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Tune Add: Helas je l'ay perdue

T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) 01 Jan 00 - 02:30 PM
Malcolm Douglas 01 Jan 00 - 08:20 PM
Okiemockbird 01 Jan 00 - 11:18 PM
Malcolm Douglas 02 Jan 00 - 12:19 AM
Okiemockbird 02 Jan 00 - 01:33 PM
Malcolm Douglas 02 Jan 00 - 10:44 PM
GUEST,Angharat 27 Dec 12 - 11:37 AM
Monique 27 Dec 12 - 01:26 PM
Artful Codger 27 Dec 12 - 05:55 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 27 Dec 12 - 07:12 PM
GUEST,Angharat 04 Jan 13 - 03:05 PM
GUEST,Angharat 04 Jan 13 - 03:15 PM
Monique 04 Jan 13 - 08:11 PM
GUEST,ripov 04 Jan 13 - 08:50 PM
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Subject: Tune Add: HELAS JE L'AY PERDUE
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 01 Jan 00 - 02:30 PM

X: 1
T: Helas je l'ay perdue
C: 15th century French chanson--Edition: Paris and Gevaert, Chansons du XVe Siecle,Paris, 1875
M:4/4
K: F
L: 1/4
G2 (d2|d) c c B | c2 z2 | c2 G>A | B B A G | A2 G2 :|
G2 (A2|A) A A A | B2 B2 | A G/ F/ G/ F/ G/ A/ | B/ A/ c2 B | A G F2 |
z2 |G2 (A2|A) A A A | B2 B2 | A G/ F/ G (A|A) G G F | G4 ||


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Helas j l'ay perdue
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 01 Jan 00 - 08:20 PM

That's a nice tune. Does the book have words for it?

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Helas j l'ay perdue
From: Okiemockbird
Date: 01 Jan 00 - 11:18 PM

The book has words, but they're in French.

The lyric begins with a half-verse, which is sung to the second half of the music. After that come full verses, which are sung to the full melody. Here is the half-verse and the first full verse. Any help anyone can give on interpreting them will be greatly appreciated:

Helas! je l'ay perdue
celle que j'aymoie tant!
J'en ay perdu la veue,
dont j'ay le cueur dollent.
(I have an aching heart ?)

Et sy je la revoy
je lui diré& "Voisine,
je vous aim loyaulment,
mail vous m'estes trop fine:
D'amours me monstrez signe,
et n'en avez tallent,
par quoy fault que je fine
mes jours en languissant."

T.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Helas j l'ay perdue
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Jan 00 - 12:19 AM

This would be the rough sense of it:

Alas! I have lost her
who I loved so much!
I have lost sight of her,
which makes my heart sore.

And if I see her again
I will say to her "Neighbour,
I love you faithfully,
but you are too good for me:(or perhaps, too subtle toward me?)
Show me a token of love
and... (I need a more specialised dictionary for this line)
without which I must end
my days in pining.

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Helas j l'ay perdue
From: Okiemockbird
Date: 02 Jan 00 - 01:33 PM

Malcolm, thanks!

Gaston Paris's note on tallent is:

"Tallent, désir, envie."

Does that help ?

T.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Helas j l'ay perdue
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Jan 00 - 10:44 PM

Of course it helps!

The syntax is a bit vague -I really am very rusty with Old(ish) French- but the last lines would probably be something like:

Show me a token (or, sign) of love,
And (if) you do not wish to (do so),
Then I must end my days
Pining away.

How much more is there? If you like, you could post the rest here, or, if it's long, send me the rest in a personal message and I could try to make at least decent sense of it: I'd want the editor's notes, though!

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Helas je l'ay perdue
From: GUEST,Angharat
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 11:37 AM

What source did you get the melody from? I see only the lyrics in your listed source.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Helas je l'ay perdue
From: Monique
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 01:26 PM

The source is mentioned in the first post. Anyway, it's
Chansons du 15e siècle, publiées d'après le manuscrit de la Bibliothèque nationale de Paris par Gaston Paris, et accompagnées de la musique transcrite en notation moderne par Auguste Gevaert (1875) that you can find at the BNF or on page 59 of the 2nd section of this pdf, the lyrics are on pages 105 and 106 of the 1st section. It seems that it can't be read online. There are more than the ones posted above:

Helas ! je l'ay perdue
Celle que j'aymoie tant!
J'en ay perdu la veue,
Dont j'ay le cueur dollent.

Et sy je la revoy
Je lui diré : « Voisine,
Je vous aim loyaulment.
Mais vous m'estes trop fine :
D'amours me monstrez signe,
Et n'en avez tallent,
Par quoy fault que je fine
Mes jours en languissant. »

Danger m'a assally,
Aussy Mellencolye,
Bon Espoir m'a failly
Qui les amans ralie ;
Pensant en ma follie
Je dis en souppirant :
"Qu'est elle devenue
Celle que j'aymoye tant ?"

Je me suis présenté
Partout ou je l'ay sceue,
Le long de cet esté
Je l'ay de près segue,
Mais la couleur me mue
De penser seullement :
Las! fault il que je perde
Celle que j'aymoye tant?

Si plus ne vous revoy,
Adieu vous dy, m'amye :
Rendre je m'en iray
Dedans une abbaye,
Dedans quelque abbaye
Ou en quelque couvent :
La fineray ma vie
Tousjours en languissant.

Modern French spelling

Hélas ! je l'ai perdue
Celle que j'aimais tant!
J'en ai perdu la vue,
Dont j'ai le cœur dolent.

Et si je la revois
Je lui dirai : « Voisine,
Je vous aime loyalement.
Mais vous m'êtes trop fine :
D'amours me montrez signe,
Et n'en avez talent*,
Par quoi faut que je fine [finisse]
Mes jours en languissant. »

Danger m'a assailli,
Aussi Mélancolie,
Bon Espoir m'a failli
Qui les amants rallie ;
Pensant en ma folie
Je dis en soupirant :
"Qu'est-elle devenue
Celle que j'aimais tant ?"

Je me suis présenté
Partout où je l'ai sue,
Le long de cet été
Je l'ai de près segue**,
Mais la couleur me mue
De penser seulement :
Las! faut-il que je perde
Celle que j'aimais tant?

Si plus ne vous revois,
Adieu vous dis, m'amie :
Rendre*** je m'en irai
Dedans une abbaye,
Dedans quelque abbaye
Ou en quelque couvent :
Là finirai ma vie
Toujours en languissant.

*talent= envie; ** segue = suivie; *** rendre = se faire moine.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Helas je l'ay perdue
From: Artful Codger
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 05:55 PM

I notice that the ABC has slurs where it ought to have ties (visually they're the same, but musically, slurs sound as two notes instead of one, particularly in MIDIs). So I've corrected the ABC below, speeded it up slightly, and posted a MIDI:

Click to play MIDI (joeweb).

ABC:

X:1
T:Helas je l'ay perdue
C:15th century French chanson--Edition: Paris and Gevaert, Chansons du XVe Siecle,Paris, 1875
M:4/4
L:1/4
Q:1/4=132
K:F
G2 d2-|d c c B | c2 z2 | c2 G>A | B B A G | A2 G2 :|
G2 A2-|A A A A | B2 B2 | A G/ F/ G/ F/ G/ A/ | B/ A/ c2 B | A G F2 |
z2 |G2 A2-|A A A A | B2 B2 | A G/ F/ G A-|A G G F | G4 ||

The tune strikes me as a variant of a popular one used for "Bel astre que j'adore" and quite a few other songs.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Helas je l'ay perdue
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Dec 12 - 07:12 PM

Easiest way to read it on line is to use the thumbnail images, scroll down to 105, then click on that image to enlarge it.
No problem to print any pages that you want to keep, or to download the entire.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Helas je l'ay perdue
From: GUEST,Angharat
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 03:05 PM

Thank you!

I had seen the lyrics in that source via google books, but that version was only the 1st section and so didn't contain any scores, only lyrics!

I'm trying to tract down the original 15th C lyrics to the song on which the hymn "Saw You Never in the Twilight" is based; the hymnals I have found all credit the melody as being 'Chartres, 15th C French' and I found one source saying that this song (Je l'ay perdu) is the original, so I wanted to see the score to confirm it's the same melody.

My thoughts are that the modern hymn is a variation on this tune, which is not how it is presented in the hymnal sources, with some significant changes: most jarringly, in the modern hymn it is in a different key (G minor?) with the Fs all sharp. Are you familiar with the hymn? What are your thoughts on the two?

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/s/a/sawyoune.htm << midi and NoteWorthy Composer score can be found here, can't find a link to a primary source on the web but I have it in several hymnals.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Helas je l'ay perdue
From: GUEST,Angharat
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 03:15 PM

If any of you don't have NWC, the score to the modern hymn can also be found in pdf format here >> http://www.hymnary.org/tune/chartres?sort=tune-tuneTitle

The harmonies are credited as being modern (1903), and it does appear to be in G minor.

Malcolm, if you're still around, did you ever complete your translation? I read modern French but am stumped by some of the archaic terms/forms.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Helas je l'ay perdue
From: Monique
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 08:11 PM

I'd say it means that:

...
Danger assailed me
Also Melancholy;
Good Hope that unites lovers
Failed me;
Thinking inside my madness,
I say and sigh
"What became of her,
The one I loved so much?"

I went
Everywhere I knew she was;
All this summer long,
I followed her from close,
But my color (complexion?) changes
At this only thought:
"Alas, must I lose
The one I loved so much?"

If I [am to] never see you again,
Farewell I tell you, my dearest/love/sweetheart:
I'll become a monk
In an abbey,
In some abbey
Or in some convent:
There I'll end my life,
Languishing/pining for ever.

"n'en avez talent" means "vous n'en avez pas envie" = you don't feel like it.

Now, you native English speakers, please put that into proper English.


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Subject: RE: Tune Add: Helas je l'ay perdue
From: GUEST,ripov
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 08:50 PM

re the penultimate verse; in earlier times "complexion" had a deeper connotation than it now has:-
Collins gives

complexion n
2    aspect, character, or nature
3    (Obsolete) the temperament of a person


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