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BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Helen Date: 23 Jul 22 - 07:53 PM Following the 21 May 2022 federal election, the newly appointed Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, stated that the new Parliament would first meet on 26 July 2022. |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Steve Shaw Date: 23 Jul 22 - 05:46 PM But is Oz still selling millions of tons of iron ore to China so that China can make cheap steel with huge carbon emissions at massive cost to the environment? Reminds me of other western countries who claim to be reducing emissions whilst China makes most of their goods... Too much lying, too much cheating, too much virtue signalling, too much hypocrisy. Donuel is right. We won't put this right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Helen Date: 23 Jul 22 - 05:06 PM For about 1o years, Australia's federal government had the Liberal Party in control and that party is very much in denial about the urgent need for taking action to address climate change. The issue of climate change was one of a number of important and urgent issues which created a change of government in May 2022. The people have spoken and there is now a government with a majority of Labor Party representatives and a significant number of Green Party and independent representatives in power. The majority of these representatives have made a strong commitment to take proactive actions to address climate change and I believe that the Labor Party and the Greens will work well together to start to play catch-up for all of those years of climate change denial, and hopefully make a strong and positive difference. I have voted for the Greens for decades, and my second choice on the ballot papers has always been the Labor Party. I fully support whatever action is needed to turn this planet around and start making a positive difference. It won't happen overnight, and I suspect there will arguments in the government about exactly what the targets should be, but we are now heading in the right direction, in my opinion. Someone once said that making changes like these are like doing a U-turn in a semi-trailer truck. It's not quick and simple. It's a complicated process and it takes time. But decisions and commitments are being made to make that U-turn. |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Mr Red Date: 25 Feb 20 - 11:37 AM Sir James will say the "hard truth" is that it may be better for some communities to relocate UK EA Head. What I have been saying that the EA in the UK have known for years. They are also saying we shouldn't build houses in the flood plain (duh?), but anticipate it will happen so say we should build above the water and use the ground floor for the cars that created this situation. BBC reports what the head of the UK EA will be saying tonight at a water symposium. |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 17 Feb 20 - 12:00 PM It's not that there isn't enough food on the planet, it is that it is unevenly distributed. A lot of it goes to waste in the Western World. |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Feb 20 - 05:37 AM Just to say, by the way, that your humorous allusion didn't escape me... |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Feb 20 - 05:27 AM It spat fire and warmed the planet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Mr Red Date: 17 Feb 20 - 03:53 AM did it spit? |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Steve Shaw Date: 16 Feb 20 - 05:33 AM The last ungulate I tried to rotate wasn't at all happy about it... |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Mr Red Date: 16 Feb 20 - 05:07 AM And get ready for when the locusts descend, can we have giant vacuum cleaners sucking in the protein and mincing it into a burger? Make profit from inevitability. Crazy, but - ya gotta find ways to feed the billions. Mana from heaven with 5 loafs and 2 small fishes ain'ta gonna cut it, PAL! |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 15 Feb 20 - 01:01 PM Rotational grazing can restore land overgrazed in the past. Rotate crops and ungulates and do your property some good. |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: peteglasgow Date: 15 Feb 20 - 08:40 AM we could set gangs of livestock free - we don't have to eat them. (though i fear this concept would be impossible to understand for our climate change denying capitalist overlords) and if they do their thing effectively they have less chance of being burned en masse. as a (not very consistent) vegetarian it's factory farming that really concerns me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Mr Red Date: 15 Feb 20 - 08:03 AM Wake up to this TED talk - How to green the world's deserts and reverse climate change | Allan Savory Basically he is advocating livestock. Mimicking what nature did for millions of years. Large herds for safety in numbers (think buffalo style) where they graze , shitting and pissing on the land (aka manuring). And moving on to pastures new (aka not overgrazing). Locking carbon in the soil which allows grass to grow for next season. Agricultural version of rotation farming? This guy is advocating, out of practical experience, not just his academic prowess. He shows success stories, but he can't do it for the 50% of the deserts of this planet on his own! Science (aka from nature) can provide solutions, but vegans and veges won't like the answer! |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Steve Shaw Date: 14 Feb 20 - 06:44 PM You have to tell people that a battery will reliably take them four or five hundred miles, summer and winter, and that you can recharge at tens of thousands of places in five minutes flat, without queueing. If you can't persuade, you'll have to use force. We can't persuade people to turn thermostats down by one degree, or to stop buying things in plastic bottles. We have a job on, don't we? |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: punkfolkrocker Date: 14 Feb 20 - 05:11 PM Mr Red - Plan for future mass public transport starting with consideration for folks who can't walk.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Donuel Date: 14 Feb 20 - 04:47 PM Steve there has been a great breakthrough in the manufacture of electric cars. It replaces all the expensive materials including platinum for mere pennies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Donuel Date: 14 Feb 20 - 04:38 PM Doug that sounds like smelly air pollution to me The syncopated cosmic drumph beat in the universe stretches and squeezes our soul and being. It takes silence for deniers to rule. They are full of stool And True to tell they have a smell Even Light years away from hell |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Mr Red Date: 14 Feb 20 - 04:36 PM and other public transport provision... Shank's pony not good enough, huh? I have been lucky to be able to walk to work for maybe 10 of my work years, off and on. But things outside your control can change, as well as personal ambition. It does set you up for the day, and wind you down again. Meanwhile the Environment Agency are toughening us up with scares stories like this Coastal floods warning in UK as sea levels rise, but it has that inevitability the simple stats should tell you. Changing onset of spring, record temperatures. Who gives a fuck arguing about the causation, the sea level is rising, year on year, and there is no inflection in the curve of the rises. If the sea don't get us, the hot summers will, or some bastard child of COVID-19. |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Doug Chadwick Date: 14 Feb 20 - 04:14 PM You have hit on something there, Steve. Burning climate change deniers at the stake could provide a renewable source of energy. DC |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Steve Shaw Date: 14 Feb 20 - 02:57 PM Denial on this topic marks you out as evil. Nothing less. |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: pdq Date: 14 Feb 20 - 02:53 PM Sorry about the error but 4% is 100 times larger than 0.04%, not 1000 times. |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: punkfolkrocker Date: 14 Feb 20 - 01:54 PM Just be glad I'm not absolute ruler of Britain, because I'd phase out current petro/diesel vehicles and place strict limits on the numbers of privately owned electric replacement cars... The future must be heavily biased towards local Bus networks and other public transport provision... |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Iains Date: 14 Feb 20 - 01:37 PM @ pdq. according to the IPCC (Source: Figure 7.3, IPCC AR4). The anthropogenic component of the 0.04% CO2 in the atmosphere is 3.7%. The estimate is of dubious validity, as is some of the proxy data bandied about as the word of God. There are a vast number of unknowns and climate models are inaccurate. Making definitive statements about what may or may not happen on the basis of such dubious data makes no sense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: pdq Date: 14 Feb 20 - 12:54 PM The official US government number seems to be 412 parts per million CO2 from all causes. We can call that 0.04%. Atmospheric water vapor varies but is usually said to be 4-5% at most. Lets go with 4%. That sugests that H2O is 1000 times more abundant than CO2 and probably 1000 times more important as a “greenhouse gas.” Most scientists question the accuracy of this type of data (such as temperature) that dates from before 1850. Before 1780 it is worthless. People who claim to know the atmospheric CO2 level 2 million years ago surely lie about other stuff too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Steve Shaw Date: 14 Feb 20 - 06:10 AM Mr Red, re my post on batteries and your response. Not for a second was I suggesting that avoiding the inconveniences of limited range and recharging time trumps the need to change our behaviour. I am suggesting that those inconveniences (plus the expense of battery cars) are major obstacles in persuading people to change. Governments can force people to change, of course, by setting unrealistic time scales (end of austerity by 2015, anyone?), and once they force us all to buy battery cars there'll be another inconvenience, this time for petrol drivers in their bangers, in that it'll get harder and harder to find petrol stations. But governments forcing major changes on people tend to make themselves very unpopular... |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Mr Red Date: 14 Feb 20 - 03:50 AM Does 4 parts per million of anthropogenically generated CO2 really have the impact suggested? First justify the claim. The figure being banded about is a doubling of CO2, compared to pre-industrial levels. How near are we currently? Very! Pre-industrial life sustained globally for at least 2 million years of primates burning trees to cook food, shows climate change indistinguishable from natural changes caused by (take yer pick): magma release/ash, earth's orbit variations, solar flares and (other). 4 ppm refers to IQ IMNSHO |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Iains Date: 14 Feb 20 - 03:36 AM The Aleutions and adjacent landmass are actually sinking. It always helps to unite cause with effect, rather than hysteria. The Pacific tectonic plate rubs against the North American plate, giving rise to the San Andreas and Denali strike-slip faults. In southwestern Alaska, those two plates meet head on, and the Pacific plate sinks beneath the North American plate. In this subduction zone, some of the ocean plate melts and the molten rock pushes to the surface in a string of 40 active volcanoes, forming the Aleutian Islands. Catalina Island off California has sunk each decade for more than a million years by at least two millimeters, according to research by Stanford Uni. The UN had been premature in declaring the villagers on Tegua (Solomons) to be climate change refugees when a large earthquake caused the island to shoot back out of the water in 2009. That island sank nearly 12 centimeters (five inches) between 1997 and 2009 Vanikoro, also in the Solomons, is sinking by seven millimeters (0.3 inches) a year.Earthquakes and tsunamis strike Vanikoro regularly, but people here are at the mercy of the forces of nature in a longer-term way, as well: On its slowly sinking course, the Australian Plate is dragging Vanikoro along into the depths. Further confusing the issue is the fact that "sea level increase" is not uniform. It is reputedly higher in the Pacific. Like most inhabitants of the South Pacific, those of Vanikoro must contend with sea-level fluctuations of some 20 centimeters (eight inches) caused by currents in the Pacific, such as the climate phenomenon called El Niño. CO2 represnts 0.04% of the atmosphere and the anthropogenic component of that 0.04% is reckoned to be 0.4% Does 4 parts per million of anthropogenically generated CO2 really have the impact suggested? . Water vapor varies by volume in the atmosphere from a trace to about 4% and is also a potent greenhouse gas. Do the maths. CO2(Human) 4 parts per million Water Vapour up to 40,000 parts per million The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) Third Assessment Report suggests that MSL may rise by approximately 50 cm in the next 100 years, and that regional meteorology may also change, which would affect the magnitude and frequency of storm surges I may win the lottery. That is not science, it is not even worthy of being labelled a forecast. |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Mr Red Date: 14 Feb 20 - 03:20 AM Battery power has a bloody long way to go to match that. Early days. John B Goodenough gave us the Lithium-Ion battery that made this debate possible, a mere 30 years ago. And at 95 he still heads-up the team trying to go beyond Cobolt on Lithium. But Tesla claim 400 miles - is your 600 mile journey really necessary? A 30 minute break re-charging the car and YOU is very wise counsel. If we are to divorce ourselves from carbon fuel we must find alternative portable power. Electricity has the momentum, we need it NOW. New Scientist points out that using electricity for hydrolysis is not viable without acres of PV. It is doable at the point of delivery where the acreage is available - say private rooftops - but at realistic levels it would not deliver sufficient on-demand for a busy urban station. Use electricity from the grid? What is that made from? All of this points us to the possibility that we will have to consider favouring traveling in daylight hours &/or when the wind is blowing. Or get stranded in strange towns. Like I say, science has solutions, we may not like the answers. One novel mass storage solution seen involves heavy rail wagons driven uphill (by electricity) during daylight/windy days. And let downhill when recovering the stored energy by generating electricity and storing on batteries on each wagon. In future iterations the battery boxes will turn sideways at the top and bottom to maximise parking area. The company claim 95% ability to recycle the whole system at the end of life. prototype is the second picture |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 13 Feb 20 - 06:11 PM The Maldives are islands that seem to be shifting and sometimes growing - lucky for them there is room for that dynamic activity - but Alaska natives are moving their homes on the Aleut and mainland shorelines because of the rising sea level eroding the land. Scientists may not have got them all right, but they're more correct than wrong, and a lot more accurate than your misinformation sources. The Arctic Institute. |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Steve Shaw Date: 13 Feb 20 - 06:00 PM There are two blind guys here, Donuel. The demented Iains and you. You are blind when you refer to "you guys." There is only one guy posting here who denies anthropogenic climate change. The rest of us don't care to be insulted by your bracketing us with him. Especially him. Knock it off, eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: punkfolkrocker Date: 13 Feb 20 - 03:35 PM Do we have time left to block off the Bristol channel between Wales and Scrumpyshire before we return to pre land reclamation waterscapes.. Or is it not worth thinking about new downstairs carpets...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Donuel Date: 13 Feb 20 - 03:12 PM You guys are CO2 blind, which is the main accelerent of global warming. Since 14,000 years ago when the last ice age let go of its icy grip big time, sea levels have risen, now climate change is going after the remaining ice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Iains Date: 13 Feb 20 - 03:00 PM The pseudo science is the belief 97% of scientists believe in global warming according to Al Gore, and now rebadged as climate change, all due to anthropogenic causes. Climate has always changed. After alerting the world in September 1988 that the Maldive islands of the Indian Ocean would be submerged by rising seas in less than three decades – due to the so-called first effects of man-made global warming – officials of the United Nations and associated climatologists are scratching their heads that the island chain is still there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: peteglasgow Date: 13 Feb 20 - 01:26 PM of course we could make a real effort to clean up the planet, drastically reduce emissions, restore diversity to what the greens like to cause an 'abundance. we could save many species and help them to thrive. we could ensure that everyone had a fairer chance and a more secure, well-educated future.... but then we found out that the climate change deniers were right all along! it was all a massive chinese /lefty hoax.......how foolish would we feel then left with our unnecessary clean and healthy planet? eejits |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Steve Shaw Date: 13 Feb 20 - 12:41 PM Yeah. And they want donations so that they can "defend the Scientific Method." :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 13 Feb 20 - 12:05 PM You're not part of the conversation with that pseudoscience crap, Iains. You're part of the problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Donuel Date: 13 Feb 20 - 11:45 AM Tesla stock has grown 280% in the last several weeks. 280%? |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Iains Date: 13 Feb 20 - 06:54 AM https://principia-scientific.org/has-there-actually-been-a-scientific-debate-over-global-warming/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Stanron Date: 13 Feb 20 - 06:43 AM I agree that the hydrogen generator is the future for electric vehicles. Excess sunlight through voltaic cells can be stored as hydrogen from water electrolysis then later be used to generate electricity again. The technology exists but, as has been noted, the infrastructure is virtually non-existent. None of this solves the jet engine problem. If jet engines could be run on hydrogen I imagine that they would already be in use. The trick would be if someone could find a way to burn carbon dioxide with hydrogen to make it work with jets. As long as the carbon dioxide came from the air it would be 'carbon neutral', or is this just chemical perpetual motion? |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Steve Shaw Date: 13 Feb 20 - 06:29 AM Battery development and production is extremely environmentally-unfriendly on many levels. And what's more, I can drive my Focus diesel, bought when diesel was lauded as the way to go in 2011, 600 miles on a tankful and fill up in two minutes at any one of thousands of places, then be on my way. Battery power has a bloody long way to go to match that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Mr Red Date: 13 Feb 20 - 06:24 AM In the UK Telegraph (don't buy it meself) on the front page re devastating floods in towns that have had devastating floods 3 times in seven years: "UK agency tasked with flood defences and hydrology thereof states 'we may have to re-think our strategy'" Which are code words for "Abandon ship". Not easy news for the houseowners, or even renters. As I am want to say, science/technology has the solutions, but we won't like the answers. The terrain is basically a valley location with high hills surrounding. Taming nature needs big expensive undertakings that haven't reached Hebdon Bridge yet. And global warming/weirding increasing without respite. I live in an area that proudly proclaims the nickname "Five Valleys" and grew on the strength of water mills harnessing the phenomenon. Floods are known, traffic chaos ensues! But on the plus side only a house called Noahs Ark suffers! |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Mr Red Date: 13 Feb 20 - 06:13 AM Hydrogen needs an infrastructure like petrol has. Uphill task, especially given the fact that gas engines, when I was at college, are only 50% as powerful. Off-the-shelf electric cars like Tesla can outstrip some pretty specialised drag cars, head to head. Up to about 60mph anyway. And electricity is available everywhere, and can be generated anywhere the sun shines! VHS v Betamax is a good comparison, though I am not convinced hydrogen is better. Certainly London buses run on hydrogen, (after the first 100 yards of battery), but they have to return to the depot, and the logistics of installing infrastructure there is easier, especially with political will behind it. And seat of government in the same city!!!!!! The problem material with lithium-Ion batteries is cobalt. But such electric car tech is barely 20 years old, and it has impetus, battery technology is running apace. Compressed air, you would think, has a lot going for it, but it hasn't caught on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Donuel Date: 31 Jan 20 - 09:41 AM Hydrogen generator breakthrough for cars will eliminate the need for high cost materials like platinum and the new materials are more efficient as well. Affordable hydrogen vehicles looks good now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Iains Date: 18 Jan 20 - 05:16 AM Science is driven by facts Politics by consensus. Confuse the two at your peril! |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 18 Jan 20 - 04:55 AM What the world needs most is birth control - sweet human birth control. Frankly, if more men go through life getting off before central, the world will be a far better place for those who are born - humans plus all fauna and flora. Or, like Donuel, I've had a go in verse, too - WalkaboutsVerse: "Congestion" |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Donuel Date: 16 Jan 20 - 04:11 PM Goodbye Moon beyond smoke goodbye dog I heard choke Goodbye 3 little kittens goodbye florists All of this was written. Goodbye rain forest Goodbye green trees now stiff and black and fall in the breeze Goodbye clean air attacks Goodbye fair Oz and billions of creatures The stock market is now Earth's best feature DH 2020 |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 16 Jan 20 - 12:01 PM From a few years back, Are climate sceptics the real champions of the scientific method? As part of our series on science and the green movement, Warren Pearce looks at how science is used by their opponents While this may mark a new era of extended and unforgiving online peer review, is it also a convenient modus operandi for politically motivated sceptics who can utilise doubt as a weapon against effective implementation of climate policy. Those who favour free market policies over regulation certainly have ample motivation to chip away at climate science if they think it will cast aspersions on the basis for policy. However, how can criticisms of sceptics as politically motivated be squared with science's commitment to findings always being provisional and open to challenge? At what point can we judge that a scientific question moves from a position of "doubt" to being "settled"? "The conundrum is that both "sides" (if one can use that term) seem to focus on real science as the arbiter of knowledge claims. In doing so, they risk constricting material policy measures, issues of wider public significance than scientific debates about climate change." Social issues such as the disparity in access to food, income, the wise use of resources, those are the things that have to inform the regulations and negotiations to deal with climate change. That's hard enough to do when the science is spot on and proves the effects of mineral extraction, pollution from manufacturing and the internal combustion engine. The deniers have a stake in keeping poor people poor and letting the marketplace pollute and keep the rich getting richer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 16 Jan 20 - 11:48 AM So you go out and look for an official sounding group to push your junk science: Principia Scientific International (PSI) is a not-for-profit community interest association. It's an internet club of climate deniers. Media Bias/Fact Check rates them as CONSPIRACY-PSEUDOSCIENCE Sources in the Conspiracy-Pseudoscience category may publish unverifiable information that is not always supported by evidence. These sources may be untrustworthy for credible/verifiable information, therefore fact checking and further investigation is recommended on a per article basis when obtaining information from these sources. See all Conspiracy-Pseudoscience sources. Overall, we rate Principia Scientific International (PSI) a strong conspiracy and Pseudoscience website that promotes anti-vaccine propaganda and frequent misinformation regarding climate change. |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Iains Date: 16 Jan 20 - 11:16 AM https://principia-scientific.org/how-empirical-evidence-bursts-the-climate-consensus-balloon/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=e |
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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 16 Jan 20 - 11:05 AM The numbers are in and while the graph represents just two degrees, what a difference they make. (Washington Post) The past decade was the hottest ever recorded on the planet, driven by an acceleration of temperature increases in the past five years, according to data released Wednesday. For those who can't get past the WaPo paywall, here is the BBC. According to Nasa, Noaa and the UK Met Office, last year was the second warmest in a record dating back to 1850. |
