Best Guitar for UK folk club?

Subject: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Jim Moran
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 06:10 AM

OK. British folk music club. A room - usually in a pub - which holds 80ish people. No amplification. I want a guitar that will fill the room when playing a solo instrumental. That reponds well to finger and plectrum style. Price? Well, let’s say A) under £1000, and B) favorite choice of guitars - regardless of price - that you’ve owned/played.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 06:18 AM

(B) Any of my Chisholm guitars (custom made in Ditchling, Sussex). More practically, a Lowden - guaranteed to fill a room acoustically with clarityand projection from bass to treble. IMO of course...

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Liamtho
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 06:35 AM

My Taylor GS Mini is easily transportable, very loud and not too pricy at around £500

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 06:46 AM

The 'best' guitar is the one YOU like best.

People will come on here telling you what they like best. But that may not be what you like best. The best advice is that you get around a lot of music stores, try lots of guitars, and buy the one that you like best which falls within your budget.

FWIW, and whilst I agree with Will about Lowdens (I have two), you're not going to find one under £1k. You can get a used one for between £1k - £2k, but under £1k? Nah, it's not going to happen.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Liamtho
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 08:06 AM

Agreed Backwoodsman but I assumed that Jim was looking for a selection of guitars to try out.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 08:21 AM

I would agree with Will about the Lowdens being the clearest and loudist both in front of and behind the player BTW I don't have one but would like one but too expensive.
. I find a Martin 00016 parlor guitar does very well at smaller venues and is reasonable to carry

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 08:33 AM

I'm often surprised at the good build quality and sound of some of the sub-$1200 guitars from Martin and Taylor. Canadian Seagulls give a lot of bang for the buck also. As noted above, though, even in this age of CNC uniformity it comes down to the individual instrument. I have a 000-17 Martin that I got for around 1200 and it's tone and playability inspire me to play it almost as much as my more expensive guitars.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 08:51 AM

I'm not an acoustic player,
but I am aware Faith guitars have a good reputation for quality at a fair price.
They are a Barnes & Mullins British brand manufactured in the far east,
possibly given final set up and inspection in the UK,
and probably fairly well distributed to try out in shops...

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 09:19 AM

Gillymor - Jim's apparently a UK-er, and has mentioned an upper limit to his budget of £1,000. Remember that American guitars cost, in the UK, roughly the same number of £'s as the number of $'s you'd pay in the US. So a $1,200 guitar would cost around £1,200 ($1,500-1,600) here. No 'Deep Discounts' in the UK guitar retailers' stores (or even from UK on-line dealers.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 10:32 AM

depends how big the room is.
what else is going on inside,
have a look round. see if theres anyone else doing what you want to do.

try the guitar. if it feels all right. get one like that.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 10:41 AM

My original reply about the Lowden was aimed at Jim's part B of the post:

B) favorite choice of guitars - regardless of price - that you’ve owned/played.

But Lowden's are pricey - I was lucky to get a s/h one recently - in perfect condition for its 23 years - for under £2,000.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 10:41 AM

Thanks for that info, BWM, I was vaguely aware of that situation over there but just putting in my 2 cents. Yamaha used to make some decent-sounding affordable acoustics but I'm not sure of the availability in that neck of the woods.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Jim Moran
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 10:43 AM

Well, we've establish one thing. Lowden's are loud'ins.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 11:23 AM

If considering a good cheaper 2nd hand Yamaha - all your local region Cash Converters are worth a look...

Grab 'em off the wall and try 'em...

Pricing can be a bit variable depending on optimism/stubbornness of each shop's sales staff,
how much they know about guitars,
or how much effort they put into googling about them...

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 12:07 PM

I have a guitar which fits the bill exactly. I cost me £190 and its a Martin. Unfortunately, that was in 1974 and it’s now 2019.

Seriously, ask 100 guitarists what the best guitar is and you’ll likely get 100+ answers. At that price point, the only way to find one will be to traipse around umpteen dealers but don’t expect something that you like in the shop to fit the bill once you get it in a large room. Guitars etc. sound different in different environments.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 01:01 PM

I'm not a guitarist. Well, not a good one! But lots of Yamahas are in evidence at folk clubs. One of my lads plays an APX-4 and that has the added advantage that you can plug it into an amp should the need arise.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,bignige
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 03:39 PM

Your wasting your time playing in room with 80 people in it without amplification. Sure you can hear the guitar but the immediacy that an acoustic guitar must have is gone. I would get a small battery powered acoustic amp and run your guitar through that. It doesn't need to be powering out just lift the sound to a point where listening is not strained.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Fyldeplayer
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 04:13 PM

Where is this fabled folk club room of 80 people - average around here is 25-30!
Take someone with you when trying. My friend bought a Sigma as back up for his Martin ( I can't tell the sound difference ). 3 same models in shop all slightly different, that's wood for you! I have liked the sound recently from Lowdens, Taylor's and Faith. Richards guitars in Stratford on Avon seem to offer a wide range. My Martin works well for gigs, use a tweak of small amp and my Recording King ROS16 is great for tight rooms and has a great thawk when pulled hard.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 05:28 PM

80 people without amplification? I remmeber sitting at the back of the audience for a live broadcast by John Williams. One musician, one nylon strung guitar, no amplification, 400+ in the audience and you could hear every note.

Everyone’s netting nesh. Folk clubs didn’t have amplification when I started!

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Jim Moran
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 05:47 PM

I didn't say that there was an audience of 80, I just mentioned a room that could hold 80 people. As you know, all that empty space has an effect on the room's acoustics, and this should me taken into consideration when deciding which guitar to buy.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 07:14 PM

After a long conversation with Roger Bucknall, he is a great lover of Yamahas, and so am I. In my experience for open tunings you can't beat a Fylde, but for regular tuning and a decent price, it's Yamaha every time. The Yamaha rosewood laminates are as good as some makers solid wood efforts for the sides. Look upon a Yam as raw material. Change the saddle for bone, the tuners for Grovers, and the end pegs for brass, and listen to it sing. With Martins, Gibsons and Taylors all you are paying for is the name on the headstock IMHO. Sorry!

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 05:40 AM

i've got several yamahas.
you can get a solid rosewood. mine is the llx16bl, which cost about 650. and the Ac3r has rosewood back and sides - all solid wood.

which with your thousand quid budget should leave money for the posh machine heads. thats something i hadn't considered.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Jim Moran
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 05:49 AM

Eastman acoustic guitars seem to attracting good reviews. Has anybody out there come into contact with these guitars?

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: banjoman
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 06:22 AM

My Lakewood would fit the bill but most of my others (Taylor, Ovation, Washburn etc.) and my range of banjos.
Its really a case of what you like.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 07:18 AM

Yam LLx16 looks nice. They have stopped making them though. No doubt there will be one around somewhere. I quite like the look of the sunburst.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Liamtho
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 07:43 AM

Sometimes I use a Larrivee L-09 loud and a nice even volume low to high - always a bit scared it might get nicked though.....

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 02:03 PM

As I said, ask 100 guitarists .......

I would agee that todays Martin and Gibson guitars (never really rated Taylor) have been overtaken by cheaper options which is why, in more recent years, I’ve always opted for the boutique builders. (I’ll have to admit it, for me, available space is more of a problem than price)

As for Yamaha, there are Yamahas and Yamahas. (I started with one of the old red label FG180s. Laminated (plywood) top and, if I hadn’t sold it and if the bloke I sold it to hadn’t stood on it whilst it was propped against the back of the stage, I expect it would have sounded the same today as when I bought it for £27 10s in 1970.)

There is the APX range. It’s their cheapo option; I think they all have electronics, and I’ve never played one acoustically that I’d give house room to. Then there was one I played at the trade show or, to be more accurate, I took out of its case as the rep was setting up his stand at a trade show. It had, clearly, not been out before. It was well set up, one of their hand built creations and I noticed that its serial number was actually No.1. I tuned it up and it sounded awful.

The last time I went out with someone to buy a “cheap” guitar he ended up with one from a maker I’d never heard of LAG. Good set-up, played nicely in tune all the way up the neck, good sound and plenty loud enough. Proves the point, at lower price points, ignore the names and use your ears.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,johnmc
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 04:55 PM

The best projection I have encountered (in pub sessions) is a solid Takemine, strummed
with a firm pick but good in fingerstyle too. Second hand should be possible.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,GuestRS
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 05:03 PM

The Yamaha 800 series are spectacularly good for the price, the larger FG size would be the more powerful, volume-wise.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 07:51 PM

Interestingly, I owned a Sigma trade guitar, unbranded. It sounded OK and I played it one night at Pete Coe's club. Still reckon that a mid range Yam had the edge though. I also had a Levin for a while. Solid Top and Brazilian rosewood back and sides. It was OK, but was soon sold on. I use a Yamaha FG 365SE bought new in 1983 nowt to beat it.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 01:35 AM

Levins were nice.

The llx16 feels a bit like I remember them.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 02:22 AM

"My original reply about the Lowden was aimed at Jim's part B of the post:

B) favorite choice of guitars - regardless of price - that you’ve owned/played. "

My apologies Will, that went straight over my head. Duh!
All understood now.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 03:37 AM

No worries, BW!

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 04:28 AM

It'd be tricky to play fingerstyle unamplified to an 80-person room. Maybe if you're wearing those metal nail picks...

I find mahogany guitars with a satin finish project well. I have several acoustics, and if I was playing unamplified and really needed volume I would use either my Recording King ROS-616 all-solid mahogany (OM shape) or my Harley Benton CLP15M (parlour model, solid mahogany top, laminate mahogany back and sides). Both have a satin finish and are noticeably louder than other lacquered guitars I have, though the CLP15M isn't really for strumming, sounds quite boxy when strummed.

While mahogany guitars have a justifiable reputation for sounding 'dark' they paradoxically have a very clear tone, which carries and projects very well. Both of the guitars I cited are as loud as any Lowdens I've ever played.

I'm always a bit disappointed by rosewood backs and sides, I find spruce/mahogany or mahogany/mahogany a preferable combination. But that's just me.

My latest guitar acquisition is a 13-fret-to-body 'Nick Lucas' style parlour guitar by Recording King and is lovely.
https://www.guitarworld.com/gear/recording-king-introduces-greenwich-village-13-fret-acoustic-guitar
That would also do the job, only not as well as the previously mentioned guitars.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: beachcomber
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 06:44 AM

I recently bought a parlour size Harley Benson CLP -15M Custom Line, guitar. It has a Mahogany top and sides.
I was unable to do much actual shopping and bought it online instead. I did look up many alternatives and was able to hear a sound track of many of them from online links. From those, I selected the above instrument. I have to say that it's bass is not exactly as I expected, having heard the link soundtrack, sounding a good deal "thinner". Otherwise it is a very nice guitar.
(I assume that the 15M refers to the 15 frets to the body that it has ?)

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 07:12 AM

If you want more bass on that Harley Benton and you’re not too fussy about playing in concert pitch, try fitting 0.13-0.56 strings and detune them all down a tone.

The funny thing about mahogany guitars is that they can seem quite clear and trebly when you hit them hard but can sound very warm and bassy when you fingerpick them softly, using the flesh of your thumb for the bottom E string and picking with your right hand closer to the fretboard (as opposed to over the soundhole or near the bridge.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: beachcomber
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 07:54 AM

Awwwww , I have a friend for life. Matt, that is exactly what I wanted to know and why I entered this thread in the first place. Many thanks for your advice. I will be trying it out asap. Thanks again !

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 08:01 AM

Funny you should mention the Harley Benton.

I was looking at them before Christmas, but I got the Epiphone Sheraton in the end.

Their PRS copy is stunning. Bit too good to be true, I thought. Obviously not.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: beachcomber
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 09:45 AM

Big Al, yes I did wonder how "reliable" those soundtracks on the adverts are but, in fact , apart from the bass E the other strings do sound as good ,even without amplification, as the advert. Matt's solution is well worth a try, wouldn't you say ?
Supposing I was to change only the bass E string (for tension balance, perhaps the top E' also ) could that be a refinement of the solution that might work ?

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Geordie boy
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 10:14 AM

Try a Guild or a Faith for value and performance

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: beachcomber
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 10:28 AM

Parlour size guitars ?

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Jim Moran
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 11:08 AM

Would a palour sized guitar be anywhere near as loud as a dreadnought, or is "projection" an element that can top "loud".
The bluegrass boys talk about dreadnought"cannons" that are, so-called" "banjo killers".
I am talking about "loud" because, so often, in folk music clubs, I wish that I could turn up the voume on performers guitars by at least 50%. And, I swear, that extra 50% is the difference between holding the audiences attention...or not.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 11:25 AM

Don’t make the mistake of equating size to either volume or bass response. Two of my guitars (well three actually, but I digress) are by the same builder. One is a drednaught and the other an OM. The dred. is my go to guitar for sessions as it can compete with anything, however, the best bass response comes from the OM. As with other things (so I’m told) size doesn’t really matter.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 11:27 AM

I should add that the dred is strung with mediums and the OM with lights.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 12:31 PM

When talking about how and why guitars sound like they do, it's always interesting to read the articles by Ervin Somogyi. His guitars are visually and aurally stunning. I could never in a million years afford on - which doesn't bother me in the slightest - but the technical detail he brings to the theory behind design and build is fascinating to read. Some of these articles are well worth a read:

http://esomogyi.com/articles/

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Jim Moran
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 12:43 PM

Will, there is a nice series of interviews with guitar makers by Michael Watts on YouTube including an interesting one with Ervin Somogyi.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 12:44 PM

I could probably afford the £20,000 or so they generally go for but the marginal improvement in sound quality over the instruments I already own isn’t worth it; plus would I really want to drag one along to a local session?!

To may people, price seems to be a major issue. The way I think of it is that if you’re prepared to spend several thousand pounds for a car which you leave to rot away on the drive or street outside, why are you not prepared to spend a similar amount on a guitar which, over the same period, costs less to run, will improve with age and probably be worth more than you originally paid for it. I certainly know what I’d choose.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 12:44 PM

You want louder..

might be time to google "acoustic guitar with built in speaker"...

but then, there's always good old fashioned resonators..

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 02:48 PM

I'm not particularly bothered about Somogyi's instruments - it's really his ideas that I find interesting.

Thanks for the heads-up on the YouTube interviews, Jim - I'll check them out.

Subject: RE: Best Guitar for UK folk club?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 02:52 PM

my cars worth about £120.....given a generous offer.