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BS: If I were a remainer...
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 24 Mar 19 - 12:35 PM No I shouldn't hold your breath. my Views are my business. All educated opinion agrees with you. I'm sure that leaves no room for doubt. parading in the street is all very well. In 1967, I marched to Grosvenor Square against the Vietnam War - but I don't recollect, President Johnson giving a shit about our march Hey!Hey! LBJ!! How many kids did you kill today! my advice for what its worth is , stop pissing about with anguished hysterical types, precocious teenagers, etc - and organise a proper campaign with clever people who actually agree with you - rather than politicians who are just along for the ride. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Backwoodsman Date: 24 Mar 19 - 12:34 PM Sorry Dick, we haven't been asking for 'possibilities' - those fall into the category of 'hopes', 'aspirations', and 'waffle'. And, as members of the E.U., we already have, or the E.U. are currently negotiating on our behalf, extensive trade agreements with many countries, including China and a number of African countries. https://fullfact.org/europe/how-many-free-trade-deals-has-eu-done/ What Remainers here want to hear about are definite, solid, tangible benefits. The absolutely certain benefits that everyone will feel from day one, and which persuaded Leavers to vote Leave. So far, despite Raggy asking on many, many occasions, there's been nary a one. Why are we not surprised? |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 24 Mar 19 - 12:25 PM No, sorry Dick. You are still missing the point. Voting for a party on one single issue is an absurdity. Saying vote for the Lib Dems if you want to stay in Europe is as daft as saying vote UKIP if you want to leave. In my opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Iains Date: 24 Mar 19 - 12:21 PM "Then Thatcher introduced 'right to buy', which bribed votes on the estate." Simply not true, councils always had the right to sell their housing stock, providing permission was obtained from central government who supplied funding. Sales actually occurred from 1919. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 24 Mar 19 - 12:11 PM If ever there was a better time to give Northern Ireland back and be rid of all the disproportionate problems...????? Grant Dual British citizenship to all of them that want to insist on still being British, maybe even extended to the next generation of their children, as a generous concession. But otherwise tell them to bugger off and enjoy the benefits of being Irish with EU membership... Oh, of course.. it could never happen while the tories are forced to lick DUP arses... |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: The Sandman Date: 24 Mar 19 - 11:47 AM ok. here are some possibilities, benefits possibly for fishermen, possible free trade deals with africa china, total government from westminster. disadvantages, loss of ease of movement through europe,possible hard border between irelanmd and uk[ inc possible return to violence]possible loss of major agricultural supplier ireland, loss of european subsidies for northern ireland which means this econmic albatroos [n ireland] will have to be supported by the uk entirely |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Backwoodsman Date: 24 Mar 19 - 11:39 AM Seventy years? Ooooops, shoulda sed 'fifty'! |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Backwoodsman Date: 24 Mar 19 - 11:15 AM So, a couple of hours have passed since I asked for the Brexiteers' solid, tangible benefits from leaving, and still nothing except more waffle. The thing I feel most cheated by is that the Brexiteers voted Leave on the basis of...nothing but 'hopes' and 'aspirations'. Despite having lived for seventy years in prosperity, and at peace with our European neighbours, enjoying freedom to travel, work, and take their leisure within 27 countries without let or hindrance, enjoy the benefits to industry and commerce that simplified movement of goods and harmonisation of taxation- and banking-systems brings, and other benefits too numerous lo list here, those feeble-minded, dozy wallies voted for 'a hope'! So, those solid, tangible benefits - let's be hearing them. I won't hold my breath. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Backwoodsman Date: 24 Mar 19 - 11:03 AM Yep, correct pfr. Awkward things, facts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 24 Mar 19 - 10:42 AM This may be too personal and anecdotal for some here.. Therefore entirely deniable and dismisable... The council estate I grew up on was built to service the biggest factory in our small town. Real high quality post war solid building standards, with large front and back gardens. Jobs for life, good living conditions, and stability... Then Thatcher introduced 'right to buy', which bribed votes on the estate. Within a year factory working new home owners painted their front doors whatever colour they fancied to boast their individuality and new found status.. I'm alright Jack, eff U...!!! My parents were commited to the principles of council accomodation so stayed renters. Within another year or so, the factory was suddenly closed down and workers on the estate, my dad included, made redundant. The new 'middle class' home owners were no longer so cushy.. If I speculate on matters a generation ago, as best I remember... Many of those ex council house renters ended homeless in a town with little else employment or alternative social housing and their homes sold off at at auction. I can only guess how many high quality houses with big gardens ended up cheaply in the clutches of private landlords... Thatcher couldn't have planned that better...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Iains Date: 24 Mar 19 - 10:37 AM sovereignty! Something that many wars are fought over. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: The Sandman Date: 24 Mar 19 - 10:16 AM ian would you explain the advantages |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Iains Date: 24 Mar 19 - 09:53 AM Thatcher knew that mining and manufacturing were the strongholds of the union movement and that, to destroy the strength of the unions, she had to destroy that stronghold. Rubbish! Mining was in decline for decades as has been pointed out innumerable times on here and manufacturing was increasing. Producing far more valuable widgets with less people.(The only metric the economy is interested in https://ourworldindata.org/death-uk-coal https://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/02/22/manufacturing_figures/ Coal production had been in decline since around 1914, Manufacturing has gone from strength to strength post WW2 Awkward things facts. This is why certain remainiaccs never produce links. Links are can substantiate facts. Whimsy and opinion count for nowt. Of course the magnificent Thatcher showed the unions that governments run countries, not jumped up upstarts like the scallywag Scargill. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 24 Mar 19 - 09:45 AM And in what ways those reasons outweigh the judgment of the governor of the Bank of England, the TUC, the CBI, and other business organisations? |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 24 Mar 19 - 09:34 AM Get your act together and organise, if you want to win! Organise? You mean like a million people gathering to march in London? Or a petition that now tops 5 million signatures - whose originator had to leave the country due to death threats, which were telephoned to her personally? I'd like you guys not to feel cheated as you obviously do We British citizens who live in EU countries were not even allowed a vote on a matter which affects us so crucially. How would YOU feel if that had happened to you? ...she promised to deliver Brexit, and that's what the poor sod is doing her best to accomplish. There is a very real chance that the "poor sod" will drive us into a no-deal crashout. That scenario was not on the referendum ballot. Will you please, please, please tell us in what ways that would be good for Britain? This question keeps getting asked - and utterly ignored. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Backwoodsman Date: 24 Mar 19 - 08:47 AM No, your views are not an irrelevance, Al. But so far, despite Remainers giving many, many examples of the benefits of membership of the EU, and what will be lost if (and I do believe it's a case of 'if' now, not 'when' - fingers crossed I'm right) we leave, you Leavers have failed completely to tell us what will be gained. Raggy has asked, over and over again, on other threads, for our arch-Brexiteers to give us a few examples of how we will be better off - not airy-fairy, broad-brush waffle like "Stimulate the production of all sorts of things", but carefully considered, factual examples of solid, tangible benefits. There has been not one answer - at the best we've had silence, at the worst we got trolling, insults and abuse. Over the past three years, all you have given us is reasons for leaving based on your perception of ways the EU has 'wronged' us - all in the distant past, all incorrect. Your pet moans seem to be that the EU destroyed our fishing and manufacturing industries - both nonsense. The fishing industry - the real, serious, deep-sea industry that was the bedrock of the fishing business - was wrecked by Iceland's claiming sovereignty over waters far from its shores, a claim upheld by the International Court, and wrecked too by our own reckless and greedy over-fishing. Nothing to do with the EU, British fishing was already shot by the time we joined the EEC in 1973. The owners disposed of the fleets of Deep-Sea vessels, and once they had gone, they were never going to come back. Our manufacturing industries, along with mining, were the casualties of the dogmas of UK politicians and their own trade unions. I worked in an engineering company which was a major supplier of pit and coal-prep equipment in the '60s and '70s, and it was clear that the writing was on the wall all that time because of unions overstepping the mark (and I say that as a Union-member during those years) and, as we moved towards the '80s, because of the determination of the Thatcher regime to break the strength of the unions even though, in doing that, they wrecked manufacturing in this country. Thatcher knew that mining and manufacturing were the strongholds of the union movement and that, to destroy the strength of the unions, she had to destroy that stronghold. All down to the actions of politicians, aided and abetted by unions who chose to fight the system, here in the U.K. Bugger-all to do with that nasty Johnny Foreigner in the EEC. So yes, I feel cheated. I feel cheated by a tiny group of largely non-dom tax-dodgers who dreamed up Brexit in order to escape new Anti-Tax-Dodging Regulations, I feel cheated by a small group of lying politicians who danced to their tune played through the Right-Wing media they control, I feel cheated by bare-faced lies like '£350 million for the NHS', and 'immigrants are bankrupting the country", I feel cheated by sound-bites, and meaningless slogans like 'Take Back Control' (by which they meant 'give complete control to the same people who were quietly orchestrating the Leave campaign from their tax-havens), and I feel cheated by the people who allowed themselves to be sucked in by the lies, slogans, and sound bites, and voted to Leave the world's largest trading-bloc in which we hold a favoured position, which has made trade between its member states simple and straightforward, and which has given us seventy years of peace and prosperity. So...make me feel better, stop me from feeling cheated - take some time and give us those solid, tangible benefits we will all get from leaving. I can't wait for the good news because, God knows, I'm sick and tired of hearing waffle, sidestepping and being told that, because I voted Remain, I'm a 'Traitor who should be arrested, marched out and shot' from Brexiteers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 24 Mar 19 - 07:47 AM My views are an irrelevance and will stimulate the production of all kinds of things. The point is I'd like you guys not to feel cheated as you obviously do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Mar 19 - 06:54 AM Mm Loiseau must be a secret Mudcat watcher Thanks for that Jos Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Jos Date: 24 Mar 19 - 06:30 AM Jim, France's European Minister Nathalie Loiseau must be a Mudcat reader: RE: How many Mudcats have cats!? From: Donuel - PM Date: 19 Mar 19 - 06:01 AM our cat is named Brexit He meows to go out but when we open the door he just sits there undecided. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Will Fly Date: 24 Mar 19 - 06:20 AM I make no secret of my belief that we will be in the long term better off outside the EU. How? I'm really curious. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 24 Mar 19 - 05:48 AM Boycott....you've bowled me a googly there.... I don't think you're all being fair to the fragrant Theresa. After all she promised to deliver Brexit, and that's what the poor sod is doing her best to accomplish. What I've been saying in this thread is that it really is up to the remainers to cross party ally with each other and frustrate her and get your own way. She can't do this for you. Okay the Lib Dem idea doesn't appeal. So what idea does appeal? I think you've done everything that can be accomplished by being rude to me. Get your act together and organise, if you want to win! Its harder work than thinking up nasty things to say. But it may well be more productive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Mar 19 - 05:43 AM Nice 'quote of the week' in this morning's Sunday Times France's European Minister, Nathanlie Loieau, has said she's named her cat Brexit "She wakes me up at night mewling that she wants to go out, but when I get up to open the door she stay's where she is" Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: The Sandman Date: 24 Mar 19 - 05:04 AM I AGREE ,SHE SEEMS TO HAVE AN IDENTITY CRISIS SHE THINKS SHE IS GEOFF BOYCOTT WELL THIS IS NOT A GAME OF CRICKET |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: The Sandman Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:57 AM Further more i suspect that this is the beginning of the end of the empire known as the eu , a pity in lots of ways because it did offer some social democratic reforms, and i think for some considerable time, people in rural ireland are going to have a reduction in their living standards, because the country is agricultural and relies to a considerable extent on selling cheese[particularly cheddar ]milk and beef to the uk |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Backwoodsman Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:55 AM Try again... The reason that BrexShit is such an unmitigated disaster is because The Praying Mantis has steadfastly refused to make it a cross-party issue - until recently, when it became glaringly obvious even to an obstinate mutton-head like her that she had hit a brick wall due to her own obstinacy and mutton-headedness, she made no effort to construct a cross-party committee, or even ask the other parties for their input. She has been following the strict instructions of the tiny cadre of immensely-wealthy, predominantly non-dom, tax-dodgers who have driven this entire debacle since well before the referendum - hence the inexplicable obstinacy and mutton-headedness, even when things got to such a pitch that even a blind, dumb, deaf lunatic could detect and understand the message. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Backwoodsman Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:53 AM Sorry about the underlining - fecking HTML! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Backwoodsman Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:52 AM The reason that BrexShit is such an unmitigated disaster is because The Praying Mantis has steadfastly refused to make it a cross-party issue - until recently, when it became glaringly obvious even to an obstinate mutton-head like her that she had hit a brick wall due to her own obstinacy and mutton-headedness, she made no effort to construct a cross-party committee, or even ask the other parties for their input. She has been following the strict instructions of the tiny cadre of immensely-wealthy, predominantly non-dom, tax-dodgers who have driven this entire debacle since well before the referendum - hence the inexplicable obstinacy and mutton-headedness, even when things got to such a pitch that even a blind, dumb, deaf lunatic could detect and understand the message. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: The Sandman Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:48 AM no it is not silly, the liberal party is the most pro european , but owing to the uk voting system, they never get the seats that they proprtional to their votes should get. al has also made it clear he votes labour, als comment is not absurd, it is one that should be given consideration, al would not vote for ukip because he is not racist and probably opposesthe eu on the same grounds as denis skinner, these are also my objections to the EU, but because i live in ireland, i would now probably possibly, now vote remain, if i had a vote |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:33 AM Dick, it really is simple. Al suggested that remainers should vote LibDem. A silly suggestion as it brings everything down to one issue. I demonstrated the absurdity of it by suggesting leavers, such as Al, should vote UKIP. You seem to have picked up on how silly my suggestion was without commenting on the absurdity of Al's opening premise. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Backwoodsman Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:15 AM Shouldn't you be asking that question on FaceBook? |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Acorn4 Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:08 AM Why do so many of my Facebook friends seem to think there is something so incredibly left wing about the EU? |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: The Sandman Date: 24 Mar 19 - 03:20 AM If i were a remainer... I would sign the second referendum. I would stop making remarks such as why did you not vote for ukip[i am sure denis skinner did note vote for ukip] |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Backwoodsman Date: 23 Mar 19 - 07:33 AM Here's a perfect example of the depths some people - and it seems to be predominantly Right-Wingers - are prepared to stoop to. A remarkable young woman, the Leader of her nation, being threatened with murder because she upheld decency and humanity at a time of tragedy. And you wonder why people are finding it more and more difficult to discuss issues civilly and rationally? |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Backwoodsman Date: 23 Mar 19 - 05:38 AM Ah, the Theresa May Method of Communication - telling us what 'we' think or don't think. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Bonzo3legs Date: 23 Mar 19 - 05:35 AM Who cares, we are sick to death of it all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Mar 19 - 05:33 AM The US has declared that there will be no free trade agreement if Britain opts for a hard border Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Backwoodsman Date: 23 Mar 19 - 05:18 AM Well Al, there's nothing to disagree with here... and it's a good indicator of why debate has become so inflamed over the past few years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 22 Mar 19 - 10:18 PM Raggytash. I'm not a clever guy. Don't pretend to be. I've been insulted so much over brexit. That yes I avoid the conversations and arguments. I get fed up with being called a fool by people who are obviously not all that smart. Told the economics of a very complicated subject are simple - by people I wouldn't trust to open a jar of jam. I get fed up with both sides coming up with random facts obviously nicked from some partisan source. The idea behind this thread was to suggest maybe it would better to let the experts debate - at any rate take it away from the demagogues, off the streets. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Steve Shaw Date: 22 Mar 19 - 06:29 PM I'll do almost anything to keep the Tories out. Tory MPs, along with every bugger that has ever voted Tory, have screwed the ordinary working people of this country for decades. Hate the Tories, know thine enemy and kick the bastards out! Kick out the Tories! |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 22 Mar 19 - 05:32 PM I could only vote for LIb Dem if on all policy areas they adopted Labour Party policy to the letter. Voting for parties because of one single issue cannot then allow it to implement any other part of its manifesto without a plebicite that grants explicit consent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Raggytash Date: 22 Mar 19 - 04:39 PM Oh come Al, you open a thread entitled 'If I were a remainer ...' What do you expect. I do notice that one again my question 'how will the UK benefit' has been studiously avoided. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 22 Mar 19 - 04:35 PM Yes Steve my sister feels the same about the lib dems. Lives in the south west as well. The sense of betrayal is strong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 22 Mar 19 - 04:34 PM Raggytash. I don't want this thread to be about Brexit. I would like to see the remainers run a well organised , information based campaign express ing their point of view. I was at elijah Wolf's open mic about a couple of weeks ago. Elijah said, I don't give a shit about Brexit. But I've never known an issue so socially divisive. Coming out as a Brexiteer seems to be like an invitation to attack you.. The debate is so ill informed, as to be non-existent. But one thing, I believe is that political institutions and the laws that protect them is the forum it belongs rather than the sloganeering street fighters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Raggytash Date: 22 Mar 19 - 04:23 PM Big Al, Once again, 4 hours ago, I asked WHY people think the UK will be better off outside the EU. Once again no-one has put forward a reasoned argument for the benefits to the UK if we were to leave the EU. If there were OBVIOUS benefits to leaving the EU some of us might reconsider our position. Despite having asked this question on dozens of occasions, no-one but no-one has even attempted to provide an answer. Perhaps you could do the honours. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Donuel Date: 22 Mar 19 - 04:18 PM I make no secret that I believe Brexit is a Russian mission success and will continue to whittle down the eu. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Mar 19 - 02:47 PM "Another thread fucked. " Only if you respond to the lower orders Baccie Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 22 Mar 19 - 02:32 PM Wwell I don't want to get into the Brexit (good, or bad) debate.. I just think it would be good if we could contain the debate within democratic structures and take it out of the hands of abuse merchants. I wouldn't vote for Farage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Backwoodsman Date: 22 Mar 19 - 02:28 PM Another thread fucked. Cheers Al, at least you tried. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Iains Date: 22 Mar 19 - 01:59 PM Couple this with an economy in crisis I presume you mean France and Germany and Italy and............. and that should be plural,economies! The total deficit so far this financial year (since last April) was £23.1bn - a sizeable £18bn fall compared with the same period last year. The UK economy provided some unexpected positive news today as high street sales grew by more than anticipated and the public finances continued to outperform. Figures from the Office for National Statistics suggest the economy may be expanding at a better rate than expected. Someone been watching too much Podge and Rodge? Remainiac nonsense again |
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Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer... From: Jim Carroll Date: 22 Mar 19 - 01:25 PM As far as I can see from here the only thing that has changed in Parliamentary politics is the Labour is now making different promises If they live up to them I'd walk over broken glass to get to the polls - if not THIS FELLER HAS IT RIGHT Whatever the outcome of Brexit, after this now fully-admitted fiasco, it is doubtful if Parliament will ever win back the respect of the handful of people who once had it, leaving Britain with an extremely dangerous void which the rabid right will break its neck to fill Couple this with an economy in crisis and a divided nation, the parallels with pre-war Germany are inescapable Jim |
