BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,Femme Fatale
Date: 11 Aug 19 - 06:45 AM

On the need for definitions, my thoughts are as follows:

1 Jim's definitions usually seem to be framed so as to include the works of Ewan Maccoll etc, a revivalist who was 'in the business' - and probably suffer in terms of this.

2 Jim's points about definitions are based on what seems to be a naïve view of the nature of definitions, especially when it comes to defining a complex cultural phenomenon such as 'folk music' - whatever that is.

Have a ponder of this introduction to the problem:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/definitions/

Other than that, have a nice day, and enjoy the suggested listening in the opening link.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,Femme Fatale
Date: 11 Aug 19 - 06:03 AM

Thanks, Freddy Headey, for pointing me in the direction of some enjoyable pieces. I get confused and a tad annoyed when people decry 'commercialisation' of 'folk revivals'. Take away any commercial element and you have more or less nothing left: no venues involving payment, no music lessons involving payment, no recordings involving payment (including paying for the equipment etc), no publishing of 'research' on web sites which at the end of the day are paid for not free. The three drunks in the bar were presumably drunk on beer they had paid for, in premises for which rent was paid.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 11 Aug 19 - 05:46 AM

Guest - my comment wasn't aimed at you - it was aimed at those who belittle the achievements and musical talent of others.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,alan whittle
Date: 11 Aug 19 - 05:14 AM

I thought I was trying to be positive.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Aug 19 - 03:46 AM

its all a codswallop or as they used to say in suffolk a load of squit, and emphasise how the uk folk revival is being diverted by some fools into a musical railway siding.
i was in a bar last week in rural ireland playing music and was joined by some instrumentalists aged nine years old or thereabouts who were excellent and playing purely for enjoyment.
This idea of turning the uk folk revival into some sort of musical reality show benefits the roots of the music little, it benefits the agents bent on commercialising the music.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 06:00 PM

I just ignore them and get on with enjoying folk music.

There are far more important things in life to get worked up about.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 02:23 PM

It would be nice if instead of criticising these musicians some of you were more supportive of them. I find the narrow minded, anal attitude on here truly appalling sometimes. A shame as there are many worthwhile contributions from people who love music and don't belittle mostly younger musicians' contributions to the rich tapestry of folk music in the UK

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,alan whittle
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 12:31 PM

well lets hope we're all wrong and that folk music and the BBC produce something or other that's worthwhile.

I tend to think the music will endure, whatever crimes are committed against it.

People need to express themselves through unsupervised forms of music making and aongwriting. And that will be folk music - whether we grant it that term or not.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 12:16 PM

dead right Akenton, it's showbiz- the commercial abuse of the people's music carries on but this crap has little to do with OUR music

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 09:26 AM

It's not even a showcase, it's a coffin. The essence of folk music was always audience participation, regardless of whether that audience was hundreds or three folk in a bar; and participation didn't only mean beltin' oot the choruses, but sharing the feelings of the singer or performer....Ive heard wee drunk men bringing a rowdy pub to silence and many to tears by what they projected in the way of real honest tae god music.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 09:01 AM

I agree with vic and Johnny a showcase would be a far better description.
The winner of the folk awards is the best entrant to the show,not the best performer on the scene.
My choice of best performer may be totally different to yours,not better or worse,just different.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: Vic Smith
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 08:15 AM

we would be just as well to do away with the competitive side of things and call it a "Show Case" as they really just represent the needs and whims of the media, commercial interested organisations and so on.

Well said Johnny! A showcase is what they are. The nominees all come from vested interests and many valued contributors young and old do not find themselves ever mentioned. Have people like Martyn Wyndham-Read and Sara Grey who have been brilliant performers in folk clubs for over a half a century ever been mentioned?

I forget the number of times that - as a club organiser - I was contacted by young award winners who wanted a first appearance at our club at a massive fee and I had to point out that the awards had no significance in putting bums of seats in a town where they had never appeared before.
They seemed to find that puzzling; the award entitled them to big fees. I suggested that if there were so popular, why did they not just come for 80% of the door take and they would make a pile of money? Some agents would go for this (they were on a %age) but the young artists booking for themselves never did.
I have always regarded the Folk Awards as worthless; a sham. I didn't come into folk music wanting to know that Packie Byrne was a better singer than Margaret Barry; that Lizzie Higgins would be an award winner and that Belle Stewart wasn't. I was just glad that I was able to book all of them and many more great singers at our club.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,Femme Fatale
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 07:55 AM

hypo?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,Femme Fatale
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 07:54 AM

eeeeeeeeeeuw

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 07:20 AM

THank you FF - you have won my heat
Jim

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,Femme Fatale
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 07:04 AM

Definitely opposed to trutsing ……

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 06:45 AM

""Hands Up For Trad" equivalent is just as meaningless."
Yet another straw man - the two are not comparable
Folk has always had a trad connotation, thou few wish a purely trad scene, I'm delighted to say - it would wipe out a third of my repertoire
The problem is that the term has become totally meaningless in its usage by people who appear neither to understand it or to like what they do understand
Personally, having seen up close the massive damage that the 'glittering prizes' approach has inflicted on the music, I would be happy to see it disappear altogether, but having observed the quality and intelligence of the Gradam Irish Award system and its recipients, maybe there is room for it as long as it doesn't become the be-all and end-all
Our music has to stay in the hands of people who know it, understand it and love it if it is to survive
The Beeb have long proved themselves not to be the safest hands to truts it with
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: Johnny J
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 06:32 AM

The complaint a few years ago was that the awards were full of "tired" old names and nothing really changed from year to year.

Nowadays, with a few exceptions, the list seems to be full of "flavours of the month". Having said that, there are one or two worth nominees in there.

So, you can't really win with "Awards" and our own "Hands Up For Trad" equivalent is just as meaningless.

If the idea is just to "showcase" the variety of music on offer and to highlight certain acts and organisations who might otherwise be overlooked, then that's fair enough.
However, we would be just as well to do away with the competitive side of things and call it a "Show Case" as they really just represent the needs and whims of the media, commercial interested organisations and so on.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 06:01 AM

Thank you Dick - consider yourself lucky about Tunbridge!
What has happened to Folk music on teh fok scene is it ha been robbed of its beutiful and important uniqueness because it has been de-defined - if it can't be defined it no longer possesses an identity - a crying shame
Definitions are necessary for those of us who expect to get what we are looking for - that't not "narrow", it's common sense
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 04:51 AM

I agree with Jim, furthermore I am disgusted and i am not from tunbridge wellsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 04:31 AM

"There are even traditional songs on the list for God's sake!"
Thomas Beecham conducted folk songs - didn't make the way they were played "folk"
The fact that a few good ones may slip though the net is unimportant - the general presented picture is one of pop pap
Putting folk music (the voice of the people) into te hands of a monolithic unanswerable Corporation is self harm - as shown by the decline of the clubs.
Healthy folk is like good sex - far better done then watched - that is what has disappeared from the folk scene and it is complacent not to recognise that we, as the participants our clubs onc gave us the opportunity to be, have been relegated to the position of observers - watchers of a star-system from afar
My view of folk songs is afr from narrow - it encompasses the world traditions - not introspective strumners
I can define what I believe to be folk song and can point yopu to libraries full of evidence to back my view up - that's hw "narrow" it is
I doubt if you can produce a single definition which would gain general assent
"The voice of the people" will do for me
Jim

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 04:11 AM

Sorry Jim but your comment 'there's nothing I recognise as folk in any form or description they are indistinguishable from the pop music that we set up the clubs to escape from' is, especially the second part of the comment, quite frankly ridiculous. How do you reckon that the beautiful kora and harp playing of Catrin Finch & Seckou Keita is like pop music. Or the deeply rooted folk songs of Karine Polwart or Kris Forever. There are even traditional songs on the list for God's sake!

I'm afraid you are once again applying your incredibly narrow interpretation of folk to denigrate these awards (and thus the artists nominated). They have every right to be included in the folk awards which fortunately have a wider appreciation of what is folk music. I wish them all the best of luck.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 03:22 AM

An old argument worth following up
The BBC have have served folk badly down the years, (excellent in patches occasionally) now they seem to be in the position to decide what is bad and what is good
Going through the list of winners, there's nothing I recognise as folk in any form or description they are indistinguishable from the pop music that we set up the clubs to escape from - whether you like what they are is immaterial, they ain't folk
The disappearance of the clubs tore the heart out of the folk scene, (I am told an estimate of 186 is "healthy estimate of their number now); festivals came nowhere near to replacing them and some of the best of them have long rode off into the sunset - even FRoots seems to have bombed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 07:01 PM

Sorry Ake but you are talking nonsense again - folk is probably in a healthier state than it has been for many years with tremendous (And young) artists raising the profile of the music.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 06:07 PM

Modern "folk" has become so dire and lifeless that nobody really cares Ray. Some of these new people are good musicians one or two can actually sing as if they meant it, but there is no attempt at inclusiveness.
Its all introverted nonsense......the me, me, me, I wanna be famous syndrome.
I've started listening to street musicians like Tuba Skinny from N'orleans, that's folk music.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 05:57 PM

'"Will they be singing this in the pubs in 20 years?" Answer is, NO.'

You would probably have said that about Streets of London, John

There are some excellent artists, songs & albums nominated. Good luck to those shortlisted - ignore any negativity here

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 04:34 PM

We're off to Whitby on Saturday.

We've been saving all year.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 03:45 PM

Better than the £6 I paid in one Whitby pub.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 03:10 PM

I play in a session in a pub every Monday night, I don't know if the landlord gives the musicians a special price but all beer is £2.50 a pint, and free sandwiches. At our regular Thursday session in a different pub bitter is £2.80 and Guiness £3.30

Very reasonable methinks.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 02:57 PM

Blame the death of the landlord, and the arrival of the tenant, with targets to meet each month, set by the brewers, and when they at last manage to reach that target, why their rent rises, and the target goes up too.
SKY TV seems to have taken the place of singing in most pubs anyway. I certainly can't afford to drink in most pubs.
What price folk music in "inns" Hilaire ?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: Vic Smith
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 02:31 PM

I agree totally with the Belloc quotation but if pubs continue to close at the rate they have in the last decade, there will be very few left in 20 years time.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 08:36 AM

I hope to spend Broadstairs supporting the pubs with regular drinking and the festival with a bit of busking. However, its difficult to fight the property developers when the value of a pub is worth more as flats.
FloraG

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 07:34 AM

When you have lost your Inns, drown your empty selves, you will have lost the best of England. Hilaire Beloc.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: Rain Dog
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 06:54 AM

"Will there be pubs in 20 years?"

I bloody hope so.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: Vic Smith
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 06:37 AM

Will there be pubs in 20 years?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 05:55 AM

Will there be any pubs that have live singing in 20 years?
FloraG.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 05:15 AM

We're just gobsmacked at how much BBC Radio 2 Folk, have got their finger on the pulse of folk music today. To quote another thread, "Will they be singing this in the pubs in 20 years?" Answer is, NO.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: r.padgett
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 04:51 AM

The response to this mudcat posting and mine on facebook is a bit quiet to say the least ~ is anyone interested?

Ray

Subject: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 01:01 PM

fwiw

"The nominees for the BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 are as follows:

Folk Singer of the Year
• Gwilym Bowen Rhys
• Lisa O'Neill
• Olivia Chaney
• Ríoghnach Connolly

Best Duo or Group
• Catrin Finch & Seckou Keita
• Stick in the Wheel
• The Breath
• The Rheingans Sisters

The Horizon Award
• Brìghde Chaimbeul
• Kinnaris Quintet
• Kitty Macfarlane
• The Trials Of Cato

Best Traditional Track
• Factory Girl by Lisa O'Neill ft. Radie Peat
• Ffoles Llantrisant by VRï
• The Foggy Dew by Ye Vagabonds
• The Reedcutter's Daughter by Jimmy Aldridge & Sid Goldsmith

Best Original Track
• Blackbird by Lisa O'Neill
• I Burn But I Am Not Consumed by Karine Polwart
• Spells Out by Kathryn Tickell & The Darkening
• Scapa Flow 1919 by Kris Drever

Best Album
• Ancora by Flook
• Heard a Long Gone Song by Lisa O’Neill
• Hide and Hair by The Trials of Cato
• Soar by Catrin Finch & Seckou Keita

Musician of the Year
• Jenn Butterworth
• Mohsen Amini
• Sam Sweeney
• Seckou Keita "

- https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/latestnews/2019/bbc-radio-2-folk-awards-2019-manchester 

playlist
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/41SsScC3k4TdZmMseuEhvR?si=Eobsa5keSziU9nqBWxk6sw 

'Best Album' is the only category with a public vote.
four nominees :
Catrin Finch & Seckou Keita – Soar
Flook – Ancora
Lisa O’Neill – Heard a Long Gone Song
The Trials Of Cato – Hide and Hair
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/6qBqcNXDxYyzwjY2XhPFjs/radio-2-folk-awards-2019-best-album-vote 

The programme will be 16th October
https://www.bbc.co.uk/schedules/p00fzl8v/2019/10/16#evening

Tickets - Bridgewater Hall, Manchester
https://www.bridgewater-hall.co.uk/whats-on/bbc-radio-2-folk-awards-161019/