Should women sing chanties

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 02:54 PM

Why is it always the 'singing Horse' bullies who complain about being bullied by 'folk police' - usually with insulting terms like 'folk police' ?
Insecure lot, aren't they !!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 02:31 PM

Folk Law Enforcement Agency.

Ruh-roh.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Iains
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 10:36 AM

The Peatbog Faeries performing Folk Police!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVV6OQpuHD4

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 10:26 AM

We still have a few Proper Chanty Singing Officers in our neighbourhood. We just call them PCSOs nowadays.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 09:22 AM

There is no limit to a a musician's creativity..
Accept that Heavy Metal and Electronica shanties exist
and are enjoyed by younger audiences,
who probably know eff all about folk clubs and folk law enforcement agencies...

Folk Police...???

Howabout...

Folk Special Constables..??

Folk Community Support Officers..???

Folk Traffic Wardens..????

If those are to formal and you don't fancy wearing the uniforms..

What about Folk Neighbourhood Watch..???

The Folk Militia...???


I quite fancy the option of Folk Vigelantes..
going dark and rogue like Batman..

... the Folk Caped Crusaders...

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: IanW
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 09:22 AM

I remember going to a festival about 15 years ago and going to a maritime session. The chap running the festival nearly caused a riot when he said "If you want to sing put your name on this list, men that is"

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 09:11 AM

Performers who claim to reproduce historical situations as closely as possible must be measured by that ideal. If they restrict this claim to the acoustic result, they need not wear sailors' clothes or beards. However, if they use harmonies or other musical devices thta were unknown at the time they envisage (usually the time when the song was created), they may still make good music, but will fail their claim. The situation is similar to a picture restorer in an art museum who uses modern colours - a failure!

On the other hands, many shanties and other songs have never been sung in the situations they describe. In such cases, a really authentic performance may well include a piano, five-part harmony etc.; present-day audiences may prefer "fake authenticity" to "authentic fakes".

Have shanties ever been sung in the upper octave in genuine situations? I certainly think so, not only by those few women dressed as men, but by young boys, e.g. from orphanages. Some workhouses sent their boys to ships as a punishment, or sold them. Others were so bad that inmates deemed themselves happy to escape on a ship.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 07:42 AM

"I think there are 'trad ' folks in folk music who want the performers to adhere rigidly"
If there are, I don't think they have put an appearance in here
I think there is no greater evidnce of "folk policing than the use of the term "folk police" - it's a form of unnecessary insulting
None of this has anything to do with folk "authenticity" - it is a matter of communication
For me, normal women's voices singing about turning capstans and hauling mainsheets sound as ludicrous as hairy-arsed rugby players complaining about being stuck up the duff by blacksmiths - neither convince me
Women are as free to sing shanties as I am to say that, unless they develop their voices to the extent that they sound convincing , they end up sounding rather false
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 06:45 AM

I wonder how big and unnecessary obstacle it would be if a song had to be sung in it's original key? (I'm assuming the 'trad-policeman' mentioned above is demanding that all songs should be forever sung in the 'traditional' key of its composer).
Good luck with that one, Officer.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: GUEST,Anon
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 06:10 AM

I think there are 'trad ' folks in folk music who want the performers to adhere rigidly
to the original versions of the song. I've heard some folks disapproval of using harmony in traditional Irish music, b/c (supposedly) in all those centuries of Irish friends and family gathering to sing; no one added harmony to the song. I' m not even sure that's true, but there are folks who think that way. I remember once in a song circle, I led the song Candyman. I had a lot of rousing support with folks singing along ( and rewarding applause btw). However one member of the 'trad police' loudly announced his displeasure that I sang the song in the "wrong key" and that he had never heard it sung that way. His comment landed like a lead balloon in a more open minded group of musicians.

There seems to be almost a religious fervor with those who want to preserve the old style of folk music - as opposed to those of us who embrace the 'folk process' and just want to have fun.

The Johnson Girls , as mentioned by a previous poster, are a band of women I' ve heard in concert,
who bring a refreshing energy to Chanty music. However, glancing at their website, I see that even Pete Seeger voiced a compliment on their robust style that to me is at best a left handed compliment. "I didn't know women could sing that way " is how the old school gent put it.

Ah well, you gotta love Seeger, but after all, he is the one who tried to yank the cord out from Dylan's electric guitar.

Personally,I' m glad that Dylan decided to graduate from the old school.

Room for all, in my book, and if you only want to sing seas chantries as performed in a prior century - go ahead. Meanwhile, I love a good song anyway it's done - as long as it's done well- whether it's Ragoan Road by Mark Knopfler or a pristine melody by the Pennywhistlers or for that matter, Dylan 's uproarious Pretty Peggy O.

Sing on - and sing out , folks.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Ged Fox
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 04:16 AM

Were shanties sung in the fighting navies of nations other than Britain?

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 09:09 PM

Joe Offer, the answer to your question, if someone else hasn't answered it and I've missed it, is Celeste Bernardo. She's on the bill for this June's Mystic Sea Music Festival, and you can read about her here.
http://www.lowellsun.com/todaysheadlines/ci_32175439/exhibit-citys-heritage

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 05:07 PM

Interesting implication that Royal Navy ships sailed in worse storms than merchant navy ships. Maybe there was a difference in practice, but if so it was because of a difference in attitudes to the workforce and discipline etc. The "Royal Navy ships were better manned" argument scarcely holds water either, unless one assumes that prize crews, or decimated crews that had survived battles & scurvy, were allowed to sing shanties.

Well Jed just an observation but Merchant vessels are engaged in trade and tended to sail with cargoes from point A to point B. They also had smaller crews as they only have to sail the ship and the aim of the vessel owner was to maximise profit. Something like a Clipper had a crew of between 28 and 35 men. On the other hand Royal Navy men-of-war have to be manned so that the ship can be sailed and fought simultaneously. A typical 74-gun ship of the line (smaller than a clipper) had a compliment of 550 men. Men-of-war were also tasked completely differently, they had to remain at sea regardless of weather to maintain blockades of enemy ports and patrol. Only in extreme conditions would they run for shelter, even then frigates would be left on station to keep an eye on things. Merchant crews signed for each voyage, sailors in the Royal Navy signed on for the entire commission of the ship and that could be years. Common sense would tell you that under such circumstances a sailor in the Royal Navy would know his ship far better than a sailor in the merchant service as he spent more time in his ship and far longer at sea in it. No Shanties/Chanties sung in the Royal Navy to work the ship - they weren't needed.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 02:37 PM

Favourite Film quote from Man for All Seasons by Moore to Richard Rich who has betrayed him for the governorship of Wales
"What shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? - but Wales !!!!"
Jim

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 01:45 PM

Jim - However, folkies have such immense disdain
for the programmers who invented "Autotune"...???

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 01:38 PM

"Thus dispelling the dominant stereotype about the Welsh..."
Common Liverpool saying
"The person who persuaded the Welsh they could sing did the world a great disservice"
Jim

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 01:34 PM

Stilly - don't I know it..

My mrs has a limitless memory for lyrics, and boundless enthusiasm for singing..

Unfortunately her voice is completely tuneless...

Thus dispelling the dominant stereotype about the Welsh...

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 01:28 PM

Jumping to the bottom here - what a silly question! Women can sing anything they want! /rant off

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: meself
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 01:20 PM

"What I do find incongruous are chanties accompanied by guitar."

Well, I would think they are only congruous if they are being sung by seaman on deck for the appropriate tasks, or, possibly, by former seamen who did those tasks singing them for collectors. Once they become entertainment only, anything goes, as far as I'm concerned - as long as some outlandish claim of authenticity is not being made - but even then, that's showbiz, isn't it?

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 10:00 AM

"Photo for Jim"
She could haul my topsail up the mast anytime, shanty or not !
Jim

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 09:36 AM

Photo for Jim

"[female]Cadets douse the sales aboard the USCGC Eagle, during the Grand Parade of Sail in Boston. The USCGC Eagle, “America’s Tall Ship, ..."
https://images.app.goo.gl/1FrTfPWBGzYnYEdX7 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What I do find incongruous are chanties accompanied by guitar.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Ged Fox
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 09:12 AM

"If by British Navy you are referring to the Merchant Service then singing of shanties was not banned.

If you are referring to the Royal Navy then there was never any need to sing shanties to work the ship as all work was undertaken to direct order or by pipes on a bosun's call that would always be heard in action or in a storm whereas a voice would not."

Interesting implication that Royal Navy ships sailed in worse storms than merchant navy ships. Maybe there was a difference in practice, but if so it was because of a difference in attitudes to the workforce and discipline etc. The "Royal Navy ships were better manned" argument scarcely holds water either, unless one assumes that prize crews, or decimated crews that had survived battles & scurvy, were allowed to sing shanties.

Not that it matters in respect of folk clubs where, inevitably, it is far more common to hear pshanties, i.e. barber-shop shanties, rather than work songs.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 05:56 AM

To open another item of contention, when singing a song related to gender, should the gender be changed to suit the singer of the song? For example, I've heard the Beatles "This Boy" being sung by a female as "This Girl". It just didn't sound right. She'd been better just singing "this boy" or better still, chosen another song. The Teddy Bears "To know him is to love him" is one song that is easily adaptable by changing "him" to "you". Imo, it's one of the few 'gender' songs where a change works (albeit it's to the second person).

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 05:33 AM

On cowboy songs: a building firm we once misguidedly employed were so bad we addressed letters to them at 'the old corral'. Cowboys for sure.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Mo the caller
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 05:13 AM

meself said
"Surely it's a matter of personal taste - should formal, ('white') church-y choirs sing five-part-harmony arrangements of folk songs? That sort of thing doesn't appeal to me in the least - but I'm not going to say they shouldn't do it: let them have their fun. "
Our choir sings mostly classical music but in summer we include a couple of those un-folky arrangements from the "Oxford book of Folk Songs for Choirs". Fun?

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Mo the caller
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 05:07 AM

My question is
Are there some shanties that MEN shouldn't sing. Some of the words are very misogynist.
When I hear a woman singing those I realise just how horrid they are and feel uncomfortable with it.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 04:33 PM

I love this Wurzels song . Some people say its a folk song.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zbtAxQdZcU

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: meself
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 04:17 PM

... well ... this forum does get a bit dull when there's a long stretch when no one asks one of those questions that can't be asked ... !

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 04:02 PM

Seriously, how can this question even be asked?

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Acorn4
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 02:59 PM

Last time we visited Ireland there was C and W on about half the radio stations we tuned into.

There are some male singers whose voices wouldn't suit shanties and some whose voices do.

Kate Rusby sounds great on her "deshantification" of Ranzo but can't imagine her doing "Chicken on a Raft"; She Shanties sound great on belting out what they do.

Horses for courses?

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 02:58 PM

Same silliness here but calypso: A very uncomfortable question- perform other trads

My own experience with the so-called sail training genre has been limited to search and recovery. Opposite of fun.

Pretty much any persuasion can pull their share at nautically themed folk club singarounds. Just don't be a dick.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 12:26 PM

Bonz - depends.. I won't let my mrs do any cooking...

But she seems capable enough ironing her work clothes..

But that's all that gets ironed in our house...

I'm sure there are ironing songs..
I saw something on TV recently, women slapping clothes on a river bank while singing in time to the actions...

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 12:20 PM

Should women iron shirts??????????????

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 11:42 AM

"but there are plenty of women who have jobs just as arduous as men"
Some most certainly do, but I doubt if any of them did the work associated with shanties - a few went to sea in disguise but they've got their own songs
I really wasn't going to make an issue of this - I feel the same about hairy fellers singing about being seduced by passing gentlemen - it raises problematical pictures somehow
I think, just as an East End Jack-the-Lad singing about his problems rounding up cattle, a little too far for me to make the link between the singer and the subject matter
I believe it's largely a tonal thing - the sound of most womens' voices acts contrary to what is being described in the songs
I was discussing this with Pat (my partner) earlier, and she pointed out that shanties make excellent exercises for but women and men to extend their tonal and musical ranges, but not for performance
Jim

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 11:40 AM

My mum still had to move and carry full milk churns in a cheese factory
while she was expecting me..

When I was litte, her impressive party piece was bending nails with her bare hands..

Now she's 87, she still impresses Drs with her resillience...

I don't reckon she'd have let down the rest of the crew if she'd sailed the 7 seas..

Though, that wasn't a job option in her younger days...

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 11:21 AM

Shanties are work songs which I, as a manual worker, am able to associate with different jobs I have carried out in my working life, ...

Genteel ladies may spend their time arranging flowers in church but there are plenty of women who have jobs just as arduous as men. My mother worked in a biscuit factory and spent her time digging dough out of huge containers and loading it onto the work-belt while the men stood round in brown coats, supervising. Even stay-at-home housewives, in the days before automatic washing machines, cars and click & collect, had to lug heavy shopping home, wash and dry heavy laundry by hand and walk miles taking the children to and from school. They knew what hard work was from personal experience. Enough to justify singing chanties as any other landlubber.

DC

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 11:14 AM

"Because I'm from Scrumpyshire, I should only sing wurzle songs...???"
Why should you - they sound equally odd ?
Oooo -arrr ia as patronising as you can get
Jim

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 09:29 AM

"It's there for those who want to listen to it Al" - could have sworn I was talking about singing it
Moving to were we have means I can listen to good traditional music any night I wish by turning on the tele - radio and shuffle down the road a while to sit in on a session six nights a week (we really will have to sort Tuesdays out)
Jim

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 09:26 AM

Because I'm from Scrumpyshire, I should only sing wurzle songs...???

Even though the accent was educated out of me decades ago,
and I'd sound like a posh actor trying to do zummerzet yokel roles...

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 09:17 AM

On the face of it, moving to Ireland to get away from Cowboy songs and country music - well it doesn't sound the greatest of moves.

I always loved Welsh and irish country singers - Johnny MacEvoy, Royston jones...

in fact I always thought Charlie Pride had a Welsh voice, despite him not coming from Wales.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 08:57 AM

I'm not a Paulist

the childisher the better!.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 08:53 AM

Me too - When I was a child I acted like a child - but wen I became a man I put aside childish things' Al
Jim

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 08:50 AM

I owned every cap gun Woolworths ever had on the toy counter. Including the Cisco kid one. In fact my mother quite unbidden sent for me a gun you could load with toy bullets, with labels from the Sugar Puffs packet.

yep!

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 08:15 AM

"Brits who like singing cowboy songs..."
That's always appeared a bit ridiculous to me too - as has while Londoners pretending to be on Chain Gangs
None of this means they shouldn't, of course - just my take on things.
Jim

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 07:59 AM

Jim - your personal view is a bit too restrictive for any Brits who like singing cowboy songs...

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 06:37 AM

Chanteys in Royal Navy?

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 06:10 AM

"Was/is singing sea shanties really banned on the ships of the British Navy? It seems an odd rule, especially on sailing ships where the rhythm helps a group of people to coordinate lowering or raising a heavy sail, for instance."

If by British Navy you are referring to the Merchant Service then singing of shanties was not banned.

If you are referring to the Royal Navy then there was never any need to sing shanties to work the ship as all work was undertaken to direct order or by pipes on a bosun's call that would always be heard in action or in a storm whereas a voice would not. The crew of a warship was always far greater in number than that of a Merchantman so working the ship was much easier.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 05:22 AM

Why not? Very few are actually sung now as Shanties/Chanties, they have just become "songs" to be performed as desired by the artist - little or no connection to what the songs were ever actually about. I was fortunate enough to listen to someone employed as a Shantyman on a sail training ship lead a shanty on a Square-rigger with the watch on deck working to it. It put the thing in context.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 04:36 AM

I think Lesbians, Gays and transgenders should also sing shantys with gay abandon.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 04:29 AM

We had a guy used to sing often sea-shantys at our local folk club. He was a helicopter pilot.