uk revival and Agents

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 04:09 PM

I think this discussion has gone on long enough. If I close it here, it will end on a positive note. I think that's a good idea.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 04:07 PM

This has not always been the case in the past.
I remember having a conversation with Derek Brimstone years ago and he went on an on about how he would not book Martin C, because he drew his own audience who did not return to see other acts that Derek had booked.
So an example of a contemporary folk performer excluding a revivalist tradtional singer despite the fact that singer Martin filled hos club.
However I ran a club [despite the fact that i sing mainly traditional songs] that booked derek brimstone martin c, ewan macoll peggy seeger cyril tawney peter bond nic jones johnny handle richard digance. a mixture of trad contemporary, and i made it viable.
I know who had it right and who was inclusive

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 03:36 PM

In my opinion traditional music is relevant as is song writing.
I recently played and sang in a folk club in England and sang mostly traditional songs which were comprehensible and entertaining to a room full of people interested enough to go to a Folk club and i got an encore.
Last OCTOBER, I was on at a festival with Nick Dow, we both sang traditional songs, we both sold lots of cd and both performances were well received . in fact i have never heard Nick Dow sing or perform better. So I m not sure what you are trying to say other, your post seems to be divisive.
Being inclusive amongst other things means including tradtional song and song writers, whatever their ethnicity.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 03:28 PM

I know nothing of her tradition, so I wouldn't know how good it is by their standard. I do know it sounds good to me. But you're way off the mark Nick when you say ' decorations the envy of any Seán nos singer 'I think I know where you're coming from but I don't find the comparison helpful. Are you suggesting Seoamh Ó hÉanai, Nicolás Tóibin or Iarla Ó Lionárid could have or can improve their art by listening to Jasleen Aulakh ?

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 01:28 PM

Not quite sure what you're getting at, Nick.
Sure its good - as is the cante hondo from Andalusia and as you say sean nos from Ireland - but honestly where do we fit in?

How many people sat behind their spinning wheels are going to relate to it. She's a pretty lady but would that song coming out of a radio have many listeners?

Whereas I can name half a dozen great song writers writing about their lives on the streets of England whose songs never got to grace the stage of our big folk festivals or rated a play on folk radio in their lifetimes. Songs which were comprehensible and entertaining to a room full of people interested enough to go to a folkclub.
And Backwoodsman could as well - cos I've heard him sing such songs.   If I'm supposed to be swooning with post colonial guilt, I'm not.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 01:19 PM

Those people who wish to join and play their own tradItional or ethnic music should be welcomed and encouraged in the uk folk revival.
The EFDSS QUOTE
We champion folk music and dance at the heart of cultural life, all across England.
IT IS ABOUT BEING INCLUSIVE.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 12:32 PM

That's lovely, Nick.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 12:08 PM

I have briefly returned to post this song. The equal of any Irish Band, the equal of the most skilled British traditional singer, decorations the envy of any Sean Nos singer, and these songs are being sung in Britain and have been for a couple of generations. They should be accepted as equal to our existing traditions and would sit very easily on a stage next to them on a stage. That's all.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkiAltwDsG4

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 11:24 AM

It is possible. Our tory MP is a very decent man.

The point I was trying to make is that not all Jamaicans play reggae. Not all Indians play ragas... Not all Irishmen dance jigs. There should be no compulsion or pressure to conform to what someone else tells you is your tradition.

Tradition means what we hand on. Its not just a crude racial stereotype. Both Backwoodsman and I are from Lincolnshire. Neither of us feel we want to sing in the style of Joseph Taylor, or play Lincolnshire bagpipes.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 11:07 AM

It should be perfectly possible to subscribe to the politics of the right and still be a decent, civilised human being who isn’t a racist, a misogynist, or a homophobe, Bonzo. Why not give it a try?

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 10:52 AM

The thread topic is to what extent are agents responsible for the present state of the UKFOLKREVIVAL?

Indians are okay as long as they bang on their tablas, twang on their sitars. You're just fine, Al, and I love the link you posted to. You are correct. (And to others taking affront and saying "you don't know" - a protest is no answer. Show us.) Al hit the nail on the head, music is made by the entire population - and different cultures bring richness to the music experience. (It's the same all over - note the music produced by Norah Jones, whose father was the sitar-playing Ravi Shankar.)

It it isn't just agents impacting any music, it's artists having agency.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 10:27 AM

Don't. Feed. The. Troll.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 08:30 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7zUKxSCYqo

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 04:55 AM

I think it best if I temporarily withdraw from this thread.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 04:36 AM

No offence is intended. Its just that theres a great profusion of 'folk' activity, and deep down we all know it misses the generality of people in the UK by a mile.

And in the only period that it looked like there might be a confluence of interest, well the most pissed off and irate , disruptive and rejecting parties were the very people you now ask us to put our trust in.

You trust their instincts. I don't.

And yes the EFFDS pamphlets were great, but they were very functional, I had more in mind a book like the ones you see of nursery rhymes and poems with nice pictures. The sort of thing a child might look in for the pictures and learn the songs by the by.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 04:00 AM

THey've got a community, have they? Just the one...

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 03:54 AM

My friends know me as Kilroy.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 02:45 AM

I'm sorry Al but that last post was not only Ill-informed but from my point of view bordered upon the offensive. I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and I would refer you to my article ' 'The Last of the singing pubs' in 'Living Tradition'. Also, you may want to re-read Dick Miles post above. Please do not presume to tell me or anybody else what we may or may not know about the British Asian community, or portray our attitudes to the same.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: r.padgett
Date: 06 Apr 23 - 01:55 AM

Has it occurred to anybody for example to produce a nice book of British folk songs for children - with pictures - just so parents might sing well known folksongs with their children. ~ above

EFDSS may have this in mind and years ago produced booklets like "I'll sing you one oh" this booklet (I still have mine) had some great different regional songs, but aimed at beginners plus rather than children ~ a book of 25 to 50 could be a good idea and age related maybe in one compilation ~ anyone know if this is a goer a the moment?
Ray

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Apr 23 - 08:44 PM

I think philosophically the problem with your position is that it assumes tradition is a sort of gold standard with no reference to living people.

Its the same sort of cultural imperialism that kids of our generation in 1950's learned at school. Little Bombo in the Belgian Congo was a pygmy living in a mud hut. But basically Little Bombo lived the same kind of life as us. A wife. Two point three kids. I love Lucy on the television, etc.

In your view of folk music - Indians are okay as long as they bang on their tablas, twang on their sitars. But what if they don't want to. Like Gerry Lockran didn't.Like Sunjay doesn't. Presumably Russians have to twang their balalaikas, and dance energetically wearing furry hats.

THe point is you don't know enough these people to know the difference between shit and sausages. Abd lets face it English working class and what they have produced in the last fifty years and has mesmerised the world - its not really worth considering.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Apr 23 - 07:24 PM

Has it occurred to anybody for example to produce a nice book of British folk songs for children - with pictures - just so parents might sing well known folksongs with their children.

It has occurred to a few people in Scotland. Thor Algren's book is one of the more recent ones.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 05 Apr 23 - 10:50 AM

I would refer you to his work with the late Simon Emmerson and 'The Imagined Village'. A quick look on YouTube will tell you that Traditions and cultures are not incompatible. While we're on the subject of B.B. (who happens to be a friend of my stepsons) take a listen to 'Half English'. I think and hope this is where the future is.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Apr 23 - 08:44 AM

Well I'm not sure of Mr Bragg's latest stuff. Even when he was from Barking, he never wrote about it. 17th century civil war heroes ( abit like some grammar school project) and the milKman of human kindness (nice little allusion to Macbeth slipped in there!)

However he has been a very successful writer and performer for most of my life. Financially he's more upper class than middle.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 05 Apr 23 - 08:30 AM

Cacil produced nice books of folk songs for children, we used to sing them at primary school, we also used to grope the girls whilst we were doing folk dancing, all that disappeared in the swinging sixties.
SO BILLYBRAGG is middle class? and wedded to obscurity?

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Apr 23 - 06:17 AM

With respect I think the problem with what you're proposing is that trad folk music in England has a very solid middle class base which is wedded to obscurity.

There is very little of that missionary zeal evident of the kind that must have energised things like the Singing Together programmes for children.
Because MacColl and AL Lloyd were involved there was that socialist/we are building a new jerusalem post war spirit that you get in dramatists of the 1950's - Wesker, John Arden, Henry Livings etc.

Has it occurred to anybody for example to produce a nice book of British folk songs for children - with pictures - just so parents might sing well known folksongs with their children.
Instead we are talking about how we must embrace modal instrunents and scales. In short you've played this movie before and the audience walked out. Think of the Carthy/Swarbrick version of Byker Hill with all it rhythmic complexities. I can remember the OLd Crown in Digbeth trying to sing that en masse.....weird.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 05 Apr 23 - 02:14 AM

With the late Arati Biswas. Apologies if I have misspelt her name.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 04 Apr 23 - 03:13 PM

Pete Castle did a recording [way back] of lord bateman using asian musicians.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 04 Apr 23 - 03:10 PM

I agree, and swapping with irish, we must try and break down barriers, And that how we also keep learning and improving

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 04 Apr 23 - 01:16 PM

Do you think attitudes have altered for the better? We have just lost Simon Emmerson who was a free thinker. I would love to see a concert at a festival with both Asian traditional singers sitting next to British revivalists swapping songs. To me, that is an inspiring idea.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 04 Apr 23 - 11:46 AM

Very good post Nick.
I made that point some 30 years ago at a discussion hosted by a presenter of folk on two who was married to Francis Lines
and my remarks were laughed at, in fact one organiser coonected with a festival made a racist remark, about how he had to live next to Asians.
Nobody took any notice of my suggestion

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 04 Apr 23 - 11:10 AM

That's a crepuscular view. Our demography and traditions are changing. The British tradition must now embrace the new British Asian culture. They have traditional singers by any definition, and some excellent singers and musicians. This is not new in these islands we have been embracing different cultures since the stone age. We should never view this as a threat at any time. We do not need a revolution, more a reconciliation.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Apr 23 - 10:53 AM

I suppose every unilateral attempt is worthwhile. I think times have changed though. A lot of what unified us a country is gone.

I think sociologists of that era saw it happen, but not many of the rest of us. We were too much a part of it, too close. We were all fighting our corner, and we missed the precious point that the proletariat were staking a claim on the creative life of our country.

Will the revolution come again... I can hear the guns Fernando....

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 04 Apr 23 - 03:56 AM

Couldn't agree more!

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 04 Apr 23 - 02:13 AM

Positive suggestions, join the EFDSS, and start organising one day events and running a monthly club, if one out of 3 perfomers did that there would be a lot more booking opportunities for performers.
EFDSS have an insurance for members who wish to organise

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 03 Apr 23 - 05:51 PM

Yes, it rather became a discussion on agents generally. To answer your question the malign ones have fallen by the wayside. Including the rather nasty piece of work who booked Folk acts into Germany, who should have fallen off a cliff, not by the wayside. The folk scene seems a kinder place now, and long may it remain so. Outside the Folk music world Equity is still doing sterling work.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Apr 23 - 03:20 PM

Well I'm not sure I understand. Which is okay The folk scene wouldn't piss on me were I on fire, for about forty years, and I haven't been gigging for the last two.

So no. I probably don't have my finger on the pulse. I'm not sure which agents are supposed to be having a malign influence on the folk revival. I have listened to the various posts and looked at the title and I'm not much wiser.

However I know enough about the folkscene to know its quite capable of administering self inflicted wounds without external help from wicked agents.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 03 Apr 23 - 01:50 PM

Al you are confusing agents here. Dick was talking about the Folk Scene. I have worked through numerous agencies in T.V. and Foreign work and found them all reasonably professional. At one time I was on the books of an agent who had represented Take That in the early days, and another who worked for Donna Summer. Dick was specific in naming the thread.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: r.padgett
Date: 03 Apr 23 - 01:40 PM

So just how many Folk Agencies are there in UK?

How many top acts rely on Agents to sort out tours?

How many concert clubs are there that book Folk acts exclusively?

How many local authority venues and similar tha book folk acts, but not exclusively so?

How many folk clubs book folk acts through Agencies on an irregular or monthly basis

To what extent do Folk acts need to contact clubs and festival organiser for bookings personally? Looks like a can of worms really

Ray

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Apr 23 - 01:40 PM

my credit card company would give you an argument on that one.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 23 - 12:58 PM

You cannot have less than zero.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Apr 23 - 12:39 PM

I got a call from one agent asking me if I fancied pretending to be Irish for ten minutes. Apparently BBC radio was doing a series on Irish music in England.

Why would they ask me, I enquired. Well apparently I had been doing 'Irish' venues for about ten years for the agent. Another agent asked me to play at the NEC at an exhibition for Irish exports.
Both those gigs would have been good opportunities for an echt Deutsch Irishman/woman.

The point is, that because all kinds of odd sods turn to agents to sort out their needs - I would always advise performers to make agents aware of them and to do some work for them. Opportunities will come your way that you wouldn't have encountered just snuffling round with folkies. THe same goes for taking THe Stage.

of course if you're a folk megastar, you don't have to hustle to bring home the bacon, but for us sadly normal people occupying a very ordinary space in the world. if folk music is what you've decided to do with your life - you can't let the Lilliputians stop you.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 03 Apr 23 - 11:40 AM

Dear Guest, A lot less than the club organisers FORCED to use the agencies to get the acts they want. I do remember booking a well-known act into the Burnley Mechanics. I offered an extra fee to allow them to be recorded and broadcast by the BBC. The agent started squealing like a pig. I then went direct to the act and they were only too pleased. The agent started banging on about M.U. rates. The act was generally jarred off with the agent, and I ended up subcontracting to my own record label to circumvent the nonsense, I gave the recordings to the act on top of the payment, the Beeb paid me and I paid them. I did not make a penny other than my regular wage, but the tax burden fell upon me. I then had to sort out an expense release from the beeb and took a couple of Asprin and lay down in a darkened room. No, I do not like some agents when they have the I.Q. of a brick. Before anyone starts about M.U. rates, they were not geared toward self-employed musicians at that time and were understandably protecting their members against exploitation but have since learned that one size does not fit all. A well-known Folk promoter was given the job of attracting Folk musicians to the union and failed miserably despite being a well liked and respected man.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Rigby
Date: 03 Apr 23 - 10:57 AM

I've done some freelance work for one of the larger UK folk festivals. The people who organise it do so because it's their job, not because they are folk fans. So I suspect they are quite reliant on agents like Alan Bearman to find suitable artists, especially when it comes to international acts.

They also have partnerships with arts organisations in other countries that sometimes seem to result in quota bookings of artists from those countries. That hasn't always worked out well.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 23 - 09:54 AM

How many singers and musicians were ever FORCED to join an agency ?

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 03 Apr 23 - 03:41 AM

from one of our best songwriters
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAS_Ro-nf7w

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Apr 23 - 02:55 AM

sorry should read - never been inside a folk clubs

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Apr 23 - 12:32 AM

Well agents aren't really for people like you Malcolm. They're for people who have been inside a folk club. A bloke with a chain of hotels in Kenya. People who have to direct a TV play about about a scene inside a pub . A string of Irish pubs in Valparaiso, or Exeter. Faraway places with strange sounding names.

Can you imagine such climes - places where the gospel of the 1954 definition of folk music is only whispered in hushed tones.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 08:50 PM

Over a period of forty years I booked hundreds of people for folk clubs, concerts and festivals.
In that time I only used three agencies - mostly for convenience of the artistes.
We had some amusing conversations (confrontations) and mostly agreed honourable draws.
Overall I think your first instinct was right Vic.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 07:50 PM

is this the ten minute argument?

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 06:53 PM

I attempted to join the Oglesby Winder agency. It came to nothing, mainly because they shut down, and I thought I could do better on my own. As I remember, I discovered the agency was generally disliked. They used to send quite insulting newsletters to club organisers, telling them not to approach their artists directly and to have fewer singers' nights. The result was several phone calls to the agency turned into out-and-out slanging matches. One such caller, Jim McPhee started his own agency and took on Jake Thackray, and eventually Martin Carthy. Jim was not much better, unfortunately. The Dingles Folk File was a bit disorganised, and left me stranded in Oxford on one occasion, having booked us into an RAF serviceman's night out. I decided a long time ago that agencies did more harm than good, and to be in total control of all aspects of your musical life. I think it will become clear to anybody in any area of the music business, that being a good singer or musician does not get you work. You need to be equally good at selling your abilities, and that has written off any number of acts who just can not be bothered to fight for their place in the queue. It depends on how much you want to be a singer, and what you are prepared to undergo to get there. Agents are only of use if you are getting so much work that you cannot organise your schedule. Ask Jacey Bedford, she will tell you the same thing. Better still read her article 'Why you do not need an agent'.