BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?

Subject: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 06:29 AM

i don't know if i've seen a similar thread before and wonder if we are too concerned with the small stuff to address the bigger picture. maybe the question is how we all deal with each other to work together for the good of our communities and our planet. love thy neighbour, plant a tree and don't eat meat....etc. those of us who are getting on a bit (63) have a responsibility to do no harm and get out of the way for more positivity. or something.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 07:19 AM

the 'get out of the way' thing was more of a political choice really. if you look at the 'team photos' of heads of government at any conference it is invariably men of a similar age in similar suits and probably very similar ideas. and angela merkel. for all of us trying so hard to look and think like everyone else , with minor variations, this can only lead to a lack of imagination and a reduced capacity to empathise with many millions of poverished people, a frying planet ...or peace.

when original thinkers get any space in the debate they are usually ridiculed or disregarded as hopeless idealists but listening to them and to what nature is telling us has to be way more hopeful than listening to yet another clone in a suit or religious mediaevalist (is that a word? you know what i mean....)

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 12:29 PM

There are massive free planting programs in the east. Over a billion planted in Pakistan and huge military type operations in China. I don't know if it will make up for tropical deforestation but we have to try. We also need to reforest parts of the UK and Europe to help to prevent flooding and make a start on offsetting CO2 emmisions. Algae and lichen are also massive CO2 absorbers which need to be explored. Of course all this time we need to start reducing the use of fossil fuels and, as I see it, getting rid of private transport would be a huge help.

As a tecnophile I am hopeful of a technical solution being found. Whether that is safe nuclear power, hydrogen based or something entirely different is beyond my ken! All in all though, I am optimistic. Maybe falsely but at least it stops me getting depressed :-)

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 12:30 PM

Free planting=tree planting.

Blummin spill chucker.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 01:42 PM

i read recently that at the start of the 20th century in n america there were up to 4 billion chestnut trees lost to a blight. (book was 'overstory' by richard powers. great book, by the way) though it is a small world , it's also massive

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 04:48 AM

The problem is that everyone ignores potential efforts in their own way. I use the bus a lot, but on a Saturday I might drive 1 hour to a Folk event. For all the mixed efforts I can at least look to Lundun (innit?) and question the "upto" 2 hour commute and label it (truthfully) madness. And look at the Chelsea Tractors going to work.
The car industry has given us ever more economical cars and "battery &/or hybrids" that still pump out CO₂ somewhere in the chain. And then gives us gas guzzlers with ever more power (to guzzle). And cute phrases like "Self Charging Hybrids" that hide the truth.

And then there are the ever greater numbers of people who want what we have. Science and Technology will sort it, but only when it is so bad, and we won't like the results that it implies. Predictions won't tell you all! Brace yerself.

My Canadian cousins, on a visit to Europe (air miles?) commented on lack of UK efforts to re-cycle - obviously not registering the green houshold bins and maybe hidden public bins in pretty Cotswold places they "had" to visit. But they had a point, is it enough?

how do we go from here? - it requires a climate of puritanism. But like the Victorians who signed the "pledge" - it didn't close the pubs. It has to hit rock bottom, and that is a long way down.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 05:26 AM

Tree planting is of course A Good Thing, but, acre-for-acre, there is no substitute for tropical rain forest for soaking up carbon dioxide. That's where we urgently need to start. It would help if we could desist from electing climate idiots as presidents in Brazil and the US.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 07:01 AM

...the question is how we all deal with each other to work together for the good of our communities and our planet. love thy neighbour, plant a tree and ....
WHAT?   ...don't eat meat ....   NO!

I was prepared to go along with you but that's a step too far.

DC

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 09:53 AM

The no-meat furore is a bandwagon eagerly jumped on by the more evangelical veganistas. We shouldn't be rearing meat on land that can grow food crops, or which supports rain forest, and we shouldn't be growing half our cereal crops (as we do in the UK) for animal feed. But that still leaves a lot of land that is far better suited for animal-rearing than for crop-growing. Mountainous or hilly areas, or land with thin or rocky soils, or land that is difficult to irrigate all lend themselves to animal husbandry. In poorer countries, animal manure may provide most or all of the fertiliser for subsistence farmers, chemical fertilisers being both far too expensive and far too ruinous of the soil. It all means less meat, but not no meat. And we do have omnivore teeth and guts.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 01:21 PM

There are sustainable ways of raising beef that are actually better for the landscape, but it involves the old-fashioned cowboy kind of work, moving them to a space, letting them graze it down, then move along to the next space. Think American bison and how robust the Great Plains were till pioneers came along and put up fences and killed off the bison.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 01:30 PM

Mountainous or hilly areas, or land with thin or rocky soils,
In theory perhaps in practice it does not work. You either reduce numbers in winter(traditionally by salting down the meat) or by supplementary feeding. (Where do you think that comes from?)or you have a much lower headcount for a given area.
To make the idea even remotely feasible you have to deal with the massive overpopulation problem.
The problem no one wants to articulate, much less deal with.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: mg
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 08:10 PM

overpopulation. biggest problem of all. with climate change and turmoil, massive numbers of people will have to be moved from place to place..good luck with that. first of all make sure that men and women are allowed to choose their family size, which probably won't be ten kids. get any religions to quit making people suffer in poverty when their lives could be bettered. unless there is wwiii, which could happen..we have many ingredients to turn things around..birth control, internet, charity water, free energy coming..smarter construction..better education, cell phone throughout populations bring improved agriculture and medicine...robots for most dangerous work...it all can be improved if populations don't exceed resources...

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 03:34 AM

We shouldn't be rearing meat on land that can grow food crops, or which supports rain forest,

There was a radio prog in the 80's that advocated Brazil should be rearing capybara which are better suited to the area.

The real problem is population. The more of us, the more land we need for food, and that conflicts with the ecosystem that gave us the clement weather that allowed us to proliferate.

Ants and cockroaches will survive, we won't unless we recognise rock bottom before we hit it. I say we, it will be our great great great grandchildren who will reap the results of our profligacy. It will be the slowest car crash of all time.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 03:40 AM

i've always thought the problem isn't so much population as politics. not children but greed. in the vast differences between obscenely wealthy and dirt poor individuals and countries. we spend massively on weapons -particularly in countries where they can't afford it. if only we could sort that - it's the perennial and most pressing problem of all. a marxist solution if you like, but very necessary

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 04:17 AM

a marxist solution if you like, but very necessary

Dachas and Gulags? or perhaps Mao's Great Leap Forward ?
The latter only killed 35 to 50 million, depending on who you believe.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 10:13 AM

of course, life is a struggle between those with the power and the wealth and the rest of us (this leaves out the gullible, the fore-lock tuggers and those more interested in heaven/hell than this world - but we should presume they are happy enough with their lot) Currently trump is awaiting instruction from the saudi arabian king on whether to start a war with Iran. unimaginable human cost, environmental destruction and astronomical financial consequences could result. a war will be good for business for a tiny minority and the dictators will attract a few more arse-lickers, knuckle-draggers, turnips and bullies to their foul cause.
would the british government back saudi arabia/trump? i'm sure without this lust for war or the mediaeval religions we could work out ways to live together with understanding and compassion. save each other and the planet! you may say i'm a dreamer, that's ok - but it has to be better than having nothing good to hope for

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 10:58 AM

Unsophisticated responses to the term "Marxist" are always what push those good ideas to the back burner. As illustrated.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 12:00 PM

Marxism is the system of socialism of which the dominant feature is public ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange.

Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production and workers' self-management, as well as the political theories and movements associated with them. Social ownership can be public, collective or cooperative ownership, or citizen ownership of equity.

communism a theory or system of social organization in which all property is owned by the community and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs.

It always seems that those on the top of the pile need the most, those at the bottom get shat on.

You do not have to very sophisticated to appreciate that truism.

As I said dachas for the needy/greedy, the gulag for those at the bottom.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 06:47 PM

As illustrated indeed. Come and join us, SRS. Just pretend he's not here. We're still working on Jim...

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 07:12 PM

You don't have an understanding of how the term has shifted in philosophical terms over the years. Marxism is a perfectly acceptable approach to many discussions and solutions to problems. I'm not accepting your short and limited definitions of anything, but I'm also not getting into an argument with you because your sources are too unreliable.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 08:09 PM

I assume that's a response not to me but to the post before mine.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 08:19 PM

upstairs on the right...

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 08:28 PM

Yes. The screen must have been open for a while so I didn't see yours.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 03:25 AM

If you are trying to lecture me I can assure you it is a wasted effort.
I prefer to be educated by recognised experts.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 10:52 AM

Then read them and follow-up: use them as sources you actually cite.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mr Red
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 03:49 AM

Population is the biggest threat. If you spread the wealth evenly around the world, we in the west would be poorer (howdyalikethat?) and and the starving millions in 3rd and 2.5 world countries would be able to consume more. Net result, more pollution.

As I keep saying "we won't like the consequences". see above.

Reduce the population and you reduce the pollution. Not a solution that is ever going to work without starvation, pestilence or war. And they are all hovering like the sword of Damocles. As I said "we won't like.............."

Or we could limit families to one child for a while and end up with criminality like India, or a preponderance of bachelors (and prostitutes) like China. As I said "we won't like.............."

Science and technology will sort it all out. As I said "we won't like.............."

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 08:10 AM

LARGEST CLIMATE CHANGE PROTEST IN HISTORY
Brings a lump to the throat
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 10:27 AM

Britain produces widgets 1/13 of the value of China. Power generation is China, to produce said widgets is very dirty compared to Europe.
The protestors should try their luck in Tiananmen Square. I am sure the Chinese would be delighted to demonstrate how to disperse ecoloons.
The ecobrat has a lot to answer for.
They may bring a lump to your throat,but the majority undoubtedly regard then as a pain in the arse.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 10:39 AM

For boots on the ground you can join 350.org and participate in a climate strike.

https://globalclimatestrike.net/?source=350org It looks like the closest one for some of you is at:

County Square, Ulverston. County Square Ulverston England United Kingdom LA12 7LA

Or you can hop over to the continent and go to one in France, Germany, or Spain. Heck, there's even one out in the middle of the Atlantic on Santa Maria and one in the far north on Iceland.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 12:10 PM

Thanks Stilly
That's a very impressive organisation
Makes you ashamed to have left it in the hands of youngsters, though you don't have to look far to see why
I was amused to see from television reports that the crowds in Dublin jammed up Merrion Square so much today that it must have been near impossible to get into 'The Irish Traditional Music Archive', but I'm sure the people there were as chuffed to see them there as much as I was
Jim

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 01:28 PM

Proud to say that one of my daughters, who works for an art supplies company, is running a pop up shop in their store tomorrow to show how to be more environmentally friendly when creating art works. It was her idea. She had to convince management it was worthwhile and they have now taken it on board big time.

Every little helps as they say:-)

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 03:25 PM

That's a lot of kids and adults up for saving the planet . I suppose they are all living a green life , and willing to forego all the conveniences that consume the dwindling energy supply . I'm sure too that they will be happy to pay higher taxes that may be entailed in the enactment of measures to combat the alleged man made problem                                 Or maybe not .........

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 05:39 PM

Clearly you're not interested, Pete, so why bother to remark, just to cast shade on the discussion? These young people want to lead a life that makes the planet is a healthier place for all. And yes, it will mean a shift in spending, and there is nothing "alleged" about it. Humans have pushed the CO₂ level in the atmosphere to such an extent that things are changing rapidly for all of us.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 05:39 PM

There is no alleged about it, Pete. It is a man made problem. And yes, I would forego any amount of convenience or pay any extra taxes to ensure the planet's future for our children and grandchildren.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 06:00 PM

The young people who have turned out today are amazing. Greta is, to me, a hero. I watched a recording this evening of Billy Connolly's last tour of America. He was there on the Woodstock site with three "veterans" of Woodstock. He mused that Woodstock had changed the world. Well I love Billy and admire his uncanny ability to celebrate the small things. But Woodstock changed nothing. The Woodstock generation, which includes me (I was 18), have screwed this world up big-time, in all manner of ways including climate change. I look at those kids on the telly tonight and I cheerfully suspend my usual cynical view that it's unwise to work with children and animals. The children are bloody brilliant, and I am ashamed.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 10:46 PM

Steve, don't sell our generation short (I'm 65, my ex is 72). Some of our cohort may be part of the problem but we raised children in a way to recognize that they are part of the solution. The "Greatest Generation" gave rise to the Baby Boomers, and this Boomer was in her 30s when she had children (though her children have friends whose grandparents are my age). I'd had a lot of time to think about our place in the world, about environmental issues (the first Earth Day happened when I was in high school - perhaps more significant to the environment that Woodstock? Woodstock had more baggage about ending the Vietnam war.)

I grew up with the Population Bomb and Fahrenheit 451 and Silent Spring and any number of other excellent examinations of mid-twentieth century life and impact on the world. My bi-racial children were raised in a multi-cultural environment and have good educations but it wasn't handed to them - one, though hard work in high school, won a full scholarship to a Tier 1 university and the other, just as smart but not great at math or she'd have had the same scholarship, worked her way through. Their father helped with rent for one and tuition for the other, but the rest was up to them. They are in a position to earn more than their parents, but we guided them through their early years to see the advantages of finishing their educations (and advanced degrees—graduating debt free). It took a village to raise my children and their classmates, but I think they are fully cognizant of the world before them and that we all have to work on a solution. It doesn't help that there is a blip in this, the asshole in the White House determined to support big business by undoing every environmental law and standard he can get his hands on. We all know what is going on, and once he's out, will have to work to solidify regulations so another asshole can't undo them (and to clarify that a president who breaks the law can be indicted in office).

/rant off/

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 03:02 AM

I go along with Steve - the potential potential for our kids to make the world a better place kids is unbelievably is unbelievable but it's being sold out in every way
Technology should be a massive stepping stone to a better world - instead it's being used to turn them into zombies
Ihe were stopping in a Gaway hotel a couple of weeks ago and were horrified to see a toddler who could only just walk sitting on the floor and playing games on a mobile phone - a few yards away her parents were doing the same - sick !
I got interested in folk song at the beginning of the swinging sixties - in Liverpool
The machine got hold of our music for a time and turned it into sellable pap - unfortunately 'Bobbie' allowed himself to become part of that
The bad company I fell in with became part of the Aldermaston marches, and later the Anti-Apartheid and Anti Vietnam movements, but there were few of us and we were regarded as freaks
I became a refugee and escaped to Manchester because my home town had become 'Beatles-infested' - it even drove some of the best jazz in Britain out of The Cavern
When Pat and I started working with Travellers we were looked on with suspicion at first, but eventually managed to show we were genuinely interested in their culture
At first they asked us "are you the wobs? (police) - "No" "Are you social workers?" "No"
Then they called us "The Students", associating us with the groups of young people who used to give up their spare time helping them fight prejudice and push for better conditions
Woodstock was fine (until Altamont turned it into a nightmare) as long as you could take it and leave it to get on with real life
These climate climate kids made me remember the time when enough young people were aware enough of the bad things happening in the world to want to do something about it
I hope they don't get patronised and marginalised by the politcians

I regard one hate-filled comment made not a hundred miles from here little more than child abuse, I'm afraid - let's hope it isn't shared by too many
These young people are doing something our generation should never have made necessary - they deserve both our respect and our gratitude - and a deep apology from all of us
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 05:33 AM

Hey - I remember the demonstrations in Grosvenor Square about Vietnam. And the US had plenty more. They made a difference. They told the politicians something you can't put on a ballot paper.

A single issue in a highly complex world. A pointed message.

And there were a lot of young people in Grosvenor Square.

True the young have more to gain/loose from climate change/mitigation/reversal. But if they are anything like us, they will prove "good" (actually better IMNSHO).

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 05:53 AM

"They made a difference"
Didn't they just - they may not have got everything but at least they gacve us the pleasure of seeing the Saigion embassy staff scrambling into the helicopters on the roof
Almost as pleasurable as seeing Mad Maggie being driven away in tears when her favourite toys were taken from her
I was in the front line next to Peggy Seeger in Grosvenor Square that glorious day - her enthusiasm scared me shitless

I never understand why the most hate-filled dinosaurist bile so often comes with a religious quote (or maybe I don't)
I seem to remember that Pete kicks with that foot
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 06:04 AM

Well, SRS, you illustrate well the point that good-hearted individuals may have made small mitigations, and that we haven't all been willingly signed up to the depredations that the ruthless and self-interested big guns have visited on the environment, but the looming disaster has come about on our watch whether we like it or not. Plenty - by no means all - of those Woodstock-era hippies rapidly turned into the ruthless capitalists that in large part have got us to where we are, that is, in a horrid pickle with no clue as to how we get out of it. We can hope - and help to avoid it - that the recoil of the children doesn't end with the history of the last 50 years repeating itself.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: gillymor
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 07:24 AM

Take courage from and have compassion for these children, get out in the streets with them, live as green as you can, support candidates that are green and actually have a chance at getting elected, get rid of Trump the deregulator who would take us back to the '50's in terms of environmental awareness and ignore the programmed zombies of the status quo like Guido Jr. and Pete.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 07:48 AM

Gillymor :-D *BG*

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 06:15 AM

NOT BEFORE TIME
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 12:25 PM

"i've always thought the problem isn't so much population as politics. not children but greed."

Levels of causality....
If we were all suddenly altruistic and reasonable, it is not clear that the situation would improve. Earth will not support 79 trillion people, no matter how nice and sharing they are and no matter whether politicians begin to look beyond their own re-election.

We artificially control deer populations and thin herds of cattle, but the very concept of mandatory birth control on ourselves seems to trigger all sorts of rationalizations. "But the bible says be fruitful and multiply" "I need children to help with the farm" and the simple one.. "I forgot to use..."

Just imagine if a proposal were made to implant timed-release contraceptives in 1/3 of all girls at at puberty....

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 04:44 PM

Why girls?

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 07:54 PM

Because females are the narrow part of the flow chart. You know the old joke: You can't get a baby in 9 months by putting 9 men on the job?

Sci-fi authors for many years have based 'moving humans to a new star' by assuming that a colony ship would need X times more women than men.

If anyone ever took the idea seriously... sure.. do something with men also, but hormonal contraceptives are already worked out for women.

... and I don't pretend that *I* have the only possible solution... just that all the others I can think of are pretty extreme.. Soylent Green, anyone?

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 09:24 PM

Dear me.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 03:08 AM

Echoed loudly Steve
It seems the dinosaurism extends beyond yaking care of our planet to misogyny and eugenics
Mankind has survived as long as it has because it constantly sought to understood and adapted to its natural environment - that ability seems to be as lost as all the other skills that have been temporarily replaced by so-called advance
I see little point in discussing with someone who can't tell the difference between effects of producing children out of necessity for survival and the neglect and deliberate destruction of our most essential natural assets because it is 'profitable' to do so or not 'economically beneficial' to maintain them   
The thought that some people might lose the use of their SuVs seems to fill people with uncontrollable dread, yet the production of cheap oil to run them has caused more ecological damage than a whole history of floods and forest fires, as well as destabilising our existence with permanent wars and mass migration
Greta Thunberg is, as yet, an unknown figure, yet in a few months she has managed to put our generation to shame and forced (some of) us to think of what damage we are doing to our fellow man
I don't know what she's on but a lot more people need to try it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 04:07 AM

Of course much has been made of the hocky stick graphs in the perambulations of climate science and Dr Mann is very protective of his graph and jumps into court to protect it. Hence the recent case below is rather important. Essentially Dr Mann had 8 years to submit his data to the court to substantiate his case. He refused and his case was dismissed.
Unfortunate things facts.

https://www.steynonline.com/9742/michael-e-mann-loser
All carefully ignored by the mainstream media! Too many taxes and cosy sinecures rely on the stick being inviolate.

It does need to be pointed out that this is the same branch of science that had some predict global cooling and a new ice age in the 70's, although it must be said that this was largely a minority view hyped up by the media

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 05:29 AM

Shit
Canada has got it's own Guido - bet he supports 'Blood and Honour'
Jim Carroll