uk revival and Agents

Subject: uk revival and Agents
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 May 19 - 01:35 PM

to what extent are agents responsible for the present state of the UKFOLKREVIVAL?

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 May 19 - 01:44 PM

Very little. Next thread please.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 May 19 - 02:12 PM

Vic, why so dismissive?and no clarification as to why you think they have had little effect on the uk folk revival

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 May 19 - 02:31 PM

Their job is surely just to get their clients a larger share of the available work. They don't make any difference to the total amount of work that's going.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 May 19 - 02:49 PM

Sorry, Dick, but I read the title and what I saw the potential for this becoming yet another thread that develops into long wrangling from the same group of people taking up the same positions without there being any hope of resolution. If it doesn't then I will apologise to you. I sincerely hope it doesn't because to many folk enthusiasts that I talk to Mudcat has become something of a laughing stock because of this.
So I will give my contribution and the retire and watch what happens.

For many busy profesional performers in all branches of the performing arts, there comes a time when handling their own appearances/engagements/contracts/publicity etc. takes too much of their time and they are pleased to hand over that business to an agent for a percentage of their earnings. I would reckon that it is a pretty tough job without a guaranteed income. Relationship between an artists can have many points at which it can become fraught.
In 50+ years of running folk clubs and festivals, I have worked with very many agents. They have ranged from the the excellent and utterly reliable to the hopeless and inefficient with most somewhere between the two extremes. Just like all the other people that I interact with in my life, in fact.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 May 19 - 02:53 PM

Two words missing:-
Relationship between an artists and agents can have many points...

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 May 19 - 05:12 PM

I disagree. For about twenty years now, the agents have had a malign influence.Promotiing very dull acts.

I suppose its come from the knowledge that social secretaries at colleges,and frequently people booking folk festivals don't have a clue about acoustic music, and anyway they'll have moved on by next year. So earning a rebooking doesn't matter.

THe deals that at one time were done at street level by folk clubs are no more. Another by product of the diminution of the clubs.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 May 19 - 05:16 PM

i would like to as k Vic a question , you ran a folk club for avery long time do you remember whether over the years you booked through agents in latter years more frequently than in the sixties or seventies

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 19 - 03:04 AM

A PIECE OF HISTORY ON THE SUBJECT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 19 - 04:08 AM

Surely agents promote commercial acts. They are not running a charitable organisation. It is all about bums on seats, nothing more nothing less.
No audience, no dinaro. It is all about entertainment(talent), in this case a small niche in the entire spectrum.
Those with talent and ambition thrive, others do not. The agents grease the wheels of the process and speed the road to stardom.
The vast majority will listen to music/songs that appeal to then whether it be dylan, one direction, or Ewan MacColl. It is a tiny tiny minority that wish to strip the carcase and divinate with the bones of a restricted genre.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 May 19 - 04:13 AM

Aye Jim Carroll, and not a lot has changed since that was written. Only difference now, is that the agents have colleges and universities training up grist for their mills. Much less travel involved for them, on recruiting drives ;)

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 19 - 04:29 AM

No musician is forced to employ an "agent" if they don't want to.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: r.padgett
Date: 06 May 19 - 04:39 AM

I would say that they can be very useful to visiting folk guests from overseas in fixing up tours at Concert clubs and other venues

Not sure about the word Revival in this question

Ray

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 May 19 - 04:46 AM

to be honest, I had a great affection for the old time agents. The ones on the folkscene never did me any favours. But I understood that, I wasn't showbiz enough for them. The acts were mainly entertainers who relied on getting rebooked by the working class audiences who frequented folk clubs.


The new breed. I just think they're bad news for everybody. They're part of the middle cass land grab.

Folk music is now a bit like the civil service. A safe career option for middle class kids.

The clerical officers and assistants are the ordinary joes who sit in sessions, provide the support acts and PA free for the privilege of rubbing shoulders with professionals.

The executive officers are a few posh gits. Musically accomplished but not much cop at communicating with an audience. Making records that don't sell. Gigs for college kids who know nowt, festival gigs for foreigners, dire programmes that no one watches for BBC4.

Still as Hyman Roth says in Godfather 2. this is the business we are engaged in.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 19 - 05:24 AM

IANS said Surely agents promote commercial acts.
they promote their own commercial acts, true, they also through promotion, create commercial acts.
now if they promote and create STARS in the same way that pops stars are created then logically they have an influence on the uk folk revival.
I am not going to comment on whether this is good or bad,but just remark that this is happening, and if it is happening then agents are not just getting work for artists but are shaping and influencing the uk folk revival to some extent., to what extent that is happening compared to thirty years ago is debatable

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 19 - 05:30 AM

Re Jim's post; I got as far as 'just a simple modest chap', noted the false accent and fell about laughing. Fake folk with banjo.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 May 19 - 05:37 AM

The original question contains the implication that somehow agents are damaging the folk scene. I'm not quite sure how. They will only take on clients who they believe they will be able to find gigs for, so these are presumably the most successful and (whilst this doesn't always follow) the most talented. Is it being suggested that these performers don't deserve the gigs they are getting, or is it sour grapes that they are getting more work than those without an agent?

I believe the folk revival is underpinned by its professional musicians. Without them we'd just be a bunch of amateurs singing the same handful songs to each other. No doubt someone will pop up to say that is what folk music should be, but unless you are fortunate enough to have someone of exceptional talent in your circle it probably wouldn't be very inspiring, in an age when we have many other sources of entertainment.

Whilst I have taken some inspiration from fellow club musicians, it has come mostly from the professionals I admire. These are the ones who dig about in RVML to find new and interesting songs and work them up into a performance, which the rest of us can then steal. They are the ones who develop techniques and styles appropriate to the music. They are the ones with the time and motivation to think deeply about the music, to explore new avenues and to take risks. Most of the rest of us only follow in their wake. They are the ones who make albums which spread this new material and inspire others. If it weren't for them I'd be a far more limited musician than I am, with a much smaller repertoire.

No one is getting rich from playing folk music. A few probably make a decent living, many only just scrape by but keep doing it because they love it. I suspect nearly all of them could probably have made a far better for themselves had they chosen another profession. It's a tough job, involving large amounts of travel and sleeping on people's sofas, and for many the task of chasing up gigs is the most unpleasant aspect. If they choose to use agents to help them that is entirely understandable. If those agents are then successful in getting work for their clients they are only doing their job.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 19 - 05:38 AM

Sigh.......
Much rather have mid-Atlantic Dylanese, I'm sure
The song was a piece of satire - you're meant to laugh
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Shaman
Date: 06 May 19 - 05:40 AM

We were looking for a 'Celeidh' band for a wedding and when we googled we found a band featuring somebody we knew and in fact we had seen the band and realised that they would be ideal, and it turned out they are with an agency.

So the question is whether to approach the person we know direct or whether to go through the agency. It would be nice to go direct as presumably the musicians will get paid more if there is no agents' cut.

These are not people whose main living is got by playing music, though the standard is professional. But I'm not averse to them earning money using their skills, which are not in doubt. Moral problem. Answers on a postcard.

These agencies we discovered tend to put up videos and audio files of their acts, as do acts which don't use agents. So if people are booking acts blind just because they are with an agency, they should really be looking at the online evidence before making a decision.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 19 - 05:42 AM

One thing that agents do is provide publicity. Whether this merely preaches to the converted or widens the audience is debatable. You can be sure that agents can only have a positive influence- to what extent they encouraged a revival is hard to say.
The one difference between today and the sixties is the lack of folk exposure in the media. The Corries, Robin Hall and Jimmy Macgregor, Julie Felix, The Spinners to name but a few, they all had exposure regularly on prime time TV back in the sixties and groups such as the Strawbs, Pentangle, Steeleye Span all got into the hit parade in the 70's
Such things no longer happen today, so perhaps we owe a lot to agents for keeping the genre in the public eye. Again no real statistics to support the view, just a gut feeling.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 May 19 - 06:32 AM

We still have regular chart success from folk acts. Bellowhead, Show of Hands and Seth Lakeman to name but three have had chart success and are in the public eye through radio and TV. I imagine they all have agents who played a part in getting them where they are. Of course some may dispute that they are folk artists but the public perception is that they are and, as such, are contributing to the revival. So, in some cases, I think agents impact could be possitive. Just my 2p.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Mo the caller
Date: 06 May 19 - 06:42 AM

I've seen an agent's webpage for ceilidh bands that disguises the names of bands, so that people don't go direct. Word of mouth may be a better way to book - or maybe not. E.g. if someone approaches me to call a ceilidh I can tell them a bit about various bands and they can choose.
If you know a musician I don't see anything wrong with approaching them directly. If they have an exclusive arrangement with the agent, them it's up to them to say so, but I would have thought most would allow for personal bookings too.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 19 - 06:59 AM

The result of MacColl's experiences, which led to the composition song was interesting
He decided to set up the Singers Club (and wrote an article as to why he had)
According to Diz Dizley's book on the scene at the time, the agent absconded with the takings of the Club MacColl departed from (Ballads and Blues)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 May 19 - 07:52 AM

There's nothing wrong with approaching the band direct. They will tell you if the booking must be made through the agency. These aren't always exclusive arrangements, and it will depend on the terms of their agreement with the agent.

My own band mostly finds its own gigs but gets several referrals a year from an agency. They usually pay at least as well as ones we get ourselves, and that's after any agent's fee, which suggests that the agent is better at his job than we are (as you'd expect).

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 19 - 07:53 AM

Howard, there is no implication ,it is a simple question, if you interpret it that way that is your interpretation.
but since you made this remark, let me answer that question how do agents damage the scene.
there could be damage to the scene if it is in the hands of only a couple of agents, why? ,
because the scene POSSIBLY COULD be saturated with ONLY the people who they promote, that does not imo lead to a musically diverse scene. THIS COULD OF COURSE BE USED AS AN ARGUMENT FOR MORE AGENTS, because if more performers are represented by agents, there possibly could be more musical diversity , that again is debatable

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 19 - 07:55 AM

Howard your post gives an impression that agents represent ALL professional folk musicians , they do not, agents represent musicians who in their opinion are the most commercial

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 19 - 08:00 AM

At the same time agents do protect artists from being exploited, exploitation is rare in the uk folk revival ,but it does happen. in a period of 40 years i have been attemtedly ripped off three times on two of those occasions that would not have happened if i hahd had the protection of an agent

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 19 - 08:16 AM

I wonder if the folk revival would have occurred if contemporary folk was not present. Would an entirely fossilised genre attract anything like the present audience. Do folkies follow the tradition or compose and perform in traditional fashion. Does any performance in a folk club meet the rigid definition of traditional?

Unless a few broad definitions are accepted the arguments become circular and increasingly polarized.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 19 - 08:22 AM

Ians could you start a different thread if you wish to discuss an off topic matter

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 May 19 - 08:37 AM

Snerk

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Mo the caller
Date: 06 May 19 - 09:03 AM

Howard said "They usually pay at least as well as ones we get ourselves, and that's after any agent's fee, which suggests that the agent is better at his job than we are (as you'd expect)."
Or maybe it shows we are more soft-hearted and don't want to overcharge.

Mind you, I often use someone else to negotiate my fee - the band leader, if asked I say "I'll have the same as the musicians". So with some bands it's two thirds of what I get with others. I don't much like negotiating, I want people to be able to afford me for their party, charity etc. but don't want to be taken for granted (had too much of that as a Playgroup Supervisor).

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 06 May 19 - 10:11 AM

"to what extent are agents responsible for the present state of the UKFOLKREVIVAL?" How would one quantify that? That is, how will you know when you have the answer to your question?

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 May 19 - 10:52 AM

I remember one night I was in a music pub.

This guy came in with a cardboard box full of folk cds. He said, help yourself everybody...

Turns out he worked, or he ran or owned one of these three or four agencies that call the shots.

All these people had asked him to listen with a view to an audition. Had he listened to any of them.
He actually laughed at the mere idea.

The same attitude is there in Froots also ran column...you have to be able to buy into the folk aristocracy.

The nice thing about life is that when people withold their respect - you learn to live without it, and if you work at your craft - you will find audiences. And theres a whole country full of folk based musicians saying...fuck 'em.

Maybe not the unaccompanied ballad singers, Jim Carrol believes the folk world is clamouring for and being cruelly denied. But musicians influenced by the great folk scare artists of the 1960's and 70's. artists with something to say other than - look how different I am from the plebs.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Johnny J
Date: 06 May 19 - 11:21 AM

Agents don't always necessarily book the most commercially successful acts but they usually do have an agenda.

For instance, one well known Scottish agent relentlessly pushes "Americana" acts of varying quality. To be fair, they are usually very good for "their kind" but this certainly has had an influence on the booking policy of many folk clubs for good or ill and the more traditional/home grown acts often miss out as a result.

However, whatever the genre of music, many clubs and concert organisers can fall into the trap of just accepting what is on offer when they could and should be more pro active themselves as regards bookings... i.e. seeking out the artists and styles of music that they and their audiences really want.

Of course, they should still be prepared to try something new or different as well and, arguably, they may benefit from the knowledge and efforts of a good agent too.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 01 Apr 23 - 03:33 AM

I think that the uk folk revival has lost its way since MacColls death, that might be a co incidence it might not, his so called cut and dried pronouncements were partly responsible for singers like myself exploring our indigenous repertoire rather than singing American material, there were many positives to that and only one negative imo [ we did not sing Woody Guthrie songs or American social comment songs], imo since his death the uk folk revival has become more pop orientated, the importance of being a name or even having a certain name or having a famous name which Agents will use for coomercial ends
More latterly on occasions it has lost its direction and become an acoustic music club scene,Is that a result of Agents influence? or the fault of organisers in the pursuit of what they think will produce bums on seats or commercialism? or both?
.Is the pursuit of making more people aware of the music[ which brings in the Agent]more important than people playing a certain repertoire because they love the music they play and want to do it because they enjoy doing a job with skill?
Why, and what are the reasons for playing this music is it purely to make money, Agents Priority is making money for themselves and the people they represent AKA as commercialism

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 23 - 04:32 AM

How many agents have you met ?

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 01 Apr 23 - 04:50 AM

More than i could count on two hands, but how is that question relevant?

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 23 - 04:32 PM

Just wondered if you knew what you were talking about. And were all of them "in it for the money" ? I doubt very much that any agent putting acts on in folk clubs was ever earning a life-changing amount of money.
I knew several agents when I was booking for folk clubs in the 70sthrough to the 90s. Every single one of them did it first and foremost for the love of the music and the musicians.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 03:01 AM

That has not been my experience the ones i have known, have done and used a business model, that means they had staff to pay and overheads, so they had to be commercial
They were doing it for commercial reasons some of them at the same time liked folk music, if they were doing it primarily for the love of the music they would have gone bankrupt, necessity meant they had to be commercial.
End result, agents encourage commercialism
"Every single one of them did it first and foremost for the love of the music and the musicians".QUOTE
iF that was the case, they would be out of business very quickly.
That does not mean that they did not like folk music, but the nature of any business venture forces commercialism.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: r.padgett
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 03:46 AM

Well imv this is two part question ~
UK revival of what do you mean?

The original revival was grass roots singers in smokey pubs booking acts who were singing a mixture of traditional and pub songs and appreciative audience, though many for the beer and socialising on a Saturday night (for example)

Latterly commercial concert style clubs were able to be a bit more picky and booked more trusted acts that were gaining popularity for what they did

Adverting and the popularisation of the venue as ever very important

As an off shoot of this reading the vinyl sleeve notes and looking for the source singers (traddy) in my case set the likes of me looking for wider sources and learning what it's all about

So are the current 2023 doing the same? By and large yes and there is vast amount of material both traditional and singr song writer

I think that it is still important to listen to the established acts of the last 50 years, BUT look for the SOURCE singers/players as the blank page in a book of which there are many overlooks the "way" the original source singers actually delivered the words this is important

So their way or your way but be aware

Once the genre has been established it seems many current revivalists go the way of singer song writers as money can only flow from PRS which seems to be a broken piece of legislation ~and from sale of CDs

So where do Agentscome into all of this?

Looks to me that the scene fed by interest created and not so much by the folk club scene who want to do their own thing, but by concert clubs and the like

Agents? not sure if they do much to promote venues? but no doubt some one is and establishing the security overall of income needed to generate a living for the professional artists ~ it is hard life on the road and not secure ~ many continue to be part time and find other employment to supplement their living costs

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 04:20 AM

Latterly commercial concert style clubs were able to be a bit more picky and booked more trusted acts that were gaining popularity for what they did" quote
I would query your wording "more trusted acts", or those acts that they hyped up and promoted and on their books thus they became popular because they had commercial possibilities, not necessarily the most interesting or most competent musically, but were more appealing because they were closer to popular music and thus most commercial. the pursuit of commercialism can take the music further from its Roots

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 04:35 AM

"iF that was the case, they would be out of business very quickly".
Didn't happen.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 05:59 AM

it would be nice if you blame one single thing on the demise of the great folk revival - agents, people singing in American accents, rotten floor singers.

if just one thing were responsible, we could put it right - or somebody would have put it right by now.

In a way - all the faults we can all see are the consequence of the terrible fact that is staring us all in the face.
'Folk' as a great artistic movement has run out of steam. As a working concept, it doesn't excite artists of great significancem or audiences.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 09:36 AM

Wow! I'll tell that to Granny's Attic, Jackie Oates, Jim Moray, Mossy Christian, Alice Jones, Bryony Griffiths, Jim Findlay, Fay Hield, The Young uns, Jack Rutter, and numerous others. 'Don't bother Folks! We've all run out of steam, and you are not artists of great significance.' I'm sure they will be delighted with the heads-up.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 10:19 AM

I have to say that I am hard pushed to know any folk singer that employed an agent. I know that singer song writers and singers of folk songs sometimes did or do. Hopefully perhaps someone here can help me out with a few names.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 10:32 AM

Right on, Nick!

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 12:50 PM

okay! Its like the early days of Hollywood! So many stars! How do we live with all this excitement and creativity.
Small wonder the world is beating a path to our door.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 01:11 PM

They are indeed beating a path to some doors, Al. Nick's list is a good indication of which ones. Do I take it that you feel that some other paths are grassing over?

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 01:13 PM

Or of course, we could invite the world to join us and support Fay Hield in her laudable efforts to engage ethnic communities. That excites me. The music Excites me, researching the early collections excites me, and listening to Traditional singers excites me. I have not played in an empty Folk club in decades. You were there on one occasion Al. Where has your positivity gone? Yes, Folk song is specialist music but no more than Jazz. The difference is they don't beat themselves up.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 01:57 PM

The comparison with jazz is certainly interesting.
Incidenrally Nick, I believe we both started our recording careers at Steve Adams studio, near Polesworth.
I think your list of 'stars' is in many ways so indicative of where we are. They're not really household names, and jazz is similar. In the 60's we had Dylan and Miles Davis. Nowadays we have Richard Exhall and your good self. Both terrific musicians.

But as Thunderclap Newman said - Something in the Air - I'd take some convincing.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 02:33 PM

I started at David Morrow's studio for Dingles in 1978. Post Day trip to Bangor, I escaped gratefully to Steve Adams. Maybe nothing in the air, but plenty in the ears!

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 03:21 PM

From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 10:19 AM

I have to say that I am hard pushed to know any folk singer that employed an agent."
Martin Carthy. Vin Garbutt

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 03:36 PM

Hootennanny
There was also an agency called OGLESBY AND WINDER, That employed a number of folk singers was Bob Davenport one of them?
I do not think it has run out of steam, I get s much work as I want, I have a pension,
It is more of a question of it has changed, there are far less folk clubs booking guests and many more performers. there are less available venues owing to the change of pub tenancies to managed chains

One of the things that is needed imo is for organisers to organise their own events clubs, one day festivals etc, as people did in the early days of the revival,
if EFDSS had similiar funding to CCE it might or might not help, they might be able to run festivals or one festival like they did in the early days of Sidmouth ,Keele, loughborough Whitby etc

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 03:47 PM

I think singers clubs that allow people to perform unpractised are a double edged sword. I get the impression that some people have stopped going to some clubs for that reason.
One of the good things about guest booking clubs is that floor singers in my experience tended to perform better when there was a guest. Regardless of whether the guest was booked through an Agency or not

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 04:16 PM

I did recently do a club that was just like they were in the heyday.
Leigh on Sea Folk club, I had a great gig sold cds got a genuine encore Standard of floor singers was good.,room had good ambience and acoustics.
but as Nick will confirm the number of guest booking clubs like that are are fewer than they used to be.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 04:32 PM

So Folk Clubs at their best involved local communities .
.
I remember Swindon Folk Club when it was run by Ted Poole involved the irish community
But what seems to be happening now is that people are becoming isolated in their homes to some extent and not going out to socialise as much as they did
and why would they if they went to a singers club where people are fumbling through sheets of paper unpractised.
I would not mind so much if the performed from music if they had practised

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 05:03 PM

Sandy Glennon Perrot's Folly, Frank Bechofer. All did bookings for some very well known artists over the years. Not an easy job being an agent, you can't book your artiste in Penzance one night and Aberdeen the next, itineraries require a lot of planning.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 05:11 PM

I'd be hard pressed to think of an artist that eschewed the services of an agent.

In Brum in the '70s there was Les Ward who handled Jasper, The Timoneers and a whoever else. Les worked out of the The Boggery in Solihull.
Derek Grinell who workedout of the The Bell and Pump in Edgbaston.
Jim McPhee who worked out of the Hare and Hounds,Kingsheath.
Mike Billington who worked Alex Campbell and Dan Fone.
Annn Dex did all those pubs in Scandinavia.
Jack Denman in Nottingham handled a lot of the extra work for the television studios, as did City Varieties in Leeds. If you saw a folk group on telly or wanted to do walk on parts. I saw everyone in the folk world on the set of Boon, peak Practice, etc.
John Wall and a place in Cricklewood did all the Irish Venues.
Joe Stead 's Country and Folk agency handled Downes and Beer for a while and Bob Williamson, and they did their records on Joe's label.

Or maybe I imagined it....you're not my Mother!

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 06:53 PM

I attempted to join the Oglesby Winder agency. It came to nothing, mainly because they shut down, and I thought I could do better on my own. As I remember, I discovered the agency was generally disliked. They used to send quite insulting newsletters to club organisers, telling them not to approach their artists directly and to have fewer singers' nights. The result was several phone calls to the agency turned into out-and-out slanging matches. One such caller, Jim McPhee started his own agency and took on Jake Thackray, and eventually Martin Carthy. Jim was not much better, unfortunately. The Dingles Folk File was a bit disorganised, and left me stranded in Oxford on one occasion, having booked us into an RAF serviceman's night out. I decided a long time ago that agencies did more harm than good, and to be in total control of all aspects of your musical life. I think it will become clear to anybody in any area of the music business, that being a good singer or musician does not get you work. You need to be equally good at selling your abilities, and that has written off any number of acts who just can not be bothered to fight for their place in the queue. It depends on how much you want to be a singer, and what you are prepared to undergo to get there. Agents are only of use if you are getting so much work that you cannot organise your schedule. Ask Jacey Bedford, she will tell you the same thing. Better still read her article 'Why you do not need an agent'.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 07:50 PM

is this the ten minute argument?

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 08:50 PM

Over a period of forty years I booked hundreds of people for folk clubs, concerts and festivals.
In that time I only used three agencies - mostly for convenience of the artistes.
We had some amusing conversations (confrontations) and mostly agreed honourable draws.
Overall I think your first instinct was right Vic.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Apr 23 - 12:32 AM

Well agents aren't really for people like you Malcolm. They're for people who have been inside a folk club. A bloke with a chain of hotels in Kenya. People who have to direct a TV play about about a scene inside a pub . A string of Irish pubs in Valparaiso, or Exeter. Faraway places with strange sounding names.

Can you imagine such climes - places where the gospel of the 1954 definition of folk music is only whispered in hushed tones.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Apr 23 - 02:55 AM

sorry should read - never been inside a folk clubs

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 03 Apr 23 - 03:41 AM

from one of our best songwriters
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAS_Ro-nf7w

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 23 - 09:54 AM

How many singers and musicians were ever FORCED to join an agency ?

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Rigby
Date: 03 Apr 23 - 10:57 AM

I've done some freelance work for one of the larger UK folk festivals. The people who organise it do so because it's their job, not because they are folk fans. So I suspect they are quite reliant on agents like Alan Bearman to find suitable artists, especially when it comes to international acts.

They also have partnerships with arts organisations in other countries that sometimes seem to result in quota bookings of artists from those countries. That hasn't always worked out well.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 03 Apr 23 - 11:40 AM

Dear Guest, A lot less than the club organisers FORCED to use the agencies to get the acts they want. I do remember booking a well-known act into the Burnley Mechanics. I offered an extra fee to allow them to be recorded and broadcast by the BBC. The agent started squealing like a pig. I then went direct to the act and they were only too pleased. The agent started banging on about M.U. rates. The act was generally jarred off with the agent, and I ended up subcontracting to my own record label to circumvent the nonsense, I gave the recordings to the act on top of the payment, the Beeb paid me and I paid them. I did not make a penny other than my regular wage, but the tax burden fell upon me. I then had to sort out an expense release from the beeb and took a couple of Asprin and lay down in a darkened room. No, I do not like some agents when they have the I.Q. of a brick. Before anyone starts about M.U. rates, they were not geared toward self-employed musicians at that time and were understandably protecting their members against exploitation but have since learned that one size does not fit all. A well-known Folk promoter was given the job of attracting Folk musicians to the union and failed miserably despite being a well liked and respected man.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Apr 23 - 12:39 PM

I got a call from one agent asking me if I fancied pretending to be Irish for ten minutes. Apparently BBC radio was doing a series on Irish music in England.

Why would they ask me, I enquired. Well apparently I had been doing 'Irish' venues for about ten years for the agent. Another agent asked me to play at the NEC at an exhibition for Irish exports.
Both those gigs would have been good opportunities for an echt Deutsch Irishman/woman.

The point is, that because all kinds of odd sods turn to agents to sort out their needs - I would always advise performers to make agents aware of them and to do some work for them. Opportunities will come your way that you wouldn't have encountered just snuffling round with folkies. THe same goes for taking THe Stage.

of course if you're a folk megastar, you don't have to hustle to bring home the bacon, but for us sadly normal people occupying a very ordinary space in the world. if folk music is what you've decided to do with your life - you can't let the Lilliputians stop you.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 23 - 12:58 PM

You cannot have less than zero.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Apr 23 - 01:40 PM

my credit card company would give you an argument on that one.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: r.padgett
Date: 03 Apr 23 - 01:40 PM

So just how many Folk Agencies are there in UK?

How many top acts rely on Agents to sort out tours?

How many concert clubs are there that book Folk acts exclusively?

How many local authority venues and similar tha book folk acts, but not exclusively so?

How many folk clubs book folk acts through Agencies on an irregular or monthly basis

To what extent do Folk acts need to contact clubs and festival organiser for bookings personally? Looks like a can of worms really

Ray

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 03 Apr 23 - 01:50 PM

Al you are confusing agents here. Dick was talking about the Folk Scene. I have worked through numerous agencies in T.V. and Foreign work and found them all reasonably professional. At one time I was on the books of an agent who had represented Take That in the early days, and another who worked for Donna Summer. Dick was specific in naming the thread.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Apr 23 - 03:20 PM

Well I'm not sure I understand. Which is okay The folk scene wouldn't piss on me were I on fire, for about forty years, and I haven't been gigging for the last two.

So no. I probably don't have my finger on the pulse. I'm not sure which agents are supposed to be having a malign influence on the folk revival. I have listened to the various posts and looked at the title and I'm not much wiser.

However I know enough about the folkscene to know its quite capable of administering self inflicted wounds without external help from wicked agents.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 03 Apr 23 - 05:51 PM

Yes, it rather became a discussion on agents generally. To answer your question the malign ones have fallen by the wayside. Including the rather nasty piece of work who booked Folk acts into Germany, who should have fallen off a cliff, not by the wayside. The folk scene seems a kinder place now, and long may it remain so. Outside the Folk music world Equity is still doing sterling work.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 04 Apr 23 - 02:13 AM

Positive suggestions, join the EFDSS, and start organising one day events and running a monthly club, if one out of 3 perfomers did that there would be a lot more booking opportunities for performers.
EFDSS have an insurance for members who wish to organise

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 04 Apr 23 - 03:56 AM

Couldn't agree more!

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Apr 23 - 10:53 AM

I suppose every unilateral attempt is worthwhile. I think times have changed though. A lot of what unified us a country is gone.

I think sociologists of that era saw it happen, but not many of the rest of us. We were too much a part of it, too close. We were all fighting our corner, and we missed the precious point that the proletariat were staking a claim on the creative life of our country.

Will the revolution come again... I can hear the guns Fernando....

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 04 Apr 23 - 11:10 AM

That's a crepuscular view. Our demography and traditions are changing. The British tradition must now embrace the new British Asian culture. They have traditional singers by any definition, and some excellent singers and musicians. This is not new in these islands we have been embracing different cultures since the stone age. We should never view this as a threat at any time. We do not need a revolution, more a reconciliation.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 04 Apr 23 - 11:46 AM

Very good post Nick.
I made that point some 30 years ago at a discussion hosted by a presenter of folk on two who was married to Francis Lines
and my remarks were laughed at, in fact one organiser coonected with a festival made a racist remark, about how he had to live next to Asians.
Nobody took any notice of my suggestion

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 04 Apr 23 - 01:16 PM

Do you think attitudes have altered for the better? We have just lost Simon Emmerson who was a free thinker. I would love to see a concert at a festival with both Asian traditional singers sitting next to British revivalists swapping songs. To me, that is an inspiring idea.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 04 Apr 23 - 03:10 PM

I agree, and swapping with irish, we must try and break down barriers, And that how we also keep learning and improving

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 04 Apr 23 - 03:13 PM

Pete Castle did a recording [way back] of lord bateman using asian musicians.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 05 Apr 23 - 02:14 AM

With the late Arati Biswas. Apologies if I have misspelt her name.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Apr 23 - 06:17 AM

With respect I think the problem with what you're proposing is that trad folk music in England has a very solid middle class base which is wedded to obscurity.

There is very little of that missionary zeal evident of the kind that must have energised things like the Singing Together programmes for children.
Because MacColl and AL Lloyd were involved there was that socialist/we are building a new jerusalem post war spirit that you get in dramatists of the 1950's - Wesker, John Arden, Henry Livings etc.

Has it occurred to anybody for example to produce a nice book of British folk songs for children - with pictures - just so parents might sing well known folksongs with their children.
Instead we are talking about how we must embrace modal instrunents and scales. In short you've played this movie before and the audience walked out. Think of the Carthy/Swarbrick version of Byker Hill with all it rhythmic complexities. I can remember the OLd Crown in Digbeth trying to sing that en masse.....weird.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 05 Apr 23 - 08:30 AM

Cacil produced nice books of folk songs for children, we used to sing them at primary school, we also used to grope the girls whilst we were doing folk dancing, all that disappeared in the swinging sixties.
SO BILLYBRAGG is middle class? and wedded to obscurity?

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Apr 23 - 08:44 AM

Well I'm not sure of Mr Bragg's latest stuff. Even when he was from Barking, he never wrote about it. 17th century civil war heroes ( abit like some grammar school project) and the milKman of human kindness (nice little allusion to Macbeth slipped in there!)

However he has been a very successful writer and performer for most of my life. Financially he's more upper class than middle.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 05 Apr 23 - 10:50 AM

I would refer you to his work with the late Simon Emmerson and 'The Imagined Village'. A quick look on YouTube will tell you that Traditions and cultures are not incompatible. While we're on the subject of B.B. (who happens to be a friend of my stepsons) take a listen to 'Half English'. I think and hope this is where the future is.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Apr 23 - 07:24 PM

Has it occurred to anybody for example to produce a nice book of British folk songs for children - with pictures - just so parents might sing well known folksongs with their children.

It has occurred to a few people in Scotland. Thor Algren's book is one of the more recent ones.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Apr 23 - 08:44 PM

I think philosophically the problem with your position is that it assumes tradition is a sort of gold standard with no reference to living people.

Its the same sort of cultural imperialism that kids of our generation in 1950's learned at school. Little Bombo in the Belgian Congo was a pygmy living in a mud hut. But basically Little Bombo lived the same kind of life as us. A wife. Two point three kids. I love Lucy on the television, etc.

In your view of folk music - Indians are okay as long as they bang on their tablas, twang on their sitars. But what if they don't want to. Like Gerry Lockran didn't.Like Sunjay doesn't. Presumably Russians have to twang their balalaikas, and dance energetically wearing furry hats.

THe point is you don't know enough these people to know the difference between shit and sausages. Abd lets face it English working class and what they have produced in the last fifty years and has mesmerised the world - its not really worth considering.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: r.padgett
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 01:55 AM

Has it occurred to anybody for example to produce a nice book of British folk songs for children - with pictures - just so parents might sing well known folksongs with their children. ~ above

EFDSS may have this in mind and years ago produced booklets like "I'll sing you one oh" this booklet (I still have mine) had some great different regional songs, but aimed at beginners plus rather than children ~ a book of 25 to 50 could be a good idea and age related maybe in one compilation ~ anyone know if this is a goer a the moment?
Ray

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 02:45 AM

I'm sorry Al but that last post was not only Ill-informed but from my point of view bordered upon the offensive. I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and I would refer you to my article ' 'The Last of the singing pubs' in 'Living Tradition'. Also, you may want to re-read Dick Miles post above. Please do not presume to tell me or anybody else what we may or may not know about the British Asian community, or portray our attitudes to the same.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 03:54 AM

My friends know me as Kilroy.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 04:00 AM

THey've got a community, have they? Just the one...

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 04:36 AM

No offence is intended. Its just that theres a great profusion of 'folk' activity, and deep down we all know it misses the generality of people in the UK by a mile.

And in the only period that it looked like there might be a confluence of interest, well the most pissed off and irate , disruptive and rejecting parties were the very people you now ask us to put our trust in.

You trust their instincts. I don't.

And yes the EFFDS pamphlets were great, but they were very functional, I had more in mind a book like the ones you see of nursery rhymes and poems with nice pictures. The sort of thing a child might look in for the pictures and learn the songs by the by.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 04:55 AM

I think it best if I temporarily withdraw from this thread.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 08:30 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7zUKxSCYqo

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 10:27 AM

Don't. Feed. The. Troll.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 10:52 AM

The thread topic is to what extent are agents responsible for the present state of the UKFOLKREVIVAL?

Indians are okay as long as they bang on their tablas, twang on their sitars. You're just fine, Al, and I love the link you posted to. You are correct. (And to others taking affront and saying "you don't know" - a protest is no answer. Show us.) Al hit the nail on the head, music is made by the entire population - and different cultures bring richness to the music experience. (It's the same all over - note the music produced by Norah Jones, whose father was the sitar-playing Ravi Shankar.)

It it isn't just agents impacting any music, it's artists having agency.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 11:07 AM

It should be perfectly possible to subscribe to the politics of the right and still be a decent, civilised human being who isn’t a racist, a misogynist, or a homophobe, Bonzo. Why not give it a try?

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 11:24 AM

It is possible. Our tory MP is a very decent man.

The point I was trying to make is that not all Jamaicans play reggae. Not all Indians play ragas... Not all Irishmen dance jigs. There should be no compulsion or pressure to conform to what someone else tells you is your tradition.

Tradition means what we hand on. Its not just a crude racial stereotype. Both Backwoodsman and I are from Lincolnshire. Neither of us feel we want to sing in the style of Joseph Taylor, or play Lincolnshire bagpipes.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 12:08 PM

I have briefly returned to post this song. The equal of any Irish Band, the equal of the most skilled British traditional singer, decorations the envy of any Sean Nos singer, and these songs are being sung in Britain and have been for a couple of generations. They should be accepted as equal to our existing traditions and would sit very easily on a stage next to them on a stage. That's all.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkiAltwDsG4

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 12:32 PM

That's lovely, Nick.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 01:19 PM

Those people who wish to join and play their own tradItional or ethnic music should be welcomed and encouraged in the uk folk revival.
The EFDSS QUOTE
We champion folk music and dance at the heart of cultural life, all across England.
IT IS ABOUT BEING INCLUSIVE.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 01:28 PM

Not quite sure what you're getting at, Nick.
Sure its good - as is the cante hondo from Andalusia and as you say sean nos from Ireland - but honestly where do we fit in?

How many people sat behind their spinning wheels are going to relate to it. She's a pretty lady but would that song coming out of a radio have many listeners?

Whereas I can name half a dozen great song writers writing about their lives on the streets of England whose songs never got to grace the stage of our big folk festivals or rated a play on folk radio in their lifetimes. Songs which were comprehensible and entertaining to a room full of people interested enough to go to a folkclub.
And Backwoodsman could as well - cos I've heard him sing such songs.   If I'm supposed to be swooning with post colonial guilt, I'm not.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 03:28 PM

I know nothing of her tradition, so I wouldn't know how good it is by their standard. I do know it sounds good to me. But you're way off the mark Nick when you say ' decorations the envy of any Seán nos singer 'I think I know where you're coming from but I don't find the comparison helpful. Are you suggesting Seoamh Ó hÉanai, Nicolás Tóibin or Iarla Ó Lionárid could have or can improve their art by listening to Jasleen Aulakh ?

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 03:36 PM

In my opinion traditional music is relevant as is song writing.
I recently played and sang in a folk club in England and sang mostly traditional songs which were comprehensible and entertaining to a room full of people interested enough to go to a Folk club and i got an encore.
Last OCTOBER, I was on at a festival with Nick Dow, we both sang traditional songs, we both sold lots of cd and both performances were well received . in fact i have never heard Nick Dow sing or perform better. So I m not sure what you are trying to say other, your post seems to be divisive.
Being inclusive amongst other things means including tradtional song and song writers, whatever their ethnicity.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 04:07 PM

This has not always been the case in the past.
I remember having a conversation with Derek Brimstone years ago and he went on an on about how he would not book Martin C, because he drew his own audience who did not return to see other acts that Derek had booked.
So an example of a contemporary folk performer excluding a revivalist tradtional singer despite the fact that singer Martin filled hos club.
However I ran a club [despite the fact that i sing mainly traditional songs] that booked derek brimstone martin c, ewan macoll peggy seeger cyril tawney peter bond nic jones johnny handle richard digance. a mixture of trad contemporary, and i made it viable.
I know who had it right and who was inclusive

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 04:09 PM

I think this discussion has gone on long enough. If I close it here, it will end on a positive note. I think that's a good idea.
-Joe Offer-