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BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019

Donuel 15 Apr 19 - 01:15 PM
Donuel 15 Apr 19 - 01:54 PM
Jeri 15 Apr 19 - 02:02 PM
Backwoodsman 15 Apr 19 - 02:03 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Apr 19 - 02:58 PM
punkfolkrocker 15 Apr 19 - 03:05 PM
Donuel 15 Apr 19 - 03:22 PM
punkfolkrocker 15 Apr 19 - 03:27 PM
Donuel 15 Apr 19 - 03:28 PM
Stilly River Sage 15 Apr 19 - 03:45 PM
Stilly River Sage 15 Apr 19 - 03:51 PM
Donuel 15 Apr 19 - 03:58 PM
Donuel 15 Apr 19 - 03:59 PM
punkfolkrocker 15 Apr 19 - 04:33 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 15 Apr 19 - 07:20 PM
Donuel 15 Apr 19 - 07:25 PM
bobad 15 Apr 19 - 07:35 PM
Stanron 15 Apr 19 - 07:50 PM
Donuel 15 Apr 19 - 07:53 PM
Joe Offer 15 Apr 19 - 09:45 PM
Jeri 15 Apr 19 - 09:54 PM
Mossback 15 Apr 19 - 10:02 PM
robomatic 15 Apr 19 - 10:03 PM
Joe Offer 15 Apr 19 - 10:51 PM
Stilly River Sage 15 Apr 19 - 11:01 PM
robomatic 16 Apr 19 - 01:44 AM
The Sandman 16 Apr 19 - 03:00 AM
Mr Red 16 Apr 19 - 03:32 AM
Jim McLean 16 Apr 19 - 04:08 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 16 Apr 19 - 04:56 AM
The Sandman 16 Apr 19 - 05:05 AM
Donuel 16 Apr 19 - 06:12 AM
Nigel Parsons 16 Apr 19 - 06:16 AM
Jos 16 Apr 19 - 06:34 AM
Donuel 16 Apr 19 - 07:15 AM
Andy7 16 Apr 19 - 08:33 AM
punkfolkrocker 16 Apr 19 - 08:40 AM
bobad 16 Apr 19 - 08:48 AM
Donuel 16 Apr 19 - 08:54 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 16 Apr 19 - 09:00 AM
Mrrzy 16 Apr 19 - 09:57 AM
Jack Campin 16 Apr 19 - 12:03 PM
punkfolkrocker 16 Apr 19 - 12:09 PM
Donuel 16 Apr 19 - 12:21 PM
Donuel 16 Apr 19 - 12:31 PM
Jack Campin 16 Apr 19 - 01:30 PM
Joe Offer 16 Apr 19 - 01:34 PM
punkfolkrocker 16 Apr 19 - 01:34 PM
keberoxu 16 Apr 19 - 01:52 PM
Donuel 16 Apr 19 - 02:12 PM
Mrrzy 16 Apr 19 - 03:13 PM
Mossback 16 Apr 19 - 04:13 PM
Donuel 16 Apr 19 - 04:24 PM
Jack Campin 16 Apr 19 - 04:50 PM
keberoxu 16 Apr 19 - 05:44 PM
Mossback 16 Apr 19 - 06:12 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Apr 19 - 08:07 PM
Donuel 16 Apr 19 - 08:08 PM
keberoxu 16 Apr 19 - 08:39 PM
Joe Offer 16 Apr 19 - 11:22 PM
EBarnacle 16 Apr 19 - 11:34 PM
Doug Chadwick 17 Apr 19 - 04:57 AM
Donuel 17 Apr 19 - 07:52 AM
Donuel 17 Apr 19 - 08:00 AM
Donuel 17 Apr 19 - 11:59 AM
Mrrzy 17 Apr 19 - 11:59 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 Apr 19 - 12:03 PM
Donuel 17 Apr 19 - 12:07 PM
Joe Offer 17 Apr 19 - 07:44 PM
beardedbruce 17 Apr 19 - 07:58 PM
beardedbruce 17 Apr 19 - 08:00 PM
Joe Offer 18 Apr 19 - 01:01 AM
punkfolkrocker 18 Apr 19 - 01:05 AM
Mr Red 18 Apr 19 - 03:04 AM
Mr Red 18 Apr 19 - 03:12 AM
Monique 18 Apr 19 - 03:59 AM
Donuel 18 Apr 19 - 05:48 AM
Monique 18 Apr 19 - 06:06 AM
Mrrzy 18 Apr 19 - 09:22 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 18 Apr 19 - 10:09 AM

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Subject: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 01:15 PM

Its hard to say who showed up first, the firemen or the lawyers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 01:54 PM

The steeple has collapsed after the flames erupted following a work project.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 02:02 PM

Livestream


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 02:03 PM

There’s a hunch it was an inside job!

I’ll get me coat.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 02:58 PM

"
Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 02:03 PM

There’s a hunch it was an inside job!"
Damn - beat me to it

A story
A couple of tourists in Paris were taken to the bell-tower of Notre Dame and, as the guide was giving the spiel, a hunch-backed man runs through the door. rushes over to the giant bell and head-buts it.
The bell slowly swings on it's pivot;he head-buts it again, and again, and again..., till, with one mighty swing, the bell swings back and hits him , knocking him over the parapet, to his death below.
"Who the hell was that ?" enquirers one of the tourists.
""Dunno", came the reply, "but his face rings a bell"
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 03:05 PM

Just shows how much god cares about all these big old buildings in tribute to him/her...

mysterious ways or what...!!!???

Rain...???


Prime piece of city centre development land that though...

Just saying.. our town had a spate of mystery fires in much loved old amenity buildings
that were protected by complex planning orders...


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 03:22 PM

I haven't felt a loss as great as this since the collapse of Collosus of Rhodes. All the blood sweat and tears of the artists and art are gone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 03:27 PM

Probably a very sheepish roofer/scaffolder quickly binning his ciggies and lighter,
and keeping his head low as far from the scene as possible...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 03:28 PM

Good News! The gift shop was saved.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 03:45 PM

"Gothic monument still in flames. . . " someone's insurance policy is going to take a huge hit.

Doesn't it always end up being someone leaving a heat-generating tool plugged in or bad wiring?


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 03:51 PM

Jeri's link is excellent - CBS via YouTube. And they just pointed out that this is burning down during Holy/Easter Week. It seems this is something that can be played up and made into propaganda. Watch out for the Russian bots proclaiming plots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 03:58 PM

800 year old timbres were always at risk. The structure was declared structurally unsound for 200 years yet the tourism has never been more robust. There is already talk of rebuilding which is impossible when it comes to such an icon of history.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 03:59 PM

Stilly that rhyme sounds like mine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 04:33 PM

THere was a BBC news item a few weeks ago
with a Parisian official moaning about how expensive it is to preserve from falling apart...


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 07:20 PM

I’ve just recently read a similar article on the Houses of Parliament, about how structurally decrepit they’re becoming from age. This was right after the Commons chamber got flooded out by a breakdown in their archaic pipe system.

WHY do they let things get into such a bad state of repair? Moaning about it isn’t the same as doing something to fix it. And they must be aware of the dangers it poses. How symbolic of the times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 07:25 PM

4 days ago Paris watched in broad daylight while 16 bronze statues were air lifted by helicopter from Notre Dame to be renovated.

The funny thing is I had an idea for a novel about a statue Heist called L'Heist so I began googling info when I found out about the statue removals. You would expect the Paris sewers as the extracton route but it would be a simple bakery truck. The real mystery would be revealed about who started the fire in the oak spire and why.
Not far beneath the crypt under Notre Dame is a giant hollow that was ready to become sink hole so time was short for L'Heist of a statue and relics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: bobad
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 07:35 PM

There seems to be a pattern of Catholic churches being desecrated and/or set ablaze in France lately: Newsweek


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Stanron
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 07:50 PM

Macron has pledged a 'public fund' to repair the Cathedral. Good for him. This in itself might be enough for him to defeat the yellow vests. However, Notre Dame was a Catholic Cathedral. How much will the Catholic Church contribute to the restoration? Will they just sit back and let the poor of the world cough up for the restoration? My guess is that they will contribute as little as possible. It might be their church and their religion but I suspect that their money means more to them. I'll be happy to be proved wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame is on fire
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 07:53 PM

Blowback for sex abuse or part of the Steve Bannon plot. Which is it Bobad?


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 09:45 PM

Punkfolkrocker says: Just shows how much god cares about all these big old buildings in tribute to him/her...

I think God has a relationship to Beauty and Art that we can't comprehend. But the massive buildings are more human self-expression and self-identity. Massive churches have far more to do with human values, than with divine. Still, it's a beautiful church and I've spent many good hours gazing at its beauty from all angles. I got inside in 1973, and it was a zoo. Didn't seem much like a church inside. It seemed like the primary focus inside was the gift shop. Mass was going on when I was there in 2008, so I wandered around outside until it was over. And when Mass was over, they said the church was closed. Can't say I waited in vain, because I enjoyed my time waiting (and had a very memorable Grand Marnier crepe)...but it was kind of a dirty deal to make us wait and then not let us in.

Stanron says the Catholic Church should pay for the repairs, but that makes me wonder who owns the cathedral. I think that churches in France have been property of the State since the Revolution, and that the Church uses the properties by concession of the State. Whatever the case, the Church gets little value out of big old churches, but they are of great touristic value. Massive, impressive church buildings send a message a church with a "preferential option for the poor" no longer wants to send.

Regarding ownership of French churches, Wikipedia says....it's complicated.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 09:54 PM

Notre Dame has been destroyed - let's fight about something.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Mossback
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 10:02 PM

It seems this is something that can be played up and made into propaganda. Watch out for the Russian bots proclaiming plots.

Rather looks like bobad is a Russian bot then, dunnit?


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 10:03 PM

I passed through Frankfurt, Germany in the 1980s. The German government was underwriting large scale rebuilding from scratch of many stone edifices lost during the War in the city center. I was impressed that there were enough stone masons available for the immense effort, but obviously however few or many there were, they put the time and wherewithal into it to get it done. The overall work began in the 50s and continued past 2000. I believe for most of these structures there was nothing like the volume of pure stone of Notre Dame, plus nothing near as ancient.

It will be interesting to wait for the facts about the Notre Dame's fire's origin. Unfortunately renovation was not a choice. Time, gravity, pollution, wind and particulates were having long term effects.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 10:51 PM

It's an interesting opportunity for reassessment. Massive cathedrals and other signs of power, are not what faith ought to be about. To my mind, faith ought to be about compassion, not power. But on the other hand, those cathedrals are priceless works of art and symbols of the identity of peoples. I think these beautiful edifices ought to be preserved and used, but I don't know how. To my mind, this world will be lessened if Notre Dame Cathedral is not rebuilt. But to me, Notre Dame is an amazing work of art, not an expression of my faith. And I'm saying as a Catholic, that this massive cathedral is no longer a valid expression of my faith. If it is preserved, it should be preserved for its artistic value, not for its religious value. I reject the religion that it once expressed, while I still see it priceless as a work of art. Same with Sacre Coeur, and same with Mont St. Michel. These are gorgeous buildings and I am so glad I had the opportunity to visit them, but they are not an expression of my religious faith. I love to visit palaces, too, but I am not a monarchist.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 11:01 PM

When Buckingham Palace burned a lot of damage was done to a portion of the building, and Queen Elizabeth paid to have it restored. I think I read that that portion of the building is pretty much a museum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 01:44 AM

Joe:

Well put. I have to say that the Cathedrals I've visited, Notre Dame included, have made quite an impression on me beyond how far an "Edifice Complex" can take folks. They are a tribute to human technical capability combined with artistic inspiration. Those folks didn't have even place holding numerals. It was all digital by which I mean fingers and hands.

I don't remember specifically which English Cathedral I was in, possibly in the Cambridge area, but the stonework overhead was beautiful enough to bring tears. I think it was fan vaulting that impressed me most.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 03:00 AM

i think it is more important that people are not killed. yes it is a pity but buildings can be rebuilt in exactly the same style, .paintings cannot be replaced.JOE HAS MADE SOME VALID POINTS IMO


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 03:32 AM

I think that churches in France have been property of the State since the Revolution

Very much so, as I was told, the revolution based their new currency on the value of sequestrated churches. Instead of gold.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Jim McLean
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 04:08 AM

Stilly River Sage "Queen Elizabeth paid to have it (Buckingham Palace) restored". Who gave her the money?


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 04:56 AM

The fire is out. The damage is heartbreaking, but the beautiful lady of Paris still stands, and many of her treasures are saved. The rose windows have held, even when illuminated all night by terrifying flames.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/world/update-notre-dames-structure-and-artworks-saved-french-billionaire-pledges-200m-for-restoration-918004.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 05:05 AM

The queen dos not pay taxes she can afford to pay to restore her palace herself


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 06:12 AM

The statue of Mary & child was a beautiful gothic work. When the debate over statue removal in the US was hot and heavy I did not know I could feel remorse over a statue.

The green smoke came from 350 tons of lead burning. The orange smoke was oak. The pink and red stained glass was all made by alloys of gold.

It will take a long time to realize what was lost beyond material.
The Library of Alexandria comes to mind in that we still do not know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 06:16 AM

The Sandman: The queen dos not pay taxes she can afford to pay to restore her palace herself
Totally untrue. See the page on Royal Finances (link on the left ('Taxation')

Quoted in part here: The Queen pays tax.

In 1992, The Queen volunteered to pay income tax and capital gains tax, and since 1993 her personal income has been taxable as for any other taxpayer.

The Queen has always been subject to Value Added Tax and pays local rates on a voluntary basis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Jos
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 06:34 AM

I believe the queen began paying taxes following the fire at Windsor Castle, in comparison with which the fire at Buckingham Palace ten years later was a fairly minor affair.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 07:15 AM

The grand organ has been saved!


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Andy7
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 08:33 AM

I once had a conversation with someone from South America, about whether it was right for the RC Church to maintain massive churches at great expense, while so many people lived in such severe poverty.

She said, if the church buildings and land were all sold, and the money shared out among all the poor people, they'd only get a tiny amount each. But with the church there at the heart of the community, everyone, however poor, has the chance to spend many, many hours of their lives in a beautiful, peaceful and holy place.

I'm not sure that I'm convinced by her argument. But it's an interesting alternative viewpoint.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 08:40 AM

My brother in law is a Welsh chapel minister,
I think he'd dispute the necessity of such opulent over extravagance..

They're all worshipping the same deity..

.. and if god can't even be arsed to at least make it rain when a cathedral catches fire...


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: bobad
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 08:48 AM

A couple of French billionaires have pledged 300 million euros to rebuild the cathedral. Luxury goods magnate Bernard Arnault said he would donate 200 million euros the morning after retail mogul François-Henri Pinault pledged 100 million euros.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 08:54 AM

As propoganda or advertising goes, Notre Dame was a truely magnificent Antechamber to the grand concept of heaven.
To the secular it was the Disneyland of religion.
To the religious it was a sneek peek of their reward.
To the clergy it was a cash cow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 09:00 AM

To lovers of beauty, history, and tradition, it was - and is - an irreplaceable jewel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 09:57 AM

So, so sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 12:03 PM

The church-desecration crap seems to have been manufactured by a German fascist "news" site.

My guess would have been a battery explosion in a cordless power tool, but it seems people now see a worker's cigarette as the likely start.

The tobacco industry has enough funds to rebuild the place several times over, and they can hardly claim they didn't know the addiction they created leads to consequences like this. Sue the fuckers out of existence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 12:09 PM

First thing I did yesterday before posting here
was check Paris rules on smoking in the work place...


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 12:21 PM

There will be enough miracles of salvation from the fire and the strength of the French people to rebuild. The great stained glass windows are in good shape. Renewal sounds better than renovation.
No it will never be the same but what ever is?

It is still half there.
The glass is half full.
Its enough, to rebuild.
The grand organ lives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 12:31 PM

bobad's link bears repeating
https://www.newsweek.com/spate-attacks-catholic-churches-france-sees-altars-desecrated-christ-statue-1370800?fbclid=IwAR0kuVeygH


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 01:30 PM

The Newsweek article includes totally baseless accusations against unnamed "anarchists" and "feminists" from an Austrian society independent of the Church and which has no access to any more facts about what actually happened than a typical Twitterer can pull out of his arse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 01:34 PM

There's a very sweet, very religious, very anti-abortion Vietnamese woman in our parish who is very upset today about the burning of Notre Dame Cathedral. For her, the cathedral is very much a symbol of her faith. I love architecture, and I love the cathedral as a work of architecture, but the building gives me no religious inspiration whatsoever. It's completely out of line with my faith, which has no place for awe and power and majesty and authority. I tend for find God in the "still, small voice,", and not in the wind or the earthquake or the fire.

But still, I don't want to see churches demolished or sold or abandoned. They have great meaning for many people, including little people like my Vietnamese friend. And they are wonderful works of architecture that give a taste of artistry to otherwise-bleak cities all over the world.

But I do wonder what to do with these beautiful monstrosities.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 01:34 PM

There was, perhaps still is, a movement inspired by the human need
for special tranquil spaces for inner reflection and conemplation..
Churches for non religious-believers...

Yes there is definitely something very essential for our minds to be found in 'sacred' buildings..

I love huge reverbrative high ceiling structures, and pipe organs...


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: keberoxu
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 01:52 PM

Thank you, Joe Offer,
for putting Cathedral in the thread title.

The first time I saw the earlier cathedral-free thread title,
I thought of the state of Indiana,
and people like Doctor Tom Dooley ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 02:12 PM

You thought of the fighting Irish?

Not being a fan of sports or its trivia I did not conceive of such a thing.
Joe is a challenging editor but behind the scenes he is great.
    We make subtle changes to thread titles for clarity, so titles are understandable by all. No offense is intended.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 03:13 PM

And I, diehard [haha] atheist, would have joined in the hymns if I'd known the words.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Mossback
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 04:13 PM

Vis a vis the Newsweek article and for bobad's benefit:

Black churches are being desecrated across the United States and we DO know why.

NB: This is NOT a conspiracy theory.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 04:24 PM

I know, I'm just teasing keboroxu.
Anyway I'd hate to think of an entire University and football team on fire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 04:50 PM

I knew there was a university called Notre Dame in the US - but my only link with it was reading articles in the Notre Dame Journal of Formal Logic, which was pretty good at the time. It's pretty sick that an academic institution should end up being famous for footballers (presumably a gang of overpaid rapists).


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: keberoxu
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 05:44 PM

Notre Dame, in the state of Indiana,
is famous for somebody else as well.
Actually two different schools happily claim credit for this person.
The other school is in Missouri:
the medical school at Saint Louis University.

He had to resign from the US Navy, years later,
for "conduct unbecoming." Recognize him yet?

It took him two different schools, as well as the Navy's corpsman program,
to make a medical doctor out of him,
because as a very young many he was a lousy student.

Doctor Tom Dooley died at the age of 34.
There is a statue of him at one of the two schools,
I'm guessing it's Notre Dame and not Saint Louis University.

After making a medical doctor and a serviceman out of him,
the military rewarded him -- he was still young, remember --
by requiring him to be the figurehead
of their propaganda campaign against Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam.

This was in the 1950's, with Eisenhower in office;
the US hawks badly wanted Eisenhower to get the war underway.

If this sounds complex, it is, and so was he.
He's worth a whole thread in himself, is Dr. Tom Dooley.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Mossback
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 06:12 PM

Poor boy, he's bound to die.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 08:07 PM

Resurrexit sicit dixit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 08:08 PM

The only tid bit of Notre Dame news that was interesting was about two fire alarms. The first sent 'someone' to invesigate but nothing was found. Response to the second alarm discovered a moderate fire in progress. The firemen took 30 minutes to arrive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: keberoxu
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 08:39 PM

I was interested that
the fire department had its own chaplain,
who had to insist that they admit him
INSIDE the burning church.
He wanted to rescue
the Blessed Sacrament implements
and the relics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 11:22 PM

All this reminds me of the Pillars of the Earth trilogy by Ken Follett. It's a lot of pages but a great read, and you'll have a good understanding of cathedrals by the time you finish. The religious value of a cathedral is only one aspect. It can and should be the profound self-expression of a community. Notre-Dame is certainly that for Paris.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: EBarnacle
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 11:34 PM

The word that seems common to most of the reports I have heard and seen is "disfigured." It seems appropriate for all of its dark connotations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 04:57 AM

It's a pity that the 'crown of thorns', the 'fragment of the true cross' and other such nonsense couldn't have gone up in the flames. 'Relics' that surfaced in the 11th and 12th centuries, venerated today as having special powers, give religion a bad name.

DC


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Subject: RE: When Notre Dame Cathedral was brand new
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 07:52 AM

Here is a little tune sung at Notre Dame when the church was brand NEW. all the ends of the earth

the lyrics are not as tame as the tune


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 08:00 AM

These next two tunes have nicer videos of ND
hot time in the ol church tonight


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 11:59 AM

Abu Sidal (Aswan Statues), London Bridge, Queen Mary, Gallitzin Castle - all have been moved from thier original location.
I am looking forward to the new Amazon Notre Dame Cathedral relocated to the beautiful shores of New Jersey over looking the NYC skyline.

Leave it to Bezos, were all bezos on this bus, if you want it done right.

With over a billion Euros 'pledged' (worth a cup of coffee) to rebuild the church there are protests in Paris saying the money should go to the poor. Others are saying the charity from billionairs
could go to better use.

So enter the lawyers, politicians, the super wealthy and the poor all bckering while the firemen say "you better cover the roof and quick! The windows are at imminent risk from rain, wind and collapse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 11:59 AM

I thought of Pilllars of the Earth too.

Still so, so sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 12:03 PM

The mini series was quite a good historical romp...


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 12:07 PM

Now lets see, we could save the Earth/Climate, or build the church...hmmm

SAVE THE CHURCH

why? because thats what all the pre historic ruins look like they did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 07:44 PM

I've always admired the spire that was destroyed in this week's fire. I had assumed it was part of the original structure, but it wasn't. It was built on the 19th century of oak covered with lead, to replace a 500-yr-old spire that was in disrepair.
I wonder what the replacement will be - probably not oak and lead.
Anybody know where I can find good close-up pictures of the spire? The one at Wikipedia is quite good, but I'd like even more detail. Is that a bell inside the spire?
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 07:58 PM

Bells of Notre Dame de Paris

The cathedral has 10 bells, the bourdon called Emmanuel, which is tuned to F sharp, has been an accompaniment to some of the most major events in the history of France ever since it was first cast, such as for the Te Deum for the coronation of French kings along with major events like the visit of the Pope, and others to mark the end of conflicts including World War I and World War II. It also rings in times of sorrow and drama to unite believers at the Notre-Dame Cathedral, like for the funerals of the French heads of state, massacres like such as the 11 September Twin Towers incident and it is reserved for the Cathedral's special occasions like Christmas, Easter, and Ascension. This particular bell was the masterpiece of the whole group of bells that weighs in at 13 tons, and fortunately, it was saved from the devastation that arose during the French Revolution. According to bell ringers and musicians, it is still one of the most beautiful sound vessels and one of the most remarkable in Europe. The bell dates from the 15th century and was recast in 1681 upon the request of King Louis XIV who named it the Emmanuel Bell.

There were also four bells that replaced those destroyed in the French Revolution. Placed at the top of the North Tower in 1856, these ring daily for basic services, the Angelus and the chiming of the hours. The first of these bells, named Angélique-Françoise, weighs in at 1,915kg and is tuned to C sharp; the next bell is named Antoinette-Charlotte, weighing in at 1,335kg and tuned to D sharp. Then there is the bell named Jacinthe-Jeanne weighing in at 925kg tuned to F and the fourth bell named Denise-David weighs 767kg and just like the Grand Bell Emmanuel, it is tuned to F sharp. A few years later, in 1867, a carillon of three bells in the spire with two chimes that linked to the monumental clock were put in place and another three bells were positioned in the actual structure of the Notre-Dame Cathedral itself, so that they could be heard inside. However, unfortunately, these are at present mute, although a project is currently being looked at, and hopefully will be put into place, in order to restore the Carillon to its former glory. The four bells that were put in place in 1856 are now stored, as of February 2012.

About a year later, a new set of eight bells for the North Tower of Notre-Dame Cathedral was being produced, along with a Grand Bell for the South Tower, just as there were originally before most were destroyed during the French Revolution. The construction of bells is one of accuracy and precision to obtain the desired sound and the work has been entrusted to two separate companies, one in France for the eight bells and one in Belgium for the Grand Bell. Each of the new bells is named with names that have been chosen to pay tribute to saints and others who have shaped the life of Paris and the Notre-Dame Cathedral.

Emmanuel is accompanied by another large bell in the south tower called Marie. At six tonnes and playing a G Sharp, Marie is the second largest bell in the cathedral. Marie is also called a Little Bourdon (petite bourdon) or a drone bell because it is located alongside Emmanuel in the south tower. Built in a foundry in The Netherlands, it has engravings as a most distinctive feature, something which is different compared to the other bells. The phrases “Je vous salue Marie,” in French, and “Via viatores quaerit,” in Latin, which mean ”Hail Mary” (where the bell gets its name from the Virgin Mary) and ”The way is looking for travellers”. Below the phrase appears an image of the Baby Jesus and his parents surrounded by stars and a relief with the Adoration of the Magi. It is in charge of the Small Solennel, which is similar to the Great Solennel except that the ringing peal starts with the bourdon and the eight bells in the north tower. This ring is heard on only 1 January (New Year's Day) at the stroke of midnight and it replaces Emmanuel for international events. Like Emmanuel, the bells are used to mark specific moments such as the arrival at the Cathedral of the body of the deceased Archbishop of Paris.

In the North Tower, there are eight bells varying in size from largest to smallest. Gabriel is the largest bell there; it weighs four tons and plays an A sharp. It is named after St. Gabriel, who announced the birth of Jesus to the Virgin Mary. Built in a bell foundry outside Paris in 2013, it also chimes the hour through the day. Like Emmanuel and Marie, Gabriel is used to mark specific events. It is used mainly for masses on Sundays in ordinary times and some solemnities falling during the week in the Plenum North. It shows 40 circular lines representing the 40 days Jesus spent in the desert and the 40 years of Moses' crossing the Sinai.

Anne-Geneviève is the second largest bell in the North Tower and the fourth largest bell in the cathedral. Named after two saints: St. Anne, Mary’s mother, and St. Geneviève the patron saint of Paris, it plays a B and it weighs three tons. It has three circular lines that represent the Holy Trinity and three theological virtues. Like Emmanuel, Marie and Gabriel, Anne-Genevieve is used to mark specific moments such as the opening of the doors to the Palm Sunday mass or the body of the deceased Archbishop of Paris. Also it is the only bell that does not participate in a chime called the Angelus Domini, which happens in the summer at 8am, noon and 8pm (or 9am, noon and 9pm).

Denis is the third largest bell in the North Tower and fifth largest bell in the cathedral. It is named after St. Denis, the martyr who was also the first bishop of Paris around the year 250; it weighs 2 tons and plays a C sharp. This bell includes the third phrase of the Angelus, “Behold the handmaid of the Lord”. There are also seven circular lines representing the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the seven Sacraments.

Marcel is the fourth largest bell in the North Tower and sixth largest bell in the cathedral. It is named after the 9th bishop of Paris [fr]. It plays a D sharp and weighs 1.9 tons. It is named after Saint Marcel, the ninth bishop of Paris, known for his tireless service to the poor and sick in the fifth century. The bell that bears his name as a tribute has engraved upon it the fourth sentence of the Angelus, “Be it done unto me according to Thy word”.

Étienne is the fifth largest bell in the North Tower and seventh largest bell in the cathedral. It is named after St. Stephan in English, but citizens of Paris call it by its French equivalent Étienne. It plays a E sharp and it weighs 1.5 tons. Its most prominent features are that there was a gold stripe slightly above the nameplate.

Benoît-Joseph is the sixth largest bell in the North Tower and eighth largest bell in the cathedral. Just like Anne-Geneviève, it is named after two saints. Benoît is in honor of Pope Benedict XVI of Vatican City, while Joseph in honor of Joseph Ratzinger which is his real name (2005–2013). It plays an F and weighs 1.3 tons. It has two silver stripes above the skirt and one silver stripe above the nameplate. This bell is used for weddings and sometimes chimes the hour replacing Gabriel, most likely on a chime called the Ave Maria.

Maurice is the seventh largest bell in the North Tower and second smallest in the cathedral. It is named after Maurice de Sully, the bishop of Paris who laid the first stone, in 1163, for the construction of the Cathedral. It includes the inscription, “Pray for us, Holy Mother of God". It plays a G sharp and weighs one ton. It has two gray stripes below the nameplate. This bell is used for weddings.

Jean Marie is the smallest bell of the cathedral. Unlike Benoît-Joseph and Anne-Geneviève which have two names, it is named after Cardinal Jean-Marie Lustiger, Paris' bishop from 1981 until 2005, and on it is engraved the eighth and last sentence of the Angelus: “that we might be made worthy of the promises of Christ”. It plays an A sharp and weighs 0.780 tons. It has a small gray stripe above the skirt. This bell is also used for weddings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 08:00 PM

No bells in the spire- just relics and statues

The cathedral's flèche (or spire), which was destroyed in the April 2019 fire,[60] was located over the transept and altar. The original spire was constructed in the 13th century, probably between 1220 and 1230. It was battered, weakened and bent by the wind over five centuries, and finally was removed in 1786. During the 19th-century restoration, Eugène Viollet-le-Duc decided to recreate it, making a new version of oak covered with lead. The entire spire weighed 750 tons.

Following Viollet-le-Duc's plans, the spire was surrounded by copper statues of the twelve Apostles, in four groups of three, one group at each point of the compass. Each of the four groups were preceded by an animal symbolising one of the four evangelists: a steer for Saint Luke, a lion for Saint Mark, an eagle for Saint John and an angel for Saint Matthew. Just days prior to the spire's collapse, all of the statues were removed for restoration.[61] While in place, they had faced outwards towards Paris, except one; the statue of Saint Thomas, the patron saint of architects, which faced the spire, and had the features of Viollet-le-Duc.

The rooster at the summit of the spire contained three relics: a tiny piece of the Crown of Thorns, located in the treasury of the Cathedral; and relics of Denis and Saint Genevieve, patron saints of Paris. They were placed there in 1935 by the Archibishop Jean Verdier, to protect the congregation from lightning or other harm.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 01:01 AM

I believe that the statues from the spire had been removed for the renovation, and are stored in a safe place. The rooster from the top of the spire was recovered from a nearby street, but it looked pretty battered in the photo I saw.
I like the fact that all the bells have names.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 01:05 AM

All the elements and clues for a terrific planned and controlled fire conspiracy theory
are present and correct...

What a lucky break for a beleaguered President needing to reunite a divided nation...
..and save a few francs on a cheap rebuild rather than an expensive restoration...

..sshhh...


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 03:04 AM

if the church buildings and land were all sold, and the money shared out among all the poor people,

It would be a one-off handout however much they got. And the ensuing years there would be poverty still.

The one thing gigantic edifices give, apart from as a focus for pilgrims** is that it is a cash cow which in an ideal world would trickle down to the poor. But you dun gotta be an impoverished RC (other religions are available, term and conditions apply).

**I always viewed pilgrims as tourists with a different agenda.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 03:12 AM

Churches for non religious-believers...

Something with music and singing? A little bread? A little wine? And communal prayers that will put all the world to rights?
Sounds like Folk Clubs, Folk Festivals, Sessions, Singarouns to me!


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Monique
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 03:59 AM

Joe, those are the closest shots of the spire I could find.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 05:48 AM

So there were bells in the the spire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Monique
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 06:06 AM

The comment does read "The spire is no longer a bell tower" though. I have no idea of which is the spire with bells shown in the photo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 09:22 AM

I thought Redwall having names for their bells was cute, I didn't know it was normal. Thanks for that bells post.

The spire had no bells, I thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 10:09 AM

One of my favourite scenes in the (magnificent) Charles Laughton film version of Hunchback is when he calls out the names of the bells. That was the first time I discovered that they even had names. Can't remember in what context this takes place - perhaps when he is explaining his deafness to (?)Esmeralda, and consequently also to us. It's one of the immortal world-class performances.


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