uk revival and Agents

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 05:11 PM

I'd be hard pressed to think of an artist that eschewed the services of an agent.

In Brum in the '70s there was Les Ward who handled Jasper, The Timoneers and a whoever else. Les worked out of the The Boggery in Solihull.
Derek Grinell who workedout of the The Bell and Pump in Edgbaston.
Jim McPhee who worked out of the Hare and Hounds,Kingsheath.
Mike Billington who worked Alex Campbell and Dan Fone.
Annn Dex did all those pubs in Scandinavia.
Jack Denman in Nottingham handled a lot of the extra work for the television studios, as did City Varieties in Leeds. If you saw a folk group on telly or wanted to do walk on parts. I saw everyone in the folk world on the set of Boon, peak Practice, etc.
John Wall and a place in Cricklewood did all the Irish Venues.
Joe Stead 's Country and Folk agency handled Downes and Beer for a while and Bob Williamson, and they did their records on Joe's label.

Or maybe I imagined it....you're not my Mother!

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 05:03 PM

Sandy Glennon Perrot's Folly, Frank Bechofer. All did bookings for some very well known artists over the years. Not an easy job being an agent, you can't book your artiste in Penzance one night and Aberdeen the next, itineraries require a lot of planning.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 04:32 PM

So Folk Clubs at their best involved local communities .
.
I remember Swindon Folk Club when it was run by Ted Poole involved the irish community
But what seems to be happening now is that people are becoming isolated in their homes to some extent and not going out to socialise as much as they did
and why would they if they went to a singers club where people are fumbling through sheets of paper unpractised.
I would not mind so much if the performed from music if they had practised

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 04:16 PM

I did recently do a club that was just like they were in the heyday.
Leigh on Sea Folk club, I had a great gig sold cds got a genuine encore Standard of floor singers was good.,room had good ambience and acoustics.
but as Nick will confirm the number of guest booking clubs like that are are fewer than they used to be.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 03:47 PM

I think singers clubs that allow people to perform unpractised are a double edged sword. I get the impression that some people have stopped going to some clubs for that reason.
One of the good things about guest booking clubs is that floor singers in my experience tended to perform better when there was a guest. Regardless of whether the guest was booked through an Agency or not

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 03:36 PM

Hootennanny
There was also an agency called OGLESBY AND WINDER, That employed a number of folk singers was Bob Davenport one of them?
I do not think it has run out of steam, I get s much work as I want, I have a pension,
It is more of a question of it has changed, there are far less folk clubs booking guests and many more performers. there are less available venues owing to the change of pub tenancies to managed chains

One of the things that is needed imo is for organisers to organise their own events clubs, one day festivals etc, as people did in the early days of the revival,
if EFDSS had similiar funding to CCE it might or might not help, they might be able to run festivals or one festival like they did in the early days of Sidmouth ,Keele, loughborough Whitby etc

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 03:21 PM

From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 10:19 AM

I have to say that I am hard pushed to know any folk singer that employed an agent."
Martin Carthy. Vin Garbutt

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 02:33 PM

I started at David Morrow's studio for Dingles in 1978. Post Day trip to Bangor, I escaped gratefully to Steve Adams. Maybe nothing in the air, but plenty in the ears!

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 01:57 PM

The comparison with jazz is certainly interesting.
Incidenrally Nick, I believe we both started our recording careers at Steve Adams studio, near Polesworth.
I think your list of 'stars' is in many ways so indicative of where we are. They're not really household names, and jazz is similar. In the 60's we had Dylan and Miles Davis. Nowadays we have Richard Exhall and your good self. Both terrific musicians.

But as Thunderclap Newman said - Something in the Air - I'd take some convincing.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 01:13 PM

Or of course, we could invite the world to join us and support Fay Hield in her laudable efforts to engage ethnic communities. That excites me. The music Excites me, researching the early collections excites me, and listening to Traditional singers excites me. I have not played in an empty Folk club in decades. You were there on one occasion Al. Where has your positivity gone? Yes, Folk song is specialist music but no more than Jazz. The difference is they don't beat themselves up.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 01:11 PM

They are indeed beating a path to some doors, Al. Nick's list is a good indication of which ones. Do I take it that you feel that some other paths are grassing over?

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 12:50 PM

okay! Its like the early days of Hollywood! So many stars! How do we live with all this excitement and creativity.
Small wonder the world is beating a path to our door.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 10:32 AM

Right on, Nick!

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 10:19 AM

I have to say that I am hard pushed to know any folk singer that employed an agent. I know that singer song writers and singers of folk songs sometimes did or do. Hopefully perhaps someone here can help me out with a few names.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 09:36 AM

Wow! I'll tell that to Granny's Attic, Jackie Oates, Jim Moray, Mossy Christian, Alice Jones, Bryony Griffiths, Jim Findlay, Fay Hield, The Young uns, Jack Rutter, and numerous others. 'Don't bother Folks! We've all run out of steam, and you are not artists of great significance.' I'm sure they will be delighted with the heads-up.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 05:59 AM

it would be nice if you blame one single thing on the demise of the great folk revival - agents, people singing in American accents, rotten floor singers.

if just one thing were responsible, we could put it right - or somebody would have put it right by now.

In a way - all the faults we can all see are the consequence of the terrible fact that is staring us all in the face.
'Folk' as a great artistic movement has run out of steam. As a working concept, it doesn't excite artists of great significancem or audiences.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 04:35 AM

"iF that was the case, they would be out of business very quickly".
Didn't happen.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 04:20 AM

Latterly commercial concert style clubs were able to be a bit more picky and booked more trusted acts that were gaining popularity for what they did" quote
I would query your wording "more trusted acts", or those acts that they hyped up and promoted and on their books thus they became popular because they had commercial possibilities, not necessarily the most interesting or most competent musically, but were more appealing because they were closer to popular music and thus most commercial. the pursuit of commercialism can take the music further from its Roots

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: r.padgett
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 03:46 AM

Well imv this is two part question ~
UK revival of what do you mean?

The original revival was grass roots singers in smokey pubs booking acts who were singing a mixture of traditional and pub songs and appreciative audience, though many for the beer and socialising on a Saturday night (for example)

Latterly commercial concert style clubs were able to be a bit more picky and booked more trusted acts that were gaining popularity for what they did

Adverting and the popularisation of the venue as ever very important

As an off shoot of this reading the vinyl sleeve notes and looking for the source singers (traddy) in my case set the likes of me looking for wider sources and learning what it's all about

So are the current 2023 doing the same? By and large yes and there is vast amount of material both traditional and singr song writer

I think that it is still important to listen to the established acts of the last 50 years, BUT look for the SOURCE singers/players as the blank page in a book of which there are many overlooks the "way" the original source singers actually delivered the words this is important

So their way or your way but be aware

Once the genre has been established it seems many current revivalists go the way of singer song writers as money can only flow from PRS which seems to be a broken piece of legislation ~and from sale of CDs

So where do Agentscome into all of this?

Looks to me that the scene fed by interest created and not so much by the folk club scene who want to do their own thing, but by concert clubs and the like

Agents? not sure if they do much to promote venues? but no doubt some one is and establishing the security overall of income needed to generate a living for the professional artists ~ it is hard life on the road and not secure ~ many continue to be part time and find other employment to supplement their living costs

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 03:01 AM

That has not been my experience the ones i have known, have done and used a business model, that means they had staff to pay and overheads, so they had to be commercial
They were doing it for commercial reasons some of them at the same time liked folk music, if they were doing it primarily for the love of the music they would have gone bankrupt, necessity meant they had to be commercial.
End result, agents encourage commercialism
"Every single one of them did it first and foremost for the love of the music and the musicians".QUOTE
iF that was the case, they would be out of business very quickly.
That does not mean that they did not like folk music, but the nature of any business venture forces commercialism.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 23 - 04:32 PM

Just wondered if you knew what you were talking about. And were all of them "in it for the money" ? I doubt very much that any agent putting acts on in folk clubs was ever earning a life-changing amount of money.
I knew several agents when I was booking for folk clubs in the 70sthrough to the 90s. Every single one of them did it first and foremost for the love of the music and the musicians.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 01 Apr 23 - 04:50 AM

More than i could count on two hands, but how is that question relevant?

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 23 - 04:32 AM

How many agents have you met ?

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 01 Apr 23 - 03:33 AM

I think that the uk folk revival has lost its way since MacColls death, that might be a co incidence it might not, his so called cut and dried pronouncements were partly responsible for singers like myself exploring our indigenous repertoire rather than singing American material, there were many positives to that and only one negative imo [ we did not sing Woody Guthrie songs or American social comment songs], imo since his death the uk folk revival has become more pop orientated, the importance of being a name or even having a certain name or having a famous name which Agents will use for coomercial ends
More latterly on occasions it has lost its direction and become an acoustic music club scene,Is that a result of Agents influence? or the fault of organisers in the pursuit of what they think will produce bums on seats or commercialism? or both?
.Is the pursuit of making more people aware of the music[ which brings in the Agent]more important than people playing a certain repertoire because they love the music they play and want to do it because they enjoy doing a job with skill?
Why, and what are the reasons for playing this music is it purely to make money, Agents Priority is making money for themselves and the people they represent AKA as commercialism

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Johnny J
Date: 06 May 19 - 11:21 AM

Agents don't always necessarily book the most commercially successful acts but they usually do have an agenda.

For instance, one well known Scottish agent relentlessly pushes "Americana" acts of varying quality. To be fair, they are usually very good for "their kind" but this certainly has had an influence on the booking policy of many folk clubs for good or ill and the more traditional/home grown acts often miss out as a result.

However, whatever the genre of music, many clubs and concert organisers can fall into the trap of just accepting what is on offer when they could and should be more pro active themselves as regards bookings... i.e. seeking out the artists and styles of music that they and their audiences really want.

Of course, they should still be prepared to try something new or different as well and, arguably, they may benefit from the knowledge and efforts of a good agent too.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 May 19 - 10:52 AM

I remember one night I was in a music pub.

This guy came in with a cardboard box full of folk cds. He said, help yourself everybody...

Turns out he worked, or he ran or owned one of these three or four agencies that call the shots.

All these people had asked him to listen with a view to an audition. Had he listened to any of them.
He actually laughed at the mere idea.

The same attitude is there in Froots also ran column...you have to be able to buy into the folk aristocracy.

The nice thing about life is that when people withold their respect - you learn to live without it, and if you work at your craft - you will find audiences. And theres a whole country full of folk based musicians saying...fuck 'em.

Maybe not the unaccompanied ballad singers, Jim Carrol believes the folk world is clamouring for and being cruelly denied. But musicians influenced by the great folk scare artists of the 1960's and 70's. artists with something to say other than - look how different I am from the plebs.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 06 May 19 - 10:11 AM

"to what extent are agents responsible for the present state of the UKFOLKREVIVAL?" How would one quantify that? That is, how will you know when you have the answer to your question?

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Mo the caller
Date: 06 May 19 - 09:03 AM

Howard said "They usually pay at least as well as ones we get ourselves, and that's after any agent's fee, which suggests that the agent is better at his job than we are (as you'd expect)."
Or maybe it shows we are more soft-hearted and don't want to overcharge.

Mind you, I often use someone else to negotiate my fee - the band leader, if asked I say "I'll have the same as the musicians". So with some bands it's two thirds of what I get with others. I don't much like negotiating, I want people to be able to afford me for their party, charity etc. but don't want to be taken for granted (had too much of that as a Playgroup Supervisor).

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 May 19 - 08:37 AM

Snerk

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 19 - 08:22 AM

Ians could you start a different thread if you wish to discuss an off topic matter

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 19 - 08:16 AM

I wonder if the folk revival would have occurred if contemporary folk was not present. Would an entirely fossilised genre attract anything like the present audience. Do folkies follow the tradition or compose and perform in traditional fashion. Does any performance in a folk club meet the rigid definition of traditional?

Unless a few broad definitions are accepted the arguments become circular and increasingly polarized.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 19 - 08:00 AM

At the same time agents do protect artists from being exploited, exploitation is rare in the uk folk revival ,but it does happen. in a period of 40 years i have been attemtedly ripped off three times on two of those occasions that would not have happened if i hahd had the protection of an agent

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 19 - 07:55 AM

Howard your post gives an impression that agents represent ALL professional folk musicians , they do not, agents represent musicians who in their opinion are the most commercial

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 19 - 07:53 AM

Howard, there is no implication ,it is a simple question, if you interpret it that way that is your interpretation.
but since you made this remark, let me answer that question how do agents damage the scene.
there could be damage to the scene if it is in the hands of only a couple of agents, why? ,
because the scene POSSIBLY COULD be saturated with ONLY the people who they promote, that does not imo lead to a musically diverse scene. THIS COULD OF COURSE BE USED AS AN ARGUMENT FOR MORE AGENTS, because if more performers are represented by agents, there possibly could be more musical diversity , that again is debatable

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 May 19 - 07:52 AM

There's nothing wrong with approaching the band direct. They will tell you if the booking must be made through the agency. These aren't always exclusive arrangements, and it will depend on the terms of their agreement with the agent.

My own band mostly finds its own gigs but gets several referrals a year from an agency. They usually pay at least as well as ones we get ourselves, and that's after any agent's fee, which suggests that the agent is better at his job than we are (as you'd expect).

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 19 - 06:59 AM

The result of MacColl's experiences, which led to the composition song was interesting
He decided to set up the Singers Club (and wrote an article as to why he had)
According to Diz Dizley's book on the scene at the time, the agent absconded with the takings of the Club MacColl departed from (Ballads and Blues)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Mo the caller
Date: 06 May 19 - 06:42 AM

I've seen an agent's webpage for ceilidh bands that disguises the names of bands, so that people don't go direct. Word of mouth may be a better way to book - or maybe not. E.g. if someone approaches me to call a ceilidh I can tell them a bit about various bands and they can choose.
If you know a musician I don't see anything wrong with approaching them directly. If they have an exclusive arrangement with the agent, them it's up to them to say so, but I would have thought most would allow for personal bookings too.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 May 19 - 06:32 AM

We still have regular chart success from folk acts. Bellowhead, Show of Hands and Seth Lakeman to name but three have had chart success and are in the public eye through radio and TV. I imagine they all have agents who played a part in getting them where they are. Of course some may dispute that they are folk artists but the public perception is that they are and, as such, are contributing to the revival. So, in some cases, I think agents impact could be possitive. Just my 2p.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 19 - 05:42 AM

One thing that agents do is provide publicity. Whether this merely preaches to the converted or widens the audience is debatable. You can be sure that agents can only have a positive influence- to what extent they encouraged a revival is hard to say.
The one difference between today and the sixties is the lack of folk exposure in the media. The Corries, Robin Hall and Jimmy Macgregor, Julie Felix, The Spinners to name but a few, they all had exposure regularly on prime time TV back in the sixties and groups such as the Strawbs, Pentangle, Steeleye Span all got into the hit parade in the 70's
Such things no longer happen today, so perhaps we owe a lot to agents for keeping the genre in the public eye. Again no real statistics to support the view, just a gut feeling.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST,Shaman
Date: 06 May 19 - 05:40 AM

We were looking for a 'Celeidh' band for a wedding and when we googled we found a band featuring somebody we knew and in fact we had seen the band and realised that they would be ideal, and it turned out they are with an agency.

So the question is whether to approach the person we know direct or whether to go through the agency. It would be nice to go direct as presumably the musicians will get paid more if there is no agents' cut.

These are not people whose main living is got by playing music, though the standard is professional. But I'm not averse to them earning money using their skills, which are not in doubt. Moral problem. Answers on a postcard.

These agencies we discovered tend to put up videos and audio files of their acts, as do acts which don't use agents. So if people are booking acts blind just because they are with an agency, they should really be looking at the online evidence before making a decision.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 19 - 05:38 AM

Sigh.......
Much rather have mid-Atlantic Dylanese, I'm sure
The song was a piece of satire - you're meant to laugh
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 May 19 - 05:37 AM

The original question contains the implication that somehow agents are damaging the folk scene. I'm not quite sure how. They will only take on clients who they believe they will be able to find gigs for, so these are presumably the most successful and (whilst this doesn't always follow) the most talented. Is it being suggested that these performers don't deserve the gigs they are getting, or is it sour grapes that they are getting more work than those without an agent?

I believe the folk revival is underpinned by its professional musicians. Without them we'd just be a bunch of amateurs singing the same handful songs to each other. No doubt someone will pop up to say that is what folk music should be, but unless you are fortunate enough to have someone of exceptional talent in your circle it probably wouldn't be very inspiring, in an age when we have many other sources of entertainment.

Whilst I have taken some inspiration from fellow club musicians, it has come mostly from the professionals I admire. These are the ones who dig about in RVML to find new and interesting songs and work them up into a performance, which the rest of us can then steal. They are the ones who develop techniques and styles appropriate to the music. They are the ones with the time and motivation to think deeply about the music, to explore new avenues and to take risks. Most of the rest of us only follow in their wake. They are the ones who make albums which spread this new material and inspire others. If it weren't for them I'd be a far more limited musician than I am, with a much smaller repertoire.

No one is getting rich from playing folk music. A few probably make a decent living, many only just scrape by but keep doing it because they love it. I suspect nearly all of them could probably have made a far better for themselves had they chosen another profession. It's a tough job, involving large amounts of travel and sleeping on people's sofas, and for many the task of chasing up gigs is the most unpleasant aspect. If they choose to use agents to help them that is entirely understandable. If those agents are then successful in getting work for their clients they are only doing their job.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 19 - 05:30 AM

Re Jim's post; I got as far as 'just a simple modest chap', noted the false accent and fell about laughing. Fake folk with banjo.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 19 - 05:24 AM

IANS said Surely agents promote commercial acts.
they promote their own commercial acts, true, they also through promotion, create commercial acts.
now if they promote and create STARS in the same way that pops stars are created then logically they have an influence on the uk folk revival.
I am not going to comment on whether this is good or bad,but just remark that this is happening, and if it is happening then agents are not just getting work for artists but are shaping and influencing the uk folk revival to some extent., to what extent that is happening compared to thirty years ago is debatable

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 May 19 - 04:46 AM

to be honest, I had a great affection for the old time agents. The ones on the folkscene never did me any favours. But I understood that, I wasn't showbiz enough for them. The acts were mainly entertainers who relied on getting rebooked by the working class audiences who frequented folk clubs.


The new breed. I just think they're bad news for everybody. They're part of the middle cass land grab.

Folk music is now a bit like the civil service. A safe career option for middle class kids.

The clerical officers and assistants are the ordinary joes who sit in sessions, provide the support acts and PA free for the privilege of rubbing shoulders with professionals.

The executive officers are a few posh gits. Musically accomplished but not much cop at communicating with an audience. Making records that don't sell. Gigs for college kids who know nowt, festival gigs for foreigners, dire programmes that no one watches for BBC4.

Still as Hyman Roth says in Godfather 2. this is the business we are engaged in.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: r.padgett
Date: 06 May 19 - 04:39 AM

I would say that they can be very useful to visiting folk guests from overseas in fixing up tours at Concert clubs and other venues

Not sure about the word Revival in this question

Ray

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 19 - 04:29 AM

No musician is forced to employ an "agent" if they don't want to.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 May 19 - 04:13 AM

Aye Jim Carroll, and not a lot has changed since that was written. Only difference now, is that the agents have colleges and universities training up grist for their mills. Much less travel involved for them, on recruiting drives ;)

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 19 - 04:08 AM

Surely agents promote commercial acts. They are not running a charitable organisation. It is all about bums on seats, nothing more nothing less.
No audience, no dinaro. It is all about entertainment(talent), in this case a small niche in the entire spectrum.
Those with talent and ambition thrive, others do not. The agents grease the wheels of the process and speed the road to stardom.
The vast majority will listen to music/songs that appeal to then whether it be dylan, one direction, or Ewan MacColl. It is a tiny tiny minority that wish to strip the carcase and divinate with the bones of a restricted genre.

Subject: RE: uk revival and Agents
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 19 - 03:04 AM

A PIECE OF HISTORY ON THE SUBJECT
Jim Carroll