BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK

Subject: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 08:43 PM

I'm so very sorry.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/10/06/harry-dunn-death-parents-trapped-nightmare-amid-growing-calls/

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic I
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 08:48 PM

I don't know where the rest of my thread title went, and I had trouble making a working link, but at least that seems okay.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic I
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 09:38 PM

The Diplomat's wife should do the right thing. Return to the U.K. and go through the legal process.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic I
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 02:43 AM

Not a chance of this coward returning to the UK. We've seen it all before. And the US Government will simply compound this by doing nothing.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic I
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 03:02 AM

"And the US Government will simply compound this by doing nothing."
Trump is quite likely to demand that any future trade deals depend on Britain desisting from perscuting this poor, innocent American citizen with 'Fake News'
Don't kid yourselves - this is the shape of things to come
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic I
From: Iains
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 07:02 AM

The diplomatic immunity claimed by 42 year old Anne Sacoolas is as a result of an agreement put in place in 1994. The special deal was put in place between the UK and the US which gives diplomats and their families based at RAF Croughton diplomatic immunity.Usually, diplomatic immunity only covers those diplomats and their dependants based in London.
Sky News reported that the alleged driver was advised to leave the UK by the American Embassy.
An attempt by Northamptonshire Police to stop her leaving was declined, and the US Embassy has confirmed she's no longer in the UK.

This evading justice by claiming diplomatic immunity is totally wrong when their actions have caused a death. It is not fair on the victim, the parents, or other UK citizens that may be killed ot maimed in the future.
Justice must be seen to be done and hiding behind a veil of immunity is not right. At the very least she should be banned from ever returning to the EU if she will not face justice.
Causing death by dangerous driving can can result in 14 years imprisonment.
This is a weasel action that will be remembered if justice is not seen to be done.
Would the reaction of the US be the same if the boot was on the other foot?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic I
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 09:44 AM

People in the US claim diplomatic immunity for all kinds of crimes, and get it. People everywhere claim diplomatic immunity and get it. None of that should be happening- but that's the way it is.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic I
From: Iains
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 09:48 AM

I think all extradition proceedings against Julian Assange should be halted until this matter is resolved in an English Court

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic I
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 12:32 PM

Assange doesn't have diplomatic immunity, does he? And the driver can't *be* tried, that's the point.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic I
From: Iains
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 02:02 PM

Other countries have withdrawn diplomatic immunity in similar circumstances. Immunity was not designed to let this kind of lawbreaking go unsanctioned. No one has said Assange has immunity,the US wishes to incarcerate him for whistle blowing.
Interestingly Under the Vienna Convention, diplomatic immunity does not apply to civil actions relating to vehicular accidents,if not being used for diplomatic purposes.
That would leave her wide open to trial in an American court.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic I
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 02:41 PM

And people have waived immunity, as when such a driver would be worse tortured at hime, maybe stoned for driving while female...

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mossback
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 06:59 PM

Hey, Amerkuns is exempt- twas always thus.

HEIL TRUMP!!!

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 02:59 AM

It never fails to amuse me how outrageous behaviour such as this are immediately watered down by a sudden attack of 'whataboutism'
THere are many incidents of the misuse of diplomatic immunity - we have yet to here any steps being taken to right the wrongs of the Salisbury attempted assassinations
But that doesn't mean we have to sort all of these out before we can discuss individual cases - or does it ?
I suspect that the most sinister aspect of cases like this is, given Donald the Div's approach to international diplomacy, incidents like this will become bargaining chips in future trade negotiations come Brexit - as will the buying and selling of offshore islands
Our leaders are really going to brush up on their Dancing to Donald's Tune skills
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 04:31 AM

Boris Johnson:
"I must answer you directly, I do not think that it can be right to use the process of diplomatic immunity for this type of purpose.

"And I hope that Anne Sacoolas will come back and will engage properly with the processes of law as they are carried out in this country.

"That's a point that we've raised or are raising today with the American ambassador here in the UK and I hope it will be resolved very shortly.

"And to anticipate a question you might want to raise, if we can't resolve it then of course I will be raising it myself personally with the White House."

I suspect this issue is not going away

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: G-Force
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 05:00 AM

It may be a big story here in the UK, but is it being covered in the US? What do people over there think?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: gillymor
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 08:50 AM

It is getting coverage on the national news here in the U.S. I can't speak for anyone else but I found it outrageous, how can she live with herself.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 10:32 AM

Cos she's an absolute cunt, end of.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 04:06 AM

Diplomatic immunity is an essential protection for diplomats worldwide. If it means that legitimate charges cannot be pursued, sometimes that is a price which has to be paid. However situations like this bring the system into disrepute. Countries can and do waive immunity, and this would seem to be an appropriate situation to do so.

Of course the honourable thing to do would have been for her not to have claimed immunity in the first place.

What especially riles us here is that the US is quick to demand extradition of UK citizens for alleged breaches of US law while refusing to yield up its own citizens. Not quite the same situation, but a close enough parallel.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 04:34 AM

As I understand it, her husband is not actually a registered diplomat.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 04:52 AM

I strongly suspect that, like the case of Nazanin Zaghawi Ratcliff, this is very much on the back burner while our serial-liar, serial-adulterer, pole-dancer-shagger, incompetent scumbag of a PM is completely consumed by engineering a no-deal crash-out BrexShit.

Preserving his bosses’ tax-dodging opportunities comes far higher up his list of priorities than looking after the well-being of British citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 06:29 AM

Backwoodsman I am afraid you are letting brexit prevent any rational thinking. Boris has already made his comments. Do you suppose he is lying? Countries can and do waive diplomatic immunity in certain circumstances. As we are supposedly a trusted ally and not a third world dictatorship I would expect a sensible response from the US. Neither the wife or husband are diplomats as such, the husband is a spy and has the courtesy of immunity extended to him,and by extension his wife. Fleeing from the scene of a crime with the public connivance of the American embassy simply brings both America and her embassy into widespread public disrepute. Morally the offender is totally in the wrong by using diplomatic immunity to flee a crime, as is the US for aiding and abetting. The person was responsible for a death. A UK court needs to make a determination as to circumstances, liability and punishment(if found guilty)

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 06:43 AM

'pole dancer shagger'

now that's what i call a floorspot...

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 07:34 AM

Wrong thread Al! ;-). :-)

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 07:57 AM

It's easy to tell when the albino greased piglet is lying.

His lips move

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Charmion
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:22 AM

A notorious Canadian case provides a useful precedent: Russian drink-driving diplomat goes on trial in Moscow and Russian drink-driving diplomat convicted of involuntary manslaughter

At the time of the incident, the Ottawa police could do nothing to collect evidence against the accused -- even take a breathalyzer test -- because he invoked diplomatic immunity. Fortunately, the then Russian government wished to retain a working relationship with Canada, so the accused was dismissed from the diplomatic service, charged under Russian law, tried, and convicted.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mossback
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 03:06 PM

UN-fortunately, Trumpistan (Formerly the U.S. of A.) has no wish to retain a working relationship with any one or any thing.

Watch This Space...

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 05:49 PM

Didn't think she was drunk, just driving on the right side of the road for pretty much the whole world. Why on Earth does the UK still drive on the wrong side of the road? They must expect these accidents. I went the wrong way around roundabouts when in Ireland, luckily/ skillfully didn't hit anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 07:18 PM

Australia, the Caribbean, India, South Africa, Japan and the UK drive on the left. That's almost half the world. So, as we were all here before you, why do YOU drive on the right, arsehole?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:41 PM

How in the world did that handful of countries, most if not all colonized by the Brits, become half the world?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 02:47 AM

Well of course Mrrzy, for the many hundreds of millions of inhabitants of the countries that Steve mentioned, the left is the ‘right’ side of the road. When we travel overseas, we have to drive according to the rules of the country(ies) we visit, and we have to drive on the right. It’s no different to an American having to drive on the left here, and we just accept it as a minor problem to get accustomed to.

But the issue in this case isn’t so much that the woman got confused and drove on the ‘wrong’ side of the road, is it? It’s that, having done that, and having caused the death of a young man who was driving on the correct side of the road, and having promised the police that she would not claim diplomatic immunity and remain here, she did the cowardly, dishonest thing, claimed DI, and fled back to the US in order to evade prosecution, All this in the knowledge that the US never accedes to requests for the extradition of a US citizen to face criminal charges abroad.

Can you imagine Trump’s reaction if the situation was reversed?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 04:32 AM

The population of India alone out of my list is 1.4 billion, and do pray tell me when Japan (a titchy 127 million) was "colonised by the Brits." Keep digging why don't you...

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 04:37 AM

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/countries-that-drive-on-the-left/

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 06:06 AM

Dave Hanson: Cos she's an absolute cunt, end of.

Dave H

Not necessarily. My understanding is that her initial reaction was that yes, she'd "stay and face the music" but she was pressured (basically ordered) by the US State Dept to leave, presumably to try and minimise media interest (as her husband is in the intelligence service).

It's backfired "bigly" . If she'd stayed, local media would have picked it up but it would probably not have gone national/ international. Since it was a genuine mistake she would probably have been charged with Dangerous Driving and got a large fine/ suspended sentence and maybe a driving ban.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 06:33 AM

"...just driving on the right side of the road for pretty much the whole world. Why on Earth does the UK still drive on the wrong side of the road?"

So 35% of the world drives on the left. Take China out of the mix and we have a majority. I forgot Pakistan, Indonesia and Malaysia. That's a lot of "wrong" people. I suppose "whole world" is in the sense of Trump's America First and sod the rest and of your very stupidly-titled "World Series" rounders contest.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 06:43 AM

Whilst I’m in complete agreement with you Steve, I think it’s only fair to point out that the ‘World Series’ doesn’t infer a world-wide competition (in the way it does with the football ‘Copa Mundial’, the World Cup) - it refers, if my information can be relied upon, to The World newspaper, which was the original sponsor of the competition.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 06:44 AM

Mo':

From Country Life magazine:

"The Americans, of course, drive on the right. Initially, when it was a British colony, the inhabitants drove on the left, but following their rebellion in 1776, they forswore all practices they associated with their colonial masters. Of course, the influx of settlers from European countries who had been subjected to the dread influence of the French also helped." [The "dread influence" was that of Napoleon, who enshrined driving on the right in much of Europe).

So yanks drive on the right because their forebears were just peevish. Though it should be said that the change didn't happen all in one go.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 06:50 AM

It's still a stupid title, John. At least the footie World Cup involves teams from all over the actual world. Had I sent my school rounders team over the pond to join in the yanks would never have let them! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 06:52 AM

And your information is wrong in any case.

"The real reason behind the name is thanks to Barney Dreyfuss who was the owner of the Pittsburgh Pirates. In 1903, he wrote to the owner of the Boston Red Sox challenging them to a ‘World’s Championship Series’. The Pirates were the best team in the National League and the Red Sox were the best in the American League.

The games went ahead and Boston won the series five games to three. Over time, the 'World’s Championship Series' name has been shortened to the World Series and has been played every year apart from 1904 and 1994."

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 06:53 AM

https://time.com/5696300/diplomatic-immunity-harry-dunn/

You have to admit that if the US hoped the case would remain under the radar it has backfired in a spectacular fashion

In 1974, police reported that a car driven by an attache at the Panamian Embassy ran a red light and collided with a car in which Dr. Halla Brown, a professor at George Washington University Medical School, was a passenger. Brown was paralyzed for life. The attache, uninsured, couldn't be compelled to pay damages. Some congressmen threatened to cut off aid to Panama, and eventually its government paid $100,000 toward Brown's medical expenses.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 07:02 AM

Right, BWM, the New York World, a now defunct newspaper, was the original sponsor of the Fall Classical and, btw, congratulations to the Nats for closing out the mighty Dodgers with a glorious come from behind victory last night.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mossback
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 09:17 AM

I hate to say I told you so(09 Oct 19 - 03:06 PM), but I told you so:

Briefing notes for a press conference on Wednesday told the president: “(If raised) Note, as Secretary Pompeo [the US secretary of state, Mike Pompeo] told Raab [the UK foreign secretary, Dominic Raab], that the spouse of the US government employee will not return to the United Kingdom.”"

And then (Thread Drift Alert) President Incredible Colossal Dumbfuck went on to explain:

Trump defended his decision to withdraw US troops from Syria and enable a Turkish offensive against US-backed Kurdish fighters in the region by noting that the Kurds “didn’t help us in the second world war, they didn’t help us with Normandy as an example –

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 09:38 AM

Trump defended his decision to withdraw US troops from Syria and enable a Turkish offensive against US-backed Kurdish fighters in the region by noting that the Kurds “didn’t help us in the second world war, they didn’t help us with Normandy as an example –

Not in Normandy, no, but they did form part of the allied OOB in the middle east, as "The Iraq Levies":

By 1942, the Iraq Levies consisted of a Headquarters, a Depot, Specialist Assyrian companies, 40 service companies and the 1st Parachute Company, which consisted of 75% Assyrian and 25% Kurd.

By 1943 the Iraq Levies' strength stood at 166 British officers controlling 44 companies: 22 Assyrian; five mixed Assyrian/Yazidi; 10 Kurdish; 4 Marsh Arabs and 3 Baluchi. Eleven Assyrian companies served in Palestine and another 4 served in Cyprus. The Parachute Company was attached to the Royal Marines Commando.

But they weren't on Omaha Beach, so I guess it doesn't count!

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 10:36 AM

It looks like Steve had it right, I'd always bought into the New York World explanation but I'll blame my other gaffe, "Fall Classical" on my Kindle.

And thanks for that post, Rob Naylor.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 11:00 AM

Well bugger me backwards! Another long-held illusion shattered!

https://www.rulesofsport.com/faq/why-is-the-world-series-called-the-world-series-if-only-american-teams-play.html

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 11:32 PM

Is it the case that the embassy got her out under their orders rather than her request?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 01:49 AM

Well if so, Mrrzy, that makes it even worse - again I ask, can you imagine the Tweetstorm from Herr Drumpf if the situation was reversed, and an American teenager was killed by a British diplomat’s wife driving dangerously on the wrong side of the road, and who was then whisked away back to the UK in order to avoid responsibility?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 11:02 AM

It has been suggested the American ambassador should be declared persona non grata unless the diplomatic immunity to the CIA spy's wife is revoked. The accident is the third   caused by personnel from US military installations driving on the wrong side of the road.
"Houston. You have a problem"

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 11:43 AM

You keep saying spy as if that mattered. The hubby's position is irrelevant to the wife's driving and to the state dept's decision to whisk her away. She killed someone accidentally, they used her immunity; that's what immunity is for. Or do you think that her hubby's job made her murder that poor kid? If not, why keep bringing up irrelevancies? The issue is the *existence* of immunity, not the fact that it was appropriately applied. Other countries protect their dips in the US and Europe and all over the world. That's what it's for.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 01:23 PM

Mrrzy, under UK law, anyone who drives on the wrong side of the road and kills another driver coming the other way on the correct side of the road is guilty of the criminal offence of ‘Causing Death by Dangerous Driving’.

DI exists to prevent the wrongful prosecution and/or persecution of Diplomatic personnel and their families, and as a deterrent to them being detained as hostages. It does not, or should not exist to enable those people to engage in criminal activity and avoid responsibility for their criminality.

If I drove on the wrong side of the road in the US and killed a US citizen, I would be prosecuted under US law - absolutely rightfully. If you drove on the wrong side of the road in the UK and killed a UK citizen, you would be prosecuted under UK law - absolutely rightfully.

Why should this woman be able to evade responsibility for her criminal activity - which you and I would, under similar circumstances, be subject to prosecution over - simply because her husband works for the US government?

THAT is the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 03:21 PM

The issue is not simply cutting and running but the US abusing an agreement extending diplomatic immunity to spies and their dependents under SOFAS agreements. This is not diplomatic immunity sensu stricto.
The United States has been party to multilateral and bilateral agreements addressing the status of U.S. armed forces while present in a foreign country. These agreements, commonly referred to as Status of Forces Agreements (SOFAs), generally establish the framework under which U.S. military personnel operate in a foreign country, addressing how the domestic laws of the foreign jurisdiction shall be applied toward U.S. personnel while in that country.
Under similar circumstances the US has a history of leaning on countries to revoke diplomatic immunity in order to bring charges.

In the vernaciular you (the US)are taking the piss, and I do not like it.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 03:35 PM

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/its-wrong-%E2%80%93-widow-blasts-us-troops-impunity-coroner-rules-captains-death

Who in their right mind uses a forklift instead of a flatbed to move a shipping container 3km ?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 03:36 PM

”You keep saying spy as if that mattered.”

Errrrrrrmmm...no! I haven’t referred to anyone as a ‘spy’. I don’t see where ”anyone on this thread has referred to anyone as a ‘spy’. The only reference I notice is from Steve, where he says that he’s read that the husband is ‘not a registered diplomat’. That’s very different to saying that he’s a ‘spy’.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 03:45 PM

There seems to be a lot of victim-blaming by Americans going on - both from Drumpf in respect of the Sacoolas case, and the soldiers in the case Iains linked to above.

Yet again I ask, what would be the reaction of Americans - especially Herr Führer Drumpf - if the circumstances were reversed, and Americans had been killed by British citizens in the US, who were then whisked away home in secret in order to avoid responsibility for their own fatal stupidity?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Gurney
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 01:09 AM

Steve Shaw has it right up there. I used to wonder, as a child, why America drove on the right when in all their films, their stagecoaches drove on the left. It was explained to me that everyone drove on the left in those days so that the driver could swing his whip right-handed.
Then there was that Napoleon bloke who took over most of Europe and ordered that everyone did everything to his way of thinking.
I wonder if HE was left-handed?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Iains
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 03:43 AM

Background for those that are inquisitive:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/anne-sacoolas-american-diplomat-wife-fled-england-after-killing-19-year-old-harry-dunn-with-her-ca

Diplomat or convenient cover?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Monique
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 04:05 AM

Iains' link.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 08:29 AM

Shame on the USA for denying justice to the English family bereaved by this woman, it's a disgrace to democracy.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 08:34 AM

How many times have US Forces opened fire and killed friendly forces because of their gung ho attitude, and the USA defends them and denies justice ? It's time the rest of the world gave good old Uncle Sam the same respect.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 11:12 AM

Search for Spy. More than one mention.

You are a dip in US who commits a crime, your embassy can get you out. That is immunity.

That's why the issue is immunity, not that it was applied here.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 12:20 PM

A very interesting article here claiming complicity on the part of the UK’s own FCO, raising the issues of who, in fact, was driving the car, the fact that Mr. Sacoolas is not a diplomat within the meaning defined in the Vienna Convention, his role in assisting GCHQ to spy on British citizens’ communications, and asking important questions about this whole sordid, outrageous business.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 10:01 AM

Spy, again.

After the Tehran embassy takeover, we all got dip passports so that people (terrorists) couldn't tell who the CIA employees were.

That did not give us all diplomatic immunity except coming into the country, when our bags could not be searched. Has something illegal been seen, customs could not have done anything about it, even though we were not actually diplomatic. Again, that is how immunity works.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 10:17 AM

Ooh https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/10/13/uk/harry-dunn-immunity-intl-gbr-scli/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F

Immunity now irrelevant says UK because she fled.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 01:20 PM

The parents of the dead boy are awaiting a meeting with the culprit
She appears to have agreed to meet them (with her lawyer present), but I don't think anything has happened yet
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 04:04 AM

The BBC reported that:

not only did the UK gov point out that being in America means she has no immunity now, the American gov confirmed the situation.

Which would suggest extradition was the route, though it looks like the family of the dead lad are looking into using the American courts.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 10:37 AM

Try her in abstensia.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 11:30 AM

Not satisfactory, Mrrzy.

Justice should be seen to be done (R v Sussex Justices, ex parte McCarthy ([1924] 1 KB 256, [1923] - impossible whilst the accused is skulking in another country and refusing to face her accusers.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 04:55 PM

Yeah... But no US court has jurisdiction. It's not as if she killed him *in* the embassy, which is technically DC.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 06:12 PM

Precisely. She should be returned to the UK to be tried under UK Law.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 03:48 AM

Why does diplomatic immunity even exist? I'd rather my dips behave themselves...

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 03:54 AM

Bingo! Right on the button!

In fairness, it exists in order to prevent individuals on diplomatic service and their families from being persecuted by less-than-friendly countries in which they have to serve - an example being where they could be arrested on trumped-up charges...effectively taken as hostages.

But my understanding is that DI does not absolve them from their responsibility to behave within the laws of the host country.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 05:16 AM

Trumped-up charges aahahahaha sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 05:53 AM

Interesting piece in the guardian some days ago:
Mark Stephens, an acknowledged legal expert on diplomatic immunity law, challenged whether Jonathan Sacoolas enjoyed full immunity under the Vienna convention, saying he had not been registered as such with the Foreign Office.

He suggested Sacoolas and his dependents instead only had more limited immunity under the Visiting Forces Act, and its derivative bilateral orders that provide immunity to personnel on specific UK bases. That immunity, according to Crown Prosecution Service guidance, is restricted to specific offences that “arose out of and in the course of the service person’s duties as a member of the visiting force including whether the act occurred in the course of the individual’s professional duties”.

The US air force has in the past, according to the CPS, interpreted professional duties to include driving from an air base to a home address. The Sacoolas family was reportedly living on the base, which would mean they could not claim that defence.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 06:08 AM

”Trumped-up charges aahahahaha sorry.”

And I apologise for the weak pun - it seemed funny at the time! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 01:25 PM

Did you hear that the parents are in the US and got invited/summoned to the white house, where unbeknownst to them the driver was already there? Crass doesn't begin to cover it.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/anne-sacoolas-grieving-parents-ambushed-by-trump-who-was-hiding-spy-wife-at-the-white-house?ref=scroll

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mossback
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 02:17 PM

Yep, just goes to show what an absolute piece of shit Trump is.

Not content with perverting the course of justice by sequestering the perpetrator, he now attempts to use this tragedy to produce a photo-op/campaign rally spot.

Impeachment can't come too soon - get this goddamn son of a bitch NOW.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: gillymor
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 06:03 AM

Of all the shabby things the dickwad has done that attempt at a Reality TV Show moment with those grief-stricken parents ranks up there with the shabbiest.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 06:55 AM

All done at the instigation of Boris, If the media are to be believed!

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 07:28 AM

Don't you mean if Trump is to believed?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 07:31 AM

Today Congress will have a vote to overturn
a Trump order to reverse Obama's clean air and water regs.
Another crack in the dam for the vile Frump administration.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 07:55 AM

Money, money money
Must be funny
In a rich man’s world....

<©> B. Ulvæus/B. Andersson

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 07:56 AM

Money, money money
Must be funny
In a rich man’s world....

© B. Ulvæus/B. Andersson

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 09:14 PM

We should rethink diplomatic immunity. I works well in cases of cultural confusion or misunderstanding but in cases of murder or manslaughter I feel there is a universality of understanding the need for respondsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 09:27 PM

If the woman had remained in the UK and faced the consequences of her actions, it’s highly unlikely she would have been charged with murder or manslaughter. She would possibly have been subject to the lesser charge of ‘Causing Death by Dangerous Driving’.

But, as it seems not to be politically expedient so far as your President and our Prime Minister are concerned, it seems unlikely we will ever know.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 06:22 PM

I haven't followed this story but just came across the Daily Beast link on a friend's page. It's so absurd that this happened in the way it did - yet another reason why the idiot in the White House needs to be removed ASAP. Who on earth thought that ambush was a good idea?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 01:44 AM

”It's so absurd that this happened in the way it did - yet another reason why the idiot in the White House needs to be removed ASAP”

Completely agree, along with the idiot in 10, Downing Street, SRS.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 01:24 PM

US national Anne Sacoolas is to face magistrates in the UK charged with causing the death of motorcyclist Harry Dunn by dangerous driving.

Mr Dunn, 19, died when his motorbike was in a crash with a car near RAF Croughton, Northamptonshire, on 27 August, 2019.

The case would be heard at Westminster Magistrates' Court on 18 January, the Crown Prosecution Service said.

It is understood Mrs Sacoolas, 44, will appear by video link from the US.

Mr Dunn's mother, Charlotte Charles, said: "My family and I are feeling very emotional and overwhelmed, having just learned the news that Mrs Sacoolas is now to face our justice system.

"It is all that we asked for following Harry's death."

Mrs Sacoolas had diplomatic immunity asserted on her behalf by the US government following the collision, and was able to leave the UK after the incident.

In December 2020, the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) authorised Northamptonshire Police to charge Mrs Sacoolas with causing death by dangerous driving.

An extradition request for her to be brought to the UK was rejected by the US government.

A CPS spokesman said: "While the challenges and complexity of this case are well known, we remain committed to securing justice in this matter.

"Anne Sacoolas has a right to a fair trial. It is extremely important there should be no reporting, commentary or sharing of information online which could in any way prejudice any proceedings."

BBC

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 05:12 PM

Ah seems that the BBC article has been updated.

"Her lawyers denied reports the 44-year-old would attend via video link and said no such agreement had been made."

And

"Foreign Secretary Liz Truss tweeted: "Welcome news that Anne Sacoolas will face a UK court. We continue to support the family to get justice for Harry Dunn.""

And

"In a statement, US law firm Arnold & Porter told the BBC: "While we have always been willing to discuss a virtual hearing, there is no agreement at this time."

The CPS declined to comment on the law firm's response."

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 08:07 PM

As an Embassy brat my take is that the vid link, while seemingly a compromise leaving each side unhappy and so a good one, is kinda moot. I mean, if she has immunity, she has immunity, so no trial, which is horrible for the poor biker's family. But if no immunity, she should go back and face the music, and should not have been flown out in the first place. So, no video.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 21 - 04:29 PM

So let's ask ourselves two questions, Mrrzy. First, should the *spouse* of a diplomat, going out and about fancy-free in a country not their own, be entitled to the same immunity as their hubby? Second, do you believe in the incredibly simple concept of natural justice, as opposed to justice stymied by peculiar and anachronistic "rules of diplomacy?"

This woman, driving on the wrong side of the road, killed a young man who was abiding by our rules of the road. How hard is it for you to see that she must be brought to justice? After all, the US is hardly the Soviet Union, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Thompson
Date: 14 Dec 21 - 06:02 PM

To bring a little sideways action into this question, I'd be deeply cynical about the idea of any allegedly dangerous driver in any country in which the motor industry has its reverent acolytes being "brought to justice" in any real sense. It is the norm that drivers who kill get a slap on the wrist - a fine and a little lecture from the judge, who may even add words such as "We all get irritated with cyclists at times" or "It is terrible for the driver to have to live with this for the rest of his life". At the very worst, a driver may - horrors! - be deprived of the licence to drive for a few months; never for longer, because it would be too horrifying a punishment to be deprived of the "right" to drive.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Allan Conn
Date: 14 Dec 21 - 06:56 PM

Diplomatic immunity was surely a concept created for reasons which do not include causing the death of innocent young people in a friendly country? Or any country for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 21 - 08:14 PM

When I say "brought to justice" I don't mean hanged, drawn and quartered. I mean held to account in our justice system. This alleged offence occurred in the UK. This person, in the interest of justice, should be brought to account in this country and should be fully subject to the sanctions, if convicted, afforded by our legal system. The offence is causing death by dangerous driving. The sanction, according to circumstances, can be around ten years in prison. "A fine and slap on the wrist" would be a highly unlikely outcome in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: G-Force
Date: 15 Dec 21 - 05:38 AM

By my reckoning, I have driven in at least 9 countries other than the one I actually live in (UK). I would hate to think that by failing to observe some local rule of the road, which I may have momentarily forgotten or not even known about, I might have caused an accident.

In the case of Mrs. Sacoulas it would be interesting to know, for example, whether the car she was driving was left- or right-hand drive.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 21 - 05:44 AM

The substantive point is that she was on the wrong side of the road.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Dec 21 - 10:22 AM

That occurred during a different administration, under a corrupt Secretary of State. The current one probably doesn't have any sway over past administrations.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Thompson
Date: 18 Dec 21 - 04:49 AM

Oh, Steve, Steve, you're so naive! A quick search for "UK driver kills motorcyclist" brings up a few… the minimal disqualification from driving normally starts at the end of the jail sentence, if there is a sentence:

Usman Mohammed Farooq drove his car across the path of biker Martin Barker on Uttoxeter Road, Draycott, in January 2019 and killed him. He was sentenced to two years in prison (with a two-year ban from driving).
Dumitru Radu failed a breathalyser test at the scene of the collision that killed motorcyclist Colin Lazenbury, 54, in Bournemouth on 26 May 2019. He was jailed at Salisbury Crown Court for five-and-a-half years (and disqualified from driving for three years).
Lucian-Sorin Todor, 52, collided with Jack Burgess, 22, having crossed double white lines to overtake a cyclist near Petersfield, Hampshire, in June 2019. Todor pulled over briefly but did not stop his 46 minute-long hands-free phone call and continued it for 30 minutes after he had driven away. He was sentenced to eight years in prison and disqualified from driving for five years and four months.
A van driver who hit and killed a motorcyclist after going through a red light had previously crashed into a schoolboy who died while crossing the road. Kurt Sammon, 54, collided with 13-year-old Michael Weaver in 2004, as the youngster crossed. He was later jailed for six months, after prosecutors dropped a charge of causing death by dangerous driving. Then 15 years later, Sammon killed a motorcyclist when he went through a red light and hit 30-year-old Louis McGovern, the Manchester Evening News reports. Prosecutor Rob Hall said Sammon had one of the 'worst driving records I've ever seen'. He was locked up for seven years and banned from the roads for 13-and-a-half years.
A 20-year-old who killed a motorcyclist after his car drifted to the wrong side of the road has been spared jail because of his age. Brooke Thomas Watney said he was 'distracted' when his smart car collided with 63-year-old Clive Kingsley on February 15, 2017. Watney was sentenced to eight months in prison, suspended for 18 months. (This means he won't go to jail if he's not convicted of any other offence in the following 18 months.) He was also disqualified from driving for two years, ordered to do 160 hours of unpaid work and pay prosecution costs of £500.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 21 - 05:33 AM

In what sense have I been naive?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Thompson
Date: 19 Dec 21 - 03:39 AM

You probably haven't, Steve. These (mostly) got short jail sentences ok, though the furrin names might be part of that. I'm used to looking at sentences for drivers who kill or maim cyclists, rather than motorcyclists, and these drivers tend to be let off virtually scot-free; in fact, at times you have judges saying things on the order of "Everyone finds it hard to see cyclists".

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Rain Dog
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 03:38 AM

Some countries do things differently.

'Miscarriage of justice’: outcry after Colorado trucker given 110 years

'Miscarriage of justice’: outcry after Colorado trucker given 110 years for fatal accident

Rogel Aguilera-Mederos was convicted of vehicular homicide and received a lengthy sentence that sparked calls for leniency

The case of a young Colorado truck driver sentenced to 110 years in prison over his role in a fatal collision has prompted widespread calls for leniency and fueled criticism of the US justice system.

On Tuesday, the Colorado district attorney whose office prosecuted the case asked the court to reconsider the sentence of Rogel Aguilera-Mederos, 26, following the backlash over a punishment that’s been called unduly harsh.

Aguilera-Mederos was convicted in October of vehicular homicide and other charges related to a deadly crash in April 2019, which occurred while he was hauling lumber in the Rocky Mountain foothills. He has said he was descending a steep portion of the highway when the brakes on his semi-trailer failed, leading to a multi-vehicle pileup and four deaths.

The judge in the case has said he was obligated to give Aguilera-Mederos the lengthy sentence based on minimum sentencing laws for the charges, prompting further criticism of the criminal justice system. .

More than 4.5 million people have signed a petition calling for Colorado’s governor, Jared Polis, to grant clemency to Aguilera-Mederos or commute his sentence. Meanwhile, truckers and civil rights groups have expressed outrage over the sentence.

“It is a stark miscarriage of justice,” said Domingo Garcia, the president of the League of United Latin American Citizens (Lulac). “Here’s a man with no prior criminal record who went to work to feed his family. The brakes go out on his truck. It was a terrible accident. He’s given 110 years for the first crime he’s ever committed, a crime that was not intentional.”

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 11:01 AM

"Everyone finds it hard to see cyclists".

Perhaps it was the two cyclists I saw at the weekend.

The first one, in dark clothes and no lights on a wet winter evening, was cycling diagonally across a main road leading from a busy roundabout - all this while looking at his mobile phone. He continued on his way down the 30 mph road in spite of the fact that there was a segregated cycle track just the other side of the grass verge.

The second, also in dark clothes with no lights, avoided the traffic by cycling past me from behind on the pedestrian only footpath. If there was a bell fitted to the bike, it wasn't used. In this case, the segregated cycle way was on the opposite side of the road. Neither of the cyclists was wearing a helmet.

I am both a car driver and a cyclist. As a cyclist, I take responsibility for my own safety by making myself visible using lights and bright clothing where appropriate and planning my route to minimise the time spent in heavy traffic.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: BobL
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 05:10 AM

There was once a cyclist I didn't see in time. I was driving in town on a wet December night and had stopped in a queue of traffic, which a cyclist overtook. When I moved off, he was almost alongside me and a little bit too close.

I can't say he wasn't showing lights, in fact the front of the cycle was festooned in them, of all colours - white, red, green, amber - the lot. Normally he would have been well visible, but at this time of year his display formed a perfect camouflage against the background of Xmas shop windows. So despite checking my mirror before I moved - and I did check - I didn't see him and almost knocked him over. Fortunately, only almost.

Sorry, I drift.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 08:11 AM

Same here, Doug. I always make sure that I SHOULD be visible when cycling. Not that that makes a difference to some drivers :-(

I almost went on to a roundabout that a cyclist in dark clothing and no lights was going round in the wrong lane yesterday! Luckily I did just spot a blur of movement before I entered the RB and avoided him.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Thompson
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 11:06 AM

But you did see them, Doug.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 12:03 PM

I was walking, not driving a car and having to concentrate on all the other traffic.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Dec 21 - 01:14 AM

Two factors are highly protective for cyclists: a low speed limit - around 30km/h is the sweet spot, but it has to be throughout a city or the drivers ignore it; and growing numbers of cyclists.
The 30km/h speed limit works well because it stops drivers dashing frantically to the next traffic lights.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Rain Dog
Date: 25 Dec 21 - 03:26 AM

"The 30km/h speed limit works well because it stops drivers dashing frantically to the next traffic lights."

That did make me smile.

I have not owned a car for over 20 years now. 20 m/h would be a good idea in towns here in the UK, as long as it was enforced. Unfortunately speed limits are not enforced often enough in the UK. There is also a growing trend to ignore red lights too.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Rain Dog
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 05:30 AM

Some sense at last.

Colorado trucker’s 110-year sentence reduced to 10 years after outcry

"The governor commuted Rogel Aguilera-Mederos’s sentence and the 26-year-old will be eligible for parole in five years."


Of course someone should look at reforming the minimum sentencing laws.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Rain Dog
Date: 29 Aug 22 - 05:25 AM

From the BBC

Bikers mark third anniversary of Harry Dunn's death

"A band of bikers have held a "rev-off" in memory of a teenager who died in a crash outside US military base on the third anniversary of his death.

Harry Dunn, 19, was killed near RAF Croughton, Northamptonshire, in 2019, when it is alleged a car driven by Anne Sacoolas hit his motorbike.

The US national later left the country, claiming diplomatic immunity.

Riders who gathered outside the US Embassy in London were told "Harry will not be forgotten".

Mr Dunn's death on 27 August sparked a transatlantic diplomatic row.

It is alleged Ms Sacoolas's car struck his motorbike just after she left the base. It has been said the car was driving on the right side of the road when it should have been on the left under the UK's Highway Code.

She had diplomatic immunity asserted on her behalf by the US administration following the crash, because her husband Jonathan worked for a US intelligence agency at the base. They then both left the UK.

Ms Sacoolas is yet to face a criminal court. She was due to appear at Westminster Magistrates' Court in January, but days before her appearance, the Crown Prosecution Service said the hearing had been "vacated".

++

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Rain Dog
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 06:08 PM

From the BBC

"The case of a US citizen accused of causing the death of teenage motorcyclist Harry Dunn by dangerous driving will be heard in court on Thursday.

Mr Dunn, 19, died in a collision outside RAF Croughton in Northamptonshire in August 2019.

Anne Sacoolas had diplomatic immunity asserted on her behalf by the US administration and left the UK.

The case against her will be heard at Westminster Magistrates' Court.

The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) made the decision to charge Mrs Sacoolas with the offence in December 2019.

This is the first time the case will have been heard at a British court, following a diplomatic row between the two governments.

It has not been confirmed whether Ms Sacoolas would be required to attend the hearing.

A hearing was originally scheduled for January this year, but it was vacated by the CPS to "enable ongoing discussions".

The Dunn family said they would not be commenting on the case until the conclusion of criminal proceedings."

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Oct 22 - 11:21 AM

From the BBC

Harry Dunn: Anne Sacoolas admits causing crash death

"A US citizen has admitted responsibility for the death of teenage motorcyclist Harry Dunn in a case that caused a diplomatic row between the US and British governments.

Anne Sacoolas, 45, pleaded guilty at the Old Bailey, via videolink, to causing his death by careless driving.

Mr Dunn, 19, died following a crash outside a US military base in Northamptonshire in August 2019.

His mother Charlotte Charles said she had now completed her promise to him.

Judge Mrs Justice Cheema-Grubb said Sacoolas would be sentenced at the end of November.

"I direct that Mrs Sacoolas attends court in person to be sentenced," the judge added.

She was charged with causing death by dangerous driving but the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) accepted her guilty plea to the lesser charge.

Death by careless driving carries a maximum sentence of five years imprisonment but a community punishment or suspended jail sentence is often given.*

Of course it remains to be seen if Sacoolas deigns to attend the court in person for sentencing.