
When he got out of the car at the end of the test, he did a lovely African dance of triumph in front of everybody. And I joined in too. We must have looked right dollies, but we didn't care!

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: G-Force
Date: 03 Dec 18 - 07:17 AM

On motorways, there's generally no point signalling to move back in if you've just overtaken someone. You're going faster than them so your move back in won't affect them.

I used to think that too. Then I read that in some countries e.g. Spain it's illegal not to do it. So now I always do it, thinking there must be a reason for it, and anyway it doesn't hurt, does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 18 - 07:32 AM

On motorways, there's generally no point signalling to move back in if you've just overtaken someone.
But the UK highway code clearly states: signal to indicate your intentions to other road users and when clear, move over.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: KarenH
Date: 03 Dec 18 - 07:41 AM

I remember having an adult with weak reading skills coming to classes to improve his chances of passing the theory part of the test. He stubbornly would not believe what I told him about the order of colours on traffic lights. (There must have been something about this in some of the reading material.) I had to take him out into town to watch some real traffic lights change before he would believe me. No idea whether he passed or not, hope if so his alcohol consumption before driving was lower than before coming to class!

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: DaveRo
Date: 03 Dec 18 - 07:46 AM

Reaons for signalling when moving into a slower lane, include:
- the vehicle you've just overtaken might be contemplating speeding up
- a vehicle might be coming up a sliproad that you haven't noticed because of the lorries you've just overtaken
- a vehicle coming up behind you might be able to avoid a risky manouvre
- black BMWs that are 'undertaking' the vehicle you've just overtaken (particulaly on the A12 in East London)

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 18 - 09:29 AM

There's no point signalling if your intended move isn't going to affect or surprise anyone. You should be 100% aware of everything going on around, including slip roads and undertaking. There's too much signalling on motorways and there's a lot of uncancelled signalling too. Road noise drowns out the ticking and you're not cornering so there's no self-cancelling. If there's no-one to signal to I'm not going to signal. There are reasons why the Highway Code can't say things like that. The Highway Code is belt and braces and it will never say "just use your common sense."

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: BobL
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 02:42 AM

If there's no-one to signal to I'm not going to signal.
And, indeed, students of Advanced Driving are taught exactly that.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 07:52 AM

"If there's no-one to signal to I'm not going to signal."

"And, indeed, students of Advanced Driving are taught exactly that."

As are Police Traffic Officers (whose training is Advanced Driving plus considerably more).

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 08:14 AM

That sounds like advice to the all seeing omniscient.
Unfortunately one can never see everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 10:01 AM

The one that gets me is people who signal right on roundabouts, but who are not going right, but straight on! (And then cut in front of you across lanes to make their exit.)

See Highway code section 186:
This section of the Highway Code explains the signals and positions required to exit a roundabout safely. Follow the rules and you will find maneuvering roundabouts to be much less stressful.

When taking the first exit (unless signs and markings indicate otherwise):
Signal left and approach the exit in the left hand lane
Keep to the left on the roundabout and signal left to leave

When taking an exit to the right or going full circle (unless signs or markings indicate otherwise):
Signal right and approach the exit in the right hand lane
Keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to reach your exit
Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you intend to take

When taking any intermediate exit (unless signs or markings indicate otherwise):
Select the appropriate lane on approach to the roundabout
Stay in the lane until you need to alter your lane to exit
Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want to take

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 04 Dec 18 - 01:46 PM

And just to prove my point, a friend had an accident on a roundabout this very afternoon, when some numpty tried to cross lanes from right to left and exit left!

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 09:28 AM

- black BMWs that are 'undertaking' the vehicle you've just overtaken (particulaly on the A12 in East London)

All BMWs must be suspected until proven otherwise. Though I would, perhaps, pay more attention to red BMWs - something to do with assertive/aggressive associations paired with colours.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: Newport Boy
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 09:51 AM

It's Volvos that are the problem. As a rider of BMW bikes, the cartoon that generated most laughter showed a crossroads with a Volvo gently spinning on it's roof in the centre. One one exit was a BMW bike, the driver turned to look back and saying "Sorry mate, I didn't see you!"

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: Charmion
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 10:57 AM

Ha ha ha ha, NB!

I still have nightmares about the German guy (on a BMW bike, by the way) who thought it a good idea to overtake both me, in a Volkswagen Beetle (in the fast lane on the Autobahn), and a convoy of five French Army three-ton trucks (in the slow lane) by riding the dotted line. I signalled my intention to pull in front of the lead three-tonner and cranked my head around to check behind me on the right (as one does), and saw the idiot right in my blind spot, in position to be slammed into the truck's front bumper.

I did not hit him, thanks be to God. I stayed in my lane and let him shoot past, leaving my Beetle and the French convoy in his dust. I was badly frightened, and at the next opportunity I pulled off to calm down. The biker was there, with his helmet off, presumably also recovering from the near miss. I got out of the car and gave him a piece of my mind in every language I could think of, and he meekly stood and took it.

The French Army had those trucks governed at a maximum 90 kilometres per hour, and they always travelled in packs, provoking other drivers into sometimes unwise manoeuvres to get around them. I still wonder how many overtaking incidents could be laid at their door.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: Charmion
Date: 05 Dec 18 - 11:06 AM

Further to the discussion of roundabouts:

In Kitchener-Waterloo, a regional municipality in southwestern Ontario, the Bright Idea Fairy struck with an apparently random sprinkling of roundabouts on suburban arterial roads. Not all the local drivers are clear on the concept of getting on and getting off these things, so we have a rolling dither of pick-up trucks and small SUVs all trying to escape the circle on the first try while staying out of each others' way.

It's a mystery to me why one of these roundabouts is located at the entrance of the municipal dump. I have never seen any vehicle ever take the exit to the dump; everyone goes in on the south side and out on the north, or vice versa. I suspect a sweetheart contract might be in the mix ...

Subject: RE: BS: Indicating (turn signals)
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Dec 18 - 09:37 AM

I wouldn't consider the UK instructions clear. "In good time" is a broad church - it would be interpreted very differently by different people. I'd like to know if you should signal 10 metres before or 20 metres before.

As for the craze for hasty decisions, it's absolutely stupid. The wife of a friend was crushed by a learner driver as she cycled on a back road she'd chosen for her route because she'd meet few drivers. The L-driver had mixed up accelerator and brake and stamped on the wrong one.