BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??

Subject: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: meself
Date: 18 Aug 19 - 03:07 PM

Just wondering - any of you UKers at all bothered by your government 'stripping the citizenship' of someone born and bred in the UK? I'm surprised that this is even a legal option - it sounds like something that would be done in a totalitarian regime. Is there precedent for this?

(This is prompted by the 'Jihadi Jack' story).

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Aug 19 - 03:15 PM

The state of New Jersey does something similar to prisoners with life sentences - they are declared legally dead.

I think there are international treaties forbidding the UK from doing this.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: michaelr
Date: 18 Aug 19 - 03:28 PM

Modi is doing the same thing to Indian muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Iains
Date: 18 Aug 19 - 04:34 PM

This can only occur if the person concerned holds dual nationality. A person cannot be made stateless by UK law.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Aug 19 - 08:59 PM

You can't be made stateless by international law- the right to have a nationality is a declared human right. So if you have dual citizenship whoever strips you first wins.

You take up arms agaist a nation you have citizenship with, I have no argument with said nation revoking your citizenship, whether you were born there or emigrated there.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Aug 19 - 10:02 PM

I have found findlaw.com to be quite reliable in its interpretation of law and court decisions in the US. In the US, the determination of US citizenship is made by US courts, not by the State of New Jersey.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 18 Aug 19 - 11:06 PM

Saturday, 29 December 2018 Neil Prakash stripped of Australian citizenship
Today I can confirm that the Australian Government has notified Neil Prakash that his Australian citizenship has ceased due to being in the service of Islamic State.
This brings to 12 the total number of dual citizens whose Australian citizenship has ceased for actions contrary to their allegiance to Australia.
Mr Prakash is currently in jail in Turkey, where he faces charges related to being a member of Islamic State.
Mr Prakash is also the subject to a formal extradition request made by Australia to Turkey in relation to a number of serious terrorism charges.
Under section 35 of the Australian Citizenship Act 2007, a dual national's Australian citizenship automatically ceases if they act contrary to their allegiance to Australia by engaging in terrorism-related conduct.
Islamic State has been a declared a terrorist organisation for these purposes since 6 May 2016. This terrorist organisation is opposed to Australia's rights and liberties, interests, values, and democratic beliefs.
Cessation of Australian citizenship of dual nationals engaged in terrorist conduct offshore is a key part of Australia's response to international violent extremism and terrorism.
Dual citizens who choose to be involved in terrorism forfeit the privileges of Australian citizenship and I remain committed to enforcing the legal provisions that remove them.

Peter Dutton Minister for Home Affairs & leader of Border Force

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: meself
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 12:04 AM

I just feel that if someone is born and bred in your country, then he's yours, whether you like it or not; deal with him as you will. In this case, I would feel the same if he ('Jack') were born in Canada - I would consider him our problem, and would not want to see my government fob him off on Britain. Yes, the letter of the law allows it, but it doesn't seem right to me. I feel the same way about felons who are sent back to some country that they were brought from when they were infants, and haven't seen since - if they grew up among us, they are our problem. It's a bit like returning the Great Dane you took as a puppy, because he's not cute any more.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 02:32 AM

we have the same problem with returning folk (criminals) to the country of their birth just because they never took out citizenship.

Australia & New Zealand have had agreements that each country's citizens can move freely & recent evictions have included people who have lived here since they were babies

Another person was sent "back" to a country where they spoke a language he did not know.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Charmion
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 09:46 AM

Jack Letts is a birthright citizen of both the UK and Canada because he was born in England (thus gaining right of citizenship there) of Canadian parents (thus acquiring Canadian citizenship). His British citizenship right would have lapsed if his family had left the UK when he was a child, but they stayed and live there still.

Canada's gripe against the UK is based on the fact that young Letts has never, in fact, lived in Canada. Our government claims that Britain's share of state responsibility is therefore greater and less shruggable-off.

Britain's centuries of existence as a state or states in various forms gives the UK precedent for yanking citizenship, but I don't think anyone has been formally banished since maybe the reign of Elizabeth I. Even prisoners transported to Australia remained British subjects.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 09:51 AM

I am pretty sure a US state has no say in US citizenship.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: meself
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 09:59 AM

I believe Letts's mother is English, is she not?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 12:42 PM

It seems to be Rhode Island, not New Jersey, which declares inmates serving life sentences "civilly dead". The practice was apparently widespread at one time, with roots in English common law, but has been abolished in the UK and all US states except RI.

Rhode Island's law is currently under challenge by the American Civil Liberties Union (CLICK HERE).

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Mr Red
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 04:16 PM

Surely there are US states that have the death penalty, is that not depriving a person of citizenship?

The question I ask is "in what country was he when he was radicalised?"

Answers sort of focus the responsibility somewhat, IMNSHO.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 06:50 PM

Mr. Red, I believe if I am murdered I remain American. I'm dead but not stateless (no dual citizenship for me). So, no. The death penalty may be barbaric but that is irrelevant here.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: meself
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 07:03 PM

Sandra: that's a disturbing article. Similar things have happened in Canada, to our shame: in at least one case, a Somali-Canadian was deported to Somalia, of all places, even though he didn't speak the language and had no connections there, not having been there since he had been brought to Canada as an infant - he was deposited somewhere along the border with Kenya and told which way to walk. Then there was the Italian who had been living in Canada since he was eight, and did not speak Italian, who was deported to Italy. The term 'cruel and unusual' comes to mind .... I have no idea how many such cases there have been.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 07:20 PM

Not to get didactic about the issue, but it has a history in American Lit. I remember this story from way back.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Aug 19 - 07:47 PM

Ah, but he renounced. I don't think any nation can force unwanted citizenship on an adult, even though we have the right to not be stateless. (One could argue that US citizenship was forced on me as a neonate. I'm not complaining.) What about that guy stuck in a transit lounge when the country whose passport he was traveling on un-happened, leaving him stateless?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Iains
Date: 20 Aug 19 - 04:46 AM

As Jihadi Jack's pater was found guilty of funding terrorism, why is he not being shuttled off back to Canada as well.
Justice must be seen to be even handed.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 07:03 AM

If I can convince the tories I am an undesirable, does that mean that they will set me up with a home and job in Nova Scotia? Oh goody! Where do I start?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 03:35 PM

Mrrzy

My comment was "depriving of citizenship"

Incarceration gets close to that in the first place, can inmates vote?

If you can't be part of society you are deprived. If you are dead you are not part of society, especially if any money you don't have can't benefit society after you are gone.

It was a a sideways comment on the death penalty in context. But I stand by "deprive".

Staying "on thread" the UK would appear to have educated the man, and its citizens would appear to have re-educated him. So we are responsible for the mess, and the clean-up.

But then there are tactics to all of this, and when the UK mans-up to its responsibility, the guy will be a little softer to handle. I predict.
And there is the message it sends to others: jihadists, potential jihadists, and their parents. It's tactics, stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: ollaimh
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 08:20 PM

and the fookin brits are dumping the problem on canada just before the election. good luck getting a canadian trade deal from canada after no deal brexit.

his father is a canadian citizen . we don't strip citizenship except for fraud. so we will have to charge him for war crimes in the mid east when the shittish government could just charge him as a terrorist and jail him in the uk.

he was born and raised in the uk and you jerks should shovel your own garbage and stop dumping it on canada.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: meself
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 08:26 PM

But our beloved Canada is doing the same thing with Somalis - there's another scheduled to be 'sent back' in a week or so - he's only been in Canada since he was 10 .... At least the British govt is not sending Letts to a violent, failed state where he doesn't know anyone , and doesn't speak the language.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 11:46 PM

Um, MrRed, your comment asked specifically about *the death penalty* depriving of citizenship. I hold that no, it doesn't.

Putting someone in prison deprives them of liberty, not of citizenship. Even if they can't vote they remain citizens.

Folks who choose not to vote are not deprived of citizenship, they are failing in their civic dity.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Aug 19 - 11:53 PM

What is meant by Citizenship here is nationality, not civic behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Aug 19 - 12:00 PM

Hmmm. Military killing other military is war. Military killing other's civilians is war crime. Civilians killing others' military is insurgency. Civilians killing individual civilians for personal reasons is murder. Civilians killing other civilians for political reasons is terrorism. So 9-11 and the Pulse killings (for example] were terrorism. The attacks on US (or other) embassies were too. The attack on the Cole was not, nor the attack on the Marine barracks.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: meself
Date: 22 Aug 19 - 12:45 PM

The term has already become meaningless, I'm afraid. Not only are individual members of military forces associated with terrorism (e.g., Isis, Taliban) called 'terrorists', peaceful protesters are called 'terrorists', peaceful politicians are called 'terrorists', a rioter who breaks a plate-glass window is called a 'terrorist' ... it's another once-useful term that's gone the way of so many others.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 22 Aug 19 - 01:59 PM

WOW! The previous two comments are excellent precis of the conundrum, and the chaos we are facing.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Aug 19 - 04:17 PM

Returning to the subject of citizenship and who may stay:

https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/richard-bertinet-brexit-baker-bath-3247943

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 19 - 04:28 AM

Interesting insight into how some members of the establishment view the rights of British Citizenship in this morning's Sunday Times
Retired diplomat, Michael Lillis, describes how, during the Troubles, Mad Maggie Thatcher suggested that all those living in the Northern Counties who didn't wish to be British Citizens should be forcibly moved to the South.
She cited Oliver Cromwell's forcible mass emigration of the "Rebellious Irish" into Connaught as a precedent
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: wendyg
Date: 26 Aug 19 - 06:26 AM

I'm very disturbed by the idea that birthright citizenship can be stripped - and in fact there is a 1967 Supreme Court decision (Afroyim v. Rusk: https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/387/253.html) that hoplds that under the 14th Amendment citizenship cannot be taken from you (though you can elect to renounce it).

Naturalized citizenship is a little trickier. I suspect most naturalization laws have a get-out clause in case of fraud that's discovered later or in case the naturalized person becomes a danger in some way.

But if a country can simply strip the citizenship of people the government of the day disagrees with, there are huge dangers for dissenters of all stripes. The 1967 decision came shortly after a time in which left-wing Americans saw the State Department refuse them passports, some of them people we know and admire on the folk scene. So yes, I find the whole idea extremely disturbing.

Of course, at one time countries handled this by simply shipping people to an empty continent somewhere. We're fresh out of those...

wg

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 02:46 PM

Anybody watching India about to leave thousands stateless?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Mr Red
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 02:44 AM

What is meant by Citizenship here is nationality, not civic behavior.

Nationality is nationality. Citizenship is not nationality. Are you arguing lexicography instead of etymology? Think.

A citizen is part of the city, surely. Prison is a village, and has precious few of the city privileges. Being in prison is citizen light, if at all. Being dead does not allow you to wander or contribute unless you have acquired and bequeathed that which you screwed from real citizens.

You can be an ex-pat in a xeno-city and be a model citizen - I submit, m'lord. While the words can be interchanged, like a "square peg in a.........." - they ain't equivalent, not even kissing cousins.

Merriam Webster thinks citizenship is :
1 : the status of being a citizen. 2 : the quality of an individual's behavior as a citizen. 3 : domicile

Hardly anything about passports ne c'est pas?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Iains
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 08:20 AM

I would take away the citizenship of Gina Millar , the vexatious litigant!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 08:38 AM

"I would take away the citizenship of Gina Millar , the vexatious litigant!"
Be honest - you woud strip away the citizenship of everybody who disagreed with you, were you in the position to do so - as would all of your ilk
God save the world from such bullies
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Iains
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 08:57 AM

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/09d7a5a74a98e00070160f8884c571602ccb39e7af29332504875d695ed2a0a7.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 09:27 AM

The stripping of citizenship has now become a major weapon in the armory of extremist regimes - millions of people are roaming the planet unable to return home
Meanwhile, back on Mudcat discussion on subjects such as these are being used as a hate playground for a troll we have all been told to ignore
I realise I risk the danger of getting this thread closed, but please, please - could a passing moderator please tell this individual to take his hate postings elsewhere and allow those who care about subjects such as this to discuss them
This form us gradually and single-handedly being turned into a hate-site
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 09:46 AM

Sorry, but no. I am a US citizen. My rationality is American. Ahhahahaha sorry my NAtionality is American. If I am stripped of my US citizenship then my nationality is no longer American. Since I do not have dual citizenship I would have no nationality, and be stateless.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: EBarnacle
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 01:42 AM

The most recent shot in this battle is tRump's current attempt to eliminate birthright citizenship for those serving our country overseas, including in the military and diplomatic services. Be sure there will be litigation over this. His people are already attempting to backpedal this by "clarifying" it to mean that this only applies to children of noncitizens in service to America. If this interpretation is allowed to hold, it could produce a new class of stateless persons.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Sep 19 - 06:49 AM

INTERESTING COMMENT IN THIS MORNING'S TIMES
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 12:40 PM

Yeah- I saw that one. But you can't be born stateless, so those kids would have the nationality of wherever they were born, no? And if it's US soil, like a base or an embassy, that's American, no? Think McCain or whoever it was running for president claiming to be eligible based on that...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 10:48 AM

But why are they in Syria in the first place? The Foreign Office advises against travelling to Syria, and states that consular services are not available in that country. This would make it difficult to repatriate (even) innocent travellers to the country, why should the UK exert itself to repatriate those who have travelled there to make war?


If the SDF (Syrian Democratic Forces) who are currently hold them decide to try and deport them then we should accept them back. But if they are not trying to deport them then they are there by their own choice, and should take the consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 11:03 AM

"But why are they in Syria in the first place?"
The went to fight when they saw their fellow Muslims being massacred and driven into torture chambers with the help of British military equipment Nigel
People asked my father exactly the same question when he went of to fight fascists in Spain - shortly afterwards, the same people he went to fight were bombing the shit out of Britain and herding the Jews into gas chambers
Britain supported the rise of Assad even though they were warned by Amnesty about the mass murder and torture that he was instigating
Even when he started massacring his own people openly on the streets of Homs, Britain voted not to become involved
It transpired that the chemicals sold to him could well have been used to make the weapons Assad Assed used on his opponents
Whatever they turned out to be, the young people were volunteers fighting a madman because the rest of the world stood by doing nothing - they were heroes
Britain and those who supported their actions in Syria should hang their head in shame - they certainly should not be supporting punishment of those who had the courage to do what the rest of the world failed to do
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 11:11 AM

And I would assume that those who had the courage to do what the rest of the world failed to do took their actions in the knowledge that there could/would be consequences for their actions.
I wouldn't imagine that your father, when he went to Spain, had any expectation that the government would bail him out if he got into trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Iains
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 01:34 PM

It transpired that the chemicals sold to him could well have been used to make the weapons Assad Assed used on his opponents

Could be they were used to purify water or perhaps chlorinate chickens.

the young people were volunteers fighting a madman
T'other way about I think.
Does any of this ring a bell?
1)membership of Isis
2)Conscripting children
3)Using human shields
4)burning captured pilots
5)random beheadings
6)Captive brides

You inhabit a very strange world.

Syria was a very pleasant secular country with numerous religions and all living in harmony until the crazies arrived,
I know, I was living there for vast blocks of time for nearly 4 years up until it all kicked off.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 01:42 PM

" took their actions in the knowledge that there could/would be consequences for their actions."
Those who went to Syria were little more than Children when they went
My father was wounded, imprisoned and psychologically tortured in spain
When he returned from Spain he found himself criminalised at the behest of MI5
He was blacklisted from work and forced to leave home to feed his family - I didn't see him regularly until I was nine years old
He was also excommunicated from his church
All for going off to fight fascism
The heroes of the International Brigades didn't expect anything from the Government - they had had five years of them appeasing Hitler before they leftbut they believed because of the imminence of war, that there would be no reprisals for going to fight the people Britain was lining up to go to war with
If the policies adopted by Britain today the IB would probably have ended up in the hands of the Nazis, deprived of the right to return home - just like those British citizens now in the hands of mass-murderer Assad
You should be proud of what Britain ahs become Nigel - abandoning fighters againt Assad while at teh same time prepared to see refugees drown rather than let them pollute British soil
Jim carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 02:28 PM

For just for my curiosity Nigel
Just what do you think the "onsequences" for fighting in Spain should have been, given the fact that the fame Luftwaffe that bombed the marketplace in Guernica and the centre of Madrid, with murderous consequences, a yer or so later were slaughtering Londoners and Liverpudlians ?
Severe, I take it !!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 02:44 PM

WHAT TH WORLD CONDEMNS, OUR RESIDENT TOMMY ROBINSON-ALIKE CONDONES
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 04:29 PM

Jim:
You should be proud of what Britain has become Nigel - abandoning fighters against Assad while at the same time prepared to see refugees drown rather than let them pollute British soil
Boats patrolling the straits of Dover are regularly landing the migrants from boats (not necessarily 'refugees'). Do you have any evidence at all for your claim that we are letting these migrants drown rather than protecting them?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Stripping of Citizenship'??
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 04:08 AM

It hasn't happened in Britain yet but as things are going, there is nothing to stop what happened a few yeas ago elsewhere, happening here regularly
A SHAMING REMINDER
Do you really want this to happen ?
As things stand at present the inhuman conditions refugees are condemned to when they attempt to get to Britain is a human rights disgrace that should not be allowed to happen
Itis is not solely Britain's fault but our government is as much a part of it as is any other

Briatain ghas been very much a part of this massive dislodgement of people from their homes - the choice we have gien them is stay at home and satarve, or be kild or tortured, or leave and endure the inhuman conditions we are imposing on them - a Hobson's Choice
It is the predatory and selfish nature of countries like ours that has caused this inhuman catastrophe - I am totally unable to understand how people can describe themselves as Christian (or even human) and stand by and let it happen (let alone vote for it, as they have)
Now we are allowing our government to punish those young people who attempted to stand up to one of the world's worst despots, by exiling them
Makes you proud to be British - eh what !!!
Jim Carroll